Car won't start. Can you help me before AAA?
May 2, 2020 2:44 PM Subscribe
My wife and I had to go out for some necessary errands at the hardware store, and on coming back to our car, we found it won't start. Two attempts at jumping it gave us nothing. AAA is on the way but could be hours. Car experts of MeFi, can you help us get home?
Our car is a 2004 Toyota Matrix. We haven't had any problems with starting or the battery since we bought it a year ago. The lights and other electrical systems are all working fine, but when we turn the if ignition nothing happens. It doesn't even try to turn over. Two different attempts at jumping yielded nothing, so I suspect it's not the battery but I don't really know much about cars. Is it possible a cable to the starter came loose during the drive on the way here? How would I find it?
AAA is sending a battery team but they said it could be three hours before they arrive, and we'd really like to get home. Maybe the answer is "you need a mechanic" and we just have to wait it out, but if there's any chance this is something obvious to a car person but not to me, I'd be extremely grateful for help.
Our car is a 2004 Toyota Matrix. We haven't had any problems with starting or the battery since we bought it a year ago. The lights and other electrical systems are all working fine, but when we turn the if ignition nothing happens. It doesn't even try to turn over. Two different attempts at jumping yielded nothing, so I suspect it's not the battery but I don't really know much about cars. Is it possible a cable to the starter came loose during the drive on the way here? How would I find it?
AAA is sending a battery team but they said it could be three hours before they arrive, and we'd really like to get home. Maybe the answer is "you need a mechanic" and we just have to wait it out, but if there's any chance this is something obvious to a car person but not to me, I'd be extremely grateful for help.
Make sure your gear selector is in Park position. Wiggle it a bit to make sure. It sounds like something in the circuit that allows starting isn’t where it should be.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:48 PM on May 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:48 PM on May 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
Are you sure the car is in park?
posted by subsupra at 2:48 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by subsupra at 2:48 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Tried shifting out of and back into park, no luck. I'll try cleaning the battery terminals, but again, the car's electrical system is working fine otherwise, and there's absolutely no sign it's even trying to start (no dimming of the lights when turning the ignition, e.g.).
posted by biogeo at 2:53 PM on May 2, 2020
posted by biogeo at 2:53 PM on May 2, 2020
Response by poster: Well, good news. AAA is here, but I'll still appreciate any thoughts on case they can't get it working.
posted by biogeo at 2:55 PM on May 2, 2020
posted by biogeo at 2:55 PM on May 2, 2020
My guess is battery didn't have enough go in it for the starter to kick the engine over - even though it had enough for radio and lights. Could be that the starter seized and whacking it with a hammer may help.
posted by iamabot at 3:04 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by iamabot at 3:04 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
How old is your battery? We've had cars that seemed totally fine & suddenly refused to start; we were unable to jumpstart them because the battery was just too old to hold a charge. Putting in a new one fixed the problem.
If a new battery doesn't fix it, it could be the alternator or starter. This blog post talks about the different sounds & symptoms for each of these problems.
posted by belladonna at 3:07 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
If a new battery doesn't fix it, it could be the alternator or starter. This blog post talks about the different sounds & symptoms for each of these problems.
posted by belladonna at 3:07 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: AAA guy just finished up, it's not the battery, that's fine. He tried whacking the starter and that didn't do it. Looks like we're looking at a tow and waiting until Monday for a mechanic to look at it. Terrible timing, we have a feral cat with an appointment to get neutered Monday morning. Any other thoughts still welcome but it's sounding like it's going to take some real diagnostic work from a mechanic.
posted by biogeo at 3:08 PM on May 2, 2020
posted by biogeo at 3:08 PM on May 2, 2020
Response by poster: There's a click and a faint buzzing actually, not like the starter trying to turn over, but sort of an electrical hum. Maybe 100 Hz-ish?
posted by biogeo at 3:21 PM on May 2, 2020
posted by biogeo at 3:21 PM on May 2, 2020
Seconding the suggestion of a bad alternator or starter.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:33 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:33 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Secondary question then, if it's the starter or alternator, how much is this likely to cost?
posted by biogeo at 3:35 PM on May 2, 2020
posted by biogeo at 3:35 PM on May 2, 2020
Bad starter if the battery is fully charged, bad alternator if not is most likely. BEST case is the alternator belt came off or slips and you just need a new belt.
Not sure on prices - it depends where you took it and how long it takes them to work out. A Starter motor is between $100-200 for the part I'd guess, and about the same for an alternator (depending on where they get it, more if they use OEM parts or if it is a dealer). No idea on how long it is to change them for billable hours, though. Front wheel drive cars can be packaged pretty tightly and so may need work to remove things to get to the thing you are changing. So it could be 1 hour labour or 4-5 or anywhere in between.
posted by Brockles at 3:49 PM on May 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
Not sure on prices - it depends where you took it and how long it takes them to work out. A Starter motor is between $100-200 for the part I'd guess, and about the same for an alternator (depending on where they get it, more if they use OEM parts or if it is a dealer). No idea on how long it is to change them for billable hours, though. Front wheel drive cars can be packaged pretty tightly and so may need work to remove things to get to the thing you are changing. So it could be 1 hour labour or 4-5 or anywhere in between.
posted by Brockles at 3:49 PM on May 2, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's either the starter or its solenoid not making proper contact. There is a slight chance it could be a bad ground or something, but you'd probably see other electrical weirdness if that were the issue.
I'd expect to pay $300-$400 at a decent independent shop, but it's been a long time since I had a car to repair..
posted by wierdo at 3:54 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'd expect to pay $300-$400 at a decent independent shop, but it's been a long time since I had a car to repair..
posted by wierdo at 3:54 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
I’ve had starters go out on two cars and it happened exactly like you described. Prices were very different between cars, though. 300-800, I think? So it probably depends on how hard it is to get to on your specific car.
posted by Weeping_angel at 4:18 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by Weeping_angel at 4:18 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
My guess is the ignition relay(~$8).
If it were the solenoid, for some failure modes you would hear the starter motor whirring as it failed to engage the gear to turn the engine over. If the starter motor is seized up or the windings are bad, the lights would dim.
But the ignition relay would hum and nothing else would happen if the relay flipped closed but the contacts failed to energize the solenoid.
And if you glance at the picture behind my link, you'll notice that the relay is small and fully pluggable, which means that Toyota anticipated a high rate of failure.
posted by jamjam at 5:02 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
If it were the solenoid, for some failure modes you would hear the starter motor whirring as it failed to engage the gear to turn the engine over. If the starter motor is seized up or the windings are bad, the lights would dim.
But the ignition relay would hum and nothing else would happen if the relay flipped closed but the contacts failed to energize the solenoid.
And if you glance at the picture behind my link, you'll notice that the relay is small and fully pluggable, which means that Toyota anticipated a high rate of failure.
posted by jamjam at 5:02 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you everyone for the advice and ideas. Our tow operator confirmed that the battery was fine and also guessed that it's probably the starter, but I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that jamjam is right that it's the ignition relay. I really can't spare several hundred bucks to fix this thing right now. I'll follow up with the diagnosis and fix once we've got it, in case anyone is curious to know how it turns out.
posted by biogeo at 5:17 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 5:17 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
But the ignition relay would hum and nothing else would happen if the relay flipped closed but the contacts failed to energize the solenoid.
No, the solenoid is most likely what is making the click they are hearing, which means the relay is allowing it to be thrown in, just then not strong enough to turn the engine. It's unlikely they can hear a starter relay. The buzzing may be the relay afterwards, but is more likely the solenoid trying to stay engaged.
posted by Brockles at 6:31 PM on May 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
No, the solenoid is most likely what is making the click they are hearing, which means the relay is allowing it to be thrown in, just then not strong enough to turn the engine. It's unlikely they can hear a starter relay. The buzzing may be the relay afterwards, but is more likely the solenoid trying to stay engaged.
posted by Brockles at 6:31 PM on May 2, 2020 [6 favorites]
I had this exact same problem on my 2014 Hyundai Elantra. Not the battery, alternator, or starter; they all checked out. It was just a fuse and I replaced it with one of the extras that it came with. I'm sorry, I can't remember which one.
posted by smashface at 7:08 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by smashface at 7:08 PM on May 2, 2020 [2 favorites]
When engaged, the solenoid draws enough current to dim the lights since it works against a relatively powerful spring; since this did not apparently happen, I don't think the solenoid was energized.
But it still could be the solenoid if some part of the wiring failed completely, resulting in an open circuit at the solenoid — but I still think it's most likely to be the ignition relay.
posted by jamjam at 8:25 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
But it still could be the solenoid if some part of the wiring failed completely, resulting in an open circuit at the solenoid — but I still think it's most likely to be the ignition relay.
posted by jamjam at 8:25 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]
There is the ignition relay, which is low current to operate the solenoid coil but the actual starter motor high current relay is inside the solenoid. The big contacts inside the solenoid switch 100 amps or more to the starter motor. Sometimes these high current contacts inside the solenoid burn and fail. So you hear the solenoid click but it doesn't close the high current contacts to operate the motor.
Usually you replace the entire solenoid and starter motor as a single assembly. A re-build starter is a lot cheaper than an OEM starter.
posted by JackFlash at 11:14 PM on May 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Usually you replace the entire solenoid and starter motor as a single assembly. A re-build starter is a lot cheaper than an OEM starter.
posted by JackFlash at 11:14 PM on May 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Well, it was the starter, and it was $250 parts & labor to replace, which isn't nearly as bad as I feared. Thanks again, everyone.
posted by biogeo at 2:53 PM on May 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 2:53 PM on May 4, 2020 [4 favorites]
« Older Keeping the little grey cells active. Seeking... | Is their a cooperative crossword app? Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sammyo at 2:48 PM on May 2, 2020 [1 favorite]