Say My Name, Say My Name
December 10, 2018 6:22 AM Subscribe
My WASP American father (age 70) cannot (will not?) pronounce my non-American husband's name nor my child's name which comes from my husband's culture. What can I do?
My husband's first name isn't one commonly found in the US, but is very pronounceable and is spelled phonetically. 90% of the time restaurant hosts, medical front office staff, customer service people, etc. say it perfectly. The other 10% of the time, the speaker says it mixing up the emphasis on the 1st versus 2nd syllable. Yet my father, who has known my husband for over a decade, consistently emphasizes the wrong syllable.
At the beginning I tried to give him some tricks. I told him that it was important to me that he say his name properly. I've also tried advocating with my mom to encourage her to help my dad say it properly. I gave up approximately 5 years ago though since nothing worked. My husband says that it doesn't bother him too much, but it does bother me.
I should also mention that I've long suspected my dad saying foreign words incorrectly on purpose to annoy me (Eye-talian, for example or Poke-man instead of Pokemon, or saying pho with a hard o at the end, despite being aware that that is not how it is said) - he seems to turn this behavior up a few notches in my "PC police" presence compared to doing this in front of other people. I've also heard him mispronounce non-English names for years and give names to people with non-English names without their consent or request. "I'll call you X." For example, a business associate named Raj becomes Roger; Miguel becomes Mike, etc. I once heard a neighbor say, "Actually I prefer Andres," but my dad continues to call him Andy.
We've had a child together and gave her a name that is from my husband's culture. We were incredibly sensitive to selecting a name that is very easily pronounced by native English speakers through both reading and hearing it. Yet so far, we've had no trouble with anyone pronouncing it - medical professionals, neighbors, etc.
But you've guessed it - except my dad. He's doing the same wrong syllable emphasis thing.
This has escalated my anger, but all I have done so far is to say the baby's name pronounced correctly frequently in his presence (which has been very limited so far). I have not yet started correcting him, but I think that that may be my next step. (Example, Dad: "Baby Annie," Me: "Baby Ah-ni." (Not the child's name, but similar issue).
I'm posting this in case there is an argument for letting this go... such as: my dad is 70. He sees the child briefly a few times each year. The child will likely hear her name mispronounced in her life, so she should get used to it. I don't know. I'm willing to hear people out as to why I should give up on this.
Or I'm also open to hearing ideas about approaching my dad (or mom) (again) with this.
My husband's first name isn't one commonly found in the US, but is very pronounceable and is spelled phonetically. 90% of the time restaurant hosts, medical front office staff, customer service people, etc. say it perfectly. The other 10% of the time, the speaker says it mixing up the emphasis on the 1st versus 2nd syllable. Yet my father, who has known my husband for over a decade, consistently emphasizes the wrong syllable.
At the beginning I tried to give him some tricks. I told him that it was important to me that he say his name properly. I've also tried advocating with my mom to encourage her to help my dad say it properly. I gave up approximately 5 years ago though since nothing worked. My husband says that it doesn't bother him too much, but it does bother me.
I should also mention that I've long suspected my dad saying foreign words incorrectly on purpose to annoy me (Eye-talian, for example or Poke-man instead of Pokemon, or saying pho with a hard o at the end, despite being aware that that is not how it is said) - he seems to turn this behavior up a few notches in my "PC police" presence compared to doing this in front of other people. I've also heard him mispronounce non-English names for years and give names to people with non-English names without their consent or request. "I'll call you X." For example, a business associate named Raj becomes Roger; Miguel becomes Mike, etc. I once heard a neighbor say, "Actually I prefer Andres," but my dad continues to call him Andy.
We've had a child together and gave her a name that is from my husband's culture. We were incredibly sensitive to selecting a name that is very easily pronounced by native English speakers through both reading and hearing it. Yet so far, we've had no trouble with anyone pronouncing it - medical professionals, neighbors, etc.
But you've guessed it - except my dad. He's doing the same wrong syllable emphasis thing.
This has escalated my anger, but all I have done so far is to say the baby's name pronounced correctly frequently in his presence (which has been very limited so far). I have not yet started correcting him, but I think that that may be my next step. (Example, Dad: "Baby Annie," Me: "Baby Ah-ni." (Not the child's name, but similar issue).
I'm posting this in case there is an argument for letting this go... such as: my dad is 70. He sees the child briefly a few times each year. The child will likely hear her name mispronounced in her life, so she should get used to it. I don't know. I'm willing to hear people out as to why I should give up on this.
Or I'm also open to hearing ideas about approaching my dad (or mom) (again) with this.
Have you tried asking your Dad questions about this, giving him the opportunity to tell you how he feels about stuff, whether he feels self conscious trying to pronounce unfamiliar names, whether he is angry about something (probably not justified, but who knows), whether he can actually hear the difference, etc?
The other thing I can tell you is that, if you end up in a situation where you're really trying to teach your Dad (and he's trying to learn), here's what a language teacher might do: start by making sure the student can _recognize_ the difference between the correct and incorrect pronunciation. Say it both ways a few times, and ask him to indicate, for each time you say something, whether it's the correct or incorrect pronunciation. This is lower pressure than "you say it right, right now", and is actually an important skill that sometimes gets skipped; if the student can't even recognize the differences, they won't be able to say them.
I totally get that your Dad probably knows the right way 100%; I'm just putting this out there in case you end up in a situation where he feels insecure about his language skills or something.
posted by amtho at 6:33 AM on December 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
The other thing I can tell you is that, if you end up in a situation where you're really trying to teach your Dad (and he's trying to learn), here's what a language teacher might do: start by making sure the student can _recognize_ the difference between the correct and incorrect pronunciation. Say it both ways a few times, and ask him to indicate, for each time you say something, whether it's the correct or incorrect pronunciation. This is lower pressure than "you say it right, right now", and is actually an important skill that sometimes gets skipped; if the student can't even recognize the differences, they won't be able to say them.
I totally get that your Dad probably knows the right way 100%; I'm just putting this out there in case you end up in a situation where he feels insecure about his language skills or something.
posted by amtho at 6:33 AM on December 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
A couple interpersonal-engineering ideas, both of which require getting your husband on board. (If he refuses to, I think that’s your argument for letting it go.)
Don’t get mad; ribbing you is his goal. (Being honest with him sounds like it’s only motivated him more, which sucks greatly.) Instead, act confused. Make it inconvenient for him to do it wrong. E.g.:
“When are you and [wrong pronunciation] coming to see us?”
“[blank stare/silence] I don’t know who that is.”
“Oh cmon, PC police.”
“Nope, no idea. Guess I and that person I don’t know aren’t coming.”
(fin)
He will know this is deliberate, but turning the tables and annoying him is a pretty good motivator with this kind of childish behavior. Getting your husband on board means not answering to it, and doing the same (as much as possible) for your daughter.
Or maybe ding training?
A lot of this depends on what motivates him.
posted by supercres at 6:40 AM on December 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
Don’t get mad; ribbing you is his goal. (Being honest with him sounds like it’s only motivated him more, which sucks greatly.) Instead, act confused. Make it inconvenient for him to do it wrong. E.g.:
“When are you and [wrong pronunciation] coming to see us?”
“[blank stare/silence] I don’t know who that is.”
“Oh cmon, PC police.”
“Nope, no idea. Guess I and that person I don’t know aren’t coming.”
(fin)
He will know this is deliberate, but turning the tables and annoying him is a pretty good motivator with this kind of childish behavior. Getting your husband on board means not answering to it, and doing the same (as much as possible) for your daughter.
Or maybe ding training?
A lot of this depends on what motivates him.
posted by supercres at 6:40 AM on December 10, 2018 [21 favorites]
I would not suggest giving up on it altogether, but in changing your focus from earnestly trying to make him understand to rolling your eyes at his willful ignorance. People like your father see this kind of bullying as a game, and as long as you are trying, they are winning. Your daughter will encounter people like that throughout her life, so teach her to see them as pathetic instead of powerful. Make his refusal to be accommodating an inside joke among your family. There's grandpa, being his stubborn closed self again. How sad for him that he's chosen not to learn new things or grow anymore. I never want to be like that, do you?
posted by headnsouth at 6:41 AM on December 10, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by headnsouth at 6:41 AM on December 10, 2018 [16 favorites]
Your dad is not stupid (presumably). He is doing this on purpose, has done this to other people, and is now doing it to your husband and child. Mispronouncing names like this, or giving people English names, is a not-so-subtle sign of Othering. It is 100% racist and 100% not ok. I'm sorry your dad is behaving in this racist manner and that you are caught in the middle. I know the easy, make-nice solution is to let this go because dad is old, grandparents are important, etc etc.
But please don't let this go. Your baby doesn't need people in her life who can't be bothered to say her name properly. (I mean, neither does your husband but I assume he can pick his own battles.) If other people who barely know your kid can manage to say her name right, your dad can too. He is actively choosing not to.
If I were in your situation, I would make it clear to my dad that he won't be seeing the baby unless he can pronounce her name. You guys are over for dinner and he mispronounces the kid's name? Bye-bye. I know that's not the nice answer. But your job is to look out for your kid's feelings, not your dad's. And while she might have a lifetime of dealing with this (which I doubt) she should not have to deal with being Othered by her own family.
posted by basalganglia at 6:42 AM on December 10, 2018 [180 favorites]
But please don't let this go. Your baby doesn't need people in her life who can't be bothered to say her name properly. (I mean, neither does your husband but I assume he can pick his own battles.) If other people who barely know your kid can manage to say her name right, your dad can too. He is actively choosing not to.
If I were in your situation, I would make it clear to my dad that he won't be seeing the baby unless he can pronounce her name. You guys are over for dinner and he mispronounces the kid's name? Bye-bye. I know that's not the nice answer. But your job is to look out for your kid's feelings, not your dad's. And while she might have a lifetime of dealing with this (which I doubt) she should not have to deal with being Othered by her own family.
posted by basalganglia at 6:42 AM on December 10, 2018 [180 favorites]
basalganglia said it better but how about... tell your Dad he's being racist, he's doing the same thing as people in the 1950s who insisted on calling Muhammad Ali “Cassius Clay”, and it's the fucking 21st century and you're not going to cover for him; so his grandchild is going to remember him as a racist asshole.
Your child is going to spend his whole life having to figure out whether people are being covertly racist. You aren't going to help your Dad trip the kid up early on by teaching him he's got to accept it passively.
posted by XMLicious at 6:44 AM on December 10, 2018 [26 favorites]
Your child is going to spend his whole life having to figure out whether people are being covertly racist. You aren't going to help your Dad trip the kid up early on by teaching him he's got to accept it passively.
posted by XMLicious at 6:44 AM on December 10, 2018 [26 favorites]
I should also mention that I've long suspected my dad saying foreign words incorrectly on purpose to annoy me (Eye-talian, for example or Poke-man instead of Pokemon, or saying pho with a hard o at the end, despite being aware that that is not how it is said)
I think you're being a bit precious about English pronunciation of foreign words. That being said, when it comes to pronouncing your daughter's name, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Parents can be dicks about this sort of thing too: my father's parents deliberately reversed the order of my sister's first and middle names for years because they preferred them that way.
My 12-year-old daughter goes to a French-speaking school and has an English name that people often confuse with a similar-sounding French name. She's been offended by people getting her name wrong since before she started school, so if your father cares, he should shape the fuck up.
My daughter's strategy from a young age, learned from her mother, has been to correct people gently a time or two, but if they continue using the wrong name, she just refuses to acknowledge them until they use her correct name. She did this to a teacher in class just last week in fact, and it is quite effective.
posted by cardboard at 6:44 AM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
I think you're being a bit precious about English pronunciation of foreign words. That being said, when it comes to pronouncing your daughter's name, that's a whole different kettle of fish. Parents can be dicks about this sort of thing too: my father's parents deliberately reversed the order of my sister's first and middle names for years because they preferred them that way.
My 12-year-old daughter goes to a French-speaking school and has an English name that people often confuse with a similar-sounding French name. She's been offended by people getting her name wrong since before she started school, so if your father cares, he should shape the fuck up.
My daughter's strategy from a young age, learned from her mother, has been to correct people gently a time or two, but if they continue using the wrong name, she just refuses to acknowledge them until they use her correct name. She did this to a teacher in class just last week in fact, and it is quite effective.
posted by cardboard at 6:44 AM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
'Dad, one day your granddaughter is going to ask us why her grandfather never says her name right, and why he never says her father's name right either. What do you want us to tell her?'
I agree with the other commenters about making sure he doesn't really have some auditory or language issues that he's covering up for. But if it turns out he's just taking an "anti-PC" stand, I think it's worth reminding him that he's taking things out on real people, and that whatever he feels about other cultures is no excuse for forgetting good, old-fashioned etiquette and manners.
posted by trig at 6:46 AM on December 10, 2018 [113 favorites]
I agree with the other commenters about making sure he doesn't really have some auditory or language issues that he's covering up for. But if it turns out he's just taking an "anti-PC" stand, I think it's worth reminding him that he's taking things out on real people, and that whatever he feels about other cultures is no excuse for forgetting good, old-fashioned etiquette and manners.
posted by trig at 6:46 AM on December 10, 2018 [113 favorites]
I'm not sure there is a good argument for letting this go. Yes, baby will likely hear her name mispronounced all of her life but it's not unreasonable for you (or her when she gets older) to expect people to pronounce it correctly once they're told how to pronounce it. I say this with a difficult to pronounce last name. It's her name and names are linked to identity. It's not rude or pretentious to insist that it is pronounced correctly. And just because, here's a link to my favorite anecdote on names.
posted by pumpkinlatte at 6:50 AM on December 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by pumpkinlatte at 6:50 AM on December 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
So I didn't realize this until I became a professor for a while, but a lot of adults have really genuine anxiety about trying to pronounce non-English words, even if the word in question is actually very easy to pronounce and consists entirely of sounds found in English and they've just heard someone say it correctly. I don't know why this exists, but it is a real thing! So keep in mind that while it's possible your dad is just being an asshole on purpose, it's also possible that being a dick about this is something of a cover for real, irrational anxiety about embarrassing himself by trying and failing to get it right. Have you ever heard him say either name correctly?
Here's what worked for me when it came to getting students to pronounce foreign words correctly: make them repeat the word directly after me, going 2 syllables at a time. So if I need the class to learn to say Tathāgatagarbha: "Everyone repeat after me. Tathā. Tathāgata. Tathāgatagarbha." Usually there's not a problem after that.
posted by waffleriot at 6:51 AM on December 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
Here's what worked for me when it came to getting students to pronounce foreign words correctly: make them repeat the word directly after me, going 2 syllables at a time. So if I need the class to learn to say Tathāgatagarbha: "Everyone repeat after me. Tathā. Tathāgata. Tathāgatagarbha." Usually there's not a problem after that.
posted by waffleriot at 6:51 AM on December 10, 2018 [13 favorites]
As someone with a name that is very common in several European countries but mispronounced frequently in English, I find it's really super disrespectful when people continue to pronounce my name wrong, despite me & others correcting them. I agree that it's racist/xenophobic/othering. I appreciate when other people try & take the burden off me a little in terms of advocating for the correct pronunciation of my name. I don't have any sage advice on how you should try to handle things, but thank you for being willing to!
posted by diffuse at 6:53 AM on December 10, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by diffuse at 6:53 AM on December 10, 2018 [14 favorites]
You are 100% correct that your dad has heard the correct pronunciations but is doing them wrong on purpose as a performative thing, a passive aggressive rejection of what is foreign to his ears. Wonderful people we love sometimes do dick moves like this. My dad--who was, on balance, a lovely man--did this as well.
My spouse's favorite cousin and her husband are a big part of our lives. We visit each other regularly and they're our kid's godparents. They each have five letter names pronounced phonetically, with no especially challenging phonemes. My dad butchered them every single time, and usually managed to do so whilst seemingly suffering from mild choking, as though the sheer strain of addressing people not named "Mike" or "Janet" was killing him. It only stopped when he died. I always wanted to challenge him on this, but the cousins being the mildest people ever, they insisted we let it go. I gave a lot of thought to other options though...
There are a variety of passive aggressive options available to you, ranging from giving him an annoying nickname he will hate and calling him that to refusing to acknowledge any use of the wrong pronunciation. Those are petty but satisfying routes that won't change anything and might makes things worse.
But the best way, the being-the-better-person way, and honestly the way that is more likely to work is trig's suggestion:
My spouse's favorite cousin and her husband are a big part of our lives. We visit each other regularly and they're our kid's godparents. They each have five letter names pronounced phonetically, with no especially challenging phonemes. My dad butchered them every single time, and usually managed to do so whilst seemingly suffering from mild choking, as though the sheer strain of addressing people not named "Mike" or "Janet" was killing him. It only stopped when he died. I always wanted to challenge him on this, but the cousins being the mildest people ever, they insisted we let it go. I gave a lot of thought to other options though...
There are a variety of passive aggressive options available to you, ranging from giving him an annoying nickname he will hate and calling him that to refusing to acknowledge any use of the wrong pronunciation. Those are petty but satisfying routes that won't change anything and might makes things worse.
But the best way, the being-the-better-person way, and honestly the way that is more likely to work is trig's suggestion:
'Dad, one day your granddaughter is going to ask us why her grandfather never says her name right, and why he never says her father's name right either. What do you want us to tell her?'You could even throw the words of Conservative Dad Approved Thinker/Writer Dale Carnegie at him:
“Remember that a person’s name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language”posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:54 AM on December 10, 2018 [30 favorites]
This is maybe not the high road but I might decide that as a family we will start cheerfully referring to him as “grand-PA” from here on out bc “that’s just the way we say it.”
posted by sestaaak at 6:59 AM on December 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by sestaaak at 6:59 AM on December 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
There are issues where my dad deliberately pushes my buttons, very very similar to your PC police comment. I very much understand your dad's behavior here and your feelings about it are totally valid. It drove my dad batty when I stopped responding to his bait. Knocked the wind right out of his sails. If I were in your shoes, whenever your dad did the name thing, I'd look directly at him to acknowledge that I'd heard him, and then just go on doing what I was doing. Blank expression is key. My dad stopped the behavior when he realized that he couldn't get a rise out of me anymore.
I was also told at a young age that my Irish-American paternal grandfather was racist AF. I still loved the old man, but I'm also glad my parents had that conversation with me.
posted by Ruki at 6:59 AM on December 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
I was also told at a young age that my Irish-American paternal grandfather was racist AF. I still loved the old man, but I'm also glad my parents had that conversation with me.
posted by Ruki at 6:59 AM on December 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
"I love you dad, but I do not want to have to explain to my daughter why you refuse to pronounce her name correctly. So, every time you mispronounce it, we're going to leave. You get to decide how much time you'd like to spend with your granddaughter before you die, starting right now."
Note: you have to actually leave when he tests you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:16 AM on December 10, 2018 [52 favorites]
Note: you have to actually leave when he tests you.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:16 AM on December 10, 2018 [52 favorites]
Mostly I find the MeFi PC thing draining and overblown, but a name is a name and a child is a child. Your husband is a grownup and can choose for himself to put up with your father but I’d say you should tell dad he’s not allowed in his grandchild’s presence until he pronounces their name correctly. And then stick to it.
I do my share of mispronouncing my grandkids’ names as a tease once they’re old enough to understand. But they sure as hell know I know how they really go in spite of the joshing.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 7:16 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I do my share of mispronouncing my grandkids’ names as a tease once they’re old enough to understand. But they sure as hell know I know how they really go in spite of the joshing.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 7:16 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I think people are being pretty quick to judge your dad here as an unrepentant, passive-aggressive racist. If he's an otherwise good guy, it's quite possible he's got some insecurity about cultures he isn't familiar with, is worried about getting things wrong, and sticks to pronunciations that seem familiar because at least if it's obviously wrong, he can't be made to feel badly for trying to get it right and failing. My 68 year old mother said Eye-talian even while we were in Italy, and she loved it there and she isn't racist against Italian people. She grew up saying it and I don't think she even realizes she does it.
So, being mad and saying nothing to your dad is not the right strategy. Ask him why he doesn't say your husband and daughter's names right. Tell him it's important to you. Be kind and honest. Unless your dad is a huge asshole, this is a solvable problem, but right now you're being passive-aggressive, too, and you're going to keep running in circles until you address it head on.
posted by something something at 7:16 AM on December 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
So, being mad and saying nothing to your dad is not the right strategy. Ask him why he doesn't say your husband and daughter's names right. Tell him it's important to you. Be kind and honest. Unless your dad is a huge asshole, this is a solvable problem, but right now you're being passive-aggressive, too, and you're going to keep running in circles until you address it head on.
posted by something something at 7:16 AM on December 10, 2018 [15 favorites]
This is a little orthogonal to your question, but I had a grandparent who flatly refused to use one grandchild's given name, because as a child he had been badly abused by someone with that name. So instead, he gave her a special nickname, and just called her that for the next 15 years until he died. This turned it from a point of intrafamily contention (the parents were not super-happy he wouldn't use the name; he was pretty furious they chose the name) into a special and affectionate thing between the two of them and let everyone sidestep the complicated family dynamics around the name.
So it wouldn't SOLVE your father's problem (like it didn't solve the problem in my family), but if you feel like you'd rather sidestep the issue than fight with your dad about it (especially if you suspect it'll be an annoying and fruitless fight that never ends), you might suggest to him that if he finds her name difficult, he give her a nickname and he can just call her "Cricket" or "Bubbles" or "Miss Snugglepants" or whatever.
It's not a victory, it's a truce. And there's definitely a lot to be said for addressing your father's apparent racism head-on. But there also is a point where you want to maintain a relationship, and you get tired of your mom being in the middle, and you get tired of constantly fighting about it, and a truce is better than nothing.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:19 AM on December 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
So it wouldn't SOLVE your father's problem (like it didn't solve the problem in my family), but if you feel like you'd rather sidestep the issue than fight with your dad about it (especially if you suspect it'll be an annoying and fruitless fight that never ends), you might suggest to him that if he finds her name difficult, he give her a nickname and he can just call her "Cricket" or "Bubbles" or "Miss Snugglepants" or whatever.
It's not a victory, it's a truce. And there's definitely a lot to be said for addressing your father's apparent racism head-on. But there also is a point where you want to maintain a relationship, and you get tired of your mom being in the middle, and you get tired of constantly fighting about it, and a truce is better than nothing.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:19 AM on December 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
My grandmother did this.
In a way, she was being deliberately mean and racist, but simultaneously, she couldn't figure out how to say those names for real. If that makes any sense?
It seemed really weird to me: she literally couldn't pronounce Maria, with an a at the end, because she had only heard Marie, with an e, until she was fairly adult. Or rather, she could, but it was something she needed to think about every single time, and usually she just didn't bother.
At the end of her life, she gave her great-grandchildren numbers when she thought their names were weird.
On the other hand, she really loved the kids she got to know (Those whose parents didn't give up on her). Even if she called them numbers or mispronounced their names. I asked her about it, and she said that basically after a certain age she had given up on some stuff. She was aware that she was rude, but she couldn't see it mattered much when she loved and cared for the kids.
Also, I hate the way my mum speaks. It's some sort of jargon that was fashionable when she was young, but now it's just an ongoing embarrassment. It sounds stupid. Sometimes I get really angry and shout at her for it. But really, it's a lost cause. She has grown into that jargon and speaks no other language.
TBH, I'd just try to ignore your dad, if he were my dad. I really get your frustration, but it is not important in the long run.
posted by mumimor at 7:22 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
In a way, she was being deliberately mean and racist, but simultaneously, she couldn't figure out how to say those names for real. If that makes any sense?
It seemed really weird to me: she literally couldn't pronounce Maria, with an a at the end, because she had only heard Marie, with an e, until she was fairly adult. Or rather, she could, but it was something she needed to think about every single time, and usually she just didn't bother.
At the end of her life, she gave her great-grandchildren numbers when she thought their names were weird.
On the other hand, she really loved the kids she got to know (Those whose parents didn't give up on her). Even if she called them numbers or mispronounced their names. I asked her about it, and she said that basically after a certain age she had given up on some stuff. She was aware that she was rude, but she couldn't see it mattered much when she loved and cared for the kids.
Also, I hate the way my mum speaks. It's some sort of jargon that was fashionable when she was young, but now it's just an ongoing embarrassment. It sounds stupid. Sometimes I get really angry and shout at her for it. But really, it's a lost cause. She has grown into that jargon and speaks no other language.
TBH, I'd just try to ignore your dad, if he were my dad. I really get your frustration, but it is not important in the long run.
posted by mumimor at 7:22 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Just personally, I'd drop the issue of your husband's name unless it is really bothering him, since he is a grownup and can help pick his own battles. But I would be inclined to hold the line with your daughter's name. I'm not saying to have a big fight about it, but I would go for a very direct "That is not her name, please don't call her that" and make it clear that this is a non-negotiable thing.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:22 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Dip Flash at 7:22 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is hard for me. I have exactly the same name issue with my child - picked to be pronounceable to English speakers, but turned out to be surprisingly hard for them.
My mom got the syllable emphasis wrong for upwards of a year after he was born (same deal - emphasis should be on first syllable, she kept putting it on the second syllable). Worse, if you do that, it makes his name sound like an object that is.. definitely not a name.
She's finally got it sorted out but it took a long time. We mostly ignored and cringed during that time. I can't lie, it was hard, and I felt a lot better once she FIIINALLY figured it out.
I have a really hard time comprehending why it's so hard for her, but it legitimately is. (She's never been good at sounding out unfamiliar words, despite being highly educated.) I know it's legitimate because recently my husband's mother came to visit, and my mom REALLY wanted to get her name right. So we did drills. On multiple days. For minutes at a time. (Invented name, parallel errors)
Me: TA bi tha
Mom: ta BEE tha
Me: No, TA bi tha. Emphasis on the first syllable, ih sound, not ee.
Mom: OK, got it. ta BEE tha?
Me: [facepalm.] No. TAAA biiii thaaaa.
Mom: TA beether?
Me: No. TA bi tha.
Mom: ta BEE tha.
and on and on and on.
She wasn't being wilfully dense, she really really wanted to be a good host, and despite the cringeworthiness, she just couldn't say it. It's not really that much harder of a name to say than Tabitha, but it's not in her mental roster of names and her brain just wouldn't wrap around it.
posted by telepanda at 7:24 AM on December 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
My mom got the syllable emphasis wrong for upwards of a year after he was born (same deal - emphasis should be on first syllable, she kept putting it on the second syllable). Worse, if you do that, it makes his name sound like an object that is.. definitely not a name.
She's finally got it sorted out but it took a long time. We mostly ignored and cringed during that time. I can't lie, it was hard, and I felt a lot better once she FIIINALLY figured it out.
I have a really hard time comprehending why it's so hard for her, but it legitimately is. (She's never been good at sounding out unfamiliar words, despite being highly educated.) I know it's legitimate because recently my husband's mother came to visit, and my mom REALLY wanted to get her name right. So we did drills. On multiple days. For minutes at a time. (Invented name, parallel errors)
Me: TA bi tha
Mom: ta BEE tha
Me: No, TA bi tha. Emphasis on the first syllable, ih sound, not ee.
Mom: OK, got it. ta BEE tha?
Me: [facepalm.] No. TAAA biiii thaaaa.
Mom: TA beether?
Me: No. TA bi tha.
Mom: ta BEE tha.
and on and on and on.
She wasn't being wilfully dense, she really really wanted to be a good host, and despite the cringeworthiness, she just couldn't say it. It's not really that much harder of a name to say than Tabitha, but it's not in her mental roster of names and her brain just wouldn't wrap around it.
posted by telepanda at 7:24 AM on December 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Ironically(?), my mom spent much of my grandma's old age (while she still had her faculties) trying to correct EYE-talian and ha-WYY-uh (Hawaii), with similarly little luck.
posted by telepanda at 7:28 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by telepanda at 7:28 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
My husband’s family almost never spelled our kids’ names correctly on Christmas cards. It became a joke that even the odd time they got one right it was only because they happened to guess correctly that time. We rolled our eyes and the kids formed their own opinions about people who can’t be bothered to learn the correct spellings of their niece and nephew’s names.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:29 AM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 7:29 AM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
I have a learning disability that makes it very difficult for me to hear the differences between pronunciations. As in I was sent to have my hearing tested multiple times in grade school. Nothing is wrong with the hardware, but my software has some major bugs. And I really really struggle pronouncing people's names. Just read all the answers you've gotten from people pissed that anyone has ever mispronounced their name or their child's name and you can imagine the anxiety and stress I've developed about this.
This also extends to all words (like pokemon!), not just names, and multiple teachers told my parents they thought I was mentally deficient and were shocked at my test scores. Basically I struggle with pronouncing names and words so everyone either thinks I'm an idiot or an asshole.
I don't know if your father has the same problems or is just a flaming dick, but it's entirely possible he struggles to hear differences and is using being a dick as a defense mechanism. He either has people thinking he's stupid, or he has people thinking he's an asshole, and for a lot of people the second option is far more palatable.
It's also possible he has this problem AND he's a racist jerk.
posted by Dynex at 7:31 AM on December 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
This also extends to all words (like pokemon!), not just names, and multiple teachers told my parents they thought I was mentally deficient and were shocked at my test scores. Basically I struggle with pronouncing names and words so everyone either thinks I'm an idiot or an asshole.
I don't know if your father has the same problems or is just a flaming dick, but it's entirely possible he struggles to hear differences and is using being a dick as a defense mechanism. He either has people thinking he's stupid, or he has people thinking he's an asshole, and for a lot of people the second option is far more palatable.
It's also possible he has this problem AND he's a racist jerk.
posted by Dynex at 7:31 AM on December 10, 2018 [23 favorites]
New idea: STONE COLD EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION.
The next time grandpa asks what granddaughter wants for Christmas, pause, let some tears well up in your eyes for dramatic effect and tell him all she wants for Christmas is for Grandpa to learn her name.
Unless he's totally dead inside, that is pretty much sticking it in and breaking it off. Should work.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:36 AM on December 10, 2018 [41 favorites]
The next time grandpa asks what granddaughter wants for Christmas, pause, let some tears well up in your eyes for dramatic effect and tell him all she wants for Christmas is for Grandpa to learn her name.
Unless he's totally dead inside, that is pretty much sticking it in and breaking it off. Should work.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:36 AM on December 10, 2018 [41 favorites]
Until she died my grandfather's wife spelled my name incorrectly on every card. When she said it aloud it sounded right, but I knew she was spelling it wrong in her head. (Think Alci instead of Elsie.) And even from a young age I knew this was disrespectful and it felt like she didn't care about me enough to even learn the spelling of my name.
(My dad, bless his heart, proceeded to call her Louise instead of Lois for the rest of HIS life.)
So you might want to let your dad know that as soon as your daughter is old enough to understand she's going to get her feelings hurt and think that he doesn't care about her. Names are important. And refusing to acknowledge the spelling or pronunciation of names is sort of like denying someone's identity and choosing one that you find more acceptable. Who does that?
posted by elsietheeel at 7:36 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
(My dad, bless his heart, proceeded to call her Louise instead of Lois for the rest of HIS life.)
So you might want to let your dad know that as soon as your daughter is old enough to understand she's going to get her feelings hurt and think that he doesn't care about her. Names are important. And refusing to acknowledge the spelling or pronunciation of names is sort of like denying someone's identity and choosing one that you find more acceptable. Who does that?
posted by elsietheeel at 7:36 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh come on people, this is racism. He knows how to say it and refuses. Stop being OK with this shit.
I had an idea similar to sestaaak's comment, but with his actual name, mostly because it would be a great lesson for him. Perhaps a serious conversation would follow.
e.g.
Your husband: Rah-BURT, how are you?
Your dad: *confusion* What did you say/call me?
Your husband: Rah-BURT.
Your dad: It's "RAH-burt."
Your husband: I'll call you "Rah-BURT"
Your dad: No, my name is RAH-burt. It's not that difficult.
You: Oh, but it's hard for you to pronounce his name, so maybe give him a break. It's fine.
Your dad: It's not fine. It's important to me.
You: Well, it's important to everyone that their name is pronounced correctly. Maybe you could practice on Ahmed and Padma's names.
...
etc.
posted by ancient star at 7:37 AM on December 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
I had an idea similar to sestaaak's comment, but with his actual name, mostly because it would be a great lesson for him. Perhaps a serious conversation would follow.
e.g.
Your husband: Rah-BURT, how are you?
Your dad: *confusion* What did you say/call me?
Your husband: Rah-BURT.
Your dad: It's "RAH-burt."
Your husband: I'll call you "Rah-BURT"
Your dad: No, my name is RAH-burt. It's not that difficult.
You: Oh, but it's hard for you to pronounce his name, so maybe give him a break. It's fine.
Your dad: It's not fine. It's important to me.
You: Well, it's important to everyone that their name is pronounced correctly. Maybe you could practice on Ahmed and Padma's names.
...
etc.
posted by ancient star at 7:37 AM on December 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
Call him "Dud" until he shapes up. Or use his given name, mispronounced.
posted by notsnot at 7:38 AM on December 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by notsnot at 7:38 AM on December 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Some language teachers just repeat the word that's being pronounced wrong, correctly. Every single time. Look at the person while forming the word so they can see your mouth. If they object to being corrected, you can ask them what they are finding hard about it. If you don't want to play the part of a language teacher, just use the name in the very next sentence, emphasizing the pronunciation. (Personally I find that latter move kind of dickish; it seems a bit passive-aggressive and it might backfire; I'd rather just be open about correcting them.)
If this were my family member, I would just keep repeating this process until they get tired of it and stop, or start complaining and then they can have it explained to them why it's important to pronounce people's names correctly.
posted by BibiRose at 7:43 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
If this were my family member, I would just keep repeating this process until they get tired of it and stop, or start complaining and then they can have it explained to them why it's important to pronounce people's names correctly.
posted by BibiRose at 7:43 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
I have not yet started correcting him, but I think that that may be my next step.
I just re-read this, and oh my gosh yes, correct him! And ask him specifically if he can hear the difference between first-NAME and FIRST-name. The "PC Police" stuff and Andres/Andy example makes me suspect he will just dig in his heels and continue to mispronounce, but at least that will take concerns that he is anxious about his language skills or has some form of disability off the table.
(As someone who has an uncommon but phonetically spelled name, I can tell you that I know the difference when someone is being racist and when someone is trying but can't hear what I'm saying. People who are trying don't unilaterally make up fake names, for instance.)
posted by basalganglia at 7:51 AM on December 10, 2018 [20 favorites]
I just re-read this, and oh my gosh yes, correct him! And ask him specifically if he can hear the difference between first-NAME and FIRST-name. The "PC Police" stuff and Andres/Andy example makes me suspect he will just dig in his heels and continue to mispronounce, but at least that will take concerns that he is anxious about his language skills or has some form of disability off the table.
(As someone who has an uncommon but phonetically spelled name, I can tell you that I know the difference when someone is being racist and when someone is trying but can't hear what I'm saying. People who are trying don't unilaterally make up fake names, for instance.)
posted by basalganglia at 7:51 AM on December 10, 2018 [20 favorites]
It's disheartening to see people here dismiss this as unimportant or make excuses for your dad's (lifelong, deliberate, obnoxious) behavior by comparing it to other actually valid problems they've seen or had over the years. I feel like probably not everyone has had actual experience with being on the receiving end of the deliberate othering and childish snubbing and casual racism that your dad has spent his entire life amusing himself with.
I agree with various comments above that you should just remove yourself and your family from the situation every time it occurs. Give him a final warning, yes, absolutely, but then you 100% have to stick to your guns and leave immediately when he smirks and calls your husband some infantilizing nickname or pretends he doesn't know the name of his own granddaughter.
Also as your daughter gets older and this shitty behavior continues, it's so so so so important for you to frequently and repeatedly reassure her that it's not her fault, that her name isn't inherently mockable, and that her granddad is, unfortunately like many people she will meet in her life, a racist. I do think, in situations with small kids, that it's okay to give them the white lie of "he's too old and set in his ways to change" rather than just busting out with the ugly truth of "he loves his hate more than he loves you" but recognize that the latter is something she will eventually come to realize and need to work through. As long as she knows that you and her dad won't stand for his behavior, and that she has your full support, I think it will make this somewhat easier for her to handle when she's old enough to realize what's going on.
You might also want to check with your husband, if you haven't already, to see if your dad's behavior towards him gets worse when you are out of the room or otherwise not present. If so, then definitely do your best to not let your dad be around your kid(s) alone in the future, because it's really horrible to be a child and know that someone is cheerfully saying something hurtful to you and not having the words or skills or emotional ability to make them stop.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:54 AM on December 10, 2018 [44 favorites]
I agree with various comments above that you should just remove yourself and your family from the situation every time it occurs. Give him a final warning, yes, absolutely, but then you 100% have to stick to your guns and leave immediately when he smirks and calls your husband some infantilizing nickname or pretends he doesn't know the name of his own granddaughter.
Also as your daughter gets older and this shitty behavior continues, it's so so so so important for you to frequently and repeatedly reassure her that it's not her fault, that her name isn't inherently mockable, and that her granddad is, unfortunately like many people she will meet in her life, a racist. I do think, in situations with small kids, that it's okay to give them the white lie of "he's too old and set in his ways to change" rather than just busting out with the ugly truth of "he loves his hate more than he loves you" but recognize that the latter is something she will eventually come to realize and need to work through. As long as she knows that you and her dad won't stand for his behavior, and that she has your full support, I think it will make this somewhat easier for her to handle when she's old enough to realize what's going on.
You might also want to check with your husband, if you haven't already, to see if your dad's behavior towards him gets worse when you are out of the room or otherwise not present. If so, then definitely do your best to not let your dad be around your kid(s) alone in the future, because it's really horrible to be a child and know that someone is cheerfully saying something hurtful to you and not having the words or skills or emotional ability to make them stop.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:54 AM on December 10, 2018 [44 favorites]
This is assuming he has the capacity to say it properly.
When you had a child, you entered into a contract to raise that child well. That obligation is paramount. If your father is racist to the child and her dad, you are obliged to protect her from that racism. That means calling it out and eventually distancing yourselves from him if he doesn't stop. Tender little brains need to learn that their integrity and boundaries will be protected, and family relationships are how that learning happens. It's one thing for an adult who has developed resilience and coping mechanisms to put up with racism, but if a little kid sees it being unchallenged over and over again, particularly if the racism is directed towards them and one of their parents, that can fuck them up for life. So yeah, even if you will mourn the relationship, even if you get disowned, even if the kid doesnt get childcare from your parents, etc - if he won't stop, you need to stop him, and if he still won't stop, he needs to be cut off. Maybe you can come back when the child is a teenager and has learned more adult skills, but not right now while her brain is forming. This goes even more so as she is growing up as a little girl and he's a man.
posted by Mistress at 8:08 AM on December 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
When you had a child, you entered into a contract to raise that child well. That obligation is paramount. If your father is racist to the child and her dad, you are obliged to protect her from that racism. That means calling it out and eventually distancing yourselves from him if he doesn't stop. Tender little brains need to learn that their integrity and boundaries will be protected, and family relationships are how that learning happens. It's one thing for an adult who has developed resilience and coping mechanisms to put up with racism, but if a little kid sees it being unchallenged over and over again, particularly if the racism is directed towards them and one of their parents, that can fuck them up for life. So yeah, even if you will mourn the relationship, even if you get disowned, even if the kid doesnt get childcare from your parents, etc - if he won't stop, you need to stop him, and if he still won't stop, he needs to be cut off. Maybe you can come back when the child is a teenager and has learned more adult skills, but not right now while her brain is forming. This goes even more so as she is growing up as a little girl and he's a man.
posted by Mistress at 8:08 AM on December 10, 2018 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, the possibility of a speech/learning impediment has been raised. It does not need to be re-raised. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:09 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:09 AM on December 10, 2018 [4 favorites]
Stick to your guns. You're not overreacting, this is just Not. Okay. His age is not an excuse, he's old enough to have adjusted to all sorts of things, including his daughter being old enough to have a child of her own. He doesn't get to reap the respect of being the family elder AND be petty at the same time.
Yes, correct him every single time, for both your husband's and your kiddo's names. If your husband doesn't want to do the active correcting, that's okay, but he needs to agree to not verbally handwave your dad's behavior, no saying "oh, it's okay, I know what you meant" or anything like that. This is between you and your father, and your husband needs to not undermine your feelings. You two should negotiate a stock response for your husband to make for when your dad straight up says to him "you don't mind, DO YOU?"
My experience is that trying to come up with something equally/similarly infuriating as an explanation doesn't tend to work. It's just too easy to say "nah that doesn't bother me" (even if it would) or "oh that's just not the same thing" (no, it's a comparison.) I've never found sarcasm or joking to help, either.
If incessant correction doesn't budge him, you might try another come-to-Jesus talk containing the following elements:
a) This is incredibly hurtful to me.
b) How I feel about this is not going to change. I will never get used to it, or NOT be hurt badly by your behavior. Ever.
c) You can privately think that I'm being petty if you want to, but refer to b, above.
d) Think hard about why you are so stubbornly refusing to say my husband and child's name correctly. Is this really the hill you're going to die on? (Okay, maybe use a different colloquial saying, but that's the idea.)
posted by desuetude at 8:30 AM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yes, correct him every single time, for both your husband's and your kiddo's names. If your husband doesn't want to do the active correcting, that's okay, but he needs to agree to not verbally handwave your dad's behavior, no saying "oh, it's okay, I know what you meant" or anything like that. This is between you and your father, and your husband needs to not undermine your feelings. You two should negotiate a stock response for your husband to make for when your dad straight up says to him "you don't mind, DO YOU?"
My experience is that trying to come up with something equally/similarly infuriating as an explanation doesn't tend to work. It's just too easy to say "nah that doesn't bother me" (even if it would) or "oh that's just not the same thing" (no, it's a comparison.) I've never found sarcasm or joking to help, either.
If incessant correction doesn't budge him, you might try another come-to-Jesus talk containing the following elements:
a) This is incredibly hurtful to me.
b) How I feel about this is not going to change. I will never get used to it, or NOT be hurt badly by your behavior. Ever.
c) You can privately think that I'm being petty if you want to, but refer to b, above.
d) Think hard about why you are so stubbornly refusing to say my husband and child's name correctly. Is this really the hill you're going to die on? (Okay, maybe use a different colloquial saying, but that's the idea.)
posted by desuetude at 8:30 AM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is racist and/or xenophobic behavior. Given the other details you shared, he is doing this on purpose. It's disrespectful to your husband and possibly downright abusive to your daughter, who will grow up with a grandfather that put her down constantly by mispronouncing her name. You need to protect your child and tell him this is unacceptable and he must change.
posted by coffeeand at 8:34 AM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by coffeeand at 8:34 AM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seriously if he can't offer basic respect to his SIL & Granddaughter do either of those people need to be around him. Do you need to be around him? Give him one shot to improve it. A heart to heart saying how much it hurts you that he does it. If he still doesn't he doesn't care that it hurts you, that might be something you want to think about. Do you want to be around a person that doesn't respect your family or care if they hurt you?
posted by wwax at 8:40 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by wwax at 8:40 AM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
P.S. This is racist, yes. But calling it racism will probably not be an effective way to get him to stop doing it. It will be far easier to get a stubborn 70 year old WASP to pronounce his grandchild's and son-in-law's names correctly for the sake of family harmony rather than expecting him to quickly grasp the concept and impact of racial microaggressions. One step at a time.
posted by desuetude at 8:40 AM on December 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by desuetude at 8:40 AM on December 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
My father reliably misspells the name of my wife of eleven years and mispronounces the name of my 9 year old daughter.
I am willing to speak out in favour of letting it go just because you don't gain anything by being angrier than you need to be. And when she is old enough, she will start correcting him herself, and that will probably be more effective than you doing it.
posted by 256 at 8:47 AM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am willing to speak out in favour of letting it go just because you don't gain anything by being angrier than you need to be. And when she is old enough, she will start correcting him herself, and that will probably be more effective than you doing it.
posted by 256 at 8:47 AM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wonder if "Who?" would work.
Dad: So how is (granddaughter's mispronounced name)?
You/Your Mom: Who?
Dad: (repeats wrong name)
You/your mom: Who is that?
Dad: Your (grand)daughter!
You/Your Mom: That's not her name. Her name is (correct name). Who are you talking about?
Repeat ad nauseum.
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:48 AM on December 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
Dad: So how is (granddaughter's mispronounced name)?
You/Your Mom: Who?
Dad: (repeats wrong name)
You/your mom: Who is that?
Dad: Your (grand)daughter!
You/Your Mom: That's not her name. Her name is (correct name). Who are you talking about?
Repeat ad nauseum.
posted by Hermione Granger at 8:48 AM on December 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
"You can learn to pronounce my husband and child's names or you can learn to live without seeing your grandchild."
I don't sugarcoat shit. Good luck. This is an incredibly tough situation, but if it has been 5 years and he is still unwilling to pronounce it correctly, then he won't unless you give him an ultimatum.
posted by terrapin at 9:06 AM on December 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
I don't sugarcoat shit. Good luck. This is an incredibly tough situation, but if it has been 5 years and he is still unwilling to pronounce it correctly, then he won't unless you give him an ultimatum.
posted by terrapin at 9:06 AM on December 10, 2018 [17 favorites]
I see many people on this post trying to come up with reasons beyond racism and power plays for this to be going on. And this is of course the lovely, generous, and appropriate thing to do amongst people of good faith, or with strangers whose intent you have little information about. But this extension of the benefit of the doubt has been exploited forever by people of bad faith, who know they can use it not only to get away with hurting you, but making you pretend they aren't doing so while they're doing it. This tactic needs to be shut down, always and everywhere. Everything OP has told us about the situation--that her dad does it consistently to people with a broad range of "foreign" names, even when corrected, that he complains about the "PC police"--tells us that this isn't some kindly, confused old gaffer with an auditory processing problem. It's someone openly being an asshole, to his tiny little granddaughter.
OP, your husband is a grown man and can decide for himself how he wants to respond re: his own name, but your daughter deserves to be protected from racism everywhere, perhaps most especially from close family members. I strongly concur with those who recommend--if you can stick to it--telling him that his access to his granddaughter is contingent on pronouncing her name correctly. And, because I'm the fightin' type and this behavior is truly obnoxious, I would probably, calmly, lead off with a statement that shows that I recognize his contemptible tactic for what it is. In a cold and matter-of-fact way: "That's pathetic, dad."
posted by praemunire at 9:12 AM on December 10, 2018 [40 favorites]
OP, your husband is a grown man and can decide for himself how he wants to respond re: his own name, but your daughter deserves to be protected from racism everywhere, perhaps most especially from close family members. I strongly concur with those who recommend--if you can stick to it--telling him that his access to his granddaughter is contingent on pronouncing her name correctly. And, because I'm the fightin' type and this behavior is truly obnoxious, I would probably, calmly, lead off with a statement that shows that I recognize his contemptible tactic for what it is. In a cold and matter-of-fact way: "That's pathetic, dad."
posted by praemunire at 9:12 AM on December 10, 2018 [40 favorites]
It is possible to be a racist towards the ethnic groups of even your close family members. My mom, now in her sixties, thought that the solution to her having a problem with Mexicans was that my brother and I should forever identify as white. This kind of "renaming" is, in my opinion, a sort of mental trick that people do in order to tell themselves that this kid is not actually foreign, because foreign = bad. This is especially true if, as in your example, the name's being mispronounced to be close to or identical to a common European name. My dad's family enthusiastically embraced this, in the 1950s, to fit in--and you know, to some degree, it worked. But it didn't stop the people around them from being racists, they were just racists who thought that one lady at church was the exception, the Good Mexican, as indicated by how she didn't want to be called some weird foreign name.
It's definitely possible to just have trouble "hearing" this kind of thing, or other problems like that, but the only way you have trouble with that with people's names and then get defensive about insisting on your own pronunciation or even your own separate names for people is if you're a racist. I don't have advice for how to fix this, but you at least need to acknowledge that it's a thing and that at some point you're going to have to talk to your kid about it.
posted by Sequence at 9:14 AM on December 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
It's definitely possible to just have trouble "hearing" this kind of thing, or other problems like that, but the only way you have trouble with that with people's names and then get defensive about insisting on your own pronunciation or even your own separate names for people is if you're a racist. I don't have advice for how to fix this, but you at least need to acknowledge that it's a thing and that at some point you're going to have to talk to your kid about it.
posted by Sequence at 9:14 AM on December 10, 2018 [6 favorites]
If he's defensive about his age like a lot of older men are, I'd start a big loud performance about how "maybe we should look into scheduling you for a doctor's appointment, Dad, I'm really worried about your memory, you've known [husband] for a decade and you STILL can't remember it's pronounced [name]? That's really concerning. Are you sure you're okay to still be driving?" "Now remember, Dad, we'll be there at noon tomorrow. Do you need to write that down? NOON tomorrow. Maybe I should tell Mom instead." (when he insists he'll remember) "I don't know Dad, I think you have memory problems, you still can't remember [granddaughter's name] is pronounced [name], so I'd feel better if Mom handled this."
And whenever you visit with your kid, sit her down in front of him and announce "Now remember, sweetie, Grandpa is OLD and he has a REALLY BAD MEMORY and he might say your name wrong EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW IT'S PRONOUNCED [NAME], but we have to be nice because he's SO OLD AND FORGETFUL, okay?"
posted by castlebravo at 9:56 AM on December 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
And whenever you visit with your kid, sit her down in front of him and announce "Now remember, sweetie, Grandpa is OLD and he has a REALLY BAD MEMORY and he might say your name wrong EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW IT'S PRONOUNCED [NAME], but we have to be nice because he's SO OLD AND FORGETFUL, okay?"
posted by castlebravo at 9:56 AM on December 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
Also, if this is an accented syllable thing and not a phoneme thing (hard to tell with the Annie/Ahni example), one trick to try with Grandpa and others who mis-stress your child's name is to clap out the syllables, or to only clap on the stressed syllables. It's a little like clapping out the iambs in Shakespearean verse: shall-I-com-PARE-thee-TO-a-SUM-mer's-DAY. Maybe the kinesthetic clap would help some people.
Bonus: this is something your kid can do herself when she's old enough, reinforcing to her that her name is important enough to get right; plus, clapping is fun!
posted by basalganglia at 9:57 AM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Bonus: this is something your kid can do herself when she's old enough, reinforcing to her that her name is important enough to get right; plus, clapping is fun!
posted by basalganglia at 9:57 AM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
"... Raj becomes Roger; Miguel becomes Mike, etc. I once heard a neighbor say, "Actually I prefer Andres," but my dad continues to call him Andy."
That detail right there is what shoved me FAR over the line of "is this racist?" God yes it is, and even if your dad has some kind of hearing problem or speech impediment, you noted that it's *only* people with "non-English" - read: "WASP" - names that he has the audacity to inflict this kind of aggression on. Your dad's known your husband for *OVER A DECADE*? Your dad's been *that* level of racist jackass to the person his daughter married for *that* long? And he's perpetuating that hurt on down to the next generation?!
My uber-WASP white American dad, just about the same age as your dad, learned to pronounce my Korean husband's five-letter, one-syllable-not-found-in-English name just fine. (He also learned how to pronounce my Fil-Am mom's and her parents' and sister's also-not-WASP names well before I came along.) Your dad can damn well stop doing this racist thing and learn how to pronounce your daughter's name, along with your husband's. This makes me so *angry* on your family's behalf. Your daughter may have her name mispronounced throughout her lifetime (my husband definitely gets that a lot), but she doesn't deserve to have one of those people be a *family member* who just couldn't be bothered.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:04 AM on December 10, 2018 [39 favorites]
That detail right there is what shoved me FAR over the line of "is this racist?" God yes it is, and even if your dad has some kind of hearing problem or speech impediment, you noted that it's *only* people with "non-English" - read: "WASP" - names that he has the audacity to inflict this kind of aggression on. Your dad's known your husband for *OVER A DECADE*? Your dad's been *that* level of racist jackass to the person his daughter married for *that* long? And he's perpetuating that hurt on down to the next generation?!
My uber-WASP white American dad, just about the same age as your dad, learned to pronounce my Korean husband's five-letter, one-syllable-not-found-in-English name just fine. (He also learned how to pronounce my Fil-Am mom's and her parents' and sister's also-not-WASP names well before I came along.) Your dad can damn well stop doing this racist thing and learn how to pronounce your daughter's name, along with your husband's. This makes me so *angry* on your family's behalf. Your daughter may have her name mispronounced throughout her lifetime (my husband definitely gets that a lot), but she doesn't deserve to have one of those people be a *family member* who just couldn't be bothered.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 10:04 AM on December 10, 2018 [39 favorites]
Uh yeah so I have a bunch of these auditory issues too — and it’s not just what I can hear, it’s auditory memory too, so I have trouble with syllables (even in english) — as do several of my family members, but our reaction to that is to, you know, try harder? Doesn’t usually work with people I meet once, especially if it’s in a place with any ambient noise at all (they just think I’m an asshole no matter how hard I try), but holy shit his son in law? His granddaughter?
You fucking work at it, even if it’s hard for you and brings up a life time of struggling with something that makes you feel inadequate or disconnected from humanity, because not being a racist or xenophobic dick to people is fucking important.
I just...
OP I feel like this must be tough to read, but I hope from this thread you’ve gathered that your dad might be worse than you think. I don’t know about the rest of your relationship with him, but I’d be somewhat surprised if this weird dominance bullying predicated on privilege is something that happens exclusively in one area. It’s just...such a shitty thing to do.
I wouldn’t sugar coat it either.
“My daughter will encounter racist or xenophobic bullying in her life but I am not going to teach her that it’s right by allowing her own family to do it. You will learn to pronounce my family’s names correctly or you won’t see your granddaughter.”
That might seem extreme, but like...honestly, if you allow this to continue, you are teaching your kid to expect and accept being bullied for being “other.” Like at a fundamental level. Don’t do this. It’s the foundation for lots of other terrible bullshit later on.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:06 AM on December 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
You fucking work at it, even if it’s hard for you and brings up a life time of struggling with something that makes you feel inadequate or disconnected from humanity, because not being a racist or xenophobic dick to people is fucking important.
I just...
OP I feel like this must be tough to read, but I hope from this thread you’ve gathered that your dad might be worse than you think. I don’t know about the rest of your relationship with him, but I’d be somewhat surprised if this weird dominance bullying predicated on privilege is something that happens exclusively in one area. It’s just...such a shitty thing to do.
I wouldn’t sugar coat it either.
“My daughter will encounter racist or xenophobic bullying in her life but I am not going to teach her that it’s right by allowing her own family to do it. You will learn to pronounce my family’s names correctly or you won’t see your granddaughter.”
That might seem extreme, but like...honestly, if you allow this to continue, you are teaching your kid to expect and accept being bullied for being “other.” Like at a fundamental level. Don’t do this. It’s the foundation for lots of other terrible bullshit later on.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:06 AM on December 10, 2018 [19 favorites]
Yeah I’m nthing that your dad is othering/being racist here. Especially with the renaming. Look, if people can correctly pronounce names of white guys like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Zach Galifianakis, they can learn to properly pronounce your baby and husband’s name too. Others had great suggestions with how to address this, but your dad should be corrected. You gotta stand up for your baby even if it’s to your 70 year old dad.
posted by buttonedup at 11:43 AM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by buttonedup at 11:43 AM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm close to your father's age and if I mispronounced my grandchildren's names I'd likely get a hella lot of shit. Your father is disrespectful of you, your partner, and your child, and he's just downright rude.
Have you tried writing to him about this? This will give him time to think about it instead of getting all defensive when you correct him in person.
My name is Mary and I spent much of my childhood among French people who refused to pronounce it the English way and called me Marie. I remember telling them that my name was much closer to the French word mairie (town hall), but they were rude.
posted by mareli at 12:29 PM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
Have you tried writing to him about this? This will give him time to think about it instead of getting all defensive when you correct him in person.
My name is Mary and I spent much of my childhood among French people who refused to pronounce it the English way and called me Marie. I remember telling them that my name was much closer to the French word mairie (town hall), but they were rude.
posted by mareli at 12:29 PM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
use his given name, mispronounced
YES! Genius.
Assuming you haven't switched from "Daddy" to "Jeremy," do that yesterday. He'll no doubt perk up and blanch, because 'til he gets used to it, it will cause the same CLANGWRONGSOUNDDAUGHTERWRONGOUCH instant annoyance reaction that he's causing in you.
Then if that doesn't fix it and he keeps it up, start calling him "juhRAYmer." Then if he still keeps it up, teach the child to call him one of the horrible derivations of "esteemed Grandfather." "Peepaw" or "Pap-pap" or "Grumps" or "Crampypappy." Or just "Jeremy" or "juhRaymer."
I have a similar problem with my mother, who is of an advanced age, and who has difficulty not spitting "Oriental" in my face randomly. In her I think it started out as just straightup racism iced with "I never had to think about this before; now it's the eighties and I suddenly do; fuck a lot of that." Then that got sprinkled with "daughter hates when I do it wrong and yells," and now she's got fear-of-fucking-up plus that Tourettes-ey thing that happens in the brain when you know there's a right way and a wrong way and you could pick the right way easily if you were alone but you're not, there's an audience, and so your brain serves you up the wrong way just to see what will happen. Because our brains are evil.
Your dad may not be ONLY racist. He may be in addition to racist, aware that he's got a little bit of an issue where it's hard to remember the right way under pressure. Of course his reaction to that problem should not be "blame the person whose name I get wrong and change their name to Mike!" But it's not, like, totally impossible to sympathize with the problem of evil brain. It's just the idiotic coping method your dad and my mother have chosen that cannot be sympathized with.
In the case that your father one day decides that he would like to change his obnoxious behavior, maybe there's a mnemonic you could teach him. I think I'll try this with my mom. Like: "Mom, just remember: A-OK and Oh, no. Like, A-OK-sian versus O-NO-riental!"
posted by Don Pepino at 12:38 PM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
YES! Genius.
Assuming you haven't switched from "Daddy" to "Jeremy," do that yesterday. He'll no doubt perk up and blanch, because 'til he gets used to it, it will cause the same CLANGWRONGSOUNDDAUGHTERWRONGOUCH instant annoyance reaction that he's causing in you.
Then if that doesn't fix it and he keeps it up, start calling him "juhRAYmer." Then if he still keeps it up, teach the child to call him one of the horrible derivations of "esteemed Grandfather." "Peepaw" or "Pap-pap" or "Grumps" or "Crampypappy." Or just "Jeremy" or "juhRaymer."
I have a similar problem with my mother, who is of an advanced age, and who has difficulty not spitting "Oriental" in my face randomly. In her I think it started out as just straightup racism iced with "I never had to think about this before; now it's the eighties and I suddenly do; fuck a lot of that." Then that got sprinkled with "daughter hates when I do it wrong and yells," and now she's got fear-of-fucking-up plus that Tourettes-ey thing that happens in the brain when you know there's a right way and a wrong way and you could pick the right way easily if you were alone but you're not, there's an audience, and so your brain serves you up the wrong way just to see what will happen. Because our brains are evil.
Your dad may not be ONLY racist. He may be in addition to racist, aware that he's got a little bit of an issue where it's hard to remember the right way under pressure. Of course his reaction to that problem should not be "blame the person whose name I get wrong and change their name to Mike!" But it's not, like, totally impossible to sympathize with the problem of evil brain. It's just the idiotic coping method your dad and my mother have chosen that cannot be sympathized with.
In the case that your father one day decides that he would like to change his obnoxious behavior, maybe there's a mnemonic you could teach him. I think I'll try this with my mom. Like: "Mom, just remember: A-OK and Oh, no. Like, A-OK-sian versus O-NO-riental!"
posted by Don Pepino at 12:38 PM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
90% of my grandfather's crankiness and obstinacy about things like this went away when he got a hearing aid. Didn't want to get one because they were for "old fogeys", and his inability to hear clearly what was happening around him led him to retreat into himself, cut short conversations, and blame others. It wasn't obvious to us at first that his hearing was at issue, we just saw a man who was always a bit of a provocateur turn into an unbearable a-hole. I think his reasoning was along the lines that if he drove people away with his general pain in the ass-ness, that was less threatening to him than contemplating his aging body. At ant rate, his GP finally convinced him to get a super state-of-the-art invisible hearing aid and my god, he is a different person. Completely reasonable and aware of social nuance in a way he hasn't been for 15 years.
posted by apparently at 1:57 PM on December 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by apparently at 1:57 PM on December 10, 2018 [9 favorites]
Can you imagine just how much English people mangle Nigerian names? Even people who are trying really really hard cannot do it properly. I have not heard a single English person including my mother, say my name correctly. Nowadays I just give acquaintances the version of my name I know they will arrive at by themselves naturally, it saves wasted time. If I'm friendly with the person and like them a lot, then I'll correct the pronunciation several times and in the end settle for the half-arsed effort they are genuinely trying very hard to make.
After all this time I am quite sure that there is a range of phonemes, tones, and patterns of emphasis in languages - probably all languages - that are very very difficult to hear, and then to reproduce, if you come from a different language background. And then again, I think the ability to hear these differences is very much affected by the age at which you are first exposed to them. (There have been experiments done with infants on this subject - babies reacted at a particular speech sound until they were a certain age, and past that age they could not hear the sound unless they had been familiar with it in the home environment.) So, what I would say is, Leave your dad alone, he's 70. Maybe he just can't do what you want here, the same way he probably can't run up steep hills.
Second point, if you are afraid your father will be racist to your own child, I think there are much more alarming ways for that to manifest than inability to pronounce names. Have you noticed any such alarming interactions? Then you would take action, no? I'm just a little surprised to see so many comments above assuming the absolute worst of this grandpa who none of us have met.
posted by glasseyes at 3:01 PM on December 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
After all this time I am quite sure that there is a range of phonemes, tones, and patterns of emphasis in languages - probably all languages - that are very very difficult to hear, and then to reproduce, if you come from a different language background. And then again, I think the ability to hear these differences is very much affected by the age at which you are first exposed to them. (There have been experiments done with infants on this subject - babies reacted at a particular speech sound until they were a certain age, and past that age they could not hear the sound unless they had been familiar with it in the home environment.) So, what I would say is, Leave your dad alone, he's 70. Maybe he just can't do what you want here, the same way he probably can't run up steep hills.
Second point, if you are afraid your father will be racist to your own child, I think there are much more alarming ways for that to manifest than inability to pronounce names. Have you noticed any such alarming interactions? Then you would take action, no? I'm just a little surprised to see so many comments above assuming the absolute worst of this grandpa who none of us have met.
posted by glasseyes at 3:01 PM on December 10, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm familiar with tonal languages and it's extremely hard for people not brought up in that context to cotton to em. I'm just wondering, can your child say their own name exactly as a native speaker would? There's all sorts of little differences in sound between languages, like pronouncing 't' with your tongue on the roof of your mouth as opposed to against the inside of your top front teeth. If you are not brought up to notice the difference it's hard to notice the difference. I guess I'm saying, in my experience even people who are doing their best are often doing it wrong. Personally, I end up feeling that insisting on perfect pronunciation of the unfamiliar can be unkind. And nobody finds this stuff easier with age.
posted by glasseyes at 3:19 PM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by glasseyes at 3:19 PM on December 10, 2018 [1 favorite]
You've made clear that this has nothing to do with your father's ability to say these names; from calling you PC Police to telling people what he's going to call them (like Roger instead of Raj), he's made clear that his own amusement is more important than the feelings of others around him. I'm only answering this because you asked what you should do, given your escalated anger, and my personal, random-lady-on-the-web, advice is that you should never allow someone who treats you and the people you love with unkindness. It's bad for you, and it's bad role modeling.
A big part of this is what kind of relationship do you have with your father outside of this situation. If you genuinely like your father and this is the only area upon which you disagree, then you could call your dad, say you need to see him about something important, and make a HUGE deal about this, like he'll be wondering if someone is sick or something otherwise horrible is going on. You see each other privately and you tell him that you love him, and that you love your spouse and your child, and you hope he's just doing this silly behavior as a hobby, to have fun, and he doesn't mean anything sinister or racist by it, but what he chooses to do will let you know which is more important to him, you as his daughter and your family, or his "right" to decide what other people should be called even if it hurts them. And tell him you know he can choose whichever he wants, but if you have to choose between protecting them and not, you will always choose protecting them.
Then say that as a good father, you believe that if someone tried to insult and belittle you, you think he'd defend you, like you're defending child. Tell him that if making fun of you for valuing people's identities is more important to him than treating your husband and child with respect, it will be his decision, but you won't allow your child to be raised in that way, and you will cut off contact, but you hope he will think about what's really important to him. If you think you can't get through this (either because you'll cry or he'll yell), you can write him a letter.
If you don't like your father all that much, you can follow the various tips above and just tell your mom that she's always welcome in your home or on neutral turf, but your family won't be interacting with your father in the future. Your child (all kids!) will have enough opportunity to deal with racism and rudeness of all stripes and there's no need for her to have to experience it within the family.
FWIW, I am super-earnest. The first time someone teases me, they get the big doe-eyed, "Are you making fun of me, Rizzo?" look. If someone does something racist in front of me, I let them know it's not acceptable. After that, I cut them out of my life. My grandmother was a racist (and the kind who would be shocked if anyone called her that), and I cut her out of my life when I was 17, and it hurt on occasion for about a year and then literally, it was like she never existed. She once tried to reconnect, but felt no remorse for her racism; my mom completely understood, and though she stayed in contact with her mother, she made sure her mother know she had lost her respect over that behavior.
You made a whole human being. It's great if you can love your parents as much as you love your child, but right now and forever from now on, your kid's mental health will be more important than your father's ego. And 70 isn't that old. 70 fifty years ago maybe, but I'm going to be 70 around the same time your baby graduates from high school, and I've known since I was five that it's important not to hurt someone's feelings for your personal entertainment; there's nothing in there that your father doesn't know. Good luck.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 3:27 PM on December 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
A big part of this is what kind of relationship do you have with your father outside of this situation. If you genuinely like your father and this is the only area upon which you disagree, then you could call your dad, say you need to see him about something important, and make a HUGE deal about this, like he'll be wondering if someone is sick or something otherwise horrible is going on. You see each other privately and you tell him that you love him, and that you love your spouse and your child, and you hope he's just doing this silly behavior as a hobby, to have fun, and he doesn't mean anything sinister or racist by it, but what he chooses to do will let you know which is more important to him, you as his daughter and your family, or his "right" to decide what other people should be called even if it hurts them. And tell him you know he can choose whichever he wants, but if you have to choose between protecting them and not, you will always choose protecting them.
Then say that as a good father, you believe that if someone tried to insult and belittle you, you think he'd defend you, like you're defending child. Tell him that if making fun of you for valuing people's identities is more important to him than treating your husband and child with respect, it will be his decision, but you won't allow your child to be raised in that way, and you will cut off contact, but you hope he will think about what's really important to him. If you think you can't get through this (either because you'll cry or he'll yell), you can write him a letter.
If you don't like your father all that much, you can follow the various tips above and just tell your mom that she's always welcome in your home or on neutral turf, but your family won't be interacting with your father in the future. Your child (all kids!) will have enough opportunity to deal with racism and rudeness of all stripes and there's no need for her to have to experience it within the family.
FWIW, I am super-earnest. The first time someone teases me, they get the big doe-eyed, "Are you making fun of me, Rizzo?" look. If someone does something racist in front of me, I let them know it's not acceptable. After that, I cut them out of my life. My grandmother was a racist (and the kind who would be shocked if anyone called her that), and I cut her out of my life when I was 17, and it hurt on occasion for about a year and then literally, it was like she never existed. She once tried to reconnect, but felt no remorse for her racism; my mom completely understood, and though she stayed in contact with her mother, she made sure her mother know she had lost her respect over that behavior.
You made a whole human being. It's great if you can love your parents as much as you love your child, but right now and forever from now on, your kid's mental health will be more important than your father's ego. And 70 isn't that old. 70 fifty years ago maybe, but I'm going to be 70 around the same time your baby graduates from high school, and I've known since I was five that it's important not to hurt someone's feelings for your personal entertainment; there's nothing in there that your father doesn't know. Good luck.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 3:27 PM on December 10, 2018 [7 favorites]
Another possible script to use, after/if you've established that this isn't some hearing or speech issue, to avoid the loaded accusation of racism that makes many, many white people turn defensive and double down, and which breaks it down to the core truth of what your dad is doing when he mispronounces your daughter and husband's names: "I want you to know that when you fail to pronounce my husband and child's names correctly, again and again, over the course of years, what you are telling me and them is that they are not part of your family. I don't know if that's what you mean, but that's what it seems like to us. Family members give each other the respect of pronouncing each other's names correctly. If you're unwilling to do this, then you're telling us we're not family, and you will not be seeing us anymore."
posted by yasaman at 4:09 PM on December 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 4:09 PM on December 10, 2018 [11 favorites]
It might help to reflect that during your father's lifetime, like mine, naming practices have changed. When I was a child in the 1950s, people with Eastern European names, for example, often shortened or adapted them to make it easier for English-speakers to pronounce. My mother worked with a woman called Mrs. Philips; I knew her son from school, and his name added a few syllables and ended with a consonant.
Correct his pronunciation, by all means, but do consider that he may not intend to offend you or your husband.
posted by SereneStorm at 5:54 PM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Correct his pronunciation, by all means, but do consider that he may not intend to offend you or your husband.
posted by SereneStorm at 5:54 PM on December 10, 2018 [2 favorites]
Your Dad is domineering you, showing that he considers you lesser, and now your family. Surely this has gone on all along and maybe you didn't recognize it for what it is. Maybe you thought going home with your husband and child would keep you safe, but no, you have to make a boundary, or he will hurt the next generation too.
You don't ask him, you tell him. Do this in the presence of your mom, but not in the presence of your child or husband.
posted by Oyéah at 6:04 PM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
You don't ask him, you tell him. Do this in the presence of your mom, but not in the presence of your child or husband.
posted by Oyéah at 6:04 PM on December 10, 2018 [3 favorites]
Kind of an orthogonal experiment but what would your dad do if you told him a non-English name but deliberately emphasized it wrong? If he also reverses it (and thereby arrives at the correct pronunciation, accidentally), then you know he's definitely doing it to piss you off.
posted by Xany at 8:18 PM on December 10, 2018
posted by Xany at 8:18 PM on December 10, 2018
I love the idea of it not being an issue of confrontation, but every time he mispronounces your daughter's name, you and yours just call him "Dud" until the end of the visit. Always with a smile. Explain the game to your daughter. His reaction is up to him. Your reaction is up to you.
posted by kestralwing at 9:34 PM on December 10, 2018
posted by kestralwing at 9:34 PM on December 10, 2018
Teach your child to mispronounce Grandpa's name. Grumpy sounds good! Or hey, have fun and invent your own. Childish? Sure. But it's not as bad as being a racist asshole, and don't fool yourself, that's what this is. When he can make the effort to pronounce her name correctly, you might consider teaching her to do the same. Maybe. Or maybe it will stick and this will be a lesson he gets to learn over and over for the next twenty years.
posted by Jubey at 11:12 PM on December 10, 2018
posted by Jubey at 11:12 PM on December 10, 2018
It sounds to me like your father thinks mispronunciation and re-naming is amusing.
No matter. I agree with many others here that you should give him a clear ultimatum.
posted by artdrectr at 11:12 PM on December 10, 2018
No matter. I agree with many others here that you should give him a clear ultimatum.
posted by artdrectr at 11:12 PM on December 10, 2018
Fwiw, my comment about letting up temporarily to allow for generalized bonding comes as a POC with a husband who has a very hard to pronounce name. Mine is only somewhat difficult (emphasis on wrong syllable in my books being a non issue). So to whatever degree you decide this is Unforgiveable Racism, we have experienced it too.
I was erring on the side of pragmatism and the realization that this is a long term war you're fighting, with the goal of still ending up on the SAME team at the end of it. Pick your battles and strategize wisely on how to win for the good of all relationships.
What if he starts pronouncing their names right but is forever hateful about how you addressed the problem so aggressively and directly? Your husband may be from a culture where he understands other techniques to relationship building and how letting others save face can allow for changes to be more easily swallowed. Ask him what he suggests. It's him you are trying to be sensitive to, in the short run anyway.
posted by cacao at 6:55 PM on December 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
I was erring on the side of pragmatism and the realization that this is a long term war you're fighting, with the goal of still ending up on the SAME team at the end of it. Pick your battles and strategize wisely on how to win for the good of all relationships.
What if he starts pronouncing their names right but is forever hateful about how you addressed the problem so aggressively and directly? Your husband may be from a culture where he understands other techniques to relationship building and how letting others save face can allow for changes to be more easily swallowed. Ask him what he suggests. It's him you are trying to be sensitive to, in the short run anyway.
posted by cacao at 6:55 PM on December 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
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I won't opine on whether to let it go, but will suggest letting go for a year, and encouraging them to get to know each other generally. Being contentious about this one issue constantly puts a thorn in their general bonding. Then come back to it.
posted by cacao at 6:31 AM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]