How might my friend talk to her girlfriend about cultural appropriation?
July 31, 2019 8:45 AM Subscribe
“I am Mexican. My girlfriend is white. Something that has been bothering me is that her home has a lot of decorations that I find to be culturally appropriative. I am wondering how to have a conversation with her that would leave us both feeling good. More inside.”
“We are both 37 and have been dating for around 6 months. I have felt since the beginning that many objects in her home are culturally appropriative. I have had a couple of conversations with her about this, but I’m unsure of how to proceed.
I first told her that some of her possessions distressed me two weeks ago. She asked me what distressed me in particular, and I gave as examples a kimono-style robe with Japanese words printed all over it as well as a couple of things with Día de Los Muertos imagery on them. She immediately got rid of these objects, but there are many more things around her home that distress me (posters/prints as well as a glass cabinet filled with a bunch of stuff that looks like it comes from indigenous peoples of the world).
We had a follow-up conversation in which she tried to give a rationale for why she had some of the objects. She basically had two lines of thinking she tried to convey to me: (a) she felt she had a genuine connection to the cultures from which these objects came, and (b) she felt that having these objects was a way of de-centering whiteness in her home. For example, she has a bunch of Chinese stuff in her home, and the rationale she gave for her connection to these objects was that her first two girlfriends were Chinese-American, she speaks Chinese, and that she spent summers there in college. I haven’t told her this yet, but I feel like those aren’t good reasons to possess this stuff, and it makes me wonder: is she going to feel like she has a connection to Mexican cultural because she’s dating me? That would make me feel really uncomfortable. As far as (b) goes, I don’t know how I feel about that reasoning. It kind of feels like she’s actually centering whiteness by causing me to have to have these conversations with her. Even offering these rationales kind of feels like a defensive act of making excuses.
I figure I have three potential choices: try and accept what I see as a flaw in her character, tell her to get rid of a lot of this stuff, or break up with her. I feel like the first option will have me feeling resentment, the second option will have her feeling resentment (due to her general defensiveness around getting rid of these possessions), and I’d rather not break up with her. So with that said, I am not really sure what to do. Do you have any ideas?”
“We are both 37 and have been dating for around 6 months. I have felt since the beginning that many objects in her home are culturally appropriative. I have had a couple of conversations with her about this, but I’m unsure of how to proceed.
I first told her that some of her possessions distressed me two weeks ago. She asked me what distressed me in particular, and I gave as examples a kimono-style robe with Japanese words printed all over it as well as a couple of things with Día de Los Muertos imagery on them. She immediately got rid of these objects, but there are many more things around her home that distress me (posters/prints as well as a glass cabinet filled with a bunch of stuff that looks like it comes from indigenous peoples of the world).
We had a follow-up conversation in which she tried to give a rationale for why she had some of the objects. She basically had two lines of thinking she tried to convey to me: (a) she felt she had a genuine connection to the cultures from which these objects came, and (b) she felt that having these objects was a way of de-centering whiteness in her home. For example, she has a bunch of Chinese stuff in her home, and the rationale she gave for her connection to these objects was that her first two girlfriends were Chinese-American, she speaks Chinese, and that she spent summers there in college. I haven’t told her this yet, but I feel like those aren’t good reasons to possess this stuff, and it makes me wonder: is she going to feel like she has a connection to Mexican cultural because she’s dating me? That would make me feel really uncomfortable. As far as (b) goes, I don’t know how I feel about that reasoning. It kind of feels like she’s actually centering whiteness by causing me to have to have these conversations with her. Even offering these rationales kind of feels like a defensive act of making excuses.
I figure I have three potential choices: try and accept what I see as a flaw in her character, tell her to get rid of a lot of this stuff, or break up with her. I feel like the first option will have me feeling resentment, the second option will have her feeling resentment (due to her general defensiveness around getting rid of these possessions), and I’d rather not break up with her. So with that said, I am not really sure what to do. Do you have any ideas?”
the second option will have her feeling resentment (due to her general defensiveness around getting rid of these possessions)
"I first told her that some of her possessions distressed me two weeks ago"
"She asked me what distressed me in particular"
"She immediately got rid of these objects"
"We had a follow-up conversation in which she tried to give a rationale for why she had some of the objects"
"I haven’t told her this yet, but I feel like those aren’t good reasons to possess this stuff"
Your girlfriend is not being defensive, unless you are leaving out details in your question. In fact, she is being responsive to your concerns - quickly, by your own words.
Be an adult - raise the concern with her and see what she does about it. If her response works for you, then move on. If her response works for you, then you're done. If her response doesn't work for you, then you know what you should do.
posted by saeculorum at 9:08 AM on July 31, 2019 [29 favorites]
"I first told her that some of her possessions distressed me two weeks ago"
"She asked me what distressed me in particular"
"She immediately got rid of these objects"
"We had a follow-up conversation in which she tried to give a rationale for why she had some of the objects"
"I haven’t told her this yet, but I feel like those aren’t good reasons to possess this stuff"
Your girlfriend is not being defensive, unless you are leaving out details in your question. In fact, she is being responsive to your concerns - quickly, by your own words.
Be an adult - raise the concern with her and see what she does about it. If her response works for you, then move on. If her response works for you, then you're done. If her response doesn't work for you, then you know what you should do.
posted by saeculorum at 9:08 AM on July 31, 2019 [29 favorites]
The choice to put the objects on display in a curio cabinet might be a way of getting at it.
It’s one thing to naturally incorporate certain ways of doing things from cultures you’ve been exposed to .
That might very reasonably include household items that you actually use (foods and kitchen things come to mind).
It’s another to have a selected collection of token objects on display as though the decor style is “woke diorama.”
Clothing can go either way, depending on how practical vs performative it is.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:08 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
It’s one thing to naturally incorporate certain ways of doing things from cultures you’ve been exposed to .
That might very reasonably include household items that you actually use (foods and kitchen things come to mind).
It’s another to have a selected collection of token objects on display as though the decor style is “woke diorama.”
Clothing can go either way, depending on how practical vs performative it is.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:08 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
Honestly, you probably need to break up with her if you are thinking about this in terms of "flaw in her character" based on her home décor. That sounds like a fundamental disagreement and that's not the kind of thing that you can just get over and forget about. I certainly wouldn't want to continue to be with someone who thought that way about me, for whatever reason ...
posted by mccxxiii at 9:09 AM on July 31, 2019 [103 favorites]
posted by mccxxiii at 9:09 AM on July 31, 2019 [103 favorites]
You're going to get a lot of different responses on this one. My feeling is that it is not appropriation merely to possess objects from another culture (though there are many ways it can be). It sounds like your GF has a sincere interest in Chinese culture--she speaks one of the languages, she's spent significant time there, so if she has relics of her experiences, I don't think that's inherently appropriation.
However. I'm sure you are a reasonable person, and therefore I think something about her attitude is rightly troubling you, even if the possessions in question aren't really objectionable. I would try to think about that more than getting into a fight about the Chinese t-shirts or whatever per se. Does she do or say things that make you feel othered or fetishized? Has she done things that make you feel like she thinks she's getting "Mexican by association" or some such? If she does that habitually, it does seem like you have a choice between trying to educate her about what she does or breaking up with her. But if you try the former, you're very likely going to end up with a lot of defensiveness and neither of you feeling good--at least, not at first. I don't know that there's any way to tell us white people that we're being jerks that doesn't provoke defensiveness. That's something you're going to have to weigh out for yourself--I just wanted to suggest a potential reframing, because I think if you felt comfortable with her underlying attitudes/approaches you probably wouldn't be bothered by the objects, unless they're religious or otherwise unusual, and if you don't feel comfortable with them, getting rid of the objects ultimately won't help.
posted by praemunire at 9:11 AM on July 31, 2019 [19 favorites]
However. I'm sure you are a reasonable person, and therefore I think something about her attitude is rightly troubling you, even if the possessions in question aren't really objectionable. I would try to think about that more than getting into a fight about the Chinese t-shirts or whatever per se. Does she do or say things that make you feel othered or fetishized? Has she done things that make you feel like she thinks she's getting "Mexican by association" or some such? If she does that habitually, it does seem like you have a choice between trying to educate her about what she does or breaking up with her. But if you try the former, you're very likely going to end up with a lot of defensiveness and neither of you feeling good--at least, not at first. I don't know that there's any way to tell us white people that we're being jerks that doesn't provoke defensiveness. That's something you're going to have to weigh out for yourself--I just wanted to suggest a potential reframing, because I think if you felt comfortable with her underlying attitudes/approaches you probably wouldn't be bothered by the objects, unless they're religious or otherwise unusual, and if you don't feel comfortable with them, getting rid of the objects ultimately won't help.
posted by praemunire at 9:11 AM on July 31, 2019 [19 favorites]
(P.S. The "decentering whiteness" line is weird and troubling. There's no way to systematically "decenter whiteness" in a white person's home. Certainly not by collecting stuff.)
posted by praemunire at 9:13 AM on July 31, 2019 [19 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:13 AM on July 31, 2019 [19 favorites]
I think it's maybe a little weird to expect people of one specific group to own or love or wish to look at only things associated with that one particular group. If she has responded positively so far, that's great, but if she is operating in good faith, then I'm not sure where this goes, either.
If she studied Chinese and she spent time in China, it makes sense that she would have Chinese things in her home. I am thinking about this, and I don't know how you can expect her to NOT have this kind of thing around -- if she took calligraphy, for example, when she was in China, would you expect her to have erased this part of her life in order that she not "appropriate" the culture in this instance? It might help to think about how she could help make you comfortable with these things. If the answer is that she cannot do anything to make you feel better about it, then I guess you can't be with this girl, unless you want her to erase her past.
If your family has specifically Mexican traditions, and you ended up being with this person long-term, how would you want her to be a part of those traditions? Would it feel appropriative to you if she participated in Dia de los Muertos (for example) as part of your family?
The "decentering whiteness" thing is a weird comment, and if you're up to it, you might help her understand what "decentering whiteness" actually means. If she is really into social justice in that way, she will theoretically be receptive, but as a person of color, it is also not your job to do all this work if you don't want to do it.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:15 AM on July 31, 2019 [41 favorites]
If she studied Chinese and she spent time in China, it makes sense that she would have Chinese things in her home. I am thinking about this, and I don't know how you can expect her to NOT have this kind of thing around -- if she took calligraphy, for example, when she was in China, would you expect her to have erased this part of her life in order that she not "appropriate" the culture in this instance? It might help to think about how she could help make you comfortable with these things. If the answer is that she cannot do anything to make you feel better about it, then I guess you can't be with this girl, unless you want her to erase her past.
If your family has specifically Mexican traditions, and you ended up being with this person long-term, how would you want her to be a part of those traditions? Would it feel appropriative to you if she participated in Dia de los Muertos (for example) as part of your family?
The "decentering whiteness" thing is a weird comment, and if you're up to it, you might help her understand what "decentering whiteness" actually means. If she is really into social justice in that way, she will theoretically be receptive, but as a person of color, it is also not your job to do all this work if you don't want to do it.
posted by Medieval Maven at 9:15 AM on July 31, 2019 [41 favorites]
I think most of the responses so far are very widely missing the mark.
I personally deeply understand where you are coming from regarding talking with someone who decorates their home with the aesthetics of appropriation & 'artifact display'. I know some acquaintances who are white that are like this -- they treat their home as a museum, as if other cultures produce "art objects" ready to be displayed and "shown off". It's often othering under the name of "appreciating culture". I personally cringe when I go into someone's home like when they have objects coming from my culture.
I think you could think of this as a good opportunity to start talking about race in general. This goes way deeper, and if she's someone you really care about, it might be helpful to start some longer-term conversations about race.
posted by many more sunsets at 9:23 AM on July 31, 2019 [4 favorites]
I personally deeply understand where you are coming from regarding talking with someone who decorates their home with the aesthetics of appropriation & 'artifact display'. I know some acquaintances who are white that are like this -- they treat their home as a museum, as if other cultures produce "art objects" ready to be displayed and "shown off". It's often othering under the name of "appreciating culture". I personally cringe when I go into someone's home like when they have objects coming from my culture.
I think you could think of this as a good opportunity to start talking about race in general. This goes way deeper, and if she's someone you really care about, it might be helpful to start some longer-term conversations about race.
posted by many more sunsets at 9:23 AM on July 31, 2019 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted; folks please, if your perspective is "this shouldn't bother you" or similar, again please just skip this. Please answer if you're someone who gets why OP is bothered and can suggest ways to have a conversation.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:24 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:24 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
I agree with many more sunsets. I think if you (OP's friend) are committed to being in this relationship, it's worth seeing this as the first in a series of many more conversations about race and appropriation. In particular, I think it's very much worthwhile to bring up your concern about whether she's "going to feel like she has a connection to Mexican culture because she’s dating [you]" and why this bothers you. That said, you also said you aren't really comfortable having these conversations, and that makes me think the relationship maybe isn't a good match--I think even if she threw out everything in her home that isn't from the US tomorrow, it wouldn't change the way she felt about those objects or other cultures, and her feelings can't change overnight.
posted by capricorn at 9:29 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by capricorn at 9:29 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
You asked "is she going to feel like she has a connection to Mexican cultural because she’s dating me?"
Based on what you say, I think that the answer is yes, but most likely only after some time, perhaps if she also learns Spanish and spends a lot of time in Mexico. Probably not just from dating you. But maybe because she's dating you and having the experiences you have together. Because yes, the evidence is that she does feel like she has connections with cultures that are not her culture of origin if she spends enough time immersing herself (by her own standards) in them.
She seems amenable to change when you say things are problematic. So you could attempt the work to try to get her to understand why what she's doing is not ok and have some hope that it will work out well. But it would also be fine to just move on. I think trying to accept it is probably not going to work, as you'll most likely spend a lot of time in her home with this flaw more or less in your face.
posted by plonkee at 9:32 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
Based on what you say, I think that the answer is yes, but most likely only after some time, perhaps if she also learns Spanish and spends a lot of time in Mexico. Probably not just from dating you. But maybe because she's dating you and having the experiences you have together. Because yes, the evidence is that she does feel like she has connections with cultures that are not her culture of origin if she spends enough time immersing herself (by her own standards) in them.
She seems amenable to change when you say things are problematic. So you could attempt the work to try to get her to understand why what she's doing is not ok and have some hope that it will work out well. But it would also be fine to just move on. I think trying to accept it is probably not going to work, as you'll most likely spend a lot of time in her home with this flaw more or less in your face.
posted by plonkee at 9:32 AM on July 31, 2019 [3 favorites]
And in terms of 'getting her to understand'. I think that this is most likely a 'from first principles', many conversations, long-term project thing. Because if her response was to say 'which specific objects' when you're much more like 'this whole concept is off', she's probably a way away right now from really understanding where you're coming from.
Which again, might lead you to think that it's not worth it.
posted by plonkee at 9:35 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
Which again, might lead you to think that it's not worth it.
posted by plonkee at 9:35 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
I am wondering how to have a conversation with her that would leave us both feeling good.
There is no way to have this conversation that will leave you both feeling good.
If you want to try, I think you need to divorce Problem A "she dated people of Chinese culture and I'm wondering if she'll decorate with things from Mexican culture having now dated me" from Problem B "she speaks Chinese and spent summers in China and I still don't think it's okay for her to have objects associated with those memories." (I mean, I assume she's not hoarding rare and precious museum-quality pieces that should belong to the government of their culture of origin?)
Problem A is a discussion where you'll be able to resolve your concern and it opens up the dialogue to discussing appropriation in general. Problem B is a deeply personal criticism and a moral and ethical judgement about someone, and about their moral and ethical judgement. I don't think any couple that needs to have that discussion should be dating.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:45 AM on July 31, 2019 [40 favorites]
There is no way to have this conversation that will leave you both feeling good.
If you want to try, I think you need to divorce Problem A "she dated people of Chinese culture and I'm wondering if she'll decorate with things from Mexican culture having now dated me" from Problem B "she speaks Chinese and spent summers in China and I still don't think it's okay for her to have objects associated with those memories." (I mean, I assume she's not hoarding rare and precious museum-quality pieces that should belong to the government of their culture of origin?)
Problem A is a discussion where you'll be able to resolve your concern and it opens up the dialogue to discussing appropriation in general. Problem B is a deeply personal criticism and a moral and ethical judgement about someone, and about their moral and ethical judgement. I don't think any couple that needs to have that discussion should be dating.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:45 AM on July 31, 2019 [40 favorites]
I think your analysis of what’s bothering you is really good so far and you should keep breaking it down to get at the real nub of the problem: Would you be okay with the solution of girlfriend getting rid of these objects, regardless of her opinion about them? Would you be bothered if girlfriend got rid of them for your sake, but continues to think there was nothing wrong with owning and displaying them by the reasoning she gave you? And how much does this bother you: is it a dealbreaker?
It doesn’t matter whether you or she are “right” or “wrong” (if such a thing exists on a question like this one); what matters is whether your beliefs and feelings are compatible. It’s a valid choice to say “this bothers me a lot but I want to stick with her anyways” or “this bothers me just a little so I want to break up with her,” or any variation of that.
posted by sallybrown at 9:54 AM on July 31, 2019 [6 favorites]
It doesn’t matter whether you or she are “right” or “wrong” (if such a thing exists on a question like this one); what matters is whether your beliefs and feelings are compatible. It’s a valid choice to say “this bothers me a lot but I want to stick with her anyways” or “this bothers me just a little so I want to break up with her,” or any variation of that.
posted by sallybrown at 9:54 AM on July 31, 2019 [6 favorites]
I think it's ok and important to discuss your concerns with her. If I were in a relationship with someone and something I was doing was making them feel deeply uncomfortable, I would 100% want to know.
posted by donut_princess at 9:57 AM on July 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by donut_princess at 9:57 AM on July 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh, I meant to add: I've definitely seen liberal white women who try, semi-consciously, to "escape whiteness" or earn some kind of liberal bona fides by dating interracially or across cultures, and, wow, it is always an exploitative trainwreck. So if your instinct is that she is one of these--from the way you've framed the post, it might be?--I actually do think you should break up.
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on July 31, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 10:03 AM on July 31, 2019 [10 favorites]
DarlingBri said what I was coming to say so I'll mostly just point at that; it sounds like there are two sets of things going on here, and one is "artifacts related to personal life experiences she has had living abroad immersed in another culture" while the other is "stuff she likes and feels connected to for no particular reason beyond general liking."
The first is a battle I'm not sure you're going to win, or necessarily should - if she feels ongoing personal connections to a place she has lived and a language she speaks, some aspects of her life are probably always going to reflect that, even if she gives the specific items away. There might be some changes that could make you both more comfortable - like, why not display photos of the actual places she lived and has great memories in, versus Generic Chinese-Themed art? Are some of the items personal gifts from friends in China, that might change how you feel about them, knowing their origin? Hard to say without knowing more about what kinds of things she's displaying now.
The second, yeah - as a white person I cannot imagine deciding that having a curio cabinet of indigenous artifact replicas was in some way de-centering my whiteness. On the other hand, I can imagine that in the same way I try to make sure that more of the media I watch and read comes from voices other than straight white Americans, maybe if I were looking for new art for my home, I'd go looking to support artists of color by buying and displaying their work. I'm not sure exactly where the line in my head lives where that becomes appropriation, or if that line is where it should be.
It sounds as if more discussions are going to be necessary, and they likely are going to result in some discomfort on both sides and maybe some resentment that will have to be worked through. That sucks but maybe is what's going to have to happen; I'm not sure it's possible to have that discussion in a way that isn't kind of rough and exhausting during it. If your partner is willing to have those discussions with you, with an open mind and a minimum of defensiveness, this seems like it might ultimately be solveable in a way that you can both live with and feel good about the end result even if the process is hard. If she's not, that's maybe something better to know now than later.
posted by Stacey at 10:11 AM on July 31, 2019 [11 favorites]
The first is a battle I'm not sure you're going to win, or necessarily should - if she feels ongoing personal connections to a place she has lived and a language she speaks, some aspects of her life are probably always going to reflect that, even if she gives the specific items away. There might be some changes that could make you both more comfortable - like, why not display photos of the actual places she lived and has great memories in, versus Generic Chinese-Themed art? Are some of the items personal gifts from friends in China, that might change how you feel about them, knowing their origin? Hard to say without knowing more about what kinds of things she's displaying now.
The second, yeah - as a white person I cannot imagine deciding that having a curio cabinet of indigenous artifact replicas was in some way de-centering my whiteness. On the other hand, I can imagine that in the same way I try to make sure that more of the media I watch and read comes from voices other than straight white Americans, maybe if I were looking for new art for my home, I'd go looking to support artists of color by buying and displaying their work. I'm not sure exactly where the line in my head lives where that becomes appropriation, or if that line is where it should be.
It sounds as if more discussions are going to be necessary, and they likely are going to result in some discomfort on both sides and maybe some resentment that will have to be worked through. That sucks but maybe is what's going to have to happen; I'm not sure it's possible to have that discussion in a way that isn't kind of rough and exhausting during it. If your partner is willing to have those discussions with you, with an open mind and a minimum of defensiveness, this seems like it might ultimately be solveable in a way that you can both live with and feel good about the end result even if the process is hard. If she's not, that's maybe something better to know now than later.
posted by Stacey at 10:11 AM on July 31, 2019 [11 favorites]
My instinct in terms of relationships is that it's best to focus on the relationship you and she are building together rather than relationships with previous partners (who may have felt differently to you and could have eg really enjoyed and felt cherished by her learning Chinese and having objects from their culture around her home - but I think getting into a "so tell me about your OTHER GFs" is usually not a great chat between a couple!). So I think it's probably best to start with a conversation where you talk about what your Mexican culture means to you and what your feelings are about how much a white partner should or could participate in that.
You might start by saying how precious your cultural heritage is to you and that you feel strongly about how certain things ought to happen between you and her in relation to it. You might say "I love sharing this with you, but I would feel really weird if you did this without me" or it might be "I love sharing x with you but I really don't want you to come to y celebration or event with me, that's just for my family." And you can see how that goes. I think six months is an appropriate time to be honest about this stuff and see how she responds to your genuine needs.
Relationships between two people from different cultures can be complex to negotiate - if she seems open to your needs and you can discuss it flexibly and compassionately as partners, then she's a keeper. If she's weirdly defensive or unwilling to accept that you get to set boundaries around your own culture in the relationship then it's good to know that now and understand that either you break up or you'll probably always be troubled by it.
posted by naomialderman at 10:15 AM on July 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
You might start by saying how precious your cultural heritage is to you and that you feel strongly about how certain things ought to happen between you and her in relation to it. You might say "I love sharing this with you, but I would feel really weird if you did this without me" or it might be "I love sharing x with you but I really don't want you to come to y celebration or event with me, that's just for my family." And you can see how that goes. I think six months is an appropriate time to be honest about this stuff and see how she responds to your genuine needs.
Relationships between two people from different cultures can be complex to negotiate - if she seems open to your needs and you can discuss it flexibly and compassionately as partners, then she's a keeper. If she's weirdly defensive or unwilling to accept that you get to set boundaries around your own culture in the relationship then it's good to know that now and understand that either you break up or you'll probably always be troubled by it.
posted by naomialderman at 10:15 AM on July 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
This is a good test of how you and she can navigate big issues with love and care (and if you can't, then this is a good time to find that out and part ways!) I think the issue is deeper than the objects, and it's worth having THAT conversation, rather than focus on the items themselves (though they can come up as part of the conversation of course).
As a white person, I really appreciate the people of color in my life who have pointed out to me when my ignorant or well-intentioned actions haven't aligned with my stated values or their expectations of me as a friend, love, or ally. I hope your girlfriend will be able to appreciate you approaching this in the same spirit. Though I'll say that I haven't always taken it great in the initial defensive "but wait, I don't want to be racist!" reaction, so if she responds defensively initially ... well, take care of yourself, and also to the extent that you can, cut her some slack for that, too, without negating yourself.
posted by spindrifter at 10:25 AM on July 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
As a white person, I really appreciate the people of color in my life who have pointed out to me when my ignorant or well-intentioned actions haven't aligned with my stated values or their expectations of me as a friend, love, or ally. I hope your girlfriend will be able to appreciate you approaching this in the same spirit. Though I'll say that I haven't always taken it great in the initial defensive "but wait, I don't want to be racist!" reaction, so if she responds defensively initially ... well, take care of yourself, and also to the extent that you can, cut her some slack for that, too, without negating yourself.
posted by spindrifter at 10:25 AM on July 31, 2019 [1 favorite]
Honestly, this sounds like a fundamental incompatibility and if I were in your position, I think I would have to break up with her. plonkee raises a very good point above regarding how far apart you guys are on this issue.
I'm sorry. I try to operate on the principle of having to like people the way I found them rather than trying to shape them.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 10:26 AM on July 31, 2019 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry. I try to operate on the principle of having to like people the way I found them rather than trying to shape them.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 10:26 AM on July 31, 2019 [7 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments deleted. Please stick to constructive helpful suggestions for how to have a conversation about this. If your point is about something else, just skip it. If you're a white American who hasn't experienced this from the OP's side, probably sit this one out.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:30 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:30 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think that, you are having a gut reaction to your girlfriend, and you cannot pin down accurately, what makes it about her collection of Chinese curios and "othered" things that bothers you. It's just a feeling, and you don't know how to react to that. That is ok. I'm an Asian woman, and I've dated both inside my culture and outside, and one of my biggest worries was, is this person dating me for me, or because of my Asian-ness? it wasn't something I could put my finger on, the person I was in a relationship with was kind, and loving, but I couldn't articulate my unease about their appropriation of stuff -- I was always thinking, do they like *me*, or am I just more Asian "stuff" that they can use to boost up their yellow fever? So you have to ask yourself, can you articulate why you are feeling uneasy with your relationship? It is totally ok if the answer is no. My husband now is white, and when we got married, we did a lot of traditional Viet things for the ceremony, and I was very firm that my culture was going to be very integral when we had children.
Secondly, I have a bookshelf of things I've collected from places I've visited - Germany, Ethiopia, Australia, France, England, South Africa, etc. I've travelled a lot. What people don't know is that most of the places I've travelled to is because I have family there - being a refugee means that my family is scattered literally around the world. So these mementos aren't me appropriate another culture, but a reminder to me that I have family who loves me there, and is a reminder of good memories. One of my favorite things is a cuckoo clock we got in germany - I remember my uncle haggling with the shop keep in German (my very short, very Viet uncle) and then both of them waving their arms and then having a big hug fest and the shop keep offering us beer aftewards. It was super funny. I'm digressing, but if your girlfriend studies Chinese, and went to China, maybe some of her items have similar, emotional memories for her, as well.
Overall, you're going to have a conversation with your girlfriend, because you are uncomfortable. The conversation is going to make her uncomfortable. But if the relationship is going to work, she will listen to you and your feelings. Best of luck to you.
posted by alathia at 10:49 AM on July 31, 2019 [28 favorites]
Secondly, I have a bookshelf of things I've collected from places I've visited - Germany, Ethiopia, Australia, France, England, South Africa, etc. I've travelled a lot. What people don't know is that most of the places I've travelled to is because I have family there - being a refugee means that my family is scattered literally around the world. So these mementos aren't me appropriate another culture, but a reminder to me that I have family who loves me there, and is a reminder of good memories. One of my favorite things is a cuckoo clock we got in germany - I remember my uncle haggling with the shop keep in German (my very short, very Viet uncle) and then both of them waving their arms and then having a big hug fest and the shop keep offering us beer aftewards. It was super funny. I'm digressing, but if your girlfriend studies Chinese, and went to China, maybe some of her items have similar, emotional memories for her, as well.
Overall, you're going to have a conversation with your girlfriend, because you are uncomfortable. The conversation is going to make her uncomfortable. But if the relationship is going to work, she will listen to you and your feelings. Best of luck to you.
posted by alathia at 10:49 AM on July 31, 2019 [28 favorites]
When you have a gripe about an entire class of objects that your girlfriend possesses, not just one or two items, a "Your decor makes me uncomfortable" conversation is inadequate. In addition, it's verging on controlling because your girlfriend shouldn't have to feel like she needs to redecorate her home just to please you. Even racists deserve personal autonomy within their own homes.
So rather than "Hey, can you do something about your offensive stuff?" you need to be asking, "Hey, so I wonder, what does cultural appropriation mean to you? Are you aware of what that is? What is your understanding of the politics of colonialism and are you familiar with the histories of indigenous peoples? What implications does your knowledge and understanding have on your politics and on your personal choices? How important is this to you?"
Either she gets the importance of this and redecorates on her own initiative, or she doesn't get it (and you break up). There is no possible third way of "She doesn't get it but she redecorates in order to keep me happy," because that smacks of an unhealthy relationship where you have an outsize level of influence on her personal choices.
What you very likely have here is a compatibility issue. I'm sorry it has turned out this way. It sucks when a partner we like very much turn out to have politics that we cannot tolerate. As a brown lady who has had to say goodbye to several otherwise lovely potential partners purely due to political differences, I genuinely sympathize. Good luck!
posted by MiraK at 10:52 AM on July 31, 2019 [22 favorites]
So rather than "Hey, can you do something about your offensive stuff?" you need to be asking, "Hey, so I wonder, what does cultural appropriation mean to you? Are you aware of what that is? What is your understanding of the politics of colonialism and are you familiar with the histories of indigenous peoples? What implications does your knowledge and understanding have on your politics and on your personal choices? How important is this to you?"
Either she gets the importance of this and redecorates on her own initiative, or she doesn't get it (and you break up). There is no possible third way of "She doesn't get it but she redecorates in order to keep me happy," because that smacks of an unhealthy relationship where you have an outsize level of influence on her personal choices.
What you very likely have here is a compatibility issue. I'm sorry it has turned out this way. It sucks when a partner we like very much turn out to have politics that we cannot tolerate. As a brown lady who has had to say goodbye to several otherwise lovely potential partners purely due to political differences, I genuinely sympathize. Good luck!
posted by MiraK at 10:52 AM on July 31, 2019 [22 favorites]
I would say though that *if* you can have the conversation as if you believe that having these objects in your home isn't something that speaks to her character but is a matter of personal choice on which reasonable people can disagree and it happens to be something that bothers you... that is likely to be the way of doing it most likely to leave *her* feeling good and like a good person who is responsive to her girlfriend's needs.
An important question for you would be whether you could do that and leave *you* feeling good. If you feel trying to do that would leave you with such a terrible feeling that you'd feel you'd really betrayed yourself and what's important to you... then either break up with her now (because relationships aren't a court and you can break up for any reason at all) or stop worrying about making her feel good, be very honest about how you feel and see how it goes down.
On a purely relationship level, it's not about "is she a worse person than me?" (because everyone you'll ever date has *some* shit going on that we think is bad, even if it's just the ubiquitous loading-the-dishwasher-wrong) but about "is this badness something that will feel like sandpaper on my eyeballs every day to me if we stick together?" And that's a really really personal thing.
(Personal note: I thought a lot over the years about whether I wanted to find someone who automatically, reflexively understood feminism or someone who automatically understood, reflexively, what it had been to be an Orthodox Jew because I never met a bloke who automatically understood both! There is no right answer. There is only "I think this characteristic will simply be intolerable to me" vs "I think that will not affect my sense of self or my happiness day to day".)
posted by naomialderman at 11:00 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
An important question for you would be whether you could do that and leave *you* feeling good. If you feel trying to do that would leave you with such a terrible feeling that you'd feel you'd really betrayed yourself and what's important to you... then either break up with her now (because relationships aren't a court and you can break up for any reason at all) or stop worrying about making her feel good, be very honest about how you feel and see how it goes down.
On a purely relationship level, it's not about "is she a worse person than me?" (because everyone you'll ever date has *some* shit going on that we think is bad, even if it's just the ubiquitous loading-the-dishwasher-wrong) but about "is this badness something that will feel like sandpaper on my eyeballs every day to me if we stick together?" And that's a really really personal thing.
(Personal note: I thought a lot over the years about whether I wanted to find someone who automatically, reflexively understood feminism or someone who automatically understood, reflexively, what it had been to be an Orthodox Jew because I never met a bloke who automatically understood both! There is no right answer. There is only "I think this characteristic will simply be intolerable to me" vs "I think that will not affect my sense of self or my happiness day to day".)
posted by naomialderman at 11:00 AM on July 31, 2019 [5 favorites]
Something to consider if you continue working through cultural appropriation from her perspective as a white person and your perspective as a Mexican person is whether you are not overstepping a bit by speaking for the other cultures that are represented in her home.
If you think she needs to maintain a white-only relationship with the cultures she encounters, should you speak only from your own perspective as well, and leave the items related to China and other cultures to people from those cultures?
posted by headnsouth at 11:44 AM on July 31, 2019 [11 favorites]
If you think she needs to maintain a white-only relationship with the cultures she encounters, should you speak only from your own perspective as well, and leave the items related to China and other cultures to people from those cultures?
posted by headnsouth at 11:44 AM on July 31, 2019 [11 favorites]
For example, she has a bunch of Chinese stuff in her home, and the rationale she gave for her connection to these objects was that her first two girlfriends were Chinese-American, she speaks Chinese, and that she spent summers there in college. I haven’t told her this yet, but I feel like those aren’t good reasons to possess this stuff, and it makes me wonder: is she going to feel like she has a connection to Mexican cultural because she’s dating me? That would make me feel really uncomfortable.
It is totally fair for you to feel uncomfortable with that possibility for your own relationship, and to discuss that with her, and have a broader conversation about how these practices give you reservations about your relationship's future.
However, it is also possible that her first two girlfriends did feel comfortable with sharing their cultures with her in that way, and that setting boundaries for your own relationship doesn't necessarily mean that you can retrospectively set the same boundaries for her previous relationships.
For example, I'm someone who had previously believed that it wasn't my place to purchase or display cultural objects as pure decor. But one of my close friends is from Mexico, it turns out that she loves bringing back gifts from her trips home, and it would seem more disrespectful for me to say "it is inappropriate for me to own or display this" when she brings me a gift and tells me about its history and craftsmanship than to accept it and keep it. (That said, I'm not going to put them all in a sequestered curio cabinet, so maybe discussing the framing of these objects as kept away from her everyday objects would be one way to approach your reservations.)
I guess the question is: do you think all the objects need to go away, regardless of origin? Is there any sort of history/gifting/memory tie to them that would change your mind about some of them, if not all of them? Not just "I was a tourist and bought this," but if they were gifts from families she knew in a different country, or tied with places where she lived, or works of art that she purchased to support local artists?
That said, "she felt she had a genuine connection to the cultures from which these objects came" as applied to "stuff that looks like it comes from indigenous peoples of the world" sounds really gross if she is picking cultures at random, as opposed to places where she has actually lived, or mementos given to her by people she has actually known. The specific white lady racism of vague "spiritual connections" or whatever is not something you should ever have to put up with regardless of her reasoning.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:00 PM on July 31, 2019 [13 favorites]
It is totally fair for you to feel uncomfortable with that possibility for your own relationship, and to discuss that with her, and have a broader conversation about how these practices give you reservations about your relationship's future.
However, it is also possible that her first two girlfriends did feel comfortable with sharing their cultures with her in that way, and that setting boundaries for your own relationship doesn't necessarily mean that you can retrospectively set the same boundaries for her previous relationships.
For example, I'm someone who had previously believed that it wasn't my place to purchase or display cultural objects as pure decor. But one of my close friends is from Mexico, it turns out that she loves bringing back gifts from her trips home, and it would seem more disrespectful for me to say "it is inappropriate for me to own or display this" when she brings me a gift and tells me about its history and craftsmanship than to accept it and keep it. (That said, I'm not going to put them all in a sequestered curio cabinet, so maybe discussing the framing of these objects as kept away from her everyday objects would be one way to approach your reservations.)
I guess the question is: do you think all the objects need to go away, regardless of origin? Is there any sort of history/gifting/memory tie to them that would change your mind about some of them, if not all of them? Not just "I was a tourist and bought this," but if they were gifts from families she knew in a different country, or tied with places where she lived, or works of art that she purchased to support local artists?
That said, "she felt she had a genuine connection to the cultures from which these objects came" as applied to "stuff that looks like it comes from indigenous peoples of the world" sounds really gross if she is picking cultures at random, as opposed to places where she has actually lived, or mementos given to her by people she has actually known. The specific white lady racism of vague "spiritual connections" or whatever is not something you should ever have to put up with regardless of her reasoning.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:00 PM on July 31, 2019 [13 favorites]
I am a white woman who used to be a little like your girlfriend in that I didn't think much about cultural appropriation and wanted to have things around me from cultures that were not my own. I also spent some time living in another country and felt some sort of "ownership" (so problematic!) of that culture. Today I am very careful about cultural appropriation and seek out conversations and writing to educate myself about it (and am still very much in process as I think through what this means).
This change didn't happen overnight but a large part of what moved my understanding was hearing/reading about the experiences of people whose cultures were being appropriated. Placing my desire to have objects within the larger context of colonialism and white supremacy shifted my focus from "but it's so pretty and reminds me of that time I did X or Y" to "my desire to have something pretty is dwarfed by the pain it causes other people." It also helped me change from thinking "look how cool of a white person I am that I have this thing from another culture" to "I'm participating in somthing I hate (colonialism, racism) by having this thing in my house."
I can't say if having this conversation with your girlfriend is worth your time and emotional labor. But if you do decide to do it, I suggest consider framing it not just as "this is a thing that bothers me specifically" to "this is a thing that bothers a large number of people whose cultures have been repeatedly appropriated through history." If you are interested, DM me and I can suggest a couple of Instagram accounts (yeah, I know...) that have particularly helped me change my thinking on this.
posted by mcduff at 12:09 PM on July 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
This change didn't happen overnight but a large part of what moved my understanding was hearing/reading about the experiences of people whose cultures were being appropriated. Placing my desire to have objects within the larger context of colonialism and white supremacy shifted my focus from "but it's so pretty and reminds me of that time I did X or Y" to "my desire to have something pretty is dwarfed by the pain it causes other people." It also helped me change from thinking "look how cool of a white person I am that I have this thing from another culture" to "I'm participating in somthing I hate (colonialism, racism) by having this thing in my house."
I can't say if having this conversation with your girlfriend is worth your time and emotional labor. But if you do decide to do it, I suggest consider framing it not just as "this is a thing that bothers me specifically" to "this is a thing that bothers a large number of people whose cultures have been repeatedly appropriated through history." If you are interested, DM me and I can suggest a couple of Instagram accounts (yeah, I know...) that have particularly helped me change my thinking on this.
posted by mcduff at 12:09 PM on July 31, 2019 [2 favorites]
Here's a story about how I successfully convinced someone that their cultural appropriation was creepy. It's not a perfect corrolary but maybe it will help.
A few years ago, my Christian friend (or the only one who was an active member of a non-denominational church with a worship team) mentioned to me that his church had done a Passover Seder once. My initial response was "WTF FRIEND UGH WHY GRAR" but in order to discuss it I felt like I had to figure out what, exactly, bothered me. I mean, there's definitely enough matzo to go around! And I've certainly been to Seders where not everyone was Jewish, and I've been to Seders where I was the least observant person, and so I tried to figure out what made this different by asking myself some questions, like: when is it ok for a non-Jewish person to have a Seder? When could a non-Jewish person host a Seder? What about this situation actually takes something away from me or Jews or diminishes something important to me? It was a helpful exercise to get super logical about it, and prepared me for the discussion. This wasn't an intimate or exclusive relationship, obviously, and I knew he would be pretty open to my perspective -- especially if I could articulate it well.
It was helpful to me to break down different use cases (yes, I work in technology, why do you ask) and figure out which ones bothered me. (If you're wondering: Ultimately I was able to pinpoint the bothersome thing (people from a not-notably-Jew-friendly religion hosting a celebration of Jewish survival without Jews ) and suggested that next time they could celebrate with us instead.) I felt like my case for creepiness, if not concrete harm, was rock solid, and I did convince him.
It's not a perfect analogy, but maybe it will be helpful.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:59 PM on July 31, 2019 [10 favorites]
A few years ago, my Christian friend (or the only one who was an active member of a non-denominational church with a worship team) mentioned to me that his church had done a Passover Seder once. My initial response was "WTF FRIEND UGH WHY GRAR" but in order to discuss it I felt like I had to figure out what, exactly, bothered me. I mean, there's definitely enough matzo to go around! And I've certainly been to Seders where not everyone was Jewish, and I've been to Seders where I was the least observant person, and so I tried to figure out what made this different by asking myself some questions, like: when is it ok for a non-Jewish person to have a Seder? When could a non-Jewish person host a Seder? What about this situation actually takes something away from me or Jews or diminishes something important to me? It was a helpful exercise to get super logical about it, and prepared me for the discussion. This wasn't an intimate or exclusive relationship, obviously, and I knew he would be pretty open to my perspective -- especially if I could articulate it well.
It was helpful to me to break down different use cases (yes, I work in technology, why do you ask) and figure out which ones bothered me. (If you're wondering: Ultimately I was able to pinpoint the bothersome thing (people from a not-notably-Jew-friendly religion hosting a celebration of Jewish survival without Jews ) and suggested that next time they could celebrate with us instead.) I felt like my case for creepiness, if not concrete harm, was rock solid, and I did convince him.
It's not a perfect analogy, but maybe it will be helpful.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 12:59 PM on July 31, 2019 [10 favorites]
Responding some more:
I think the larger question is: can you talk to her about whiteness and race? Is she willing to listen to your own experiences and without seeing you as a ‘representative of Mexicanness’? Is she thinking about cultural appropriation and exoticism and how that manifests, herself?
Moreover: does she embody this in her own life? How many other people in her life are not white? Does she understand that she is white? Can you talk about that, also?
Does she understand that dating you or her previous partners doesn’t make her less racist, doesn’t make her less white? Can you gently talk about that too?
I have a partner who is white. (I am not.) It’s taken some time but we talk about race all the time, now. It’s not perfect, but it’s wonderful - I’ve never talked to a white person about race as deeply and thoughtfully before, and she says that this is the first time she’s talking so deeply about race herself.
Over time, the sense of trust and openness that has built up means that we can talk about race, even if it’s about something somewhat weird that she might have said, and to have it be productive and caring. I think that if she’s truly actively interested in having these conversations, then it can be truly wonderful.
And in that context, you might be able really listen to her intentions as to what her relationship to the objects are. Maybe you’ll do find that they don’t bother you as much, or that other issues contain the real friction. Good luck!
posted by many more sunsets at 2:39 PM on July 31, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think the larger question is: can you talk to her about whiteness and race? Is she willing to listen to your own experiences and without seeing you as a ‘representative of Mexicanness’? Is she thinking about cultural appropriation and exoticism and how that manifests, herself?
Moreover: does she embody this in her own life? How many other people in her life are not white? Does she understand that she is white? Can you talk about that, also?
Does she understand that dating you or her previous partners doesn’t make her less racist, doesn’t make her less white? Can you gently talk about that too?
I have a partner who is white. (I am not.) It’s taken some time but we talk about race all the time, now. It’s not perfect, but it’s wonderful - I’ve never talked to a white person about race as deeply and thoughtfully before, and she says that this is the first time she’s talking so deeply about race herself.
Over time, the sense of trust and openness that has built up means that we can talk about race, even if it’s about something somewhat weird that she might have said, and to have it be productive and caring. I think that if she’s truly actively interested in having these conversations, then it can be truly wonderful.
And in that context, you might be able really listen to her intentions as to what her relationship to the objects are. Maybe you’ll do find that they don’t bother you as much, or that other issues contain the real friction. Good luck!
posted by many more sunsets at 2:39 PM on July 31, 2019 [4 favorites]
I figure I have three potential choices: try and accept what I see as a flaw in her character, tell her to get rid of a lot of this stuff, or break up with her. I feel like the first option will have me feeling resentment, the second option will have her feeling resentment (due to her general defensiveness around getting rid of these possessions), and I’d rather not break up with her. So with that said, I am not really sure what to do. Do you have any ideas?”
So, it seems to me that maybe you should think about whether the above three choices are really the only three you've got.
As others here have said, undertaking a hard conversation (or several) is also a choice you could make -- probably the only one that you CAN make if you want to proceed in this relationship in a way that makes you both feel valued and respected (which itself is crucial for any healthy relationship).
But as with all hard conversations in relationships, this conversation is NOT going to be productive if you come into it with the absolute confidence that your read on this situation is the only correct one; that your girlfriend's collection and display of certain items is 100% unambiguously unethical or problematic or wrong.
It seems to me that the only thing that is 100% absolutely true in the situation you've outlined is the fact that you are feeling uncomfortable due to the existence of certain items in her house, and how she has reacted to date re: your discomfort.
Your discomfort should be REALLY IMPORTANT to her. I'd suggest that during your next conversation, you set aside your judgments about her decision to display certain items (because it's not productive to put your partner in the position of defending or admitting their "flaws"), and focus instead on your discomfort (because it is CERTAINLY fair to ask a partner to address the discomfort you're feeling due to their behavior or actions).
A good partner will really really want to work with you to figure out how you two can proceed in a way that makes you BOTH feel comfortable, respected, and heard.
I say you BOTH because you, as a good partner, owe her the same respect and attention. And right now, with you entertaining the idea that you'll need to accept your girlfriend is "flawed," I'd be surprised if she feels heard and respected, either.
If it's impossible for either or both of you to accept that you might have to agree to disagree on this issue -- that your/her feelings on this are also legitimate -- then maybe you two ARE incompatible.
posted by mylittlepoppet at 3:31 PM on August 2, 2019 [2 favorites]
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posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:04 AM on July 31, 2019 [15 favorites]