What's the difference b/tw a breaking ball, a curve ball, and a slider?
July 16, 2020 12:56 PM Subscribe
Also, depending on the count, are there certain times when a pitcher would be more or less likely to throw of these pitches instead of a fastball?
Sliders and curve balls are both breaking balls; they don’t travel straight. Of course fastballs, being obedient to the laws of gravity, don’t travel straight either. But they don’t generally move side-to-side as breaking balls do.
Curve balls are slowish and move dramatically side-to-side. Sliders are a little faster, sort of between a curve ball and a fast ball.
If you just throw one fastball after another, the hitter can easily time it and swing where it will cross the plate. Breaking balls throw off the timing and location so the hitter has to adjust.
The reason to have a very fast fastball is that to hit it hitters have to jump on it pretty much as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. If you do that and it turns out to be a breaking ball, you’ll be swinging ahead of it and in the wrong place.
On the other hand, breaking balls are easier to time, because you get that extra fraction of a second to see them coming. Most hitters spot them by the distinctive visual pattern of the red seams spinning.
There is no easy formula for pitch count : pitch selection. It all depends on the mental game between hitter and pitcher.
posted by argybarg at 1:06 PM on July 16, 2020
Curve balls are slowish and move dramatically side-to-side. Sliders are a little faster, sort of between a curve ball and a fast ball.
If you just throw one fastball after another, the hitter can easily time it and swing where it will cross the plate. Breaking balls throw off the timing and location so the hitter has to adjust.
The reason to have a very fast fastball is that to hit it hitters have to jump on it pretty much as it leaves the pitcher’s hand. If you do that and it turns out to be a breaking ball, you’ll be swinging ahead of it and in the wrong place.
On the other hand, breaking balls are easier to time, because you get that extra fraction of a second to see them coming. Most hitters spot them by the distinctive visual pattern of the red seams spinning.
There is no easy formula for pitch count : pitch selection. It all depends on the mental game between hitter and pitcher.
posted by argybarg at 1:06 PM on July 16, 2020
Betelgeuse is also correct that curve balls, being slower than sliders, drop quite a bit up to down.
posted by argybarg at 1:07 PM on July 16, 2020
posted by argybarg at 1:07 PM on July 16, 2020
Years ago I posted this Flash interactive from the NYT as an FPP, and it's still good. It's about Mariano Rivera, but touches on the types of pitches he throws and what that looks like from a batter's perspective.
posted by maxwelton at 2:02 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 2:02 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
As a counter to the earlier notes (and there’s also change ups; both curve balls and change ups are “off-speed pitches”):
Breaking balls, especially curve balls, are harder to throw in a specific location, because they move so much. Curve balls especially they usually target as finishing just below the strike zone (a slow pitch in the middle of the strike zone will be hit very very far). So if the batter has a favorable count, like 3 balls, the pitcher is more likely to throw a fastball to avoid missing the strike zone and walking the batter.
In Ye Olden Days, guys with 4-seam (straight/“rising”) fastballs, like Nolan Ryan, would throw curve balls for more movement and more speed difference. Guys with 2-seam (“sinking”) fastballs would throw sliders, which would be almost as hard as a fastball but wind up somewhere else. I think of Randy Johnson, but also guys who didn’t throw quite as hard as him.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2020
Breaking balls, especially curve balls, are harder to throw in a specific location, because they move so much. Curve balls especially they usually target as finishing just below the strike zone (a slow pitch in the middle of the strike zone will be hit very very far). So if the batter has a favorable count, like 3 balls, the pitcher is more likely to throw a fastball to avoid missing the strike zone and walking the batter.
In Ye Olden Days, guys with 4-seam (straight/“rising”) fastballs, like Nolan Ryan, would throw curve balls for more movement and more speed difference. Guys with 2-seam (“sinking”) fastballs would throw sliders, which would be almost as hard as a fastball but wind up somewhere else. I think of Randy Johnson, but also guys who didn’t throw quite as hard as him.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:12 PM on July 16, 2020
By the way, the way baseball announcers know if it’s a curveball or a slider is by knowing who the pitcher is, and what kinds of pitches he usually throws. (And by reading the catcher signs: 2 is for whichever breaking ball the guy throws.) If they don’t know for sure, they’ll just say “breaking ball”.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:17 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:17 PM on July 16, 2020 [2 favorites]
Change-ups are also relative to the pitcher's fast ball, not specifically to any given speed. So if you're a 100-mph guy, your change-up may be 90; if you're a "soft throwing" 85 mph guy, your change-up might be 70 (these are all speeds us mortals would be very lucky to get a bat on). But they are generally not breaking balls; an ideal change-up looks to the batter just like the pitcher's fastball, but it gets to the plate a few tenths of a second later, which is enough to turn a potential hit into a swing-and-a-miss. But if the batter guesses right on the change, they can go a long way.
The whole idea is to try and fool the batter into thinking there is a rhythm and then making sure there isn't one. Though this can depend on the batter. If your scouting tells you maxwelton cannot hit an inside (close to his hands) fastball to save his life, you're probably going to throw me three straight inside fastballs. But if I'm a versatile hitter, you might throw me something inside to start, and then a slider away, and then...
Pitchers also have to think of the entire game. The opposing batters are generally watching the at-bats. If you, as a pitcher, always threw fastball-slider-fastball-change-up-slider without fail, everyone would know what's coming and wait for the pitch they knew they can hit.
We haven't even talked about genuinely weird pitches like knuckle balls, or the eephus, which I've never seen in a live game but which obviously happen from time-to-time.
posted by maxwelton at 2:50 PM on July 16, 2020
The whole idea is to try and fool the batter into thinking there is a rhythm and then making sure there isn't one. Though this can depend on the batter. If your scouting tells you maxwelton cannot hit an inside (close to his hands) fastball to save his life, you're probably going to throw me three straight inside fastballs. But if I'm a versatile hitter, you might throw me something inside to start, and then a slider away, and then...
Pitchers also have to think of the entire game. The opposing batters are generally watching the at-bats. If you, as a pitcher, always threw fastball-slider-fastball-change-up-slider without fail, everyone would know what's coming and wait for the pitch they knew they can hit.
We haven't even talked about genuinely weird pitches like knuckle balls, or the eephus, which I've never seen in a live game but which obviously happen from time-to-time.
posted by maxwelton at 2:50 PM on July 16, 2020
Another factor that impacts pitch selection is platoon advantage. A pitcher has the advantage when both the pitcher and the batter are right-handed (or if both are left-handed). The batter has the advantage when the two differ. Pitchers tend to throw more sliders and curves and fewer change-ups, when they have the platoon advantage
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 5:01 PM on July 16, 2020
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 5:01 PM on July 16, 2020
Most pitchers have more control over their fastball than their breaking pitches or change-up. This leads to most pitchers leaning toward their fastball and away from breaking pitches when behind in the count. However, if a pitcher has excellent control over their breaking pitches they will be more likely to throw them in situations where they "need a strike". This is also dependent on the score, how many outs there are, how many runners are on base, who the next batter due up is, etc...
Some pitchers are perfectly happy to walk a batter with nobody on base and two outs to get to an lesser hitter or to restart the count.
Baseball is complicated. That's what makes it great!
posted by soy_renfield at 10:32 AM on July 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
Some pitchers are perfectly happy to walk a batter with nobody on base and two outs to get to an lesser hitter or to restart the count.
Baseball is complicated. That's what makes it great!
posted by soy_renfield at 10:32 AM on July 22, 2020 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Sometimes, pitchers tend to thrown breaking balls when they are more ahead in the count and, therefore, don't "need a strike" and can try to get the hitter to "chase" a pitch out of the strike zone.
posted by Betelgeuse at 1:03 PM on July 16, 2020 [7 favorites]