Is a Master's from the London School of Economics worth it?
May 26, 2020 11:38 AM Subscribe
Hi. I am keen on doing a master's in political science in the next year and a half or two, and I am wondering how is the London School of Economics reputation received in Canada and the US? Is it worth going to LSE for a year or two for a master's degree? Or even a PhD? McGill or UWaterloo are definitely my dream schools for Poli Sci).
Would it make a difference if I received an MA in Canada vs LSE in Political Science? I also noticed a lot of LSE's master's are MSc and not MA for some reason -- so I am not sure if all of their MSc degrees require some advanced maths and statistics. I was thinking of LSE's MSc in Comparative Politics, chiefly because I am fascinated with cultures and cultural/comparative politics and law (but also find all aspects of Poli Sci fascinating as well as law too). Honestly - I am not sure. I have read that some people who attended LSE had difficulty finding an internship or even a career position because there is no internship or co-op with it - but there are research assistant opportunities. Yet, the thought of TA-ing is something I would like to do, which would be offered in Canada for MA's for certain.
Would it make a difference if I received an MA in Canada vs LSE in Political Science? I also noticed a lot of LSE's master's are MSc and not MA for some reason -- so I am not sure if all of their MSc degrees require some advanced maths and statistics. I was thinking of LSE's MSc in Comparative Politics, chiefly because I am fascinated with cultures and cultural/comparative politics and law (but also find all aspects of Poli Sci fascinating as well as law too). Honestly - I am not sure. I have read that some people who attended LSE had difficulty finding an internship or even a career position because there is no internship or co-op with it - but there are research assistant opportunities. Yet, the thought of TA-ing is something I would like to do, which would be offered in Canada for MA's for certain.
Having read your long history of questions in this vein, I sincerely recommend that you think about the kind of role you want to end up in and try to arrange some informational interviews with people who actually do those roles now. Because what you need to know is specific to particular policy areas, government departments vs industry/ngo, etc.
I will say this, though: the easiest way to get hired into the Canadian federal public service is to have interned here while you were in school.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:56 AM on May 26, 2020 [28 favorites]
I will say this, though: the easiest way to get hired into the Canadian federal public service is to have interned here while you were in school.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:56 AM on May 26, 2020 [28 favorites]
One of my friends in law school got an MA in some sort of polisci program from LSE. It didn't seem to open up any tremendous opportunities for her, considering the jobs she did after the program and before law school (and after law school as well). A terminal polisci MA is not the most useful credential, if it's not done in as part of some very specific career progression.
Before starting any graduate degree, you should be able to say "I want to do this program because I can't do X until I complete that program or one very much like it, and after completing this program, most graduates can do X or something comparable." Otherwise, it's pretty risky, you can wind up two-years older and poorer without a career boost that would be worth it. You might end up intellectually enriched as well, but that's generally not a good reason to get a terminal masters degree anywhere. You want to avoid getting what amounts to a vanity degree, something that sounds fancy, impresses others, but doesn't get you a job. I say that in the gentlest way possible, as someone who spent years thinking about grad school programs that in retrospect I realize would have been gigantic wastes of time and money, but would have given me only the slightest boost to my career prospects had I completed them.
I do think that LSE sounds swanky as heck to most americans, though.
posted by skewed at 12:01 PM on May 26, 2020 [16 favorites]
Before starting any graduate degree, you should be able to say "I want to do this program because I can't do X until I complete that program or one very much like it, and after completing this program, most graduates can do X or something comparable." Otherwise, it's pretty risky, you can wind up two-years older and poorer without a career boost that would be worth it. You might end up intellectually enriched as well, but that's generally not a good reason to get a terminal masters degree anywhere. You want to avoid getting what amounts to a vanity degree, something that sounds fancy, impresses others, but doesn't get you a job. I say that in the gentlest way possible, as someone who spent years thinking about grad school programs that in retrospect I realize would have been gigantic wastes of time and money, but would have given me only the slightest boost to my career prospects had I completed them.
I do think that LSE sounds swanky as heck to most americans, though.
posted by skewed at 12:01 PM on May 26, 2020 [16 favorites]
About a dozen friends/acquaintances of varying nationalities from my grad cohort did a dual degree with the LSE to obtain an MSc in our field. Their reactions were pretty uniform:
The good: they liked the instructors, the facilities were great, and they adored London; certain programs give automatic membership in various Royal societies for the relevant profession, which is way cool obviously.
The less-satisfying: unless a student already had serious connections or an extremely niche career in mind (for which they had already been preparing in undergrad), the qualification *on its own* did not generally open many doors in or outside the UK in terms of interning or jobs. A few of those folks frankly are still trying to break in to their chosen field after 5 years. (This was true of the British students in that group also.) For the people able to get their dream jobs right out of the gate, they did so because *for their employers* (not saying anything at all about the actual intellectual value of the degree), having the LSE on their résumé was more confirmation of membership in a certain socioeconomic class for which they were already selecting, rather than an objective indication of intellectual achievement independent of the person's wider background. That is to say, it's necessary for those kinds of jobs but not sufficient.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth it for you! The real advantage of "fancy" schools is the networking opportunities they present. You can meet people there you'd never encounter otherwise, and if you know how to build and draw on those connections it can really take you places.
Ultimately I'd say do the LSE if you have a very specific idea of what you'll do with the degree and how; also definitely see if you can get in touch with alumni in your field to get their perspective.
posted by peakes at 12:25 PM on May 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
The good: they liked the instructors, the facilities were great, and they adored London; certain programs give automatic membership in various Royal societies for the relevant profession, which is way cool obviously.
The less-satisfying: unless a student already had serious connections or an extremely niche career in mind (for which they had already been preparing in undergrad), the qualification *on its own* did not generally open many doors in or outside the UK in terms of interning or jobs. A few of those folks frankly are still trying to break in to their chosen field after 5 years. (This was true of the British students in that group also.) For the people able to get their dream jobs right out of the gate, they did so because *for their employers* (not saying anything at all about the actual intellectual value of the degree), having the LSE on their résumé was more confirmation of membership in a certain socioeconomic class for which they were already selecting, rather than an objective indication of intellectual achievement independent of the person's wider background. That is to say, it's necessary for those kinds of jobs but not sufficient.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth it for you! The real advantage of "fancy" schools is the networking opportunities they present. You can meet people there you'd never encounter otherwise, and if you know how to build and draw on those connections it can really take you places.
Ultimately I'd say do the LSE if you have a very specific idea of what you'll do with the degree and how; also definitely see if you can get in touch with alumni in your field to get their perspective.
posted by peakes at 12:25 PM on May 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
Oh I forgot the part of your question about MSc and advanced maths: not for the program my friends did. There was I believe a stats course which they described as maybe 199- or easy 200-level, but that's about the size of it. This probably varies hugely by program though.
posted by peakes at 12:27 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by peakes at 12:27 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
peakes' answer jibes with the experience my best friend's daughter had. She's American, has a Bachelor's from GWU, was interested in international relations, did some work overseas for a couple of NGOs, then when that path did not lead to anything more, she applied to LSE. She loved London, made a lot of great friends, and discovered that an MA from LSE doesn't mean much in the US. She ended up with a gig doing internal recruiting for one of the big banks in NYC, a job which she hates and has no relationship to anything she was interested in.
posted by briank at 1:19 PM on May 26, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by briank at 1:19 PM on May 26, 2020 [5 favorites]
In the US, a masters degree in political science, from anywhere, has only two and a half legitimate purposes.
(1) If you are in one of those career tracks where an MA will result in a salary bump, as are relatively common in government, then an MA in political science is also an MA. It won't really matter whether your MA is from LSE or an Ivy League school or an entirely online program from your local public university.
(2) If for whatever reason you believe your initial applications to PhD programs in political science look weaker than you actually are as a candidate -- maybe your undergraduate school is actively unimpressive, maybe you didn't get your shit together until senior year, any of a billion other reasons -- then getting an MA somewhere can demonstrate that you can do graduate level work. In this setting, it also doesn't matter very much where you get your MA from. When I was working at the University of North Texas, which is a fine program but I think we will agree not well-known like LSE, we had a fair number of MA students like this. One's now tenured at LSU, another's tenured at Colorado. LSE would not offer any advantage over UNT or Buffalo or Kansas.
In the US, an MA from a Canadian school might not be as useful if you're trying to get into mainstream American political science as Canadian polisci programs often do not offer nearly as much quantitative training as American programs do. If you were trying to get into a US PhD program from a Canadian MA, I might look first at Western Ontario, which is known as a more American-like program. Also, Laura Stephenson, Matt Lebo, and Mathieu Turgeon are good folks.
(3) The half category is if you're looking for quantitative training that's nontrivial but less intense than an actual statistics MA/MS. If you're looking to get into market research, etc, social science MAs aren't the worst thing in the world. But in that category, it would be more useful to get that MA by entering a funded PhD program and leaving after comps.
But more broadly, unless one of those categories fits you, there is no reason to get an MA in political science if you plan to live in the US.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:25 PM on May 26, 2020 [11 favorites]
(1) If you are in one of those career tracks where an MA will result in a salary bump, as are relatively common in government, then an MA in political science is also an MA. It won't really matter whether your MA is from LSE or an Ivy League school or an entirely online program from your local public university.
(2) If for whatever reason you believe your initial applications to PhD programs in political science look weaker than you actually are as a candidate -- maybe your undergraduate school is actively unimpressive, maybe you didn't get your shit together until senior year, any of a billion other reasons -- then getting an MA somewhere can demonstrate that you can do graduate level work. In this setting, it also doesn't matter very much where you get your MA from. When I was working at the University of North Texas, which is a fine program but I think we will agree not well-known like LSE, we had a fair number of MA students like this. One's now tenured at LSU, another's tenured at Colorado. LSE would not offer any advantage over UNT or Buffalo or Kansas.
In the US, an MA from a Canadian school might not be as useful if you're trying to get into mainstream American political science as Canadian polisci programs often do not offer nearly as much quantitative training as American programs do. If you were trying to get into a US PhD program from a Canadian MA, I might look first at Western Ontario, which is known as a more American-like program. Also, Laura Stephenson, Matt Lebo, and Mathieu Turgeon are good folks.
(3) The half category is if you're looking for quantitative training that's nontrivial but less intense than an actual statistics MA/MS. If you're looking to get into market research, etc, social science MAs aren't the worst thing in the world. But in that category, it would be more useful to get that MA by entering a funded PhD program and leaving after comps.
But more broadly, unless one of those categories fits you, there is no reason to get an MA in political science if you plan to live in the US.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:25 PM on May 26, 2020 [11 favorites]
Just a note that a MSc or MA in Canada has different connotations than in the US. In Canada it can be a necessary step towards getting a PhD or necessary in it’s own right for jobs.
If you want to work for the Canadian government as your end goal, I’d highly highly recommend going to Carleton of UOttawa and doing a co-op or work experience with the federal government. I’d also suggest working on your French skills.
But overall, yeah, what exactly do you want to do? You seem to have a different very detailed question every week or two. Talking to folks with the job you want might be more useful to you as jaquilynne suggests.
posted by hydrobatidae at 1:36 PM on May 26, 2020 [15 favorites]
If you want to work for the Canadian government as your end goal, I’d highly highly recommend going to Carleton of UOttawa and doing a co-op or work experience with the federal government. I’d also suggest working on your French skills.
But overall, yeah, what exactly do you want to do? You seem to have a different very detailed question every week or two. Talking to folks with the job you want might be more useful to you as jaquilynne suggests.
posted by hydrobatidae at 1:36 PM on May 26, 2020 [15 favorites]
If you're after the UK/London experience, note that LSE graduate programs are double the cost of other schools. There are more cost effective options to get a University of London certificate.
posted by teststrip at 2:06 PM on May 26, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by teststrip at 2:06 PM on May 26, 2020 [3 favorites]
Personally I (deliberately) went for Glasgow instead of LSE for my MSc, but peakes and GCU Sweet and Full of Grace's answers are very very relevant. I did mine because i was hitting a wall in international development as a (third world) country national staff, I couldn't advance without something like my degree, and I had country scholarships so I decided to aim for somewhere that cld at least expose me to Anglophone networks.
posted by cendawanita at 9:18 PM on May 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:18 PM on May 26, 2020 [1 favorite]
Oh, also I didn't find any major differences between my MSc and the MAs of my friends within the UK uni system. Yes, there's a compulsory stats course but it's super basic imo, and at least in my uni, you could even choose between quals or quants but that's for all graduate students.
posted by cendawanita at 9:23 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:23 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
Hydrobatidae's and GCU's responses are important ones, but for very different reasons. If you're applying to grad school as a Canadian, then I would hope that by now you are aware of the disciplinary differences between Canadian and US programs, as well as why terminal MA degrees play a different role in Canada, at least in your discipline.
In Canada, the centre of gravity WRT quant training in the social sciences is very much skewed towards economics, which isn't quite the case in the US and perhaps other English-speaking countries. That's not to say that you need a couple of economics degrees to do policy-related work. IME a decade or so ago most people went the econ route because of its signalling power, but the expansion of public policy programs in Canada means that most of the bright young things we see now begin their careers with an MPP or MPA or the York/Waterloo variations on that theme.
Other MAs are still useful, but the people who manage to leverage them into careers that require any sorts of stats skills made very strategic choices to maximize their quantitative training opportunities either towards the end of undergrad, in their first jobs/co-ops, or in grad school.
posted by blerghamot at 10:38 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
In Canada, the centre of gravity WRT quant training in the social sciences is very much skewed towards economics, which isn't quite the case in the US and perhaps other English-speaking countries. That's not to say that you need a couple of economics degrees to do policy-related work. IME a decade or so ago most people went the econ route because of its signalling power, but the expansion of public policy programs in Canada means that most of the bright young things we see now begin their careers with an MPP or MPA or the York/Waterloo variations on that theme.
Other MAs are still useful, but the people who manage to leverage them into careers that require any sorts of stats skills made very strategic choices to maximize their quantitative training opportunities either towards the end of undergrad, in their first jobs/co-ops, or in grad school.
posted by blerghamot at 10:38 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
I went to LSE and I have a friend from LSE who studied something like international comparative politics. I would not recommend it as a career move unless you're planning to use it as a way to move to the UK. Even then, there are cheaper universities that will allow you the same access to a visa.
I went to LSE because I was deciding between a masters degree and spending a year traveling or attending a language school. I decided to do LSE because it gave me the opportunity to move abroad, travel with classmates while also earning a degree.
After graduation I moved to a major city in the US (not on the East Coast) and no one here had even heard of LSE. I've been told that LSE has more name brand recognition in DC, NY, and Boston. I actually make the same or less money than I made before I went to grad school, and I could have gotten this job without a master's degree. My current job is objectively worse than the job I had before grad school My friend moved back to his home country after graduation and he is has been searching for a full time job for about 2 years now. The degree won't help you get a job you weren't already qualified for before grad school, unless the only reason why you weren't qualified for that job was your lack of master's degree. The teaching is also pretty abysmal in a lot of departments. I don't regret attending because I had a great time partying in London and traveling around Europe with friends during school, and all of my classmates were incredibly interesting people (although I'll be honest, I'm not in touch with most of them anymore)... If I could do it again, I absolutely would. But if I had gone purely for the academics and job prospects, or if I had taken out a lot of debt, I would have been extremely disappointed.
Feel free to message me if you have questions
posted by Penguin48 at 10:56 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
I went to LSE because I was deciding between a masters degree and spending a year traveling or attending a language school. I decided to do LSE because it gave me the opportunity to move abroad, travel with classmates while also earning a degree.
After graduation I moved to a major city in the US (not on the East Coast) and no one here had even heard of LSE. I've been told that LSE has more name brand recognition in DC, NY, and Boston. I actually make the same or less money than I made before I went to grad school, and I could have gotten this job without a master's degree. My current job is objectively worse than the job I had before grad school My friend moved back to his home country after graduation and he is has been searching for a full time job for about 2 years now. The degree won't help you get a job you weren't already qualified for before grad school, unless the only reason why you weren't qualified for that job was your lack of master's degree. The teaching is also pretty abysmal in a lot of departments. I don't regret attending because I had a great time partying in London and traveling around Europe with friends during school, and all of my classmates were incredibly interesting people (although I'll be honest, I'm not in touch with most of them anymore)... If I could do it again, I absolutely would. But if I had gone purely for the academics and job prospects, or if I had taken out a lot of debt, I would have been extremely disappointed.
Feel free to message me if you have questions
posted by Penguin48 at 10:56 PM on May 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
I have an MSc from LSE in a poli sci subject.
As someone who spent 4 years working after my BA, my reasoning for applying to grad school there was that wanted to change careers from finance to international development, and LSE’s brand name is recognised in that field.
The networking was excellent, and the professors very impressive (but far more interested in their studies than their students). I did not need to take or understand complex math subjects, although it certainly helps.
Getting a job afterwards was still very difficult and involved 2 years of internship/lowest entry level jobs.
Before coronavirus, I would have advised you to go to the best MA programme in the city where you want to work. If you want to work for Canadian government, a Canadian school where you can build your networks makes a lot of sense.
Right now, in-person schooling and the style of relationship building that comes with it may be a ways off. I would consider working a while first, if you think that is a viable option.
posted by Concordia at 1:03 PM on May 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
As someone who spent 4 years working after my BA, my reasoning for applying to grad school there was that wanted to change careers from finance to international development, and LSE’s brand name is recognised in that field.
The networking was excellent, and the professors very impressive (but far more interested in their studies than their students). I did not need to take or understand complex math subjects, although it certainly helps.
Getting a job afterwards was still very difficult and involved 2 years of internship/lowest entry level jobs.
Before coronavirus, I would have advised you to go to the best MA programme in the city where you want to work. If you want to work for Canadian government, a Canadian school where you can build your networks makes a lot of sense.
Right now, in-person schooling and the style of relationship building that comes with it may be a ways off. I would consider working a while first, if you think that is a viable option.
posted by Concordia at 1:03 PM on May 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: @Concordia - Thank you for the feedback. Do you happen to know if Research Assistantships are offered or easily to come by for MSc/MA students at LSE? I am hoping to eventually follow the PhD route in Poli Sci eventually, but working in government/NGO might be a good stepping stone first. Kind of would like to work in England, which is why I wanted to pursue LSE, but I can imagine it would be very difficult for an international grad student finding work in England/London.
posted by RearWindow at 3:45 PM on May 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by RearWindow at 3:45 PM on May 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
Hi, burnishing up a PhD application is a use case for a terminal MA about which others can comment.
I'd say that as a resume factor in the US, it falls into two very different perception buckets: "lover of knowledge" and "person with poor judgment for time and money." You have to manage very carefully to end up on the correct side of that divide.
posted by MattD at 6:02 AM on May 28, 2020
I'd say that as a resume factor in the US, it falls into two very different perception buckets: "lover of knowledge" and "person with poor judgment for time and money." You have to manage very carefully to end up on the correct side of that divide.
posted by MattD at 6:02 AM on May 28, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by thebots at 11:51 AM on May 26, 2020 [3 favorites]