Suspect illegal activity near home

May 16, 2019 10:23 AM

I am pretty sure there is a meeting place for illegal activity in the parking lot near my condo. What, if anything, should I do about this?

I live in a nice neighbourhood in an urban area. Across the alley from my condo is a church with a parking lot. I observe people loitering in the church parking lot on a regular basis.

At least once a week, when I take the dog out for a walk at 10:30 or 11 PM there is a person hanging around this parking lot. Usually this person will be sitting on the concrete of the church and smoking, but sometimes the person will be standing around. There are at least a few people frequenting this location. This morning, I dropped off my daughter at school and returned home at 8:30. The same individual was there when I left and returned, and had quite the look on his face when he saw me return in the same car I left with.

I have never seen a drug transaction take place in this lot. I have only seen one needle in this alley, if there is trade there at least is not a lot of irresponsible active use in the area.

Even though I don't have any hard evidence, these facts suggest to me that there is drug trade or prostitution meetups in this parking lot. Is there another explanation? Mostly I am unhappy that my 12 year old daughter lives in close proximity to this kind of thing.

Should I do anything about this? I wish the problem would go away on its own, but wishing and glaring at people hanging around when I walk or drive by are not doing anything. Things I will not do:

• Move. I like my place. This city has a drug problem, and moving will not solve the problem.
• Do any detective work to catch someone in the act so I can call at that moment. I have a life that does not revolve around this activity.
• Talk to the loitering individuals. While I do feel safe enough to walk around at any hour, I do not feel safe approaching the individuals.
• Install cameras or modify property in any way - I rent.

posted by crazycanuck to Home & Garden (33 answers total)

Is there another explanation?
Yeah, thousands. When I used to smoke, or just needed to kill some time in an urban area without spending money, churches were a good place to go, because they were a little less likely to flip out about people existing in public.

It could be people waiting for a church event, it could be people designating a safe and open space to meet to sell baseball cards on Craigslist. It could be the neighborhood watch. It could be a walking club. I suppose it could be something illegal too, but hey, people are probably doing illegal things every day right in your condo complex.
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:31 AM on May 16, 2019 [31 favorites]

Have you called the cops and asked them to just drive by every now and then at that time? Often that can be enough to have people move elsewhere. And since you are in a ‘nice’ area, they will be more likely to check it out.
posted by MountainDaisy at 10:32 AM on May 16, 2019 [1 favorite]

Somebody should just talk to them. Maybe a friend of yours. Ask questions first. That's probably what a detective would do.
posted by amtho at 10:34 AM on May 16, 2019

The same individual was there when I left and returned, and had quite the look on his face when he saw me return in the same car I left with.

I don't quite understand /what you're getting at here...what impression did you get? Why would someone make a face at seeing you in the same car you left with?
posted by agregoli at 10:34 AM on May 16, 2019 [15 favorites]

Just as a point of clarity: "Mostly I am unhappy that my 12 year old daughter lives in close proximity to this kind of thing." - if your daughter is 12, and this is happening at 1030-11pm, she isn't anywhere near it, so it absolutely doesn't even get close to affecting her.

I think you are being a touch paranoid. If something *bad* was happening, you'd have a ton less ambiguity. Ignore it and if it gets obvious what is happening at a later date, THEN worry about what to do.
posted by Brockles at 10:36 AM on May 16, 2019 [14 favorites]

Should I do anything about this?

No.

I think I live in the same city as you, and I'm finding it hard to wrap my head around the idea of "people loitering in the church parking lot" being a problem. It's an urban area where people hang out in public and semi-public spaces, if they're not bothering me I don't bother them. The police have bigger fish to fry.
posted by ripley_ at 10:37 AM on May 16, 2019 [7 favorites]

Some people are hanging out by a church? And they aren't bothering you? Leave them alone unless you actually witness some violence or something else that's clearly hazardous.
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:38 AM on May 16, 2019 [15 favorites]

On preview: Yeah, cops might not be the best idea, sadly. Very sadly. And definitely do not call the cops if people there are not white.

Another option is to ask your neighbors if they have seen anything dangerous going on and get an idea if there is, or it’s just people hanging out.
posted by MountainDaisy at 10:38 AM on May 16, 2019

Your only options as I see it are 1) Call the cops and express your concern. 2) Ignore it.

Whether the cops will do anything about it probably depends on the size of your city, the size of their force, and how bored they are. They might swing by to check the area. They might ignore you completely. If this bothers you, you lose nothing by just mentioning it to them.

For what it's worth, I read a news story about a lady calling the cops on a guy who "suspiciously" parked in front of her house every day for a while. The guy was just eating a sandwich in his car on his lunch break.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:39 AM on May 16, 2019 [3 favorites]

The fact that it's a church gives me pause. Churches often run social programs for the less fortunate, and I could easily see the people in the parking lot being otherwise-homeless people to whom the church is giving shelter, or people who are partaking of the church's food pantry or free clinic. Alternatively, they could be people who work at one of those services who needs a break from the pressure, so they're hanging out in the parking lot for a couple of minutes. Churches are one of the few places that welcome vulnerable people, and it shouldn't be surprising that vulnerable people are at a church.

My first inclination is to talk to someone at the church. Do they know these people are there? Are they welcome? (If the church isn't willing to disperse them, then yes, they're implicitly welcome.) If not, it's the church's responsibility to get rid of them.

It might also be worth talking to your landlord. Of course they'll assure you that everything is fine and that you're safe, but presumably they'll be interested in anything that would affect the desirability of their rentals.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:39 AM on May 16, 2019 [32 favorites]

I see a lot of people smoking and loitering around a church near me. There are AA and NA meetings held in the basement and these folks are often waiting for the meeting to start or on a break.

Nthing don't call the cops.
posted by pilot pirx at 10:40 AM on May 16, 2019 [52 favorites]

Nothing. You do nothing. You have no reason to suspect illegal activity other than your own projection of what scary things people loitering in a parking lot might be doing. As mentioned above, there could be thousands of perfectly valid reasons people are congregating in the that location, none of which concern you. Unless you actually witness something illegal occurring, mind your own business and go about your day.

There have been numerous other AskMes like this. There's usually not a lot of sympathy for the Asker.
posted by gnutron at 10:40 AM on May 16, 2019 [10 favorites]

Yeah, tell the church. If they know the people, they’ll know what they’re up to. If they don’t know the people, they’re about to.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:41 AM on May 16, 2019 [2 favorites]

Honestly, it seems to me that you have two competing wants here: You want to change people's behavior but you also don't want to get involved.

Even assuming that the activity is illegal, which is not a safe assumption, you don't have many options here. Putting aside the ethics of calling law enforcement on non-violent crime that isn't affecting you, there's no guarantee that they could or would do anything. And given that you've already been glaring at them, there's a risk that even they were doing something illegal and even if law enforcement did do something, they'd suspect you were the one that called. Right now you're pretty worried despite it not involving you. Do you want to become involved? I don't think it'd help your peace of mind.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:41 AM on May 16, 2019

There's a church near where I live, in an older residential neighbourhood on the edge of the town core. People often hang out in front of the church, smoking cigarettes and so on. They actually go to the church, and attend church events.

In this case, what are the chances these people are experiencing homelessness, and are sleeping in the church parking lot?

I'm not shy about calling the cops, but in this case if there is no threat and there is no "bad" activity, why would you bother?
posted by JamesBay at 10:42 AM on May 16, 2019 [6 favorites]

Nthing "Nothing". Everything you've described says "AA meeting" way more than "drug dealing".
posted by Etrigan at 10:44 AM on May 16, 2019 [20 favorites]

If this part of your post was serious, I’d advise against it.

glaring at people hanging around when I walk or drive by

Glaring at strangers who aren’t doing anything to you is rude and aggressive. And if these folks are somehow dangerous as you seem to suggest, you’d be provoking them.

I agree with others that leaving them alone is your best option. Drugs exist; your daughter already exists in a world where people buy and sell drugs.

To me it seems you may be profiling these folks since you haven’t actually seen any crime taking place, so you may want to ask yourself about that.
posted by kapers at 10:49 AM on May 16, 2019 [7 favorites]

I wish the problem would go away on its own

I'm missing something here. What actually is the problem?
posted by metasarah at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2019 [10 favorites]

Churches are one of the few places that welcome vulnerable people, and it shouldn't be surprising that vulnerable people are at a church.

This is exactly what I came to say. I will bet a lot of money that these people are there because they are being welcomed by the Church, and are taking advantage of social services that this Church provides.

Anyway, nothing you've described here is in the least bit illegal, and you're imagining trouble where none exists. Do nothing. Don't be that neighbor. (Maybe check the Church website, and I bet you'll see the AA, NA, Food Pantry, and other services that these people are using.)
posted by anastasiav at 10:58 AM on May 16, 2019 [11 favorites]

I see a lot of people smoking and loitering around a church near me. There are AA and NA meetings held in the basement and these folks are often waiting for the meeting to start or on a break.

Absolutely this! Churches host all sorts of events for folks who might not be inclined to share details if you spoke to them personally.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:01 AM on May 16, 2019 [4 favorites]

Random anecdote, which may or may not be helpful. A church near my condo hosts Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Not all AA members, but some of these folks smoke. Some of them ride motorcycles. Some of them look totally inconspicuous.

Should you do anything about this? My unsolicited suggestion:

Talk to your 12 year old daughter about how she can navigate safely in our world. By staying alert and learning to recognize the people in her neighbourhood. Not by fear-mongering.
posted by Juniper Toast at 11:06 AM on May 16, 2019 [12 favorites]

There are tons of reasons why you might see the same people hanging out at different times in a church parking lot, the #1 being they attend that church and go there to pray at regular times. There are lots of groups like AA that meet daily at churches.

I’d suggest leaving these people alone.
posted by sallybrown at 11:17 AM on May 16, 2019 [1 favorite]

Your best bet would be to contact the church with your observations; if the people are there for programs or services, they may let you know and you get peace of mind. If the loiterers aren't there for AA, etc., then the ball is in the property owner's court.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:20 AM on May 16, 2019 [2 favorites]

Mostly I am unhappy that my 12 year old daughter lives in close proximity to this kind of thing.

You could continue as is or move to a suburb or a rural area and you’d still be living “in close proximity to this kind of thing,” whether that means illegal behavior, drug use, or people living grim lives. That’s the world. Better to focus yourself and your daughter on how to treat people who are experiencing “this kind of thing.”
posted by sallybrown at 11:20 AM on May 16, 2019 [5 favorites]

Don't borrow trouble. You've basically just described people in an urban setting existing where you also exist, which is not problematic in any way. You've haven't seen anything that looks like drug dealing or other nefarious behavior, and you haven't described anyone being threatening or dangerous in any way. So maybe instead of trying to criminalize people who may already be marginalized or vulnerable, you should just go about your business and, when the opportunity arises, be a welcoming member of your community.
posted by cheese at 11:26 AM on May 16, 2019 [9 favorites]

The same individual was there when I left and returned, and had quite the look on his face when he saw me return in the same car I left with.

That’s generally how cars work. You come back with the same one you drove away in. Most people know that. Perhaps the person was reacting to your glaring at them for no reason.

Do nothing. Leave these people alone and let them live their lives in peace. The needle you saw could have been improperly disposed of medical waste. You’ve seen no actual evidence of drug transactions. There are very real consequences, some life and death, to calling the police on marginalized people and they should not be undertaken lightly.
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 11:43 AM on May 16, 2019 [10 favorites]

My money is also on AA or NA. They often have meetings at churches and it's not unusual for there to be 3 or more meetings per day, every day-- and people who are struggling may attend every single one. Sometimes when you are hanging by a thread, all that keeps you going is counting the minutes until the next meeting, where you will have friends, support, understanding and compassion that you lack all other timea in your fucked up life. Also free coffee and cookies.
posted by Pastor of Muppets at 11:49 AM on May 16, 2019 [3 favorites]

Mod note: Couple comments deleted. Folks, OP asked for possible explanations/what to do, and if the answer is innocent/nothing that's fine. Please skip the speculation and telling-off, and please don't get into back-and-forth with other commenters.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:52 AM on May 16, 2019 [1 favorite]

I would talk to the church also. My church has a front parking lot on the street and a back parking lot obscured by woods. There's not a huge amount of church activity during the week. We started finding ...interesting... trash dumped in the back lot. Our solution to keep out the potential drug activity and lessen our liability was to put up motion activated security lights and put a chain across the driveway to the back lot during weekdays. The church in your scenario may appreciate knowing if their property is being used for non-church purposes, *IF* that is what is going on. As others have suggested, it may just be legitimate groups meeting there.
posted by molasses at 12:03 PM on May 16, 2019

The fact is, church property is often frequented by homeless people who think a church is less likely to kick people off their property than, say, a business is. Many urban churches regard it as part of their mission to welcome such people, unless there is evidence of actual crime, and even then up to a certain point.

If they, or some of them (the people saying AA/NA are probably right, too; there are midnight meetings), are homeless people, they exist in your town whether you see them in the parking lot or not. If they're a menace, they're a menace wherever you go. Up to the point where there's significant illegal activity specifically in that lot, driving them off isn't really going to make you or your daughter much safer.

If you don't have a lot of experience living in actual urban areas, you could benefit from learning how to project "benign, yet reserved" at people you see in your neighborhood who don't fit your idea of who belongs there. I'm not saying to bring them cookies, but I am saying glaring at people minding their own business is not going to help and could even be harmful.
posted by praemunire at 12:27 PM on May 16, 2019 [3 favorites]

Expectations about how people use public spaces can also be very, very different depending on the culture you're coming from. When I moved into a majority-black neighborhood at one point, it wasn't that I hadn't been around black people plenty previously, but I hadn't been in a position where I often saw a lot of people just hanging around on the street. In fact, most places I'd lived had strenuously enforced rules and restrictions to keep people from doing that.

But... while part of that is to prevent the things you're worried about, part of it, I have realized, is just racism and classism. People who don't come from a background where cars and small amounts of disposable income are a given, the "third spaces" they use are not the same as the ones you're used to. Some people think the idea that you'd go buy a $5 coffee just to hang out with somebody is as weird as you think sitting in a parking lot to smoke is. They could be associated with something at the church, but it could just be that it's known as a place that doesn't run people off. My laundromat's parking lot was sort of an informal gathering spot just because the night attendants didn't care and there was a soda machine. On top of the lack of places to go, lack of money and transportation also give you a lot more downtime. You've got two hours to kill between the time your shift ends and when your cousin gets off work and gives you a ride home. You've got a bus pass but your bus only comes once an hour after 8pm. You've got a split shift and it'll take you longer to get home and back than you have between shifts. That kind of thing. This is why treating "loitering" as a crime is so inequitable.

I strongly suspect the church would be attempting to get rid of them if they were really attracting criminal behavior, especially drugs. Churches are practically catnip to desperate people who need money and have impaired judgment. If they aren't visibly attempting to drive people away, probably whoever's hanging around isn't being destructive. It's not that this is automatically harmless, but... if you haven't observed anything more clearly indicative than this, then I'd leave it. If they're drug dealers and you've seen no direct evidence of it, you have the world's most polite drug dealers. It's hard to get used to if you were raised with the idea that loitering is per se threatening, but it really isn't.
posted by Sequence at 12:30 PM on May 16, 2019 [18 favorites]

To add another potential alternative explanation to the (long) list: many many churches are marked as Pokemon Go gyms and in some areas this can cause regular visits with loitering for a few minutes, either alone or in small groups. Usually people are obviously focusing on their phones but not always, eg if they're waiting for others to arrive. I imagine this could look like drug transactions to some people. And of course there are many, many other non-nefarious reasons for someone to be hanging out there.
posted by randomnity at 12:36 PM on May 16, 2019 [3 favorites]

As well - if you are in Canada (assuming by your name), outside of a few areas in a few major cities, there is very little violent gun crime. So - stay away from the person and you will be safe.

I would assume someone in a "[something] anonymous" - or someone (maybe janitorial even), just having a smoke break.
posted by jkaczor at 1:14 PM on May 16, 2019