My boss says I don't have any self confidence. This is so not true!
May 9, 2019 2:28 PM Subscribe
Recently my boss had a talk with me to tell me that I completely lack of self confidence. I think he is being completely unreasonable and I am very hurt.
After a colleague meeting earlier this week, my boss had me come to his office to tell me that I do a very good job, that he sees me in this company long-term, but that his problem with me is that I do not have any self confidence. At first I thought he was joking. But as it turns out, he has plans to send me to some kind of self help-program for employees who have a low self esteem.
I work at the reception of a pretty big company and I interact with clients personally and on the phone all day. I have been doing this job for over 4 years (4 months into this company now) and have never, ever heard anyone say that about me. I love interacting with people, the clients love me, I have never had any kind of fear-of-talking-to-strangers or anything like that. I come along great with our clients and all my colleagues.
Sure, I am not much of a party-person who will laugh and tell stories all day long, but I do not think the workplace is there for that. And sure, in the past I have had problems with my mental health and self-doubt, but that has been a long time ago and I am now in a place where I feel great (Maybe that is why this hurt me so bad?)
When I asked about details (after denying the fact), he mentioned the way I stand(what?) and how I talk to silently on the phone(which is not the case). He says that when you look at me at work I look unsure of everything, like I do not feel well with myself. Maybe some days I am tired after a long shift alone without any opportunity for a small break, and maybe you can tell, but I don't think this has anything to do with a persons lack of self-esteem. He also said that I should ask my friends and family what the think of me and if they believe that I have a problem with self-confidence to help me figure out my 'problem'. This is ridiculous.
He said that he has talked about me with other colleagues of his (also high positioned in the company) and that they have had the same opinion on me.
On the other hand, I talked to a couple of my closest colleagues and they reassured me that he is being completely unreasonable.
Just for the record, I don't intend to stay in this company for long, because of other reasons, but I still found the incident very unfortunate and it has made me pretty upset.
What can it be that I am doing wrong?
Sorry for the long post, I just have to hear some opinions on this and get it off my chest. Is it possible that my past mental health issues somehow reflect on the person that I am now? But how?
Thank you all.
After a colleague meeting earlier this week, my boss had me come to his office to tell me that I do a very good job, that he sees me in this company long-term, but that his problem with me is that I do not have any self confidence. At first I thought he was joking. But as it turns out, he has plans to send me to some kind of self help-program for employees who have a low self esteem.
I work at the reception of a pretty big company and I interact with clients personally and on the phone all day. I have been doing this job for over 4 years (4 months into this company now) and have never, ever heard anyone say that about me. I love interacting with people, the clients love me, I have never had any kind of fear-of-talking-to-strangers or anything like that. I come along great with our clients and all my colleagues.
Sure, I am not much of a party-person who will laugh and tell stories all day long, but I do not think the workplace is there for that. And sure, in the past I have had problems with my mental health and self-doubt, but that has been a long time ago and I am now in a place where I feel great (Maybe that is why this hurt me so bad?)
When I asked about details (after denying the fact), he mentioned the way I stand(what?) and how I talk to silently on the phone(which is not the case). He says that when you look at me at work I look unsure of everything, like I do not feel well with myself. Maybe some days I am tired after a long shift alone without any opportunity for a small break, and maybe you can tell, but I don't think this has anything to do with a persons lack of self-esteem. He also said that I should ask my friends and family what the think of me and if they believe that I have a problem with self-confidence to help me figure out my 'problem'. This is ridiculous.
He said that he has talked about me with other colleagues of his (also high positioned in the company) and that they have had the same opinion on me.
On the other hand, I talked to a couple of my closest colleagues and they reassured me that he is being completely unreasonable.
Just for the record, I don't intend to stay in this company for long, because of other reasons, but I still found the incident very unfortunate and it has made me pretty upset.
What can it be that I am doing wrong?
Sorry for the long post, I just have to hear some opinions on this and get it off my chest. Is it possible that my past mental health issues somehow reflect on the person that I am now? But how?
Thank you all.
This is absolutely improper and you need to file a report with HR if for no other reason than to place a record against this man for future reference. He is trying to “nicely” intimidate and control you under the guise of helping you. It will get more aggressive if you let it continue. I had a very similar situation happen to me twenty years ago. When I finally got courage up to report him to the owner, he was terminated the next day. So just know this is not ok and has little to do with you. You are just a target. Sorry it happened.
posted by oh posey at 2:50 PM on May 9, 2019 [27 favorites]
posted by oh posey at 2:50 PM on May 9, 2019 [27 favorites]
You could feel confident but still retain the non verbals of your earlier years. Standing with hip cocked to the side, voice going up at the end of a sentence, hair touching etc. I wish your boss had framed it as how they want the company to be presented, rather than presuming how you feel, and I agree if you’re feminine-presenting then it’s sexist. Sometimes womanly friendliness is presumed to be weakness - not cool but common in business.
Maybe get a video of yourself and watch with an outsiders eye; I’d take the course for kicks and then leave ASAP.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:55 PM on May 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
Maybe get a video of yourself and watch with an outsiders eye; I’d take the course for kicks and then leave ASAP.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:55 PM on May 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
You need to report this. I was in a similar position. My boss offered me "mentoring" through HR for employees with similar issues, and pressured me heavily to accept. It turned out to be the nail in the coffin of my employment there, and I still regret not pursuing things legally.
posted by easy, lucky, free at 2:57 PM on May 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by easy, lucky, free at 2:57 PM on May 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
Not only is this probably some sexist bullshit, I'll bet if you call HR asking about this 'course' he's on about you'll actually be able to hear them running to his office to shut that biz down immediately.
I'd bet money he's getting a kickback for sending people to this course. Or it's Landmark Forum or similar.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:57 PM on May 9, 2019 [42 favorites]
I'd bet money he's getting a kickback for sending people to this course. Or it's Landmark Forum or similar.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:57 PM on May 9, 2019 [42 favorites]
I'd bet money he's getting a kickback for sending people to this course. Or it's Landmark Forum or similar.
OP - any chance this program is through the Option Institute? That was the only "workplace self-esteem program" I could find and it definitely looks like bullshit. I can't find much detailed info online that isn't from the company and I'm hesitant to link to them, but here's a Glassdoor review about the "cult-like atmosphere."
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:16 PM on May 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
OP - any chance this program is through the Option Institute? That was the only "workplace self-esteem program" I could find and it definitely looks like bullshit. I can't find much detailed info online that isn't from the company and I'm hesitant to link to them, but here's a Glassdoor review about the "cult-like atmosphere."
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:16 PM on May 9, 2019 [8 favorites]
Yikes. Personally I'd say something like "I welcome your feedback during Annual, Documented Review Process, but I really don't think this conversation should continue outside that context." There's your self esteem, asshole.
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:23 PM on May 9, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 3:23 PM on May 9, 2019 [24 favorites]
It is true that sometimes an employee doesn't project confidence in their work and/or knowledge. Ask A Manager listed some of the legitimate things "lacking confidence" can mean in a work setting and ways to work on it: My manager said I need more confidence — what does that mean?
Is your boss new? Or new to managing you? If it's a legitimate concern, why hasn't it come up in the past 4 years you've been at this job? This is terrible feedback and the course smells like bullshit.
posted by rhapsodie at 3:29 PM on May 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
Is your boss new? Or new to managing you? If it's a legitimate concern, why hasn't it come up in the past 4 years you've been at this job? This is terrible feedback and the course smells like bullshit.
posted by rhapsodie at 3:29 PM on May 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
My first assumption was also that it was some Landmark cult-y thing. I would definitely loop in HR.
posted by lazuli at 3:34 PM on May 9, 2019
posted by lazuli at 3:34 PM on May 9, 2019
What can it be that I am doing wrong?
Nothing. You’re doing nothing wrong. Your boss is either an idiot or an asshole. Possibly both.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:36 PM on May 9, 2019 [9 favorites]
Nothing. You’re doing nothing wrong. Your boss is either an idiot or an asshole. Possibly both.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:36 PM on May 9, 2019 [9 favorites]
Are you an Asian woman and he's a white man? Because this actually sounds like there's a prejudicial element at play. Definitely discuss this situation with HR! Agree with others that he probably has a financial interest in your taking the class. What a creep!
posted by pseudostrabismus at 3:38 PM on May 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 3:38 PM on May 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
This entire thing made me gnash my teeth super hard but
He also said that I should ask my friends and family what the think of me and if they believe that I have a problem with self-confidence to help me figure out my 'problem'. This is ridiculous
This is so far beyond acceptable. I agree with going straight to HR, but if they didn't seem like they were almost scared i'd be getting my stuff in order to resign as soon as possible.
Seriously, this is really not ok and i don't believe you're doing anything wrong here.
posted by emptythought at 4:12 PM on May 9, 2019 [11 favorites]
He also said that I should ask my friends and family what the think of me and if they believe that I have a problem with self-confidence to help me figure out my 'problem'. This is ridiculous
This is so far beyond acceptable. I agree with going straight to HR, but if they didn't seem like they were almost scared i'd be getting my stuff in order to resign as soon as possible.
Seriously, this is really not ok and i don't believe you're doing anything wrong here.
posted by emptythought at 4:12 PM on May 9, 2019 [11 favorites]
Since tomorrow is Friday, which is when Ask A Manager has an open thread for commenters to post and get feedback on their work problems, it might be really useful to post this there as well.
posted by Autumnheart at 4:25 PM on May 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
posted by Autumnheart at 4:25 PM on May 9, 2019 [7 favorites]
Best answer: This is not appropriate. One of the earliest Supreme Court cases on gender discrimination in the workplace involved a woman who was denied a promotion and told she needed “charm school.” I would write an email to him to get this documented—something like:
Boss,posted by sallybrown at 4:30 PM on May 9, 2019 [45 favorites]
While I appreciate your interest in my advancement here, I respectfully decline the opportunity to participate in this training. You mentioned that you offered me this training because you believe my body language, voice, and manner of interacting shows a lack of self-confidence, and even urged me to approach my friends and family with personal questions about this, but I can assure you that these qualities are just my personality, and that I am comfortable and confident with myself. Colleagues here have confirmed for me that they feel good about my confidence level, and so do I. I think it’s important that we foster a workplace where people with different personalities and work styles feel included so long as we’re all doing great work, which I believe I am.
If you hear of training opportunities for substantive work related to my job rather than my personal qualities, I would definitely appreciate hearing about those and be interested.
Best,
X
Welcome to waged employment; you can’t win.
I’d agree with others in considering this dubious feedback, but mostly for its gaslighting and harassing potential. It’s termed extremely oddly for genuine feedback. As such it might be safely ignored.
If it was me and I felt strongly enough I might choose to assert my self confidence and get another job with a better manager and more professional boundaries, but your mileage may vary.
posted by Middlemarch at 4:34 PM on May 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
I’d agree with others in considering this dubious feedback, but mostly for its gaslighting and harassing potential. It’s termed extremely oddly for genuine feedback. As such it might be safely ignored.
If it was me and I felt strongly enough I might choose to assert my self confidence and get another job with a better manager and more professional boundaries, but your mileage may vary.
posted by Middlemarch at 4:34 PM on May 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
Seconding Sallybrown. If he still insists, go to HR. In the meantime, unless you really love this job, I would start looking for another one.
I've been through a somewhat similar situation and it was a gaslighting mess that didn't let up until I left. Ironically it did really sap my confidence and I wish I'd gotten out sooner. Toxic workplaces are not something will put up with anymore.
posted by ananci at 5:35 PM on May 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
I've been through a somewhat similar situation and it was a gaslighting mess that didn't let up until I left. Ironically it did really sap my confidence and I wish I'd gotten out sooner. Toxic workplaces are not something will put up with anymore.
posted by ananci at 5:35 PM on May 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
Previously https://ask.metafilter.com/330391/My-boss-thinks-I-need-more-self-confidence
posted by EatMyHat at 6:16 PM on May 9, 2019
posted by EatMyHat at 6:16 PM on May 9, 2019
From further afield but still possibly of interest: last weekend Radio New Zealand interviewed one of the academic authors who participated in the recent 21st-century revision of the book Workplace Bullying: A Costly Business Phenomenon.
posted by XMLicious at 6:42 PM on May 9, 2019
posted by XMLicious at 6:42 PM on May 9, 2019
I'm also noticing that the Wikipedia article on workplace bullying is extensive and relatively well-written.
posted by XMLicious at 6:50 PM on May 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by XMLicious at 6:50 PM on May 9, 2019 [1 favorite]
He said that he has talked about me with other colleagues of his (also high positioned in the company) and that they have had the same opinion on me.
On the other hand, I talked to a couple of my closest colleagues and they reassured me that he is being completely unreasonable.
Your colleagues are right, your boss is awful, and this isn't on you at all. I agree with everyone above who suggests referring this to HR after getting a paper trail if possible, but: your mention of the fact that he and the people he's talked with are higher-ups gives me the sense that you should mentally prepare yourself for your HR department (if there is one, I'm not sure how big your employer is) to side with your boss and his cohort if you do so, since HR is so rarely there to actually fairly address employee grievances. I bring that up not to induce doubt, but more to say that, if it does turn out that way, it's still not on you. These organizations are designed to protect their own, and they'll happily bend or blatantly ignore the truth whatever their nominal charter.
posted by invitapriore at 7:59 PM on May 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
On the other hand, I talked to a couple of my closest colleagues and they reassured me that he is being completely unreasonable.
Your colleagues are right, your boss is awful, and this isn't on you at all. I agree with everyone above who suggests referring this to HR after getting a paper trail if possible, but: your mention of the fact that he and the people he's talked with are higher-ups gives me the sense that you should mentally prepare yourself for your HR department (if there is one, I'm not sure how big your employer is) to side with your boss and his cohort if you do so, since HR is so rarely there to actually fairly address employee grievances. I bring that up not to induce doubt, but more to say that, if it does turn out that way, it's still not on you. These organizations are designed to protect their own, and they'll happily bend or blatantly ignore the truth whatever their nominal charter.
posted by invitapriore at 7:59 PM on May 9, 2019 [5 favorites]
I tend to be more sympathetic to the boss end of the spectrum than many MeFites on questions like this. And from that perspective I'll say it sounds like your boss's feedback is total bullshit. The totally subjective nature of the observations (from body language to somehow knowing how you "feel" about yourself) completely put me in mind of someone running a scam, but even if they are sincere studies show people are objectively quite bad at interpreting that kind of insight.
You sound like you really enjoy parts of your job and are engaged which is about as much as most people can reasonably expect. Try to ignore it best you can, and remind yourself you won't be there long. Good luck.
posted by mark k at 10:16 PM on May 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
You sound like you really enjoy parts of your job and are engaged which is about as much as most people can reasonably expect. Try to ignore it best you can, and remind yourself you won't be there long. Good luck.
posted by mark k at 10:16 PM on May 9, 2019 [3 favorites]
Fucker has just found his way to his first PUA site and this is him negging you. Fuck that noise. HR, stat.
One of the things I have learned about arseholes is that if they accuse you of some personal failing, it's almost always a personal failing that they know they have themselves and have been desperately trying to cover up for years. So if he's saying you lack self confidence it's a fair bet that actually he does, and will just crumble at the first sign of serious pushback especially if it looks like lawyers might get involved.
And although HR is your correct first step in that pushback, you absolutely cannot trust HR in a corp you've only worked at for four months to have your back. Their job is heading off lawsuits against the corp, not actually protecting your interests. So you need to start documenting every interaction you have with this boss from right now, including taking personal copies of any workplace documentation that refers to you (performance reviews etc).
posted by flabdablet at 12:02 AM on May 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
One of the things I have learned about arseholes is that if they accuse you of some personal failing, it's almost always a personal failing that they know they have themselves and have been desperately trying to cover up for years. So if he's saying you lack self confidence it's a fair bet that actually he does, and will just crumble at the first sign of serious pushback especially if it looks like lawyers might get involved.
And although HR is your correct first step in that pushback, you absolutely cannot trust HR in a corp you've only worked at for four months to have your back. Their job is heading off lawsuits against the corp, not actually protecting your interests. So you need to start documenting every interaction you have with this boss from right now, including taking personal copies of any workplace documentation that refers to you (performance reviews etc).
posted by flabdablet at 12:02 AM on May 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
Wait. We don't know enough to give you useful advice.
1) Is this in the US? Are you in an at-will state? Can this person fire you?
2) Is your boss the owner of the company? Is there actually an HR department you can go to?
3) What does your employment contract say about termination, particularly in regards to verbal and written warnings?
Under no circumstances should you send a letter saying parts of your job performance someone with authority over you is objecting to is "part of your personality."
If you could clarify with more information about the location and size of the company and your boss's position in the hierarchy, that will help you get better advice.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:40 AM on May 10, 2019 [5 favorites]
1) Is this in the US? Are you in an at-will state? Can this person fire you?
2) Is your boss the owner of the company? Is there actually an HR department you can go to?
3) What does your employment contract say about termination, particularly in regards to verbal and written warnings?
Under no circumstances should you send a letter saying parts of your job performance someone with authority over you is objecting to is "part of your personality."
If you could clarify with more information about the location and size of the company and your boss's position in the hierarchy, that will help you get better advice.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:40 AM on May 10, 2019 [5 favorites]
FWIW, I recently had this with my boss, with the bonus that the suggested "solution" wasn't training, but firing me from my trial period because she said I lacked the "force of personality" she looks for in her direct reports. This despite completing all my projects on time, standing up to pushy directors, running multiple meetings without a problem, etc. Same bizarre unactionable feedback ("demeanour", "you seem too young in meetings"), same advice to go ask colleagues (inlcuding HR!) and friends ("you'll be surprised at their answers, I bet").
So I DID go to our assigned HR rep, because she was the one in charge of overseeing the progress of my trial period, honestly asking if I gave off a vibe of disengagement or something and if so, how I might change it because I very much wanted to keep my job. She *flipped out* when I told her this was on Boss's advice, immediately asked to see her alone, and the issue has never come up again. And this is in a country and work culture that is...not known for an insistence on respectful interactions between superiors and their employees.
I can't really advise you on whether to involve HR or a lawyer. However I think you're probably accurate in your assessment of how you come off to most people, your efficacy as an employee, and your own internal sense of your own damn self, my God. I figure your boss is either genuinely trying to be helpful and being a giant fool about it, or attempting to manipulate you into changing your already perfectly effective demeanour to something they find more acceptable, by telling you crappy things that aren't true (which is what was going on with my boss and is a not-uncommon managerial tactic).
If you genuinely want to stay in the position then do so, but consider how long your mental health can hold up to this kind of deep, weird gaslighting.
posted by peakes at 2:12 AM on May 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
So I DID go to our assigned HR rep, because she was the one in charge of overseeing the progress of my trial period, honestly asking if I gave off a vibe of disengagement or something and if so, how I might change it because I very much wanted to keep my job. She *flipped out* when I told her this was on Boss's advice, immediately asked to see her alone, and the issue has never come up again. And this is in a country and work culture that is...not known for an insistence on respectful interactions between superiors and their employees.
I can't really advise you on whether to involve HR or a lawyer. However I think you're probably accurate in your assessment of how you come off to most people, your efficacy as an employee, and your own internal sense of your own damn self, my God. I figure your boss is either genuinely trying to be helpful and being a giant fool about it, or attempting to manipulate you into changing your already perfectly effective demeanour to something they find more acceptable, by telling you crappy things that aren't true (which is what was going on with my boss and is a not-uncommon managerial tactic).
If you genuinely want to stay in the position then do so, but consider how long your mental health can hold up to this kind of deep, weird gaslighting.
posted by peakes at 2:12 AM on May 10, 2019 [4 favorites]
1. You mention that you don’t plan to stay long with this company. If possible, you may wish to leave even sooner than you had anticipated. See #5 below.
2. I don’t see the harm of documenting this crap, but (personally) I’d do a lot of discreet inquiry before reporting stuff to HR - is HR likely to be helpful? Ref #5 below.
3. It sounds like your past mental health issues are in the past. I’d advise you to never bring that stuff up at work. Because anytime anyone wants to find fault with you, they’ll take “past mental health issues” and run with it. Also: #5 below.
4. “You lack self-confidence” is like something out of a Dilbert cartoon. Do you also have a tendency to disagree with people who are smarter than yourself? (Also from Dilbert; not a serious question). Please refer to #5 below.
5. Your boss is an asshole.
posted by doctor tough love at 5:28 AM on May 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
2. I don’t see the harm of documenting this crap, but (personally) I’d do a lot of discreet inquiry before reporting stuff to HR - is HR likely to be helpful? Ref #5 below.
3. It sounds like your past mental health issues are in the past. I’d advise you to never bring that stuff up at work. Because anytime anyone wants to find fault with you, they’ll take “past mental health issues” and run with it. Also: #5 below.
4. “You lack self-confidence” is like something out of a Dilbert cartoon. Do you also have a tendency to disagree with people who are smarter than yourself? (Also from Dilbert; not a serious question). Please refer to #5 below.
5. Your boss is an asshole.
posted by doctor tough love at 5:28 AM on May 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
I'm often hesitant to suggest reporting things to HR because I find it rarely makes things better and can sometimes make things worse, but in this case I think you should touch base with HR carefully. I would email HR something like "Boss recommended that I attend XYZ Training because he believes that I lack self-confidence, and I was wondering if you had some more information about the training before I agree to it. Have other employees attended this training and had good results? Can I talk to them about the training and what it involves?" This brings them into the loop in case Boss is being sketchy (I suspect he is) and establishes a paper trail for any future actions you may need to take, while still maintaining the image that you are being a cooperative employee. Regardless of what they say, I would decline the training politely.
posted by Rock Steady at 7:49 AM on May 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 7:49 AM on May 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
I wanted to add another thought in case you’re still worrying that something about you specifically lead to this—in one of my former workplaces, a senior employee kept pushing training on a group of us and we were a little mystified why. When most of us turned it down she really kept hassling us about it, acting like “why would you pass up this great opportunity to improve yourself,” etc. It turned out she had a personal connection to one of the heads of the company that ran the trainings and she was trying to get her friend new business—it had nothing to do with any of us but rather was about her. So please don’t let this preoccupy you.
posted by sallybrown at 8:01 AM on May 10, 2019
posted by sallybrown at 8:01 AM on May 10, 2019
A lot of the comments above are remarkably wide of target.
* A supervisor is supposed to observe, evaluate and coach on the presentation of public-facing subordinates. Absent other evidence the presumption of bad faith or violation of HR standards has no warrant.
* Referring a promising subordinate to training that might overcome obstacles to realizing that promise is a core mission of a supervisor. Absent other evidence there's no warrant to presume that the referral to training is in bad faith or in violation of policy.
* Supervisors routinely discuss their reports with each other in most organizations.
* The fact that (non-supervisor) colleagues have not given informal feedback or coaching on presentation is no evidence that the coaching is not necessary; most people think it's presumptuous to do that with people who aren't their reports, and many companies discourage it.
* Further on the disagreement you and your fellow subordinates have regarding your presentation, absent some reason to believe otherwise, your supervisor as someone who decides on advancement is an infinitely more reliable judge of what is required to advance in the company than your fellow subordinates or you.
* It's more likely that the sex discrimination at play here would be not to coach a woman under a circumstance and to an end where one would coach a man. (Men are frequently coached on the need to be, and be seen as, confident.)
posted by MattD at 8:16 AM on May 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
* A supervisor is supposed to observe, evaluate and coach on the presentation of public-facing subordinates. Absent other evidence the presumption of bad faith or violation of HR standards has no warrant.
* Referring a promising subordinate to training that might overcome obstacles to realizing that promise is a core mission of a supervisor. Absent other evidence there's no warrant to presume that the referral to training is in bad faith or in violation of policy.
* Supervisors routinely discuss their reports with each other in most organizations.
* The fact that (non-supervisor) colleagues have not given informal feedback or coaching on presentation is no evidence that the coaching is not necessary; most people think it's presumptuous to do that with people who aren't their reports, and many companies discourage it.
* Further on the disagreement you and your fellow subordinates have regarding your presentation, absent some reason to believe otherwise, your supervisor as someone who decides on advancement is an infinitely more reliable judge of what is required to advance in the company than your fellow subordinates or you.
* It's more likely that the sex discrimination at play here would be not to coach a woman under a circumstance and to an end where one would coach a man. (Men are frequently coached on the need to be, and be seen as, confident.)
posted by MattD at 8:16 AM on May 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
Send him an E-mail message stating that you wanted to clarify if in his conversation with you, he meant to tell you that you lack confidence as a woman because that is the impression you gave him. Explain that you are certain that upon reflection, he did not mean to say that you lack self-confidence and that it was all a miscommunication.
Then drop it.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:09 AM on May 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
Then drop it.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:09 AM on May 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
A lot of the comments above are remarkably wide of target.
* A supervisor is supposed to observe, evaluate and coach on the presentation of public-facing subordinates. Absent other evidence the presumption of bad faith or violation of HR standards has no warrant.
* Referring a promising subordinate to training that might overcome obstacles to realizing that promise is a core mission of a supervisor. Absent other evidence there's no warrant to presume that the referral to training is in bad faith or in violation of policy.
* Supervisors routinely discuss their reports with each other in most organizations.
* The fact that (non-supervisor) colleagues have not given informal feedback or coaching on presentation is no evidence that the coaching is not necessary; most people think it's presumptuous to do that with people who aren't their reports, and many companies discourage it.
* Further on the disagreement you and your fellow subordinates have regarding your presentation, absent some reason to believe otherwise, your supervisor as someone who decides on advancement is an infinitely more reliable judge of what is required to advance in the company than your fellow subordinates or you.
* It's more likely that the sex discrimination at play here would be not to coach a woman under a circumstance and to an end where one would coach a man. (Men are frequently coached on the need to be, and be seen as, confident.)
I appreciate that this user is an attorney. However, I am an employment attorney who works extensively in sex-discrimination litigation. I've been doing it for almost 15 years. I have to disagree with this poster.
It is extremely unusual in today's workplace settings for a person to just come to someone and make these types of statements based on a few impressions of interpersonal contact. Unless there are complaints from clients, barring some hugely obvious major problem such as productivity numbers, a manager should not make statements like this.
Second, all of these approaches should go through HR. If there is a problem, the manager should have numbers and talking points ready and if others have agreed with him or her that there is a problem, those persons should also be at the meeting so that the employee knows that there are several people that have noticed an issue.
All of the above is especially important when the complaint is vague and interpersonal--that the person is "not confident" or some other catch all with no quantification at all. Yes, a supervisor is supposed to look out for issues--but it is my experience that when the imagined problem is broad and vague like this--the problem is normally with the manager, not the person.
My point is this--You should not assume you are the problem in this situation. The advice above is OK in certain situations but not with this vague "self-confidence" issue that has no quantification and is often a question of gender bias.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:22 AM on May 10, 2019 [14 favorites]
* A supervisor is supposed to observe, evaluate and coach on the presentation of public-facing subordinates. Absent other evidence the presumption of bad faith or violation of HR standards has no warrant.
* Referring a promising subordinate to training that might overcome obstacles to realizing that promise is a core mission of a supervisor. Absent other evidence there's no warrant to presume that the referral to training is in bad faith or in violation of policy.
* Supervisors routinely discuss their reports with each other in most organizations.
* The fact that (non-supervisor) colleagues have not given informal feedback or coaching on presentation is no evidence that the coaching is not necessary; most people think it's presumptuous to do that with people who aren't their reports, and many companies discourage it.
* Further on the disagreement you and your fellow subordinates have regarding your presentation, absent some reason to believe otherwise, your supervisor as someone who decides on advancement is an infinitely more reliable judge of what is required to advance in the company than your fellow subordinates or you.
* It's more likely that the sex discrimination at play here would be not to coach a woman under a circumstance and to an end where one would coach a man. (Men are frequently coached on the need to be, and be seen as, confident.)
I appreciate that this user is an attorney. However, I am an employment attorney who works extensively in sex-discrimination litigation. I've been doing it for almost 15 years. I have to disagree with this poster.
It is extremely unusual in today's workplace settings for a person to just come to someone and make these types of statements based on a few impressions of interpersonal contact. Unless there are complaints from clients, barring some hugely obvious major problem such as productivity numbers, a manager should not make statements like this.
Second, all of these approaches should go through HR. If there is a problem, the manager should have numbers and talking points ready and if others have agreed with him or her that there is a problem, those persons should also be at the meeting so that the employee knows that there are several people that have noticed an issue.
All of the above is especially important when the complaint is vague and interpersonal--that the person is "not confident" or some other catch all with no quantification at all. Yes, a supervisor is supposed to look out for issues--but it is my experience that when the imagined problem is broad and vague like this--the problem is normally with the manager, not the person.
My point is this--You should not assume you are the problem in this situation. The advice above is OK in certain situations but not with this vague "self-confidence" issue that has no quantification and is often a question of gender bias.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:22 AM on May 10, 2019 [14 favorites]
I didn't read all of the comments but this screams gender discrimination to me. Make sure you document everything. I can't emphasize that enough. Also research employment lawyers in your area so when he continues this bullshit (and he will), you'll be prepared.
posted by onecircleaday at 12:51 PM on May 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by onecircleaday at 12:51 PM on May 10, 2019 [1 favorite]
There is a lot of advice here about how to handle this from a strategic/legal perspective but OP's questions are "What am I doing wrong?" and "Is it possible that my past mental health issues are subtly showing?"
I don't know about the mental health issues but here are my thoughts on: "What am I doing wrong?"
I was told in the past, in a customer service type job, that I had too much of a "monotone" voice, that I shouldn't ask about things that weren't part of my job, and that I was not excited enough about selling X product.
I decided that being calm, detail-oriented, curious, proactive, and interested in serving the public good (vs. selling a product) were far more important to my personality and core values than building my career at that company.
You don't have to be "wrong" and they don't have to be "wrong." The point is that you're "wrong together" and you should find a place that wants employees who are quiet, contientious, sensitive, client-focused, and kind. You should only serve people who deserve your effort.
"I talked to a couple of my closest colleagues [about the manager] and they reassured me that he is being completely unreasonable."
This is a little bit naive, I'm sorry. Your colleagues said exactly what I would say to any of my colleagues about our mutual manager (even if I agreed with the manager entirely). It's simply not sensible to publicly ally one's self with either side in a dispute like this.
posted by cranberrymonger at 1:39 PM on May 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't know about the mental health issues but here are my thoughts on: "What am I doing wrong?"
I was told in the past, in a customer service type job, that I had too much of a "monotone" voice, that I shouldn't ask about things that weren't part of my job, and that I was not excited enough about selling X product.
I decided that being calm, detail-oriented, curious, proactive, and interested in serving the public good (vs. selling a product) were far more important to my personality and core values than building my career at that company.
You don't have to be "wrong" and they don't have to be "wrong." The point is that you're "wrong together" and you should find a place that wants employees who are quiet, contientious, sensitive, client-focused, and kind. You should only serve people who deserve your effort.
"I talked to a couple of my closest colleagues [about the manager] and they reassured me that he is being completely unreasonable."
This is a little bit naive, I'm sorry. Your colleagues said exactly what I would say to any of my colleagues about our mutual manager (even if I agreed with the manager entirely). It's simply not sensible to publicly ally one's self with either side in a dispute like this.
posted by cranberrymonger at 1:39 PM on May 10, 2019 [3 favorites]
* A supervisor is supposed to observe ...
* Referring a promising subordinate to training ...
* Supervisors routinely discuss their reports ...
* ...
I actually agree with MattD on much of what he wrote. But I also think that a supervisor should be able to do all of these things in a manner that doesn’t engender the kind of negative reaction that Tiffy119 is experiencing.
posted by doctor tough love at 2:25 PM on May 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
* Referring a promising subordinate to training ...
* Supervisors routinely discuss their reports ...
* ...
I actually agree with MattD on much of what he wrote. But I also think that a supervisor should be able to do all of these things in a manner that doesn’t engender the kind of negative reaction that Tiffy119 is experiencing.
posted by doctor tough love at 2:25 PM on May 10, 2019 [2 favorites]
To clarify my previous comment: I don't think that the problem is that OP's (or my) manager expressed dissatisfaction about how we present professionally. It's that, from what I can tell from the original post, there was very little specific, actionable feedback (which as long as I've been working has been RECOMMENDATION #1 FOR ALL PERFORMANCE EVALS EVER, both in the US and in Europe). Instead, Manager went straight to assumptions about OP's interior life as the source of the problem, which is weird, intrusive, and unhelpful. "Hey Tiffy119, I'm going to need you to speak up on the phone with customers because I notice they ask you to repeat yourself a lot" is very different from, "your voice is too quiet and it's because you clearly have no self-confidence."
I think cranberrymonger has it: it's possible for OP to be completely fine in how she presents herself to customers, and for Manager to have entirely legal, understandable (though yes, probably gendered) preferences for employees' personalities that don't match hers. It's fine to point out areas for improvement, it's fine and even a sign of confidence to suggest training, but attributing professional performance issues to deep personal failings is out of line in a direct supervisor.
posted by peakes at 1:35 AM on May 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think cranberrymonger has it: it's possible for OP to be completely fine in how she presents herself to customers, and for Manager to have entirely legal, understandable (though yes, probably gendered) preferences for employees' personalities that don't match hers. It's fine to point out areas for improvement, it's fine and even a sign of confidence to suggest training, but attributing professional performance issues to deep personal failings is out of line in a direct supervisor.
posted by peakes at 1:35 AM on May 11, 2019 [5 favorites]
And it's also possible for the OP to be projecting a lack of confidence, even if she feels it, and for Manager to be completely flubbing the documented coaching conversation he wants to have with her.
I wouldn't leap to discount the former. My boss has a saying: "You're the expert on your inside, everyone else is an expert on your outside." The higher up you move in a hierarchical organization (or the closer to the senior staff), the more presentation matters, and the more your soft skills matter. Those are real things. If the boss and other senior team believe it would benefit the company for you to project more confidence and authority, they may not be wrong.
However, I completely agree with others that: that's part of performance conversation, documented and filed with HR, and not a casual conversation. Also, it's out of bounds to psychoanalyze you or speculate about what personal factors contribute. And it's further out of bounds to require sketchy training that hasn't been vetted by HR and isn't considered a standard form of training in your field.
So I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand, but I would be honing in on the boss' poor practices and making sure every future communication is documented and goes through HR (if you have HR).
posted by Miko at 5:08 AM on May 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't leap to discount the former. My boss has a saying: "You're the expert on your inside, everyone else is an expert on your outside." The higher up you move in a hierarchical organization (or the closer to the senior staff), the more presentation matters, and the more your soft skills matter. Those are real things. If the boss and other senior team believe it would benefit the company for you to project more confidence and authority, they may not be wrong.
However, I completely agree with others that: that's part of performance conversation, documented and filed with HR, and not a casual conversation. Also, it's out of bounds to psychoanalyze you or speculate about what personal factors contribute. And it's further out of bounds to require sketchy training that hasn't been vetted by HR and isn't considered a standard form of training in your field.
So I wouldn't dismiss this out of hand, but I would be honing in on the boss' poor practices and making sure every future communication is documented and goes through HR (if you have HR).
posted by Miko at 5:08 AM on May 11, 2019 [1 favorite]
And it's also possible for the OP to be projecting a lack of confidence, even if she feels it, and for Manager to be completely flubbing the documented coaching conversation he wants to have with her.
I came to say this. The manager sounds inept, and I would also have been upset by the presentation, but comments about an employee's professional presence are not out of line in and of themselves. Those kind of intangibles can really hold someone back, but they are very difficult to address because the employee is often completely unaware of the way they are coming across. Peers are often little help because many of them have the same issues and don't look at each other the way executives look at employees. Many bosses shy away from the entire discussion for these reasons, and the employee misses out on an opportunity for growth.
Without knowing more about your overall relationship with your manager (e. g. is it generally positive, is this kind of comment typical, have they praised other aspects of your work, how do they deal with other employees?), I'm reluctant to jump to the conclusion that he is trying to "neg" or otherwise mistreat you. It could be that he sees potential in you and wants to help you get to the next level. As someone else pointed out above, that is the kind of coaching that is often less available to women than men, so I'd recommend thinking about it before taking any action. I'd also be very careful about responding to any criticism with "that's just how I am," as that could make your manager decide you're not coachable and no longer worth his effort. Supervisory relationships can go sharply downhill when that happens.
As for the course, it does sound a bit weird. However, your boss is offering you the chance for some training on personal presentation and presence, and that an be valuable for any employee at any level. (In my own case, I have been in the workforce for more than two decades, but just moved from an anonymous middle-manager job in a big, bureaucratic office to a highly visible one as the head of a small independent organization. You can bet that I am seeking exactly this kind of training, even though I am already pretty confident. ) If you don't like the course he's suggested, you could always identify something similar that appeals to you more. There is a lot of professional advice available in this area. I'd only start wondering about kickbacks or cult seminars if he seems to cling to his suggestion after you propose some alternatives.
posted by rpfields at 9:27 AM on May 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
I came to say this. The manager sounds inept, and I would also have been upset by the presentation, but comments about an employee's professional presence are not out of line in and of themselves. Those kind of intangibles can really hold someone back, but they are very difficult to address because the employee is often completely unaware of the way they are coming across. Peers are often little help because many of them have the same issues and don't look at each other the way executives look at employees. Many bosses shy away from the entire discussion for these reasons, and the employee misses out on an opportunity for growth.
Without knowing more about your overall relationship with your manager (e. g. is it generally positive, is this kind of comment typical, have they praised other aspects of your work, how do they deal with other employees?), I'm reluctant to jump to the conclusion that he is trying to "neg" or otherwise mistreat you. It could be that he sees potential in you and wants to help you get to the next level. As someone else pointed out above, that is the kind of coaching that is often less available to women than men, so I'd recommend thinking about it before taking any action. I'd also be very careful about responding to any criticism with "that's just how I am," as that could make your manager decide you're not coachable and no longer worth his effort. Supervisory relationships can go sharply downhill when that happens.
As for the course, it does sound a bit weird. However, your boss is offering you the chance for some training on personal presentation and presence, and that an be valuable for any employee at any level. (In my own case, I have been in the workforce for more than two decades, but just moved from an anonymous middle-manager job in a big, bureaucratic office to a highly visible one as the head of a small independent organization. You can bet that I am seeking exactly this kind of training, even though I am already pretty confident. ) If you don't like the course he's suggested, you could always identify something similar that appeals to you more. There is a lot of professional advice available in this area. I'd only start wondering about kickbacks or cult seminars if he seems to cling to his suggestion after you propose some alternatives.
posted by rpfields at 9:27 AM on May 11, 2019 [2 favorites]
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posted by LadyInWaiting at 2:38 PM on May 9, 2019 [32 favorites]