Dog training
February 19, 2006 9:07 PM Subscribe
Potty training the dog. The common method of rubbing their nose in a mistake while saying no and/or smacking them doesn't seem like a great idea. I wonder about the opposite though. Would having them smell their waste outside and giving them a treat do any good?
I haven't tried either method, but I am curious if it would work.
I haven't tried either method, but I am curious if it would work.
Positive reinforcement works better and is more humane than negative reinforcement with just about all pets. You should never, ever smack a dog. A stern "NO" is one thing in the right situation - it's ok if the dog knows you're displeased, but smacking is bad - it makes you seem like a source of pain to your dog.
The real key is watching the puppy a lot -- they'll sniff around when they're looking for a place to go. This is when you need to catch them and take them to where you want them to go potty. Don't chase the dog - just walk over, take him/her outside or to the designated potty area.
posted by twiggy at 9:27 PM on February 19, 2006
The real key is watching the puppy a lot -- they'll sniff around when they're looking for a place to go. This is when you need to catch them and take them to where you want them to go potty. Don't chase the dog - just walk over, take him/her outside or to the designated potty area.
posted by twiggy at 9:27 PM on February 19, 2006
It does work. Don't worry about making them smell the waste, it's counter productive. Take the pup outside and say whatever trigger word you want to use. We use "outside, hurry". When he/she goes make a big fuss about it (Oh, what a good dog, good job), possibly even dance around and show how excited you are and give him/her a treat. Wait till the dog is done though, you don't want to distract them. The idea is to show them how much fun it is to pee and poop outside. After the behavior gets consistent you can skip the treat sometimes but keep petting and praising. After awhile you can phase that out too.
Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor is a good book to read on dog training..
posted by BoscosMom at 9:28 PM on February 19, 2006
Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor is a good book to read on dog training..
posted by BoscosMom at 9:28 PM on February 19, 2006
Isn't crate training all the rage these days? My parents did that with both of their puppies and it worked very well. But they did it mainly at night and in a *much* larger crate than the one in the photo on this link. It was more like an open-ceiling pen.
posted by lilybeane at 9:38 PM on February 19, 2006
posted by lilybeane at 9:38 PM on February 19, 2006
Crate training works. We did it with our dog, and she's been trouble-free ever since (she's nine years old now, BTW). Dogs are clean creatures--they don't like to soil where they sleep. We haven't used a crate with her in years now, but she's never had a problem.
posted by wheat at 9:46 PM on February 19, 2006
posted by wheat at 9:46 PM on February 19, 2006
Crate training is wonderful. Our dog, a yellow lab, learned within five days. You want to give your dog the opportunity to be successful and that means a lot of postive reinforcement and sensitivity.
In our case, we had to have someone come over and let him out during the day at first. (Puppies can only hold it for their age in months + 1 - so an 8-week old pup can only hold it for about 3 hours). Even puppies don't like to go where they sleep, though, so we kept him in his crate with lots of opportunities to go outside.
When he did go outside we went wild with praise. Dogs love to please you. It worked and he was housetrained quickly.
It was a couple more years until we could let him out of the crate while we were at work, though, because he had a habit of transforming into Destructo-Lab and creating Labfetti out of all of our possessions. But that is a separate issue.
posted by Ostara at 9:56 PM on February 19, 2006
In our case, we had to have someone come over and let him out during the day at first. (Puppies can only hold it for their age in months + 1 - so an 8-week old pup can only hold it for about 3 hours). Even puppies don't like to go where they sleep, though, so we kept him in his crate with lots of opportunities to go outside.
When he did go outside we went wild with praise. Dogs love to please you. It worked and he was housetrained quickly.
It was a couple more years until we could let him out of the crate while we were at work, though, because he had a habit of transforming into Destructo-Lab and creating Labfetti out of all of our possessions. But that is a separate issue.
posted by Ostara at 9:56 PM on February 19, 2006
Crate training will halve the time it takes to housetrain a dog. Combine this with positive reinforcement, a loud "No!" when you catch him go inside, and a spray-on dog repellent on those spots he went before that you don't want him to go again.
As for crating a dog during the day because he is destructive indoors, this usually means the dog is bored and not getting enough exercise. Personally, I wouldn't crate a dog who needs lot of exercise more than at nighttimes.
posted by DirtyCreature at 10:12 PM on February 19, 2006
As for crating a dog during the day because he is destructive indoors, this usually means the dog is bored and not getting enough exercise. Personally, I wouldn't crate a dog who needs lot of exercise more than at nighttimes.
posted by DirtyCreature at 10:12 PM on February 19, 2006
Crate training, treats, and discipline on your part will teach your puppy where to go and when to go. Seriously, dogs take to the crate (like a den) and the routine very quickly. Most dogs love it.
posted by MrZero at 10:18 PM on February 19, 2006
posted by MrZero at 10:18 PM on February 19, 2006
Just to add another voice: just watch the puppy and take him outdoors when it looks like he is going to go. Praise him after.
Also, regarding crate training - it's useful because it is a "den" -- and dogs don't (generally) muss their dens. However, a puppy's bladder isn't very big, so you'll probably be getting up in the middle of the night for a while. Make sure you do (esp if you are crate training) or the dog learns bad habits.
posted by R343L at 11:48 PM on February 19, 2006
Also, regarding crate training - it's useful because it is a "den" -- and dogs don't (generally) muss their dens. However, a puppy's bladder isn't very big, so you'll probably be getting up in the middle of the night for a while. Make sure you do (esp if you are crate training) or the dog learns bad habits.
posted by R343L at 11:48 PM on February 19, 2006
Crate Training. Also a book called 'Mother Knows Best'
posted by Corky at 3:38 AM on February 20, 2006
posted by Corky at 3:38 AM on February 20, 2006
Like others have said, your best bet is to praise the dog while he's doing his business outside.
If you get tired of waiting for him to start doing his business, your best bet is to whip it out and take a leak next to him — or, if you aren't suitably equipped to do so, find someone who is and have him whip it out etc. Most dogs get the idea pretty quickly — "Oh! I get it! We're peeing!" — and join right in. From there, it's the old command-and-praise routine. He'll figure it out.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:17 AM on February 20, 2006
If you get tired of waiting for him to start doing his business, your best bet is to whip it out and take a leak next to him — or, if you aren't suitably equipped to do so, find someone who is and have him whip it out etc. Most dogs get the idea pretty quickly — "Oh! I get it! We're peeing!" — and join right in. From there, it's the old command-and-praise routine. He'll figure it out.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:17 AM on February 20, 2006
Housetraining is all about using the dog's natural instinct to keep it's living area clean to build up a consistent habit of going outside to relieve itself. Crate training is great (but the crate MUST be small enough that the dog can't start happily using a corner of the crate as a bathroom), because it makes it very easy for the dog to do the right thing, and difficult for him to do the wrong thing (as long as you're humane and reasonable about it - sticking a dog in a crate for ten hours will just train your dog to over-ride his instinct not to soil his sleeping area, and is inhumane to boot).
Dogs repeat behaviours which work, and defecation and urination are intrinsically rewarding behaviours. This works to your advantage if you're diligent about taking the pup/dog out on a regular basis (every couple of hours for a puppy, and after every nap, meal and playtime), and then praise when he starts, then praise/treat/play like mad when he finishes relieving himself outside. However, this also works against you if you're lazy, since every time the dog relieves himself inside he is learning that the inside is the bathroom, and no amount of punishment will change that association (it will at best teach the dog to hide it, or hide from you, and at worst teach the dog that you are dangerous and unpredictable - dogs only have a few seconds of associative memory, where your actions can get them to associate their behaviour with positive or negative results).
Having a dog smell their waste and then treat them doesn't make sense, it's not smelling the waste that you want, it's MAKING the waste. But gentle praise when the dog sniffs can be beneficial, because many dogs prefer to sniff before they poop, and rewarding the precursor the behaviour can at least encourage the dog to repeat the behaviour, which may help. Me, I take my pup out religiously for the first few months, I endeavour to NEVER allow a single accident in the house (and I NEVER use puppy pee pads or newspaper, they just make it more confusing for the dog - in my house, the inside is never, ever the bathroom), I use gentle praise when the dog starts taking care of business (and that's also where I start adding in my cue word, which is a great diea) in an appropriate place, and throw a party for a minute or two when he's finished. If he starts inside, I interrupt, whisk him out, and repeat the "gentle praise/big party". There is no point in using punishment, especially for housetraining, and never, ever, ever rub a dog's nose in it, that's dangerous and cruel as well as pointless.
posted by biscotti at 5:38 AM on February 20, 2006
Dogs repeat behaviours which work, and defecation and urination are intrinsically rewarding behaviours. This works to your advantage if you're diligent about taking the pup/dog out on a regular basis (every couple of hours for a puppy, and after every nap, meal and playtime), and then praise when he starts, then praise/treat/play like mad when he finishes relieving himself outside. However, this also works against you if you're lazy, since every time the dog relieves himself inside he is learning that the inside is the bathroom, and no amount of punishment will change that association (it will at best teach the dog to hide it, or hide from you, and at worst teach the dog that you are dangerous and unpredictable - dogs only have a few seconds of associative memory, where your actions can get them to associate their behaviour with positive or negative results).
Having a dog smell their waste and then treat them doesn't make sense, it's not smelling the waste that you want, it's MAKING the waste. But gentle praise when the dog sniffs can be beneficial, because many dogs prefer to sniff before they poop, and rewarding the precursor the behaviour can at least encourage the dog to repeat the behaviour, which may help. Me, I take my pup out religiously for the first few months, I endeavour to NEVER allow a single accident in the house (and I NEVER use puppy pee pads or newspaper, they just make it more confusing for the dog - in my house, the inside is never, ever the bathroom), I use gentle praise when the dog starts taking care of business (and that's also where I start adding in my cue word, which is a great diea) in an appropriate place, and throw a party for a minute or two when he's finished. If he starts inside, I interrupt, whisk him out, and repeat the "gentle praise/big party". There is no point in using punishment, especially for housetraining, and never, ever, ever rub a dog's nose in it, that's dangerous and cruel as well as pointless.
posted by biscotti at 5:38 AM on February 20, 2006
Another vote for crate training.
My next dog won't get treats as a reward, though. It's too easy for me to turn a dog that gets treats for being good into a beggar. Next time I'll use verbal praise and play time with a rope, towel, or similar toy as positive reinforcement.
posted by xyzzy at 6:16 AM on February 20, 2006
My next dog won't get treats as a reward, though. It's too easy for me to turn a dog that gets treats for being good into a beggar. Next time I'll use verbal praise and play time with a rope, towel, or similar toy as positive reinforcement.
posted by xyzzy at 6:16 AM on February 20, 2006
A follow up on crate training: of course you will want to understand the length of time your puppy/dog can hold its bladder--which isn't very long at all for a puppy. It will take a long time before your dog can stay in a crate for any extended period of time. Do some research on the subject. Buy a good book on dog training that covers crate training as well. The more you understand about dog behavior, the less confused and frustrated you'll be by it.
And, only slightly OT, when your dog is a little older, consider an obedience class. It can be a good bonding and socializing opportunity for you and your dog. And it will result in a dog that you'll love living with--even if he/she only learns the most basic commands.
posted by wheat at 6:44 AM on February 20, 2006
And, only slightly OT, when your dog is a little older, consider an obedience class. It can be a good bonding and socializing opportunity for you and your dog. And it will result in a dog that you'll love living with--even if he/she only learns the most basic commands.
posted by wheat at 6:44 AM on February 20, 2006
Am I right and crate-ing is almost entirely an American phenomenon? Never heard of it in Europe/the UK
posted by A189Nut at 1:33 PM on February 20, 2006
posted by A189Nut at 1:33 PM on February 20, 2006
Something else I haven't seen anyone mention is to take the puppy out after every significant event (waking up, eating, playing, etc.) It's kind of a pain at first, but if you give the dog lots of chances to learn what you want it to do, you can housebreak a dog in a few days.
Oh, and I second xyzzy on the no-treats policy -- especially when they are little puppies, praise is more than enough of a reward. Treats (especially if given frequently) may upset the dog's stomach, making unpleasant "accidents" more of a problem.
posted by harkin banks at 2:10 PM on February 20, 2006
Oh, and I second xyzzy on the no-treats policy -- especially when they are little puppies, praise is more than enough of a reward. Treats (especially if given frequently) may upset the dog's stomach, making unpleasant "accidents" more of a problem.
posted by harkin banks at 2:10 PM on February 20, 2006
Also, your dog doesn't speak English. So yelling at it, or hitting it, just makes it think you are a crazy person. You can't reason with a dog. Just encourage the good behaviors and ignore the bad behaviors, and your dog will do everything it can to maximize the good behaviors.
posted by MrZero at 4:22 PM on February 20, 2006
posted by MrZero at 4:22 PM on February 20, 2006
Treats only encourage begging if you reward begging and/or use treats as bribes, rather than rewards. Dogs repeat behaviour which works - if you reward the dog for begging, of course he'll repeat the behaviour, it got him a reward in the past! Dogs don't differentiate between "sit=good" and "beg=bad", they differentiate between "sit got me a reward/begging didn't" - we unknowingly train our dogs to do all kinds of things we don't actually want them to learn, begging is one of the most common (as is teaching them NOT to come when you call). Praise is most definitely low on the list of reinforcements for most dogs. And I definitely disagree that appropriate treats, fed in appropriate amounts (with appropriate reduction in regular food to account for the calories) are in any way upsetting to most dogs' stomachs. A varied diet is healthy.
Use what works for you and your dog, but past misuse of treats (leading your dog to beg or have an upset stomach) is not a good reason in my opinion to eschew what is the single most effective behavioral reinforcer there is for most dogs. There are a limited number of reinforcers we have control over, and an even more limited number of highly effective reinforcers, food and play are about the best things we have. Learn to use them properly, but use them!
posted by biscotti at 5:13 PM on February 20, 2006
Use what works for you and your dog, but past misuse of treats (leading your dog to beg or have an upset stomach) is not a good reason in my opinion to eschew what is the single most effective behavioral reinforcer there is for most dogs. There are a limited number of reinforcers we have control over, and an even more limited number of highly effective reinforcers, food and play are about the best things we have. Learn to use them properly, but use them!
posted by biscotti at 5:13 PM on February 20, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you see them start to go, scoop them up and carry them outside. Praise mightily and give treats for going in the yard and not in the house. This has worked for me.
Where's biscotti, she has great advice for animal-related questions...
posted by Meredith at 9:20 PM on February 19, 2006