How can I learn to navigate Guess Culture?
August 5, 2019 7:00 PM Subscribe
I'm a prototypical Ask Culture critter, but I'm surrounded by High-Context Culture types. I've struggled for years, but I've finally come to understand that my way is not inherently better, and I want to learn how to interact with people‒people I'm close to‒so we can all be happy. Do you know of books or papers I should read, or things I should do? Thank you.
(My question was prompted by this article, if it helps frame the question.)
I don't know of reading, but as a person raised Guess Culture, I'd say the following:
(a) I'm not permitted to say no to you if you ask. If you ask, I have to say yes to you unless I am circumstantially prevented from saying yes.
(b) I will be resentful as fuck if you ask me something I'm not okay with (see a for why). Like don't even ask me for money. I will be very uncomfortable with that level of bluntness anyway even if it's not something I hate.
(c) I'm not allowed to straight up ask you for what I want. It has to be your idea and your suggestion. I know I will get my head ripped off if I ever ask for anything in my family.
(d) If I ever actually ask someone for something, THEY'D BETTER SAY YES, it is NOT okay for them to say no. If it was bad enough that I had to cave in and ask, I will resent them if they say no.
(e) I would rather not ask if at all possible because I know I will resent the hell out of you if you say no to whatever I asked you about in (d).
Overall key things to remember:
(a) I don't ask because I know I will get my head ripped off if I ask.
(b) It is NOT SAFE for me to ever ask.
(c) I resent the hell out of people who DO ask.
(d) I don't feel like I can say no if someone asks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:20 PM on August 5, 2019 [47 favorites]
(a) I'm not permitted to say no to you if you ask. If you ask, I have to say yes to you unless I am circumstantially prevented from saying yes.
(b) I will be resentful as fuck if you ask me something I'm not okay with (see a for why). Like don't even ask me for money. I will be very uncomfortable with that level of bluntness anyway even if it's not something I hate.
(c) I'm not allowed to straight up ask you for what I want. It has to be your idea and your suggestion. I know I will get my head ripped off if I ever ask for anything in my family.
(d) If I ever actually ask someone for something, THEY'D BETTER SAY YES, it is NOT okay for them to say no. If it was bad enough that I had to cave in and ask, I will resent them if they say no.
(e) I would rather not ask if at all possible because I know I will resent the hell out of you if you say no to whatever I asked you about in (d).
Overall key things to remember:
(a) I don't ask because I know I will get my head ripped off if I ask.
(b) It is NOT SAFE for me to ever ask.
(c) I resent the hell out of people who DO ask.
(d) I don't feel like I can say no if someone asks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:20 PM on August 5, 2019 [47 favorites]
I don’t have any literature recommendations, but as to just general information: be observant of body language, are they leaning back or in? How does their voice sound when you make a request? Is it tight or effusive? Does it feel good or bad to talk to this person? This will all help inform you as to how this person feels. Practice listening to it. It will get easier. All other species communicate with a multitude of signals. We are just another species, and have those same elements of communication, so studying other species may help.
I’m a guess culture person, and because I’m a people pleaser, if someone makes a request of me, I feel obligated to support them in that request. When people ‘imply’ a desire, it doesn’t make it less than directly asking for it, but rather they are creating a saving of face space for the recipient of the request.
posted by MountainDaisy at 8:33 PM on August 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I’m a guess culture person, and because I’m a people pleaser, if someone makes a request of me, I feel obligated to support them in that request. When people ‘imply’ a desire, it doesn’t make it less than directly asking for it, but rather they are creating a saving of face space for the recipient of the request.
posted by MountainDaisy at 8:33 PM on August 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
The fastest method I'm aware of for dealing with interpersonal issues of this kind is gently increasing the amount of face-to-face communication I do around it; specifically, asking the occasional judiciously timed question and then doing a lot of listening and reflection.
I've finally come to understand that my way is not inherently better
That, right there? That's the breakthrough understanding, without having had which no progress is possible. Your realization that your way or the highway are not the only options for the people around you opens a channel through which learning will eventually flow in both directions.
When somebody close to you makes a choice that you know you would not have made yourself, wait until the next time the two of you are in a good conversational place and then ask them about it. If you frame your question in a way that makes it clear that you genuinely seek to understand the factors underpinning that choice in order to improve your own social skills, and are not in any way criticizing or otherwise taking issue with it, I think you will find that the answers you get are both honest and thought-provoking.
Just don't go in too hard, like this is some kind of major research project that needs publishable results by Thursday; nobody likes a sea lion. And you should expect to find the answers difficult to understand, if the underlying difference is indeed one of acculturation. Think on them a lot before asking followup questions. Remember that other people who take the time to educate you about their culture are doing you a favour; they don't owe you.
I'm not sure you will ever acquire the skills you're looking for by reading stuff that isn't written by the people you wish to learn to get on better with. Books and papers with a cultural analysis bent are, by necessity, about types of people rather than about people, and if that's where you put your focus it's way too easy to mistake the person in front of you for an exemplar of some Type you've recently read about. This is unhelpful.
The Golden Rule is often rendered as "do unto others as you would have them do to you", but it's long seemed to me that ham-fisted adherence to that rule causes as much trouble as ham-fisted adherence to any other. People are complicated and subtle, and the way to get better at tuning into them is to pay more attention to them than to your accumulated assumptions about them. When in Rome do as the Romans do, not as the guidebook you read before turning up says they're supposed to do.
You've got this. Just be a bit humble about it and in three years you'll be Guessing with the best of them.
posted by flabdablet at 8:37 PM on August 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
I've finally come to understand that my way is not inherently better
That, right there? That's the breakthrough understanding, without having had which no progress is possible. Your realization that your way or the highway are not the only options for the people around you opens a channel through which learning will eventually flow in both directions.
When somebody close to you makes a choice that you know you would not have made yourself, wait until the next time the two of you are in a good conversational place and then ask them about it. If you frame your question in a way that makes it clear that you genuinely seek to understand the factors underpinning that choice in order to improve your own social skills, and are not in any way criticizing or otherwise taking issue with it, I think you will find that the answers you get are both honest and thought-provoking.
Just don't go in too hard, like this is some kind of major research project that needs publishable results by Thursday; nobody likes a sea lion. And you should expect to find the answers difficult to understand, if the underlying difference is indeed one of acculturation. Think on them a lot before asking followup questions. Remember that other people who take the time to educate you about their culture are doing you a favour; they don't owe you.
I'm not sure you will ever acquire the skills you're looking for by reading stuff that isn't written by the people you wish to learn to get on better with. Books and papers with a cultural analysis bent are, by necessity, about types of people rather than about people, and if that's where you put your focus it's way too easy to mistake the person in front of you for an exemplar of some Type you've recently read about. This is unhelpful.
The Golden Rule is often rendered as "do unto others as you would have them do to you", but it's long seemed to me that ham-fisted adherence to that rule causes as much trouble as ham-fisted adherence to any other. People are complicated and subtle, and the way to get better at tuning into them is to pay more attention to them than to your accumulated assumptions about them. When in Rome do as the Romans do, not as the guidebook you read before turning up says they're supposed to do.
You've got this. Just be a bit humble about it and in three years you'll be Guessing with the best of them.
posted by flabdablet at 8:37 PM on August 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
This paper about the New York Jewish Conversational Style is very readable, fantastically insightful, and helped me (an Asker) better understand Guessers.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:51 PM on August 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:51 PM on August 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
I've lost the reference, but this story supposedly comes from U.S. Army training materials for Americans who need to interact with Japanese people:
A takes a fancy to B, and A's mother visits B's mother to discuss the possibility. B's mother welcomes A's mother with tea and a beautiful arrangement of sliced bananas. They chat about many things, but the topic of marriage is never broached. A's mother returns home to tell A that B's family does not approve of the match.
In the essay where I encountered this story, the author explains that the story is presented as a riddle for the soldiers, but to her (Japan-born) eyes the answer is obvious: bananas are not a good accompaniment to tea.
The key is to realize that within a guess culture (and it does need to be the same guess culture, the bananas thing would not have been clear to me as a Chinese person), the communication is explicit. It's no different than, say, the way an American might run into you on the subway and ask you how you are, and expect you to understand that this not the time to go into detail about the black mold that has put your entire family in temporary housing and your grandmother in the hospital.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:01 PM on August 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
A takes a fancy to B, and A's mother visits B's mother to discuss the possibility. B's mother welcomes A's mother with tea and a beautiful arrangement of sliced bananas. They chat about many things, but the topic of marriage is never broached. A's mother returns home to tell A that B's family does not approve of the match.
In the essay where I encountered this story, the author explains that the story is presented as a riddle for the soldiers, but to her (Japan-born) eyes the answer is obvious: bananas are not a good accompaniment to tea.
The key is to realize that within a guess culture (and it does need to be the same guess culture, the bananas thing would not have been clear to me as a Chinese person), the communication is explicit. It's no different than, say, the way an American might run into you on the subway and ask you how you are, and expect you to understand that this not the time to go into detail about the black mold that has put your entire family in temporary housing and your grandmother in the hospital.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 9:01 PM on August 5, 2019 [17 favorites]
Googling "High Context Culture" will get you a lot. This is something that comes up a lot in international business as well as cross-cultural counseling contexts, and there's a fair amount written about it.
posted by lazuli at 9:03 PM on August 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by lazuli at 9:03 PM on August 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I would... take any random examples of generic "high context culture behavior" with a grain of salt. Trying to draw specific cultural norms from them is like trying to pronounce a foreign word you heard once through a game of telephone which may not even be in the language you're trying to speak.
There are a lot of different cultures. Some of them are high context cultures. Specific values and behaviors for one are not necessarily going to translate to another.
The general experience of beign in a high context culture is that you generally know where people around you are at emotionally, have a good (if sometimes erroneous) guess as to why, and generally have an idea of how people are going to react to any given thing, and make your decisions based on that. As jenfullmoon alluded to, by the time you have to explicitly ask for things, it's serious.
Honestly, if you haven't picked up on the specific culture already just observing closely, you're going to have to ask questions. That's OK! It's kind of expected that people who are outside a the group are going to need to do that. But there's usually an accepted way of doing it, for example it's probably not of the person who just reacted unexpectedly negatively to something you just said or did. I would say bring it up with someone you're pretty close with but also knows the other person better than you, though maybe there are some cultures where there's a different appropriate way to broach questions like that. Though on reading back I think flabdablet has a better handle on communicating what I'm trying to say.
At any rate, good luck on getting along better, and hopefully putting the effort to notice and understand will also be noticed and appreciated.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:09 PM on August 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
There are a lot of different cultures. Some of them are high context cultures. Specific values and behaviors for one are not necessarily going to translate to another.
The general experience of beign in a high context culture is that you generally know where people around you are at emotionally, have a good (if sometimes erroneous) guess as to why, and generally have an idea of how people are going to react to any given thing, and make your decisions based on that. As jenfullmoon alluded to, by the time you have to explicitly ask for things, it's serious.
Honestly, if you haven't picked up on the specific culture already just observing closely, you're going to have to ask questions. That's OK! It's kind of expected that people who are outside a the group are going to need to do that. But there's usually an accepted way of doing it, for example it's probably not of the person who just reacted unexpectedly negatively to something you just said or did. I would say bring it up with someone you're pretty close with but also knows the other person better than you, though maybe there are some cultures where there's a different appropriate way to broach questions like that. Though on reading back I think flabdablet has a better handle on communicating what I'm trying to say.
At any rate, good luck on getting along better, and hopefully putting the effort to notice and understand will also be noticed and appreciated.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:09 PM on August 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
I'm from Guess Culture. Sorry, I don't have an article suggestion, but maybe this might help a little...
If you ask something of me, I won't feel able to refuse, especially if we don't know each other REALLY well. I'll agree to whatever you're asking, but here are my tells that I'm not happy about it;
I pause for a long moment before answering (I'm trying to figure an acceptable way out that doesn't involve me saying I just don't want to do/loan you/watch whatever thing it is you've suggested.
I come up with hurdles/complications and ask you if you're sure you want whatever it is you're asking for. For example, "Sure you can borrow the car this afternoon, the only thing is, it's covered in dog fur from the last time we took the dogs to the mountains. It's probably pretty stinky too. Are you SURE you want to borrow it?"
I never actually hard commit to loaning/doing whatever it is you're asking. I say I have to check on something, or check with someone first, and that's the last you hear about it. I haven't forgotten, I'm hoping you'll take my hint and drop it.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:33 AM on August 6, 2019 [28 favorites]
If you ask something of me, I won't feel able to refuse, especially if we don't know each other REALLY well. I'll agree to whatever you're asking, but here are my tells that I'm not happy about it;
I pause for a long moment before answering (I'm trying to figure an acceptable way out that doesn't involve me saying I just don't want to do/loan you/watch whatever thing it is you've suggested.
I come up with hurdles/complications and ask you if you're sure you want whatever it is you're asking for. For example, "Sure you can borrow the car this afternoon, the only thing is, it's covered in dog fur from the last time we took the dogs to the mountains. It's probably pretty stinky too. Are you SURE you want to borrow it?"
I never actually hard commit to loaning/doing whatever it is you're asking. I say I have to check on something, or check with someone first, and that's the last you hear about it. I haven't forgotten, I'm hoping you'll take my hint and drop it.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 12:33 AM on August 6, 2019 [28 favorites]
I'm a guess person and to me there's a big aspect of emotional labor in it. There will be a lot of cases where I'll think "okay, they need my help; but I don't really want to do this thing, or I really don't want to do this, or it creates a great deal of work, stress, or inconvenience for me; but then again maybe it solves a great difficulty for them, and I want us to live in a world where we're not all on our own and we know when we need help we can really on others; but then again do they really need my help, have they actually thought about what they're asking means for me, and have they weighed my needs or inconvenience against theirs and decided to ask me because it's truly important, or are they just thoughtlessly expecting me to do this work for them?"
Basically, I don't usually want to be asked just because that's the quickest or easiest option for the asker; I want to be asked when there's an actual need and I want to feel that the asker isn't just dumping some labor on me but instead has actually thought through what asking me entails for me both emotionally and practically. I simultaneously really want to help and really hate being imposed upon, and I want to be able to trust that the person asking understands this, has done the work of weighing out our needs, our preferences, and my ability to say no, and will do their best to either convey an understanding of that or phrase their request in the way that makes it easiest for me to say no if I need to.
All this processing varies, of course, based on the relationship between us: there are a very few very close people where I actually want them to feel super free to ask me for anything. And there are some relationships where we've established up front that there's zero expectations I'll say yes to any request and that any help from me is just a huge bonus, and then I don't feel that big tension between my needs and theirs when I say no. How close we are, how much I like or love you, what I feel I owe you in general, how much I need or ask from you, what the power relationship is between us, how you generally treat me, how frequently we interact, what other resources you have - all of these things are factors.
posted by trig at 2:24 AM on August 6, 2019 [21 favorites]
Basically, I don't usually want to be asked just because that's the quickest or easiest option for the asker; I want to be asked when there's an actual need and I want to feel that the asker isn't just dumping some labor on me but instead has actually thought through what asking me entails for me both emotionally and practically. I simultaneously really want to help and really hate being imposed upon, and I want to be able to trust that the person asking understands this, has done the work of weighing out our needs, our preferences, and my ability to say no, and will do their best to either convey an understanding of that or phrase their request in the way that makes it easiest for me to say no if I need to.
All this processing varies, of course, based on the relationship between us: there are a very few very close people where I actually want them to feel super free to ask me for anything. And there are some relationships where we've established up front that there's zero expectations I'll say yes to any request and that any help from me is just a huge bonus, and then I don't feel that big tension between my needs and theirs when I say no. How close we are, how much I like or love you, what I feel I owe you in general, how much I need or ask from you, what the power relationship is between us, how you generally treat me, how frequently we interact, what other resources you have - all of these things are factors.
posted by trig at 2:24 AM on August 6, 2019 [21 favorites]
And as WalkerWestridge says, sometimes I'll hint or try indirectly to convey my lack of enthusiasm because I don't have enough information to be sure that you don't seriously need my help, but I really prefer you not to ask if it's not that important, and I want you to understand my preference while still understanding that I'll be there for you if it is actually necessary.
And sometimes I'll just say yes and act all gracious or enthusiastic about it because I'm willing to carry the labor of that to try to contribute to the kind of world I want to live in - but I'll pay attention in future to see whether it feels like you understand what I'm doing or are taking it for granted.
posted by trig at 2:34 AM on August 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
And sometimes I'll just say yes and act all gracious or enthusiastic about it because I'm willing to carry the labor of that to try to contribute to the kind of world I want to live in - but I'll pay attention in future to see whether it feels like you understand what I'm doing or are taking it for granted.
posted by trig at 2:34 AM on August 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
I would take research on high and low context cultures with several grains of salt; they are white/WASP/Western-centric in their assumptions and thus tend to find white/WASP/Western cultures to be low context and Eastern, non-white cultures to be high context.
Whichever specific high context culture you are dealing with in your loved ones will have its own specific rules that we won't be able to give you general rules for. For instance, see jenfullmoon's aversion to saying NO directly which is the total opposite of the high context culture example in the article you linked -- French people are described as saying NO first, always, to everything.
You will just have to observe, ask, try, fail, and try again to learn the rules of whichever culture it is that you are dealing with. Especially in close relationships it makes a lot of sense to trade on the currency of your closeness to ask what the hell you are supposed to do - metacommunication. People who love you will help you out.
posted by MiraK at 4:00 AM on August 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
Whichever specific high context culture you are dealing with in your loved ones will have its own specific rules that we won't be able to give you general rules for. For instance, see jenfullmoon's aversion to saying NO directly which is the total opposite of the high context culture example in the article you linked -- French people are described as saying NO first, always, to everything.
You will just have to observe, ask, try, fail, and try again to learn the rules of whichever culture it is that you are dealing with. Especially in close relationships it makes a lot of sense to trade on the currency of your closeness to ask what the hell you are supposed to do - metacommunication. People who love you will help you out.
posted by MiraK at 4:00 AM on August 6, 2019 [5 favorites]
Yes, as an East Asian person who has lived in east Asia, I find the idea that only ‘Eastern’ or East Asian cultures are high context and ‘western’ ones to be low context completely mythical and incorrect.
For example, US culture can be incredibly high context and guess-oriented for those who don’t understand it. There’s a great deal of saving face, polite gestures, and focus on decorum in US culture that’s difficult to parse.. again, for those who don’t understand it.
Examples: “let’s hang out sometime!” , “oh, I like it”, “how are you?”, “make yourself at home” as incredible confusing phrases that are coded with high context, respectively meaning ‘see you later’, ‘eh it’s okay’, ‘nice to see you’, ‘welcome to my place’.
This gets more complicated in a professional context, as you are expected to be fluent in several different strains of small talk (family / sports / media / politics / travel), and to switch between them as necessary to find a shared middle ground without actually sharing personally important information. Not to mention that navigating hierarchies and bosses involves a careful dance, acting as if the people above you are your friends, yet strategizing as if they have power over your job position.
This isn’t bad or good or anything, but just pointing out that “high context” can often mean “I don’t understand it”.
In fact, I think each culture has its own ask and guess cultures, that to other cultures are interpreted differently. For example, in one of my cultures, there’s a lot of polite euphemistic conversation, but there’s also a lot of direct hard hitting conversation. In white US culture, the polite euphemisms would be called guess culture, and the direct talk would be called extreme ask culture.
In other words, it will be helpful to understand guess culture by understanding the guess culture existing in your culture.. that you don’t see as guess culture.
posted by many more sunsets at 4:37 AM on August 6, 2019 [30 favorites]
For example, US culture can be incredibly high context and guess-oriented for those who don’t understand it. There’s a great deal of saving face, polite gestures, and focus on decorum in US culture that’s difficult to parse.. again, for those who don’t understand it.
Examples: “let’s hang out sometime!” , “oh, I like it”, “how are you?”, “make yourself at home” as incredible confusing phrases that are coded with high context, respectively meaning ‘see you later’, ‘eh it’s okay’, ‘nice to see you’, ‘welcome to my place’.
This gets more complicated in a professional context, as you are expected to be fluent in several different strains of small talk (family / sports / media / politics / travel), and to switch between them as necessary to find a shared middle ground without actually sharing personally important information. Not to mention that navigating hierarchies and bosses involves a careful dance, acting as if the people above you are your friends, yet strategizing as if they have power over your job position.
This isn’t bad or good or anything, but just pointing out that “high context” can often mean “I don’t understand it”.
In fact, I think each culture has its own ask and guess cultures, that to other cultures are interpreted differently. For example, in one of my cultures, there’s a lot of polite euphemistic conversation, but there’s also a lot of direct hard hitting conversation. In white US culture, the polite euphemisms would be called guess culture, and the direct talk would be called extreme ask culture.
In other words, it will be helpful to understand guess culture by understanding the guess culture existing in your culture.. that you don’t see as guess culture.
posted by many more sunsets at 4:37 AM on August 6, 2019 [30 favorites]
People in Guess culture are "supposed" to do a lot of research beforehand to avoid asking someone for something that makes things awkward. But perhaps being really explicit about low stakes when you have a low level request, and giving people an explicit out, is easier for you. That is, you can try to do some research in the conversation, and leave people lots of "easy outs".
Take this example from the original Ask/Guess thread: an Ask couple calls a Guess woman and asks for a ride back from the airport. The Guess woman feels she can't refuse, and gives them a ride, even though it's incredibly inconvenient for her. Meanwhile the Ask couple would have continued down their list of friend possibilities if they'd known it was inconvenient for her.
One possible Ask ask: "Hey, sorry to bother you! Our ride fell through and we're looking for someone who can pick us up at the airport -- but only if it's honestly not a lot of trouble for them. We have a list of other people we can call, really. If this doesn't work for you, we have a list of nine other people -- after all we don't know, maybe you've already made plans."
Possible Guess answer: "Well, I suppose I could come pick you up. I do have the kids this weekend and I was just putting them to bed -- but I mean if you really really need a ride..."
ASK: "Oh, of course you shouldn't get the kids out of bed! You know, we'll call some of the other folks on our list first, I'm sure we'll find one."
GUESS: "Well if it's an emergency, I don't want you to be stranded..."
ASK: "How about we call you if it becomes an honest-to-God emergency. But right now we'll go down the list of other local friends. If you don't hear from us in half an hour or so [and you won't] please just assume we got home safely. Anyway I'm sorry we bothered you. Please say hi to the kids for us."
[Probably some more back-and-forth of "Well, call me if you need me", "We'll be fine!" until the conversation can end."]
posted by Hypatia at 4:38 AM on August 6, 2019 [24 favorites]
Take this example from the original Ask/Guess thread: an Ask couple calls a Guess woman and asks for a ride back from the airport. The Guess woman feels she can't refuse, and gives them a ride, even though it's incredibly inconvenient for her. Meanwhile the Ask couple would have continued down their list of friend possibilities if they'd known it was inconvenient for her.
One possible Ask ask: "Hey, sorry to bother you! Our ride fell through and we're looking for someone who can pick us up at the airport -- but only if it's honestly not a lot of trouble for them. We have a list of other people we can call, really. If this doesn't work for you, we have a list of nine other people -- after all we don't know, maybe you've already made plans."
Possible Guess answer: "Well, I suppose I could come pick you up. I do have the kids this weekend and I was just putting them to bed -- but I mean if you really really need a ride..."
ASK: "Oh, of course you shouldn't get the kids out of bed! You know, we'll call some of the other folks on our list first, I'm sure we'll find one."
GUESS: "Well if it's an emergency, I don't want you to be stranded..."
ASK: "How about we call you if it becomes an honest-to-God emergency. But right now we'll go down the list of other local friends. If you don't hear from us in half an hour or so [and you won't] please just assume we got home safely. Anyway I'm sorry we bothered you. Please say hi to the kids for us."
[Probably some more back-and-forth of "Well, call me if you need me", "We'll be fine!" until the conversation can end."]
posted by Hypatia at 4:38 AM on August 6, 2019 [24 favorites]
I'm sort of between these cultures.
My mother was once miserable all night because US homes are too damn cold. She didn't ask for a blanket because "Oh, I couldn't do that." By which, I expect, she meant that she couldn't say that she was cold, because that would imply that her hostess was mistreating her or had failed to anticipate the needs of her guest.
On the other hand, I am outraged and mortified when someone makes a request, to which I assent, then proceeds to expand on it, and expand, and expand. E.g., "Can I come to dinner tomorrow?" "Er, sure, I guess." "And can I bring my kids? And my father? And a Bulgarian marching band I recently met while shopping for appliances?" I like this person, but it still annoys me.
My feeling is that if you're dealing with a Guess Culture, you should try to avoid the necessity of posing questions that imply a deficiency. It's OK to ask if they'd rather have Mexican or Chinese, but don't ask if they're hungry. If you do ask, they'll probably say they aren't. Try to anticipate their needs, but be comforted by the fact that (if they're at all well-mannered) they'll appreciate your efforts and put up with a lot.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:58 AM on August 6, 2019 [6 favorites]
My mother was once miserable all night because US homes are too damn cold. She didn't ask for a blanket because "Oh, I couldn't do that." By which, I expect, she meant that she couldn't say that she was cold, because that would imply that her hostess was mistreating her or had failed to anticipate the needs of her guest.
On the other hand, I am outraged and mortified when someone makes a request, to which I assent, then proceeds to expand on it, and expand, and expand. E.g., "Can I come to dinner tomorrow?" "Er, sure, I guess." "And can I bring my kids? And my father? And a Bulgarian marching band I recently met while shopping for appliances?" I like this person, but it still annoys me.
My feeling is that if you're dealing with a Guess Culture, you should try to avoid the necessity of posing questions that imply a deficiency. It's OK to ask if they'd rather have Mexican or Chinese, but don't ask if they're hungry. If you do ask, they'll probably say they aren't. Try to anticipate their needs, but be comforted by the fact that (if they're at all well-mannered) they'll appreciate your efforts and put up with a lot.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:58 AM on August 6, 2019 [6 favorites]
The Culture Map by Erin Mayer includes information on various high and low context cultures, and how to navigate them. It has a business focus, but the principles can be applied more broadly.
The book also includes other cultural scales (for example, different attitudes to decision making and hierarchies) which might be relevant and help your communication across cultures.
posted by Dwardles at 5:10 AM on August 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
The book also includes other cultural scales (for example, different attitudes to decision making and hierarchies) which might be relevant and help your communication across cultures.
posted by Dwardles at 5:10 AM on August 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
In college I read Raymonde Carrol’s book “Cultural Misunderstanding” which also contains the anecdote that Meaty Shoe Puppet références earlier in the thread.
I can’t remember the entirety of the book’s contents but it would likely be an interesting read for you.
posted by raccoon409 at 5:13 AM on August 6, 2019
I can’t remember the entirety of the book’s contents but it would likely be an interesting read for you.
posted by raccoon409 at 5:13 AM on August 6, 2019
This isn’t bad or good or anything, but just pointing out that “high context” can often mean “I don’t understand it”.
Yes! Or, rather, cultures with context I'm used to needing to consider, and cultures with context that I'm not used to needing to consider.
Although this makes me realize that some answers are treating this as a question about crossing cultures, and others as a question about navigating the Guess-ier end of the same culture. It might help if you were to clarify which you meant.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 5:49 AM on August 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yes! Or, rather, cultures with context I'm used to needing to consider, and cultures with context that I'm not used to needing to consider.
Although this makes me realize that some answers are treating this as a question about crossing cultures, and others as a question about navigating the Guess-ier end of the same culture. It might help if you were to clarify which you meant.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 5:49 AM on August 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
I got to say, as someone who grew up in New Jersey and went to college in Michigan, askers and guessers are different cultures even if they are seen as part of a larger (same) culture. There’s definitely more differences to navigate if it’s an entirely new culture but the principles are still there no matter what cultures you’re crossing
posted by raccoon409 at 7:31 AM on August 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by raccoon409 at 7:31 AM on August 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The first step is to begin listening and figure out when your people from the Guess culture could be making requests.
"What would you like for lunch?"
That is a typical opening gambit. If you are not a member of a guess culture you may assume that this is an offer to do you a favour, to provide you with or share the same lunch you prefer with you. However it is only that if the question comes from someone in a position of power over you, who could dictate to you what you are going to have for lunch. If your boss or your mother says, "What would you like for lunch...?" the implied tag that follows is "... because I'll provide it." For anyone else it is the opening of a search for who feels more strongly about lunch, and the expectation is that you will ask them what they want for lunch and then calibrate who actually cares more.
With a guess culture you have to stop and check how other people are feeling because they are not going to insist on telling you. You have to be curious about their inner life.
A guess culture person might say, "I'd kind of like to pick up steamies and coleslaw but maybe you still can't eat hotdogs?" Or a guess person might say, "I'm going out for steamies and coleslaw and fries. Care to come along?" Those are more assertive ways to negotiate something. In the first case they are telling you that they REALLY want steamies, and you better have a serious tendency to nitrate induced migraines before they will change their plans. In this case your options are, 1.) Burst into tears, tell them it's your birthday and if you don't have cake you will cry for a long time, 2.) Tell them you'd love to go along and would be happy to have just the fries and coleslaw, or 3.) Tell them vaguely that you can't make it today, but they should enjoy their hot dogs!
In the second case the first option should have been ruled out. Not that they won't take you out for cake and skip going to get steamies if you do cry, but they will resent it.
In general every request for information about your preferences, mental state, history etc. should be taken as a bid for reciprocity. Of course often these bids are ignored. If you ask a guess person, "Do you ever feel lonely?" and they reply with a shrug, "Sometimes." they are passing on the bid. If they replay with "Yeah, it hits me at work a lot. Sometimes I feel really disconnected and purposeless," they are then supposed to pause and then ask, "Do you ever feel lonely?" There is also is a midrange area where they will reply, "Sometimes. You?" but the brevity of their answer is intended to indicate that while they acknowledge you are probably lonely, they are not ready to fill that need right now. If you ask them and they go on at length about how lonely they are and do not ask you about how lonely you are, they are not a guess culture person, just clueless and not empathetic enough to realise they are being clueless.
In the guess culture you have to calibrate if small talk is a question or not. For example if you are a daughter with a father who feels it is his role to provide for you, it is dangerous to make small talk about things you need, want or like. "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. I put in over time last month but I'm so scared of putting my car repairs on the credit card..." is a solicitation for financial help. "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. But I put in overtime and I can handle this," is a request that the father consider helping but not feel bad about not helping. "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. But I am going to figure out a way. I am determined to do this on my own," is a notification that the daughter may have to swallow her pride and ask for money next month and letting the father know that he may want to start budgeting. Dead silence on the part of money. "Yeah, doing okay," is the way a daughter makes sure that her Dad does not give her any help. If father gives a birthday present of cash, she may up her game to out and out lying, "Doing great. Got some savings!" in order to deflect more help. Of course the savings in question could be an additional $5.29 at the bottom of her savings account which will require her to visit the food bank and the soup kitchen to get through the last two and a half weeks before payday.
Dad, of course gets to refuse. If daughter says, "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. I put in over time last month but I'm so scared of putting my car repairs on the credit card..." Dad can take a couple of different approaches to refusing. "You should budget more carefully. You bought the wrong car so of course you can't cover the bills," is his way of saying "I don't want to help you." It doesn't mean he won't. "Yeah, I know what you mean. Your mother's medical bills are so high. Everybody's drowning in debt nowadays," is the father's way of saying that he can't help her without it hurting. That also doesn't mean he won't help her. It just means that she is going to make him feel bad if she talks about money whether or not he can scrape the money together and will give it to her. In fact, he may have a bank socked full of GIC's and the like, and Mom may have required a 32$ prescription, but it still means it will hurt him if she talks about money and makes him feel he should give her some. It could be that he feels like he is a cash cow and her bank and she is taking advantage of him, or it could be that he is going to the food bank himself and feels horrible that he's not well to do enough to be a provider. Either way talk about money is hurting his feelings.
So let's say you want to ask your girlfriend to outlay extra on a birthday present for you. You know that the normal range for a birthday present between you is about 70$ and frequently is the pair of you going out to dinner together instead of some gift item you can take home, but you reallllly want a new derailleur for your bike, and it costs $230 and you suspect she can afford it and might actually like to get it for you.
"Wow! I keep looking at the derailleur advertised on this biking website. Look at this! Can't afford it. But wow, it's absolutely perfect.... Btw, for my birthday next week, would you like to just hang out at my place and I will make that stir fry you like?"
Notice how you have supplied her with the necessary information. The intensity of your want, the price, the fact that you want her to know about this, where to buy it... and the fact that you are proposing an alternative to the expected birthday dinner out.
You then check her body language. All going well she is looking very thoughtful (there should be a slight frown) and replies, "Ooh, love that stir fry you make!" You are very likely to be getting a surprise bicycle part present.
But perhaps she says, "Why is this one so much better?" That means the cost is a problem or she has missed the reference to it being a birthday present solicitation and is trying to figure out what you are trying to communicate. More information must be supplied about the bike part, and an additional mention of your birthday. If desperate you can mention that you wish you could ask your roommate for the derailleur for your birthday but of course Doug breaks your stuff, not gives your presents.
If you are totally lucky your girlfriend gives a start and says, "How about if I give you the part for your birthday!"
At this point you MUST say, "Really? Can you afford that? That would be so wonderful!!" Guess culture is based on not wanting to make anyone feel taken for granted or imposed upon so you HAVE to acknowledge that you did not expect this and you are delighted and surprised. Thanks must always be expressed in a not-casual way. You have imposed, they have provided, you are grateful. You are NEVER allowed to resent not being given things, even if you do, because expressing that often can lead to a break up in the relationship, the same that making demands can. So gratitude, gratitude, gratitude, never, ever, ever take for granted.
Notice too how the girlfriend asked if she could give that to you for your birthday. She was actually checking if she had misunderstood. You might actually stop short and go, "God, no, that's way too expensive for you!" because you had actually not been hinting at all. Never refuse in so many words if you actually want to accept. "God no, that's way too expensive for you!" actually means "I don't want you do do that!!" and that you were not hinting. If you do want it, but are afraid that you will leave her with a car on blocks walking to work and the food bank, you ask, "Are you sure? really? I don't really need this. We could wait until I get my dentist paid off." Suggestions like this are necessary so that you can calibrate how much you want versus how much it would impose. If she can't afford it but still wants to get it for you, she can then enter the negotiations with, "At least let me pay for some of it." or "How about we pay off your dentist and then we both put some money toward it," or "Maybe if you boot Doug out and I move in with you we could use the money we save on my rent towards new bikes for both of us?"
Remember that guess culture is based on protecting each other's feelings and self esteem and caretaking of each other. The whole intention is that nobody gets to bully someone else into giving or into receiving. Of course it is no better than Ask culture for preventing that. Many a silent daughter who did not want to receive money from her father has been handed an envelope of cash and been told, "I asked your brother and he told me that you didn't seem to have a lot of spending money," or "Here's an installment on your inheritance!" because the father has noticed the daughter's silence on financial matters and has just spent six weeks wondering how much she was struggling, but of course didn't ask her outright. He may even have not asked her because he knew that she did not want money and is over riding her ability to refuse because his desire to be a provider outweighs his ability to protect her feelings.
In a guess culture signals will also come from other people, not just the two in negotiations. "Dad, I am so proud of Brayden. He's trying so hard to make ends meet on his student loans..." may be the response of the daughter after her brother tells her glumly, "Ramen noodles again..." thinking her to be a safe place to vent, since he knows that she has been going to the food bank in order to raise money for her car repairs, so no way is she going to offer him any help that he absolutely must not accept because she is struggling way more than he is. Oops. She guessed that he was soliciting help when he wasn't. Makes you scared to open your mouth at all, sometimes.
Well-to-do Guess people throw gifts at each other hoping some of them will stick. So Braydon's mom, the one with the excruciatingly high $32 medical bill may pick up five outfits for Braydon's little girl and bring them over to the house, "I just found a few little things and they were on special, I could not resist..." and she will listen carefully to Braydon and Braydon's girlfriend to hear which of the adorable little outfits they praise and which ones they say a mere, "Oh, cute, thanks Mrs. Braydon's Mom!" as opposed to, "Look at that, that will be perfect now that the weather is getting cooler. She can wear the long sleeved outfit in the evening when we take her out and it will be even warmer if we layer a long sleeved shirt under it!" which is the opening negotiation for the snowsuit the baby is desperately going to need come November, as opposed to, "Ohhh! I love boutique fashions! The smocking! The smocking is so adorable! Look at the handwork!" which is notification that this kid is gonna be a fashion plate and status is the thing because we already got snowsuits covered.
Practically the worst thing that Braydon's girlfriend can do is say, "Well, uh, thanks very much. I didn't expect this," and then put the clothes away. Mrs. Braydon's Mom will be livid. She is being shut out of her role as a provider in an almost insulting way. The poor girlfriend may think that she is playing guess culture well because she said she didn't expect it, but she has failed to give the feedback that the helpful grandmother needs. The gift is a bid for contact. It may be a useless gift if she brings yet more frilly summer dresses that will be grown out of before they even get worn, but unless Braydon and his girlfriend embark on dialogue they won't get that snowsuit they are going to need. And of course. "Why did you buy her party dresses? I need a snowsuit!" is a very clear way of stating that the girlfriend resents the grandmother and will only tolerate money because she is a money grubbing bitch that Braydon should never have gone out with.
I hope that helps you spot some of the patterns and subtle ways that guess culture people express themselves. Remember only experienced family members who are good at the game can communicate exactly how much money they want with a mere sigh. Guess culture people are used to long apparently pointless conversations that will provide the critical nuances, and they are used to repeating, and going back in order to clarify matters with each other. They won't mind doing this with you. So if your mother in law receives the same hint four times, she is going to be either missing them, or signalling her answer, and will understand if you desperately mention, "Meghan and the baby I will be in town on Friday!!!" for the fifth time and not think you are being ultra repetitive.
If she is answering her response will get more and more obvious with each repetition, "I'm sure Megan will enjoy seeing her home town friends again," "I am looking forward to my Tai Chi class on Friday," "Us old folks don't want to take up your time when you are here to visit friends," "It's a pity I'm going out and can't meet up with you young folks," "No there's absolutely no need to drop in, I have made other plans." "I daresay some of the friends you are going to meet have children the same age as the baby too." "I'm so looking forward to dropping in and visiting the baby at home when we are up near your place," "No, I am not going to babysit that poor fucking baby while you are in town so you and my fucking alcoholic daughter can go out and get drunk again!!!" You can be confident that Megan's mother will expect it if she has to spend some time in these negotiations, while you try to puzzle out what she is replying and she will definitely prefer having to reply multiple times over being pushed immediately to making the that last reply. She may think you are dumb, but that's because you still are. Everyone is dumb about things they haven't practiced. After a few months of this you will become very good at these innocent and oblique but significant conversations.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:07 AM on August 6, 2019 [34 favorites]
"What would you like for lunch?"
That is a typical opening gambit. If you are not a member of a guess culture you may assume that this is an offer to do you a favour, to provide you with or share the same lunch you prefer with you. However it is only that if the question comes from someone in a position of power over you, who could dictate to you what you are going to have for lunch. If your boss or your mother says, "What would you like for lunch...?" the implied tag that follows is "... because I'll provide it." For anyone else it is the opening of a search for who feels more strongly about lunch, and the expectation is that you will ask them what they want for lunch and then calibrate who actually cares more.
With a guess culture you have to stop and check how other people are feeling because they are not going to insist on telling you. You have to be curious about their inner life.
A guess culture person might say, "I'd kind of like to pick up steamies and coleslaw but maybe you still can't eat hotdogs?" Or a guess person might say, "I'm going out for steamies and coleslaw and fries. Care to come along?" Those are more assertive ways to negotiate something. In the first case they are telling you that they REALLY want steamies, and you better have a serious tendency to nitrate induced migraines before they will change their plans. In this case your options are, 1.) Burst into tears, tell them it's your birthday and if you don't have cake you will cry for a long time, 2.) Tell them you'd love to go along and would be happy to have just the fries and coleslaw, or 3.) Tell them vaguely that you can't make it today, but they should enjoy their hot dogs!
In the second case the first option should have been ruled out. Not that they won't take you out for cake and skip going to get steamies if you do cry, but they will resent it.
In general every request for information about your preferences, mental state, history etc. should be taken as a bid for reciprocity. Of course often these bids are ignored. If you ask a guess person, "Do you ever feel lonely?" and they reply with a shrug, "Sometimes." they are passing on the bid. If they replay with "Yeah, it hits me at work a lot. Sometimes I feel really disconnected and purposeless," they are then supposed to pause and then ask, "Do you ever feel lonely?" There is also is a midrange area where they will reply, "Sometimes. You?" but the brevity of their answer is intended to indicate that while they acknowledge you are probably lonely, they are not ready to fill that need right now. If you ask them and they go on at length about how lonely they are and do not ask you about how lonely you are, they are not a guess culture person, just clueless and not empathetic enough to realise they are being clueless.
In the guess culture you have to calibrate if small talk is a question or not. For example if you are a daughter with a father who feels it is his role to provide for you, it is dangerous to make small talk about things you need, want or like. "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. I put in over time last month but I'm so scared of putting my car repairs on the credit card..." is a solicitation for financial help. "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. But I put in overtime and I can handle this," is a request that the father consider helping but not feel bad about not helping. "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. But I am going to figure out a way. I am determined to do this on my own," is a notification that the daughter may have to swallow her pride and ask for money next month and letting the father know that he may want to start budgeting. Dead silence on the part of money. "Yeah, doing okay," is the way a daughter makes sure that her Dad does not give her any help. If father gives a birthday present of cash, she may up her game to out and out lying, "Doing great. Got some savings!" in order to deflect more help. Of course the savings in question could be an additional $5.29 at the bottom of her savings account which will require her to visit the food bank and the soup kitchen to get through the last two and a half weeks before payday.
Dad, of course gets to refuse. If daughter says, "Man, I am struggling to pay my bills this month. I put in over time last month but I'm so scared of putting my car repairs on the credit card..." Dad can take a couple of different approaches to refusing. "You should budget more carefully. You bought the wrong car so of course you can't cover the bills," is his way of saying "I don't want to help you." It doesn't mean he won't. "Yeah, I know what you mean. Your mother's medical bills are so high. Everybody's drowning in debt nowadays," is the father's way of saying that he can't help her without it hurting. That also doesn't mean he won't help her. It just means that she is going to make him feel bad if she talks about money whether or not he can scrape the money together and will give it to her. In fact, he may have a bank socked full of GIC's and the like, and Mom may have required a 32$ prescription, but it still means it will hurt him if she talks about money and makes him feel he should give her some. It could be that he feels like he is a cash cow and her bank and she is taking advantage of him, or it could be that he is going to the food bank himself and feels horrible that he's not well to do enough to be a provider. Either way talk about money is hurting his feelings.
So let's say you want to ask your girlfriend to outlay extra on a birthday present for you. You know that the normal range for a birthday present between you is about 70$ and frequently is the pair of you going out to dinner together instead of some gift item you can take home, but you reallllly want a new derailleur for your bike, and it costs $230 and you suspect she can afford it and might actually like to get it for you.
"Wow! I keep looking at the derailleur advertised on this biking website. Look at this! Can't afford it. But wow, it's absolutely perfect.... Btw, for my birthday next week, would you like to just hang out at my place and I will make that stir fry you like?"
Notice how you have supplied her with the necessary information. The intensity of your want, the price, the fact that you want her to know about this, where to buy it... and the fact that you are proposing an alternative to the expected birthday dinner out.
You then check her body language. All going well she is looking very thoughtful (there should be a slight frown) and replies, "Ooh, love that stir fry you make!" You are very likely to be getting a surprise bicycle part present.
But perhaps she says, "Why is this one so much better?" That means the cost is a problem or she has missed the reference to it being a birthday present solicitation and is trying to figure out what you are trying to communicate. More information must be supplied about the bike part, and an additional mention of your birthday. If desperate you can mention that you wish you could ask your roommate for the derailleur for your birthday but of course Doug breaks your stuff, not gives your presents.
If you are totally lucky your girlfriend gives a start and says, "How about if I give you the part for your birthday!"
At this point you MUST say, "Really? Can you afford that? That would be so wonderful!!" Guess culture is based on not wanting to make anyone feel taken for granted or imposed upon so you HAVE to acknowledge that you did not expect this and you are delighted and surprised. Thanks must always be expressed in a not-casual way. You have imposed, they have provided, you are grateful. You are NEVER allowed to resent not being given things, even if you do, because expressing that often can lead to a break up in the relationship, the same that making demands can. So gratitude, gratitude, gratitude, never, ever, ever take for granted.
Notice too how the girlfriend asked if she could give that to you for your birthday. She was actually checking if she had misunderstood. You might actually stop short and go, "God, no, that's way too expensive for you!" because you had actually not been hinting at all. Never refuse in so many words if you actually want to accept. "God no, that's way too expensive for you!" actually means "I don't want you do do that!!" and that you were not hinting. If you do want it, but are afraid that you will leave her with a car on blocks walking to work and the food bank, you ask, "Are you sure? really? I don't really need this. We could wait until I get my dentist paid off." Suggestions like this are necessary so that you can calibrate how much you want versus how much it would impose. If she can't afford it but still wants to get it for you, she can then enter the negotiations with, "At least let me pay for some of it." or "How about we pay off your dentist and then we both put some money toward it," or "Maybe if you boot Doug out and I move in with you we could use the money we save on my rent towards new bikes for both of us?"
Remember that guess culture is based on protecting each other's feelings and self esteem and caretaking of each other. The whole intention is that nobody gets to bully someone else into giving or into receiving. Of course it is no better than Ask culture for preventing that. Many a silent daughter who did not want to receive money from her father has been handed an envelope of cash and been told, "I asked your brother and he told me that you didn't seem to have a lot of spending money," or "Here's an installment on your inheritance!" because the father has noticed the daughter's silence on financial matters and has just spent six weeks wondering how much she was struggling, but of course didn't ask her outright. He may even have not asked her because he knew that she did not want money and is over riding her ability to refuse because his desire to be a provider outweighs his ability to protect her feelings.
In a guess culture signals will also come from other people, not just the two in negotiations. "Dad, I am so proud of Brayden. He's trying so hard to make ends meet on his student loans..." may be the response of the daughter after her brother tells her glumly, "Ramen noodles again..." thinking her to be a safe place to vent, since he knows that she has been going to the food bank in order to raise money for her car repairs, so no way is she going to offer him any help that he absolutely must not accept because she is struggling way more than he is. Oops. She guessed that he was soliciting help when he wasn't. Makes you scared to open your mouth at all, sometimes.
Well-to-do Guess people throw gifts at each other hoping some of them will stick. So Braydon's mom, the one with the excruciatingly high $32 medical bill may pick up five outfits for Braydon's little girl and bring them over to the house, "I just found a few little things and they were on special, I could not resist..." and she will listen carefully to Braydon and Braydon's girlfriend to hear which of the adorable little outfits they praise and which ones they say a mere, "Oh, cute, thanks Mrs. Braydon's Mom!" as opposed to, "Look at that, that will be perfect now that the weather is getting cooler. She can wear the long sleeved outfit in the evening when we take her out and it will be even warmer if we layer a long sleeved shirt under it!" which is the opening negotiation for the snowsuit the baby is desperately going to need come November, as opposed to, "Ohhh! I love boutique fashions! The smocking! The smocking is so adorable! Look at the handwork!" which is notification that this kid is gonna be a fashion plate and status is the thing because we already got snowsuits covered.
Practically the worst thing that Braydon's girlfriend can do is say, "Well, uh, thanks very much. I didn't expect this," and then put the clothes away. Mrs. Braydon's Mom will be livid. She is being shut out of her role as a provider in an almost insulting way. The poor girlfriend may think that she is playing guess culture well because she said she didn't expect it, but she has failed to give the feedback that the helpful grandmother needs. The gift is a bid for contact. It may be a useless gift if she brings yet more frilly summer dresses that will be grown out of before they even get worn, but unless Braydon and his girlfriend embark on dialogue they won't get that snowsuit they are going to need. And of course. "Why did you buy her party dresses? I need a snowsuit!" is a very clear way of stating that the girlfriend resents the grandmother and will only tolerate money because she is a money grubbing bitch that Braydon should never have gone out with.
I hope that helps you spot some of the patterns and subtle ways that guess culture people express themselves. Remember only experienced family members who are good at the game can communicate exactly how much money they want with a mere sigh. Guess culture people are used to long apparently pointless conversations that will provide the critical nuances, and they are used to repeating, and going back in order to clarify matters with each other. They won't mind doing this with you. So if your mother in law receives the same hint four times, she is going to be either missing them, or signalling her answer, and will understand if you desperately mention, "Meghan and the baby I will be in town on Friday!!!" for the fifth time and not think you are being ultra repetitive.
If she is answering her response will get more and more obvious with each repetition, "I'm sure Megan will enjoy seeing her home town friends again," "I am looking forward to my Tai Chi class on Friday," "Us old folks don't want to take up your time when you are here to visit friends," "It's a pity I'm going out and can't meet up with you young folks," "No there's absolutely no need to drop in, I have made other plans." "I daresay some of the friends you are going to meet have children the same age as the baby too." "I'm so looking forward to dropping in and visiting the baby at home when we are up near your place," "No, I am not going to babysit that poor fucking baby while you are in town so you and my fucking alcoholic daughter can go out and get drunk again!!!" You can be confident that Megan's mother will expect it if she has to spend some time in these negotiations, while you try to puzzle out what she is replying and she will definitely prefer having to reply multiple times over being pushed immediately to making the that last reply. She may think you are dumb, but that's because you still are. Everyone is dumb about things they haven't practiced. After a few months of this you will become very good at these innocent and oblique but significant conversations.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:07 AM on August 6, 2019 [34 favorites]
More thoughts:
Ask yourself, "Why is this person telling me this?" Often, just like any other culture when someone in a Guess culture starts talking they are just spilling stream of consciousness. This is why there is so much checking and cross checking going on. Your boyfriend might mention a derailleur he likes and a birthday dinner he wants to change in the same conversation because he has been thinking about money and in fact wants to have the birthday dinner at his place to save money so he can buy himself more nice things. But he's so interested in bike parts that out in comes. So you are always better off doing some calibration. "I thought you enjoyed our dinners out." "Do you have any plans to try and get the Campagnolo ceramic derailleur?"
Moreover many people in the Guess culture are not good at receiving gifts. If your girlfriend is organizing a surprise birthday party for a mutual friend an exclaims, "I love birthdays!" and you have the lightening thought that she has been hinting for years that she wants a surprise birthday party too, you may end up spending part of her birthday listening through a bathroom door while she explains the part of birthdays she loves is the organizing and the decorating, while various embarrassed friends mill around in the next room. So when you get that lightening thought it's time to calibrate, "All birthdays or just surprise birthdays? Did you ever get a surprise birthday party?"
Giving gifts or providing for people in a Guess culture can be fraught because the older they get the less comfortable they usually are with getting and not being independent. Many Guess culture people age into being only givers and lose their ability to get. This means that you need to reward and reinforce them for things other than what they give and make sure that if they do give they are reinforced for how well they gave it and their ability to say no and not give gifts that wouldn't be right for whatever reason. Your old father in law should be drawn out telling stories about his experiences and shown deference and acknowledgement for his wisdom, "Make sure Poppy has a seat!" "Where do you want to sit, Sir?" may have to take the place of return gifts.
A lot of guess culture people turn into misers because control over what they give and get has been critical over the years. A lot of people turn into Guess culture people because they went through shortages when they were young or at important stages. This means they often go to one extreme or another, refusing to give gifts, or refusing to accept them "Save your money!" or giving lavishly, "If I can't give to my grandson what good is my money!" This is where taking care of their emotional needs is critical: respect, interest and acknowledgement. Sometimes they will accept acts of service where they won't accept things but sometimes they won't except anything, so you have to use the grapevine and give the acknowledgement and praise about them to the people around them. If Poppy won't let you butter him up, telling Bubbe that he's such a wise old man will probably get back to him and not make him uncomfortable.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:51 AM on August 6, 2019 [11 favorites]
Ask yourself, "Why is this person telling me this?" Often, just like any other culture when someone in a Guess culture starts talking they are just spilling stream of consciousness. This is why there is so much checking and cross checking going on. Your boyfriend might mention a derailleur he likes and a birthday dinner he wants to change in the same conversation because he has been thinking about money and in fact wants to have the birthday dinner at his place to save money so he can buy himself more nice things. But he's so interested in bike parts that out in comes. So you are always better off doing some calibration. "I thought you enjoyed our dinners out." "Do you have any plans to try and get the Campagnolo ceramic derailleur?"
Moreover many people in the Guess culture are not good at receiving gifts. If your girlfriend is organizing a surprise birthday party for a mutual friend an exclaims, "I love birthdays!" and you have the lightening thought that she has been hinting for years that she wants a surprise birthday party too, you may end up spending part of her birthday listening through a bathroom door while she explains the part of birthdays she loves is the organizing and the decorating, while various embarrassed friends mill around in the next room. So when you get that lightening thought it's time to calibrate, "All birthdays or just surprise birthdays? Did you ever get a surprise birthday party?"
Giving gifts or providing for people in a Guess culture can be fraught because the older they get the less comfortable they usually are with getting and not being independent. Many Guess culture people age into being only givers and lose their ability to get. This means that you need to reward and reinforce them for things other than what they give and make sure that if they do give they are reinforced for how well they gave it and their ability to say no and not give gifts that wouldn't be right for whatever reason. Your old father in law should be drawn out telling stories about his experiences and shown deference and acknowledgement for his wisdom, "Make sure Poppy has a seat!" "Where do you want to sit, Sir?" may have to take the place of return gifts.
A lot of guess culture people turn into misers because control over what they give and get has been critical over the years. A lot of people turn into Guess culture people because they went through shortages when they were young or at important stages. This means they often go to one extreme or another, refusing to give gifts, or refusing to accept them "Save your money!" or giving lavishly, "If I can't give to my grandson what good is my money!" This is where taking care of their emotional needs is critical: respect, interest and acknowledgement. Sometimes they will accept acts of service where they won't accept things but sometimes they won't except anything, so you have to use the grapevine and give the acknowledgement and praise about them to the people around them. If Poppy won't let you butter him up, telling Bubbe that he's such a wise old man will probably get back to him and not make him uncomfortable.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:51 AM on August 6, 2019 [11 favorites]
Response by poster: Hey, everyone. I am profoundly grateful for all your comments. I've read them all, and I'll go back and read them again and take notes. You've been incredibly helpful.
Yes, I realise now that guess/ask is not the same as low/high context, as meaty shoe puppet points out. In my case, it's a bit of both, coupled with a bit of ego on my part, and a not so great relationship with a couple of people on the other end of the spectrum.
This has been a buffet for thought. Thank you.
posted by Cobalt at 9:09 AM on August 6, 2019
Yes, I realise now that guess/ask is not the same as low/high context, as meaty shoe puppet points out. In my case, it's a bit of both, coupled with a bit of ego on my part, and a not so great relationship with a couple of people on the other end of the spectrum.
This has been a buffet for thought. Thank you.
posted by Cobalt at 9:09 AM on August 6, 2019
A concrete thing you can do is be more proactive than you're used to about offering things. If I visit someone in Boston, I ask them for the wifi password. If I visit someone back home in Michigan, they ask me if I need the wifi password. They make the offer explicit because in guess culture, asking for something that hasn't been offered is a bit awkward.
If you're really serious about an offer, especially if you're offering something big, you sometimes need to repeat it. In Boston, if I offer to pick someone up at the airport and they say "no," I take that at face value. In Michigan, if I offer and they say "no," I mentally translate it to something like "Are you sure? I'd like to say 'yes' but I don't want to be a bother," and I repeat the offer. Sometimes it takes a few times back and forth: "No, no, I'll just take a Lyft." "Are you sure? It's no trouble." "Well... no, I mean..." "Dude, it's fine, I'd be happy to." "Ok, well, if you really don't mind." What's going on there is that they're telling me that my offer is really generous, and that they don't want me to think they take it for granted, and I'm reassuring them that the generosity is sincere.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:56 AM on August 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
If you're really serious about an offer, especially if you're offering something big, you sometimes need to repeat it. In Boston, if I offer to pick someone up at the airport and they say "no," I take that at face value. In Michigan, if I offer and they say "no," I mentally translate it to something like "Are you sure? I'd like to say 'yes' but I don't want to be a bother," and I repeat the offer. Sometimes it takes a few times back and forth: "No, no, I'll just take a Lyft." "Are you sure? It's no trouble." "Well... no, I mean..." "Dude, it's fine, I'd be happy to." "Ok, well, if you really don't mind." What's going on there is that they're telling me that my offer is really generous, and that they don't want me to think they take it for granted, and I'm reassuring them that the generosity is sincere.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:56 AM on August 6, 2019 [7 favorites]
On a related note: I had someone ask me flat out just now: "Do you not want us to come on the same night that your mother is coming?" And my honest answer to this would be "no, I don't want you to, I don't want to have friends and family there at the same time, bad things may happen because I can't mix friends and family!" But I categorically could not say, "No, I don't want you to come on the same night. Please go on the other night even if it is more inconvenient to you." I had to say shit like "technically I can't tell you no, you have free will and I don't think I can dictate that to you. However, my mother has been known to be squirrely when around me, other friends have not enjoyed spending time with her being squirrely to me, I have reasons for not mingling crowds together."
Ridiculous, eh? But I could not say "no, please don't! Everyone will be happier if you don't mix and mingle!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:15 AM on August 6, 2019
Ridiculous, eh? But I could not say "no, please don't! Everyone will be happier if you don't mix and mingle!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:15 AM on August 6, 2019
I come from a Guess-leaning American culture. At the core, I think this Guess culture prioritizes not imposing yourself on others, balanced with expressing care through anticipating the needs of others. This makes face-saving, self-sufficiency, and hospitality important values in the culture. One of the biggest conflicts I see between Askers and Guessers is the differing calibration in when and how strongly to express your desires, preferences, and opinions. Here's an example taken from interactions between me and my Asker girlfriend:
Her: "I don't like broccoli."
Me: (Makes mental note to never serve broccoli. If she made a point of saying that, she really must not like it.)
Her: (Serves broccoli for dinner a week later.)
Me: "Erm... I thought you didn't like broccoli???"
Her: "Yeah, it's not my favorite but I eat it anyway."
Me: o_O
From my standpoint, if someone is strongly and directly expressing a preference or request like that it must be really important to them—important enough to merit imposing it on someone else. Serving them broccoli after that would be a big faux pas on my part—it indicates I haven't been paying attention to them and am not making an effort to make them feel welcomed and cared for.
Likewise, if I offer someone broccoli it's on me to notice the difference between them taking a tiny portion and pushing it around their plate (this person does not like broccoli), them outright refusing the broccoli but praising another dish and taking a larger/extra helping of that instead (this person REALLY does not like broccoli), and them taking a small portion of broccoli while praising something about the broccoli dish (this person probably does not love broccoli, or maybe is just not very hungry, but it's okay to serve it again). Note also that if this person can't eat broccoli for some reason (e.g., allergy) the burden is on them to tell me in advance because it's not something I could reasonably have anticipated.
This is pretty different from the Ask-culture emphasis on overt expression of desires, opinions, and preferences. For a Guesser, Askers come across as over-entitled, rudely taking up a disproportionate share of consideration and conversational space. Guessers have a companion hazard in Ask cultures, coming across as overly passive, rudely expecting others to infer their unstated desires, and sometimes as outright dishonest. So I'd say that's something to be mindful of—try to understand the threshold for when it's appropriate to overtly express a request or refusal, and try to pay attention to the way people signal their preferences while still remaining polite.
Joe In Australia is also spot on about avoiding questions that imply a deficiency. This is especially important when you are someone's guest and causing your host to lose face by implying that their hospitality or effort to care for you is inadequate is a big deal.
posted by 4rtemis at 12:57 PM on August 6, 2019 [10 favorites]
Her: "I don't like broccoli."
Me: (Makes mental note to never serve broccoli. If she made a point of saying that, she really must not like it.)
Her: (Serves broccoli for dinner a week later.)
Me: "Erm... I thought you didn't like broccoli???"
Her: "Yeah, it's not my favorite but I eat it anyway."
Me: o_O
From my standpoint, if someone is strongly and directly expressing a preference or request like that it must be really important to them—important enough to merit imposing it on someone else. Serving them broccoli after that would be a big faux pas on my part—it indicates I haven't been paying attention to them and am not making an effort to make them feel welcomed and cared for.
Likewise, if I offer someone broccoli it's on me to notice the difference between them taking a tiny portion and pushing it around their plate (this person does not like broccoli), them outright refusing the broccoli but praising another dish and taking a larger/extra helping of that instead (this person REALLY does not like broccoli), and them taking a small portion of broccoli while praising something about the broccoli dish (this person probably does not love broccoli, or maybe is just not very hungry, but it's okay to serve it again). Note also that if this person can't eat broccoli for some reason (e.g., allergy) the burden is on them to tell me in advance because it's not something I could reasonably have anticipated.
This is pretty different from the Ask-culture emphasis on overt expression of desires, opinions, and preferences. For a Guesser, Askers come across as over-entitled, rudely taking up a disproportionate share of consideration and conversational space. Guessers have a companion hazard in Ask cultures, coming across as overly passive, rudely expecting others to infer their unstated desires, and sometimes as outright dishonest. So I'd say that's something to be mindful of—try to understand the threshold for when it's appropriate to overtly express a request or refusal, and try to pay attention to the way people signal their preferences while still remaining polite.
Joe In Australia is also spot on about avoiding questions that imply a deficiency. This is especially important when you are someone's guest and causing your host to lose face by implying that their hospitality or effort to care for you is inadequate is a big deal.
posted by 4rtemis at 12:57 PM on August 6, 2019 [10 favorites]
One time I was staying at a friend's house and they made roast. It was...so rare it was lukewarm. It was full of fatty fatty fat bits. I literally could not even fake trying to eat it, it was so gross. So I just pushed it around on the plate until they finally noticed and said "oh, just give it to the dog."
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:20 PM on August 6, 2019
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:20 PM on August 6, 2019
I come from Guess Culture! There are two rules in Guess Culture. 1) It's rude to say "no" directly. 2) The only thing ruder than saying "no" is forcing someone else to say "no". So here's some situation-specific advice:
Asking someone to do a favor: "I'm trying to figure out if I know anyone who could do [favor]."
Making a recommendation to someone: "Wow, the same thing happened to [me/person I know]! [I/person I know] did [recommended thing] and it went really well."
Disagreeing with someone: "I agree! [Opinion that completely contradicts theirs.]"
Ending a conversation: "[look of surprise, as though you've suddenly realized what time it is] I'm sorry to have taken up so much of your time! I'll leave you be, but let's continue this conversation soon."
Declining an invitation: "Oh, maybe!! I'd have to check my calendar first--let me get back to you."
Refusing to friend someone on Facebook: "Oh gosh, I never use Facebook. Can I write down your email address?"
Saying you disliked a recommended book: "Thanks again for recommending that book! I really liked [minor detail]."
And here's some advice for decoding what Guess people are saying to you:
"Hmm, what makes you say that?" = The thing you've just said was incredibly offensive.
"I think I'm busy that day." = I don't want to spend time with you. (The alternative is "I think I'm busy that day, but how about [other day/time]?")
"I'm going to go say hi to [other person]!" = I don't want to talk to you; please leave me alone.
"Thanks so much for thinking of me." = I don't like this gift.
"Thanks, I'll definitely keep that in mind!" = I disagree with your advice and will not do what you recommended.
I also strongly second WalkerWestridge's comment re: refusing to do a favor.
posted by capricorn at 1:42 PM on August 6, 2019 [12 favorites]
Asking someone to do a favor: "I'm trying to figure out if I know anyone who could do [favor]."
Making a recommendation to someone: "Wow, the same thing happened to [me/person I know]! [I/person I know] did [recommended thing] and it went really well."
Disagreeing with someone: "I agree! [Opinion that completely contradicts theirs.]"
Ending a conversation: "[look of surprise, as though you've suddenly realized what time it is] I'm sorry to have taken up so much of your time! I'll leave you be, but let's continue this conversation soon."
Declining an invitation: "Oh, maybe!! I'd have to check my calendar first--let me get back to you."
Refusing to friend someone on Facebook: "Oh gosh, I never use Facebook. Can I write down your email address?"
Saying you disliked a recommended book: "Thanks again for recommending that book! I really liked [minor detail]."
And here's some advice for decoding what Guess people are saying to you:
"Hmm, what makes you say that?" = The thing you've just said was incredibly offensive.
"I think I'm busy that day." = I don't want to spend time with you. (The alternative is "I think I'm busy that day, but how about [other day/time]?")
"I'm going to go say hi to [other person]!" = I don't want to talk to you; please leave me alone.
"Thanks so much for thinking of me." = I don't like this gift.
"Thanks, I'll definitely keep that in mind!" = I disagree with your advice and will not do what you recommended.
I also strongly second WalkerWestridge's comment re: refusing to do a favor.
posted by capricorn at 1:42 PM on August 6, 2019 [12 favorites]
Also, on reflection, my comment may illuminate some of the miscommunication and accidental hurt feelings between Ask and Guess people. Like, sometimes people really do just want to say hi to their friend at a party and they aren't trying to covertly say "capricorn, you are so obnoxious, would you just fuck off" but fully internalizing that for me has taken a lot of, um, deprogramming?
posted by capricorn at 1:57 PM on August 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 1:57 PM on August 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
(FWIW, the way I and other Guessers I know handle the problem capricorn just mentioned is to be double-extra-nice when we're not trying to give the unpleasant inference. Like if I really do just want to go say hi to my friend, and would love to continue the conversation later, it's not "I'm going to go say hi," it's "Oh. Shoot. Sorry, hang on, I really need to go say hi to this person. Are you going to be sticking around for a bit? Ok, great, I'll come find you. So sorry." But yeah, it does mean that Askers who don't know to do this end up accidentally insulting us a bunch.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:25 PM on August 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:25 PM on August 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
The answers here have been great, so I don't have much to add beyond this video about How to Talk Minnesotan, one dialect of Guess. Don't miss Lesson 6 about not accepting until the third offer ("oh no, I couldn't bother you") and the corollary assumption that people are saying no only to avoid imposing on you but actually do want the brownie bar you offered.
posted by salvia at 6:15 PM on August 6, 2019
posted by salvia at 6:15 PM on August 6, 2019
Here's a guide to WASP culture, another context where Guess is often spoken.
posted by salvia at 6:21 PM on August 6, 2019
posted by salvia at 6:21 PM on August 6, 2019
Here is a Metafilter discussion about that Minnesotan video and another Metafilter post on Minnesotan. You might get some ideas from the comments and other links.
posted by salvia at 6:26 PM on August 6, 2019
posted by salvia at 6:26 PM on August 6, 2019
In Guess cultures you are also expected to have more awareness of your physical surroundings.... if you are blocking a doorway or standing in front of the buffet table, guessers will hover on the periphery rather than interrupt to say 'excuse me'.
posted by Ausamor at 2:48 PM on August 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Ausamor at 2:48 PM on August 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
In Guess cultures you are also expected to have more awareness of your physical surroundings
The flip side of this is that in those cultures, people obstructing your passage may actually be doing so deliberately. It might be passive aggression, or there might be a good reason you're not supposed to be going in there. I.e., someone could stand in front of the door to a room while a person inside is changing their clothes, and the fact that someone is standing there is expected to be a perfectly clear signal that nobody should even try to enter.
There is (used to be?) a stereotype that English people waiting for attention or to be served or whatever would automatically form a polite queue. Self-organising queues are Guess Culture in operation: they're a way of avoiding explicit negotiation. Even Ask Cultures resort to them on occasion (e.g., at theme parks) , but in Ask Cultures they often need to be imposed. On the other hand, in Guess Cultures nobody gets the last slice of cake, because everyone is too embarrassed to discuss it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:31 PM on August 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
The flip side of this is that in those cultures, people obstructing your passage may actually be doing so deliberately. It might be passive aggression, or there might be a good reason you're not supposed to be going in there. I.e., someone could stand in front of the door to a room while a person inside is changing their clothes, and the fact that someone is standing there is expected to be a perfectly clear signal that nobody should even try to enter.
There is (used to be?) a stereotype that English people waiting for attention or to be served or whatever would automatically form a polite queue. Self-organising queues are Guess Culture in operation: they're a way of avoiding explicit negotiation. Even Ask Cultures resort to them on occasion (e.g., at theme parks) , but in Ask Cultures they often need to be imposed. On the other hand, in Guess Cultures nobody gets the last slice of cake, because everyone is too embarrassed to discuss it.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:31 PM on August 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:48 PM on August 5, 2019 [8 favorites]