Noisy neighbors, COVID-19 complications
April 15, 2020 2:04 PM Subscribe
How do we address recurring noise issues with our neighbors without bringing worse consequences down on them by involving the landlord?
We live in a two-floor house that's split into two apartments. Our downstairs neighbors make a low-but-noticeable racket all day and night. They're two very sweet 20something men, recently out of college, professionals but still a bit rambunctious. They run and walk hard around the house, slam doors, keep the TV and music a bit loud, and converse and do laundry late into the night. We've asked them to keep noise down at night, but they seem to be unaware of how much noise they are making and how often.
Now, more people seem to be coming and going a lot from their apartment, and we suspect they might be providing shelter to their girlfriends who have been displaced from college due to coronavirus.
The sheer number of people coming, going, talking, playing music, and going up and down stairs is driving us to the brink. On the other hand, if we take the issue to the landlord, it might bring really bad consequences down on people who have no other place to live right now. They're not supposed to have additional people in the apartment who aren't on the lease, but that's hardly meaningful where matters of health and shelter are concerned IMO.
At the same time, we keep asking them to turn it down, and it barely helps. We can't seem to communicate to them HOW MUCH noise they're making, all the time.
How can we resolve this in an amicable way?
We live in a two-floor house that's split into two apartments. Our downstairs neighbors make a low-but-noticeable racket all day and night. They're two very sweet 20something men, recently out of college, professionals but still a bit rambunctious. They run and walk hard around the house, slam doors, keep the TV and music a bit loud, and converse and do laundry late into the night. We've asked them to keep noise down at night, but they seem to be unaware of how much noise they are making and how often.
Now, more people seem to be coming and going a lot from their apartment, and we suspect they might be providing shelter to their girlfriends who have been displaced from college due to coronavirus.
The sheer number of people coming, going, talking, playing music, and going up and down stairs is driving us to the brink. On the other hand, if we take the issue to the landlord, it might bring really bad consequences down on people who have no other place to live right now. They're not supposed to have additional people in the apartment who aren't on the lease, but that's hardly meaningful where matters of health and shelter are concerned IMO.
At the same time, we keep asking them to turn it down, and it barely helps. We can't seem to communicate to them HOW MUCH noise they're making, all the time.
How can we resolve this in an amicable way?
Eh, I'm dealing with the same thing with my upstairs neighbor who has decided to start blasting music/TV every night after a year of quiet and that he wanted to label one of the apartment's trash cans as his own (which, ok, weird flex). I suspect most people are dealing with this chaos poorly and needing to flex what little autonomy they have left in ways that are annoying.
If you've already asked them to keep it down and they aren't just ask your landlord to deal with it. I understand wanting to be kind but they don't seem to care about you.
posted by Young Kullervo at 2:22 PM on April 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
If you've already asked them to keep it down and they aren't just ask your landlord to deal with it. I understand wanting to be kind but they don't seem to care about you.
posted by Young Kullervo at 2:22 PM on April 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
Threaten to tell the landlord? I mean, couch it in “we really don’t wanna get you in trouble, but this is untenable, so these are your options. Tone it down or else.” You could combine it with sciencegeek’s offer of letting one of them experience how loud they really are. But you don’t wanna get into a “this isn’t that bad, you’re too sensitive” argument.
posted by ClarissaWAM at 2:43 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by ClarissaWAM at 2:43 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
I'm probably going to be the contrarian here, and I'm sorry to rain on your parade, but I think from your question that it's not clear that this is your landlord's responsibility (yet, or even at all). I think you should try to find out the decibel limits set by your city's noise ordinances, and then buy a decibel meter and see what the noise levels are at different times of day (usually there's a daytime limit and then a nighttime limit, the hours of which can vary during the week and at weekends). I suspect that the noise your neighbors are making is well within the allowed decibel limit, which in my city is quite high.
I was faced with almost this exact situation as a landlord, and it was really tough. My previous downstairs tenants called and texted me frequently complaining of noise from upstairs, but when a decibel meter was used, the noise levels from upstairs (as measured in the downstairs apartment) were well *under* what our city considers objectionable. Apartment dwelling entails dealing with a certain amount of noise: that's the nature of urban living, and why many people move to the suburbs. Many people also seem to have unreasonable ideas about how quiet apartment living can be. Different buildings transmit noise in different ways, certain types of noise are very hard to block (some require lots of mass, etc.), and (from my research) noise mitigation attempts are usually expensive and often have very little effect, especially without gutting the unit and putting insulation under the floor, etc. Also, people are allowed to conduct normal activities in their apartment, including walking around, closing doors, doing laundry, watching TV, entertaining friends/lovers, and talking. As a landlord, I was sympathetic to the concerns of my tenant complaining about noise, but also felt that it was unjust/impossible to try to evict my other tenants for simply living in their unit, especially when the noise was (according to our city) not excessive. I also determined that my "noisy" tenants potentially could sue me if I tried to intervene for noise that the city deems allowed. When I spoke with our city's 311 line, they told me that this was an interpersonal issue between my two sets of tenants and that they would recommend I not be involved.
What I would recommend, therefore, is that you try to get an objective sense of the problem through buying a decibel meter and keeping a log when you experience noise and comparing it to your city's ordinances. I also think that you should imagine how you'd try to deal with the situation if you owned the apartment and your landlord were not involved. I'd try to talk to your downstairs tenants more fully and see if they are receptive to working with you to improve the situation. Perhaps they would be fine with you texting them when you are disturbed by their noise. Or maybe they'd let you buy them rugs or something else that would dampen noise. Fundamentally, I think that if you are incompatible with their noise level but it is not objectively excessive (which is what I imagine may be the case), I would consider moving. I think that you should talk to your landlord about whether he/she would be amenable to you shortening your lease without penalty in this circumstance. This is what I wish my downstairs tenants had done, and what I think would have been fairest on all parties.
posted by ClaireBear at 2:47 PM on April 15, 2020 [40 favorites]
I was faced with almost this exact situation as a landlord, and it was really tough. My previous downstairs tenants called and texted me frequently complaining of noise from upstairs, but when a decibel meter was used, the noise levels from upstairs (as measured in the downstairs apartment) were well *under* what our city considers objectionable. Apartment dwelling entails dealing with a certain amount of noise: that's the nature of urban living, and why many people move to the suburbs. Many people also seem to have unreasonable ideas about how quiet apartment living can be. Different buildings transmit noise in different ways, certain types of noise are very hard to block (some require lots of mass, etc.), and (from my research) noise mitigation attempts are usually expensive and often have very little effect, especially without gutting the unit and putting insulation under the floor, etc. Also, people are allowed to conduct normal activities in their apartment, including walking around, closing doors, doing laundry, watching TV, entertaining friends/lovers, and talking. As a landlord, I was sympathetic to the concerns of my tenant complaining about noise, but also felt that it was unjust/impossible to try to evict my other tenants for simply living in their unit, especially when the noise was (according to our city) not excessive. I also determined that my "noisy" tenants potentially could sue me if I tried to intervene for noise that the city deems allowed. When I spoke with our city's 311 line, they told me that this was an interpersonal issue between my two sets of tenants and that they would recommend I not be involved.
What I would recommend, therefore, is that you try to get an objective sense of the problem through buying a decibel meter and keeping a log when you experience noise and comparing it to your city's ordinances. I also think that you should imagine how you'd try to deal with the situation if you owned the apartment and your landlord were not involved. I'd try to talk to your downstairs tenants more fully and see if they are receptive to working with you to improve the situation. Perhaps they would be fine with you texting them when you are disturbed by their noise. Or maybe they'd let you buy them rugs or something else that would dampen noise. Fundamentally, I think that if you are incompatible with their noise level but it is not objectively excessive (which is what I imagine may be the case), I would consider moving. I think that you should talk to your landlord about whether he/she would be amenable to you shortening your lease without penalty in this circumstance. This is what I wish my downstairs tenants had done, and what I think would have been fairest on all parties.
posted by ClaireBear at 2:47 PM on April 15, 2020 [40 favorites]
Another perspective: do you know how loudly sounds from your apartment travel to theirs? It may be that they hear you more easily than you hear them, so they think their noise is reasonable in relation to sounds from you?
I've lived above someone who found even quite quiet sounds from our apartment very loud when heard from below; I think sounds go down through a floor more easily than they come up through a ceiling. (Our downstairs neighbor went ballistic over some kittens playing - it's all in the ear of the beholder*.)
(*Sorry to mix visual and auditory metaphors)
posted by anadem at 3:00 PM on April 15, 2020 [7 favorites]
I've lived above someone who found even quite quiet sounds from our apartment very loud when heard from below; I think sounds go down through a floor more easily than they come up through a ceiling. (Our downstairs neighbor went ballistic over some kittens playing - it's all in the ear of the beholder*.)
(*Sorry to mix visual and auditory metaphors)
posted by anadem at 3:00 PM on April 15, 2020 [7 favorites]
Also, lest I sound unsympathetic, I should say that my husband and I are very noise sensitive (especially my husband), and when we looked for an apartment to rent last summer, a quiet space was highest on our priority list. We paid extra for a top-floor apartment that was in a location that we were pretty sure would be very quiet due to various factors (we considered proximity to stairwells and elevators, the path through the building that people would likely be walking, how we imagined noise would travel, etc.). We put some time into strategizing about exactly which apartment to take. I had to give up my priority of direct sunlight in order for us to have a quiet apartment, since the unit we took was north-facing (I would have preferred light to quiet, but it was a marital compromise I made so my husband could hopefully sleep). The strategizing paid off and we ended up with a generally very quiet unit, but it wasn't dead silent (our downstairs neighbor still had the occasional late party or played music): we just deemed that the cost of apartment living and considered ourselves lucky. I guess what I'm saying is that if this is important to you (and that's perfectly legitimate!), you need to put it on your priority list and specifically seek out an apartment that is a good fit - same as someone who wants a really sunlit apartment, or one with outdoors space, or one that is dog friendly, or whatever. A quiet apartment isn't often something that just happens.
posted by ClaireBear at 3:05 PM on April 15, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by ClaireBear at 3:05 PM on April 15, 2020 [10 favorites]
Do you get the impression that they are conversing at normal levels and you just have really thin walls and floors? I don't know if you can expect people not to talk in their apartment. Have other folks lived there and been quieter? I am also wondering what you have done to try to absorb some of the sound. Have you put down carpets if you have hard floors? Tried having soft music or white noise playing to mask some of the noise? Maybe covered up vents?
I think this is a tough time because a lot of us are stuck at home. I'm not sure what the landlord could do except ask them to be quiet. I don't think the landlord will evict people for ... doing laundry at night.
I would approach this an issue where you might need to do some things on your side, and where you can ask them to do things on theirs (maybe have quiet hours?), but also where ... this might be something you have to figure out a way to deal with for a while.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:07 PM on April 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
I think this is a tough time because a lot of us are stuck at home. I'm not sure what the landlord could do except ask them to be quiet. I don't think the landlord will evict people for ... doing laundry at night.
I would approach this an issue where you might need to do some things on your side, and where you can ask them to do things on theirs (maybe have quiet hours?), but also where ... this might be something you have to figure out a way to deal with for a while.
posted by bluedaisy at 3:07 PM on April 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
Get some rugs for your floors, that will help absorb more of the noise.
As a bonus, your neighbors won't hear you as much either. If the sound is traveling up through the floor, your simply walking around the apartment is probably quite loud to them.
posted by yohko at 3:13 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
As a bonus, your neighbors won't hear you as much either. If the sound is traveling up through the floor, your simply walking around the apartment is probably quite loud to them.
posted by yohko at 3:13 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
This would drive me crazy, too. I'll echo what others said- I think unfortunately the landlord can't do much (or anything) unless maybe your leases have quiet hours specified or something like that. The only things that have helped me slightly with noise from neighbors: running a box fan at night for the white noise, and wearing Bose noise-canceling headphones (sometimes to bed, though they have a cord and I can't say they're safe to wear while sleeping). And try saying something politely to them again.
posted by pinochiette at 3:55 PM on April 15, 2020
posted by pinochiette at 3:55 PM on April 15, 2020
I think you should try to find out the decibel limits set by your city's noise ordinances, and then buy a decibel meter and see what the noise levels are at different times of day (usually there's a daytime limit and then a nighttime limit, the hours of which can vary during the week and at weekends).
As someone who often deals professionally with noise ordinances and the authorities, this is a waste of time and money.
Precisely because otherwise ClaireBear is entirely correct - "I suspect that the noise your neighbors are making is well within the allowed decibel limit, which in my city is quite high."
Noise ordinances are set at either "deafening live rock band" levels and meant to prevent pretty much just that (and there is almost no way your neighbors are that loud) or "completely unrealistic, cars driving past on the street are louder" and exist just as ammunition for the cops to hassle "undesirables."
If you really feel like having some kind of "proof" there are cheap/free phone apps that will measure decibels. They're not very accurate, but you don't need them to be. But I really really really don't think you're going to get any useful info, and frankly, once you've gotten readings, what are you going to do with them? You either call the cops or complain to your landlord & provide the proof. Either way the only thing to do with your decibels notations gets the authorities involved, which you say you don't want to do.
I'll second ClarissaWAM - “we really don’t wanna get you in trouble, but this is untenable, so these are your options. Tone it down or else.”
The sheer number of people coming, going,
Also, I don't know where you are , but if you're in a place with a "safe at home"/"shelter in place" policy, people are really not supposed to be coming and going except as utterly necessary, and many places are enforcing this, more every day. More ammunition for, "you gotta cool it because if the authorities get involved you could be in real trouble."
posted by soundguy99 at 4:55 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
As someone who often deals professionally with noise ordinances and the authorities, this is a waste of time and money.
Precisely because otherwise ClaireBear is entirely correct - "I suspect that the noise your neighbors are making is well within the allowed decibel limit, which in my city is quite high."
Noise ordinances are set at either "deafening live rock band" levels and meant to prevent pretty much just that (and there is almost no way your neighbors are that loud) or "completely unrealistic, cars driving past on the street are louder" and exist just as ammunition for the cops to hassle "undesirables."
If you really feel like having some kind of "proof" there are cheap/free phone apps that will measure decibels. They're not very accurate, but you don't need them to be. But I really really really don't think you're going to get any useful info, and frankly, once you've gotten readings, what are you going to do with them? You either call the cops or complain to your landlord & provide the proof. Either way the only thing to do with your decibels notations gets the authorities involved, which you say you don't want to do.
I'll second ClarissaWAM - “we really don’t wanna get you in trouble, but this is untenable, so these are your options. Tone it down or else.”
The sheer number of people coming, going,
Also, I don't know where you are , but if you're in a place with a "safe at home"/"shelter in place" policy, people are really not supposed to be coming and going except as utterly necessary, and many places are enforcing this, more every day. More ammunition for, "you gotta cool it because if the authorities get involved you could be in real trouble."
posted by soundguy99 at 4:55 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
Uh, I don't think one should have to just accept noise if one isn't able to spend a bunch of time developing expertise and then to pay "extra for a top-floor apartment that was in a location that we were pretty sure would be very quiet due to various factors". Or if one needs to live in the city for some reason.
posted by amtho at 5:06 PM on April 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by amtho at 5:06 PM on April 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Sure, apartment dwelling entails dealing with a certain amount of noise, but it also entails a certain amount of courtesy. In the past when I've gone to landlords/property managers with complaints like these, their stance was that people who are not willing or able to keep their noise within a certain level are the ones not cut out for apartment living. Since these fellows seem to be unreceptive to your requests, I think that going to the landlord is a reasonable next step. If their response indicates that they are not willing to help, then I guess it might be time to think about moving once all this is over.
posted by mustard seeds at 5:07 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by mustard seeds at 5:07 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
Thinking about this further, I really wanted to urge you to try to resolve this amicably with your neighbors before taking a more adversarial approach involving the landlord/police. I really think that some combination of talking to them to try to invoke their sympathy, letting them hear the noise in your unit, and asking them to use rugs that you pay for are the way forward here. I'm afraid that if you take a more adversarial approach, they may at best continue their current behavior intractably, and at worst, retaliate by making more noise. Looking back on my tenant situation, I think that my tenants who objected to the perceived noise made it worse by trying to bring me in early with a heavy hand, which resulted in a really antagonistic situation. My guess is that any "cool it because if the authorities get involved it's going to get unpleasant" approaches may well make things worse for you.
posted by ClaireBear at 5:08 PM on April 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by ClaireBear at 5:08 PM on April 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
I've lived in a co-op in NYC and we had a set of "house rules" that everyone (owner or subletter) agreed to. Those included covering 2/3rd of hardwood floor with carpeting/rugs/padding, not wearing hard soled shoes inside, keeping noise to a minimum and definitely keeping quiet hours after 10 pm. Those all sound like reasonable things you could ask your downstairs neighbors to do and you could agree to do them too.
Getting absolute quiet in any house/building is difficult because sound waves carry through joists and hard materials. I have had great success with professional soundproofing that pretty much eliminated all TV, phone, talking noise from neighbors and the expense was not great and I didn't have to give up more than an inch of ceiling height. If you are planning on being in this place long-term and have a good relationship with your landlord maybe you can discuss options. It would be a capital investment for them that would increase the value of the property and some portion of the expense could likely be written off (I say this as a landlord who has done this).
posted by brookeb at 6:11 PM on April 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
Getting absolute quiet in any house/building is difficult because sound waves carry through joists and hard materials. I have had great success with professional soundproofing that pretty much eliminated all TV, phone, talking noise from neighbors and the expense was not great and I didn't have to give up more than an inch of ceiling height. If you are planning on being in this place long-term and have a good relationship with your landlord maybe you can discuss options. It would be a capital investment for them that would increase the value of the property and some portion of the expense could likely be written off (I say this as a landlord who has done this).
posted by brookeb at 6:11 PM on April 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
I agree with the poster who said that quiet apartments "don't just happen." Some apartments are well constructed to minimize noise transmission between apartments, and some are cheaply constructed, to the point where you can hear people in neighboring apartments making the smallest sounds.
Since you've reported that your neighbors talk at night, it sounds like you've moved into the latter type of apartment (especially if it's a converted residential house, which it sounds like it is).
Anyway, it's quite unreasonable for you to expect your neighbors to not talk, or walk around, or watch TV in their own home. If you're constantly texting them and complaining to them about normal human activities like walking around and closing doors, then it sounds like you're the problem tenant, not them.
posted by Umami Dearest at 11:01 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
Since you've reported that your neighbors talk at night, it sounds like you've moved into the latter type of apartment (especially if it's a converted residential house, which it sounds like it is).
Anyway, it's quite unreasonable for you to expect your neighbors to not talk, or walk around, or watch TV in their own home. If you're constantly texting them and complaining to them about normal human activities like walking around and closing doors, then it sounds like you're the problem tenant, not them.
posted by Umami Dearest at 11:01 PM on April 15, 2020 [4 favorites]
This question is probably one of the most asked on AskMeFi. We all deal with it in different ways depending on our situation.
These answers here are great but also check out these: noise, for a million more.
posted by bendy at 11:32 PM on April 15, 2020
These answers here are great but also check out these: noise, for a million more.
posted by bendy at 11:32 PM on April 15, 2020
Response by poster: Thanks for everyone's answers. We've lived here for 7 years or so and our previous downstairs neighbors had a toddler and a dog, and there was never a noise issue until the new tenants arrived a few months ago.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 6:03 AM on April 16, 2020
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 6:03 AM on April 16, 2020
The fact that you were lucky enough to have one set of very quiet neighbors doesn't change the fundamental situation, although it might be skewing your expectations.
What it boils down to is that if you can hear your neighbors talking or watching TV, then your apartment simply doesn't have adequate sound insulation. The problem is your apartment's construction, not your neighbors, who are just engaging in normal, reasonable activities at home.
Personally, I've always made it a priority to choose well constructed, well insulated apartments to live in, and among my dozens and dozens of neighbors over the years I have never, ever heard people talking or watching TV in an adjoining apartment.
posted by Umami Dearest at 3:00 PM on April 17, 2020
What it boils down to is that if you can hear your neighbors talking or watching TV, then your apartment simply doesn't have adequate sound insulation. The problem is your apartment's construction, not your neighbors, who are just engaging in normal, reasonable activities at home.
Personally, I've always made it a priority to choose well constructed, well insulated apartments to live in, and among my dozens and dozens of neighbors over the years I have never, ever heard people talking or watching TV in an adjoining apartment.
posted by Umami Dearest at 3:00 PM on April 17, 2020
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:15 PM on April 15, 2020 [2 favorites]