How do I foster a non competitive art making space?

May 28, 2019 4:40 AM

I’m a visual artist. When I make art with friends, they’ll sometimes say things like “Ugh, my drawing sucks and you’re so good?” I’ll usually reply with something like “you don’t need to put yourself down to lift me up.” How else can I effectively respond to this? I’m looking for both short, friendly comebacks and longer term ideas to foster a healthy artistic community.

For the sake of this question, please assume we’re not directly competing (e.g. for the same opportunity).

posted by yaymukund to Human Relations (17 answers total)

I'd say something like, "Funny how it's so hard to see excellence in our own work. If you could only see how great your art is through my eyes!"
posted by KMoney at 4:51 AM on May 28, 2019 [4 favorites]

Linda Carson who used to run the Big Black Pig art studio class space had a set of rules, number 1 of which was "Never put down anyone's work, especially your own."
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:04 AM on May 28, 2019 [25 favorites]

For a more involved answer, you could point out that contemporaneous to the earliest figurative cave art of wild animals, people were spray painting silhouettes of their hands and scratching patterns in the rock...blah,blah... that art has never been a single-minded contest to create the most realistic images.
posted by bonobothegreat at 5:14 AM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

Best answer: Self-doubting recent art school graduate here.

My profs never told me my art was "great." That was wise of them, because deep down I knew it wasn't true, and had they said that to me I would not have believed anything else they said. Instead, they would tell me something specific that they liked about the work or my particular style before giving me constructive ideas about how to fix something I felt was going wrong. And they reminded me that art is a skill and that building skills takes time, effort, and the willingness to look bad for a while.

I miss my profs already.
posted by all the light we cannot see at 5:17 AM on May 28, 2019 [37 favorites]

If you're always making art in the same space, post some house rules that help define the kind of community you want to make, including something like "we are all on a journey, be positive about all works in progress including your own." Then you can just point to the sign and say "rule number one!"

I can't remember where I got the idea but it's helped me to remember that you can expect maybe 1 good piece from every 100 attempts, but the more you practice the better than ratio gets. Every drawing/painting/etc is worthwhile because it's getting you closer to the kind of work you want to be making.

One time I got really frustrated with a painting and my instructor held it up for me at a distance and asked me what I thought of it then. I had to admit that I kind of liked it. Literally getting some distance helped me.

Finally, I'm guessing anyone making those kinds of comments is feeling anxious and not in the zone, so I'd probably share some vulnerability with them to help remind them that we're all on a journey and I also have days when I can't seem to make anything I like. Group exercises can also help with that sort of thing. And just talking it out, if you have time - "what's up, why are you frustrated" - someone who's had a long day at work probably needs to do a few stretches and some warm-up drawings. Someone feeling anxious about whether they really belong in an art community might just need some reassurance.
posted by bunderful at 5:43 AM on May 28, 2019 [3 favorites]

And while you're building this art space you can be having conversations with your friends like "I really want to create a positive, nurturing community where we build each other up - what makes you feel self-critical? and when you get into that headspace, what helps you?"
posted by bunderful at 5:52 AM on May 28, 2019 [4 favorites]

I wonder if letting such comments pass with minimal or no acknowledgement might be another strategy?

I am an artist who cannot seem to help being self-critical, it's almost reflexive for me, kind of like grunting when I bend to pick up something off the floor. Doesn't necessarily mean anything. I'm just giving vent to some of the anxiety I feel when I say such things; I just say it and move on, and it's not my defining attitude towards my art.

However, I am also a parent, and I know that the best way to get my kids to stop an annoying habit is to (a) avoid reinforcing it in the moment by positive or negative attention, and (b) instead redirect focus to something more constructive.

So if (haha! IF! purely hypothetical! definitely not something that's making my life hell at the moment!!) my kid is stuck in some weird phase where bedtime makes her freak the fuck out like the world is ending, then instead of either coddling her through the tantrum or threatening her with punishment to make her stop it, I redirect her focus to other minutiae surrounding bedtime which she enjoys, e.g. pick out which stuffed animal is going to sleep with you tonight. It may or may not be working, but all the parenting books say to do this, so help me god. It will probably work on adults too. I think my therapist uses it on me, the sneaky bastard.
posted by MiraK at 6:00 AM on May 28, 2019 [7 favorites]

If you want a truly supportive space, I would steer away from ideas like "no putting down your own work." As I'm sure you know, being able to be critical of one's work is a useful skill and it is often lost in cries of "positivity only!"

Like, it is reasonable to try something and hate how it comes out! It is reasonable to be like, damn how is this other person so good? If anything, I think pushing people to identify what is "good" about yours vs. theirs helps them to see where they might want to focus attention and helping people think through to specifics is a great gift.

Which I think points to a bigger question. What is the goal of this space? Is it to be a judgement-free place to noodle or a group that is pushing everyone to improve? Both are terribly valuable, but the goal will lead to different responses.

Overall, I think all the light we cannot see's advice is great if you want to put in the effort. If you want something a little simpler, reminding people that art skill takes practice and they are just seeing you much further along the road is a useful tack.

ETA: This all comes from the perspective of being an artist as well, although one who started kinda late on traditional media, so has totally been there.
posted by dame at 6:12 AM on May 28, 2019 [15 favorites]

Dame's advice seems right on to me, and I'd also like to suggest that I don't think these comments reflect competition, with you or anyone else. They are about admiration for your work, longing to emulate you, and wanting to improve. Which are fine sentiments!
posted by shadygrove at 6:42 AM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

How close are you and these other people, in terms of years of work/practice, quantity and quality of training, and sales/professional accolades? I ask because that makes a big difference in terms of how people perceive power/skill differentials. If you are largely in similar spots and it's just self-deprecating artist negative-think, other people up-thread have got this. If you're notably more experienced/trained/recognized, then I might have some useful things to say:

When I was a teenage wanna-be artist trying to "catch up" with significantly more skilled/experienced/trained peers, I said things like that. In hindsight, I think they were largely inappropriate things to say to my artist friends. They didn't feel like there was a race -- they were just doing things they loved. I definitely felt competitive, in terms of "I want to be able to do that too." Nothing anyone could say would've talked me out of it, to be honest -- in a very concrete sense the people I was comparing myself to had more training, more support, and just more hours of practice. Being so bitter and jealous about that (there was a class component) did not make me pleasant to be around, but it did push me to do a bunch of things that ended up positive for myself, like devoting time to practicing, working hard and taking on additional challenges to prove, mostly to myself, that I could do it. At this point in my life I say "I got to some good outcomes in a not-particularly-good way." There are people from that time in my life who legit won't speak to me anymore, and they're justified.

I'm not sure how you talk someone like I was at that time into a better head-space, particularly as one of the more-talented people who make it look easy. Probably some variant of "I disagree with you, and I would prefer if you didn't make our friendship about that?" How well that is received probably depends on a lot of factors. Is there any chance you can convince other people who are closer to the perceived experience-level of the person who's being negative to talk with them? It might be better-received.
posted by Alterscape at 8:31 AM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

To avoid abusing the edit window: I want to 1000% second what "all the light we cannot see" said up-thread -- people like me are very good at recognizing generic platitudes like "but I love yours too!" No, you don't, at least not without reservation -- you know my work has flaws and you're trying to be kind. If someone is in a particularly negative head-space, it's easy to interpret comments like that as condescension, no matter how kindly you intended it. To avoid that perception, do as all the light suggests: If they're doing specific things well, specifically recognize them! If they're doing specific things poorly, give constructive feedback about that!
posted by Alterscape at 8:36 AM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

Yeah, being specific is just about the only friendly way to deal with this. "What don't you like about yours?" and on from there.

I feel you. I stopped sharing art with my friends for this reason. A lot of people in this thread are concerned about the self-defeating artists' feelings, but you have feelings, too. Hearing this stuff over and over again for years really grinds down your will to share yourself with others. It's not fun to be used by someone to put themselves down. Of course they don't intend it that way, but there it is.

Platitudes don't work, lectures don't work. Ignoring the comments is definitely merited, but people sure don't read it as friendly. If you have the energy to help, specificity is the way to go.

I don't hear this stuff much anymore because I don't share much anymore, but when I still did, I would also tell people that if they were going to compare themselves to other artists, they might as well give up now. I'll never be as good as Titian because we're different people doing different kinds of art. It's a fundamentally nonsensical comparison. The only person you can compare yourself to is your past self.
posted by the liquid oxygen at 8:55 AM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

People respond best to partial reinforcement. For someone's best work, praise. For someone's less good work, constructive suggestions. Technical skill is only one aspect of art. I've seen art on the walls of elementary schools that I enjoyed looking at.
posted by SemiSalt at 11:17 AM on May 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

"Hey friend, you might not know this but I've noticed that you can be critical of your own work from time to time. What you might not notice is that many people, including myself, look up to you and your work. When you criticize yourself, you are criticizing everyone who respects and admires you.

I have chosen to respect my work, because I acknowledge that others respect my work as well. It is not always easy, but it is a choice I have made. I believe it helps me focus on the life-long journey as an artist, and it also makes it easier for me to function in a community of artists.

I'd like to ask you to think about making the same decision."
posted by rebent at 11:46 AM on May 28, 2019

If you're a professional and they're not (and if they're not serious amateurs either) then there's no reason to read either self-hatred or compliment-fishing into their words. "my art sucks" doesn't matter deeply to someone whose art isn't important to them! so countering with a patronizing directive to them not to put themselves down, when they already weren't, is a bad idea.

if they are serious amateurs, or if you don't know how much they care about it: say -- genuinely -- "What don't you like about it?" get them to analyze it a little bit instead of just dismissing it. they might be frustrated about something specific or technical ("I can't get the perspective right," or whatever) that you could respond to with encouragement or advice without having to offer insincere praise.

if you think their work is good and they're just too self-critical, or too self-conscious next to you, say Oh, I'm glad you like mine, but I actually really like yours because of the way you etc. etc.

if it just annoys you and you want to shut it down, say "thanks" to the compliment part and nothing at all to the part you don't want to hear. but don't try to school them about it. (I don't assume they're women or that if they are, it's necessarily ritualized feminine humility. but if they are and it is, it isn't deeply felt -- "you're better than me" in that language is a piece of politeness, no more sincere or insincere than "hello" or "excuse me." you don't have to return it but it would be rude to pretend you thought they were serious.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:46 PM on May 28, 2019

Response by poster: Thank you everyone. This is very helpful and gives me some ideas.

To address some of your questions, I'm making art with very close friends and there's mutual capacity and interest in talking about our feelings. I think they all have different goals. For example, one of my friends has said they want to write comics and eventually earn money doing illustration. Another seems to be more interested in processing trauma and doesn't care about selling their work, though we haven't actually talked about it. We're united by our friendship and our desire to make art around friends more than shared artistic goals.
posted by yaymukund at 2:09 AM on May 29, 2019

Several others have mentioned “constructive criticism”. I’m very much a Believer. But I’ve noticed that a lot of people are not good at constructive criticism. Essentially, I just want to suggest that perhaps people could use a bit of education on constructive criticism and how to do it effectively. The profs that all the light we cannot see misses sound like they’ve got a good handle on it - but I’ll bet you a dollar that their skill didn’t come naturally; it was something that they learned.
posted by doctor tough love at 7:18 AM on May 29, 2019