Psychopathic Child
September 22, 2018 8:47 PM Subscribe
There is a child, a boy, approximately 5 who enjoys hurting others, zero remorse, very violent behavior all around. I've seen him ram a toy into his mother's legs repeatedly from behind. She is oblivious, thinking the child will grow out of it. A phase. I've heard him say some disturbing things the other day when I visited.
No, am no expert or psychologist but someone with enough knowledge and instinct to know when something is way off. Harming others without remorse - is way, way off. I've never seen this child when he wasn't screaming, beating, ramming, throwing things or mouthing off. His mother and I are friends. The father buries himself in work - both at home and away. There are 2 other kids who are fine. Wondering if there are books on the subject - to educate parents on this very touchy subject - or to get down with it and real - alternately - an in your face reality check type of book. I know the mother will not listen to reason until reality presents itself. She tells me that in pre-school he gets along well with his peers and there are no problems. How common is that? I am not meddling, am trying to get informed so I can know what to do as a friend of the family. She does not want any type of intervention of any sort - apparently she's been there and done that. All I can do is offer some understanding and knowledge to her. Hoping for some insight from the hive mind.
No, am no expert or psychologist but someone with enough knowledge and instinct to know when something is way off. Harming others without remorse - is way, way off. I've never seen this child when he wasn't screaming, beating, ramming, throwing things or mouthing off. His mother and I are friends. The father buries himself in work - both at home and away. There are 2 other kids who are fine. Wondering if there are books on the subject - to educate parents on this very touchy subject - or to get down with it and real - alternately - an in your face reality check type of book. I know the mother will not listen to reason until reality presents itself. She tells me that in pre-school he gets along well with his peers and there are no problems. How common is that? I am not meddling, am trying to get informed so I can know what to do as a friend of the family. She does not want any type of intervention of any sort - apparently she's been there and done that. All I can do is offer some understanding and knowledge to her. Hoping for some insight from the hive mind.
Response by poster: The books are for me, to learn. As for friendship with this woman - I am totally willing to risk it - FireFountain. I have no agenda, other than preventing another statistic - person, animal or property destroyed. Indifference or pretending dysfunction does not exist is not in my lexicon.
posted by watercarrier at 9:06 PM on September 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by watercarrier at 9:06 PM on September 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
She is oblivious, thinking the child will grow out of it. A phase.
It sounds like you've already suggested there is a problem, and she is not in agreement. You've done all you can do. There are a lot of other charitable efforts you can make to "prevent other statistics" in the world - let this family handle their own affairs, and perhaps find some other way to indulge your desire to be helpful.
posted by Miko at 9:15 PM on September 22, 2018 [13 favorites]
It sounds like you've already suggested there is a problem, and she is not in agreement. You've done all you can do. There are a lot of other charitable efforts you can make to "prevent other statistics" in the world - let this family handle their own affairs, and perhaps find some other way to indulge your desire to be helpful.
posted by Miko at 9:15 PM on September 22, 2018 [13 favorites]
My thought is that if the kid is really doing OK at pre-school, then this is specific to the mother-child dynamic. The good news (if that is true) is that you are not dealing with the sort of incipent psychopath that you seem to be worried about. Still troubling but a different order of magnitude.
If the mother was looking for tools to manage her child, i could think of some suggestions but they are written for parents who are motivated to change their child's behavior, even if they don't know how. I don't know of any assessment type checklist for parents that say "Warning: if your child fails this checklist, he is in danger of becoming a psychopath."
posted by metahawk at 9:16 PM on September 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
If the mother was looking for tools to manage her child, i could think of some suggestions but they are written for parents who are motivated to change their child's behavior, even if they don't know how. I don't know of any assessment type checklist for parents that say "Warning: if your child fails this checklist, he is in danger of becoming a psychopath."
posted by metahawk at 9:16 PM on September 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
How common is that?
I have several friends with kids who are quite young who have behavioral problems at home but not at school, or at school but not at home. Some of them do present as things that disturb me a lot as an adult, but these are kids with even medication and therapists and sometimes this stuff just takes time to grow out of. The problem is that you're looking at his and you aren't seeing "behavioral problems", which the parents are clearly aware of. You're identifying the kid as a "psychopath", which is not a DSM or ICD diagnosis, and the closest applicable version in the DSM at least is not used for children. You're analyzing this as though the kid has a level of judgment and empathy that five-year-olds don't have. That doesn't mean this is usual behavior, but it means that the behavior itself isn't a signal of the stuff you're assuming.
And that's why you really are starting in this with an agenda, because you didn't start from "this kid has some kind of underlying issue", you started from "this kid is a psychopath". I don't have specific reading material suggestions for you, but I think in general you need to step back from this and have a think about your personal ideas about mental illness more broadly if your priority here is to protect anybody other than the child in question from the behavior of a five-year-old boy.
posted by Sequence at 9:23 PM on September 22, 2018 [91 favorites]
I have several friends with kids who are quite young who have behavioral problems at home but not at school, or at school but not at home. Some of them do present as things that disturb me a lot as an adult, but these are kids with even medication and therapists and sometimes this stuff just takes time to grow out of. The problem is that you're looking at his and you aren't seeing "behavioral problems", which the parents are clearly aware of. You're identifying the kid as a "psychopath", which is not a DSM or ICD diagnosis, and the closest applicable version in the DSM at least is not used for children. You're analyzing this as though the kid has a level of judgment and empathy that five-year-olds don't have. That doesn't mean this is usual behavior, but it means that the behavior itself isn't a signal of the stuff you're assuming.
And that's why you really are starting in this with an agenda, because you didn't start from "this kid has some kind of underlying issue", you started from "this kid is a psychopath". I don't have specific reading material suggestions for you, but I think in general you need to step back from this and have a think about your personal ideas about mental illness more broadly if your priority here is to protect anybody other than the child in question from the behavior of a five-year-old boy.
posted by Sequence at 9:23 PM on September 22, 2018 [91 favorites]
so the mother is oblivious and the father buries himself in work, and you think you are looking at a "psychopathic" child rather than neglectful parent(s)? you may be correct when you see a problem without being correct about what it is.
"psychopathic" applied to a 5 year old child is no more scientific or psychiatric a description than saying he's a little bastard or full of sin and devils. this is an emotional judgment -- which doesn't mean a wrong one -- and I personally think the best way to clarity is to use the most accurate emotional language available to you. violent, cruel, sadistic, whatever it is you think of him, use real words. don't go looking for psych terms that no legitimate psych person would apply.
whether he was born bad or is being made that way by factors invisible and unknown to you, he needs better parenting than what he's getting. focusing on what you think is wrong with this kid who, though he may be a little bastard or even a vicious danger to other living things, is barely removed from infancy, is a diversion to avoid focusing on what's wrong with the people in his life with power over him.
meaning, looking at what's wrong with your friends. not trying to figure what's wrong with this awful kid you detest: looking hard at what's wrong with your adult friends who made him and who have a duty of care to him. this is much harder and it may not help. but you have much more of a right and obligation to do it than to do the other.
you are not going to get positive results from telling his father he's negligent, but you're not going to get positive results from telling him his child's a monster, either. might as well try the former since it's the one he has power to change. approaching the mother alone, like she's the only parent or responsible party, will exacerbate the extremely bad family dynamics that you've already noticed. if she's your friend and the neglectful father isn't, don't make that a reason to treat this as exclusively or mostly her problem.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:35 PM on September 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
"psychopathic" applied to a 5 year old child is no more scientific or psychiatric a description than saying he's a little bastard or full of sin and devils. this is an emotional judgment -- which doesn't mean a wrong one -- and I personally think the best way to clarity is to use the most accurate emotional language available to you. violent, cruel, sadistic, whatever it is you think of him, use real words. don't go looking for psych terms that no legitimate psych person would apply.
whether he was born bad or is being made that way by factors invisible and unknown to you, he needs better parenting than what he's getting. focusing on what you think is wrong with this kid who, though he may be a little bastard or even a vicious danger to other living things, is barely removed from infancy, is a diversion to avoid focusing on what's wrong with the people in his life with power over him.
meaning, looking at what's wrong with your friends. not trying to figure what's wrong with this awful kid you detest: looking hard at what's wrong with your adult friends who made him and who have a duty of care to him. this is much harder and it may not help. but you have much more of a right and obligation to do it than to do the other.
you are not going to get positive results from telling his father he's negligent, but you're not going to get positive results from telling him his child's a monster, either. might as well try the former since it's the one he has power to change. approaching the mother alone, like she's the only parent or responsible party, will exacerbate the extremely bad family dynamics that you've already noticed. if she's your friend and the neglectful father isn't, don't make that a reason to treat this as exclusively or mostly her problem.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:35 PM on September 22, 2018 [14 favorites]
If you *have* to do something, i'd suggest you just start quietly and inconspicuously documenting everything you observe. If the kid grows out of it, great. If not, you'll have your time to shine when your notes get entered as evidence (time and datestamp everything). The main thing is that you'll feel like you're doing SOMETHING, and it's something that is not going to destroy your friendship with these people, who must have some redeeming qualities if you're willing to put in the time and effort to be their friends.
posted by some loser at 9:58 PM on September 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by some loser at 9:58 PM on September 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am not meddling...
... She does not want any type of intervention of any sort
You are. And you should stop it. You have no clinical expertise to be diagnosing this kid - who you've not even seen in school/daycare - the parents are fine with it, the siblings seem fine, the school seems fine. You seem to be the only one with a problem here.
I know the mother will not listen to reason until reality presents itself.
This is... super patronising towards her, and very assured that you are the one in touch with "reality". Whatever your opinion, it is not your place to do anything - and certainly not your place when all you're going in with is an armchair diagnosis, and a bad feel.
You're going to destroy a friendship, and it won't change anything. Honestly, check yourself. As a parent, if a 'family friend' tried this out on me, pissed would be an understatement.
posted by smoke at 10:01 PM on September 22, 2018 [47 favorites]
... She does not want any type of intervention of any sort
You are. And you should stop it. You have no clinical expertise to be diagnosing this kid - who you've not even seen in school/daycare - the parents are fine with it, the siblings seem fine, the school seems fine. You seem to be the only one with a problem here.
I know the mother will not listen to reason until reality presents itself.
This is... super patronising towards her, and very assured that you are the one in touch with "reality". Whatever your opinion, it is not your place to do anything - and certainly not your place when all you're going in with is an armchair diagnosis, and a bad feel.
You're going to destroy a friendship, and it won't change anything. Honestly, check yourself. As a parent, if a 'family friend' tried this out on me, pissed would be an understatement.
posted by smoke at 10:01 PM on September 22, 2018 [47 favorites]
You should leave this alone. You're not a professional or involved party.
posted by so fucking future at 10:11 PM on September 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by so fucking future at 10:11 PM on September 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
The dark cynical take would be that if Child is in fact a psychopath, the US provides publicly-funded career paths for such people offset with clinical professionals along the way to deal with that.
But I'm with Miko: you've done all you can do.
posted by holgate at 10:22 PM on September 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
But I'm with Miko: you've done all you can do.
posted by holgate at 10:22 PM on September 22, 2018 [1 favorite]
A recent article in The Atlantic: When Your Child Is a Psychopath
posted by ShooBoo at 10:34 PM on September 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ShooBoo at 10:34 PM on September 22, 2018 [3 favorites]
I am not meddling, am trying to get informed so I can know what to do as a friend of the family. She does not want any type of intervention of any sort - apparently she's been there and done that. All I can do is offer some understanding and knowledge to her.
If I were in your situation, as someone surprised and curious and concerned about her child's behavior, I would just ask her lots of questions to learn more about it. Like, what does she think causes her kid to act that way? What kinds of interventions was she referring to? How similar or different was her experience with her other kids? Maybe you will find out more about why she isn't as concerned as you.
Incidentally, it seems pretty cruel to use a really emotionally-laden, stigmatized word like "psychopathic" to describe a 5-year-old behaving rudely around you. I think it would really hurt him or his family if you said that to them.
posted by value of information at 10:37 PM on September 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
If I were in your situation, as someone surprised and curious and concerned about her child's behavior, I would just ask her lots of questions to learn more about it. Like, what does she think causes her kid to act that way? What kinds of interventions was she referring to? How similar or different was her experience with her other kids? Maybe you will find out more about why she isn't as concerned as you.
Incidentally, it seems pretty cruel to use a really emotionally-laden, stigmatized word like "psychopathic" to describe a 5-year-old behaving rudely around you. I think it would really hurt him or his family if you said that to them.
posted by value of information at 10:37 PM on September 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I, for one, applaud your willingness to educate yourself. At this young age, there are many alternate explanations for behavioral problems like those you describe. Holding it together in one environment, losing it in another can mean the child is overwhelmed or overstimulated, only has finite impulse control, doesn’t feel safe enough in one environment to “act out” and it takes a lot of energy and control to behave “well”, has trouble with transitions, or with other people around, can’t articulate well enough what they need, have trouble regulating their emotions, just to name a few. For reading, I recommend “The explosive child.”
posted by meijusa at 10:46 PM on September 22, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by meijusa at 10:46 PM on September 22, 2018 [8 favorites]
My child who has a related clinical diagnosis did not act that way in front of other people - I was seen as a paranoid parebt until I had physical evidence of injuries - and was able with therapy and medication to make enormous strides forward. My actually violent children were showing either behaviour they had seen and/or expressing overwhelmming emotions of grief and anger towards the only safe person they knew, mostly me. I am pretty sure I got judged when my child bit me and called me names in public, and when their bedrooms were stripped to just a mattress because they had destroyed everything else but they also clung to me sobbing desperately if I moved away when they bit me and only destroyed things I had made them to see if I would hit them. They are lovely loving people now (mostly).
You don't know what's going on. A five year old with an explosive temper can be a child who has been through a trauma that the family is helping him process at home. He may be showing the first signs of early childhood mental illness in which case the parents need support and listening, not judgement and amateur advice because they are heading into decades of a difficult journey.
Be her friend. The only people I spoke to honestly about my children's experiences were other parents with similar challenges and friends who did not judge or give advice. They just listened and encouraged me and were positive about my children, and I treasured them. They liked my children who I loved and I trusted them not to be horrified when I said something sad our bad had happened. Be that friend.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:57 PM on September 22, 2018 [50 favorites]
You don't know what's going on. A five year old with an explosive temper can be a child who has been through a trauma that the family is helping him process at home. He may be showing the first signs of early childhood mental illness in which case the parents need support and listening, not judgement and amateur advice because they are heading into decades of a difficult journey.
Be her friend. The only people I spoke to honestly about my children's experiences were other parents with similar challenges and friends who did not judge or give advice. They just listened and encouraged me and were positive about my children, and I treasured them. They liked my children who I loved and I trusted them not to be horrified when I said something sad our bad had happened. Be that friend.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:57 PM on September 22, 2018 [50 favorites]
Best answer: A 2012 article from The New York Times: Can You Call A 9-Year-Old A Psychopath?
posted by tiger tiger at 10:57 PM on September 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by tiger tiger at 10:57 PM on September 22, 2018 [5 favorites]
One explanation for your friend acting oblivious to her child’s violence toward her is that she might have gotten advice to ignore negative bids for attention as negative attention is also attention and therefore rewarding and reinforcing the violence. (I don’t subscribe to this, by the way, there are better ways such as a low arousal approach.)
posted by meijusa at 11:25 PM on September 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by meijusa at 11:25 PM on September 22, 2018 [11 favorites]
I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is much more helpful to investigate what difficulties are causing the behavior and what can be done about those than starting by ascribing some motivation or inferring character flaws. Implying that the child doesn’t care or the parents don’t care is not a good starting point. Or that asking about a child’s violent behavior in this way is out of an inappropriate desire to meddle, for that matter. While it’s possible these interpretations are true, it’s rather jumping to conclusions when there’s so much more to explore that could lead to beneficial changes in communication, routines, environment, support, etc.
Maybe the popular spoon theory is a good analogy; some kids have fewer spoons and some situations cost them more spoons than other children. When 5 year olds run out of spoons, they can’t just deal with that like an ideal adult in a good situation could.
posted by meijusa at 11:49 PM on September 22, 2018
Maybe the popular spoon theory is a good analogy; some kids have fewer spoons and some situations cost them more spoons than other children. When 5 year olds run out of spoons, they can’t just deal with that like an ideal adult in a good situation could.
posted by meijusa at 11:49 PM on September 22, 2018
Your friend doesn't want an intervention and here you are asking how to do an intervention.
While I want to pass along some helpful advice for the mom, I think the best advice anyone can give you here is to stop hanging out with this woman and her family, and stop trying to insert yourself into personal dynamics of which you know nothing under the guise of saving people, property or animals.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:26 AM on September 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
While I want to pass along some helpful advice for the mom, I think the best advice anyone can give you here is to stop hanging out with this woman and her family, and stop trying to insert yourself into personal dynamics of which you know nothing under the guise of saving people, property or animals.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:26 AM on September 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe it's your presence that sets him off? Some kids are really aware of people who don't like them/are disapproving of them, and struggle with dealing with it.
posted by threetwentytwo at 4:21 AM on September 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by threetwentytwo at 4:21 AM on September 23, 2018 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the replies everyone. Much obliged!
posted by watercarrier at 4:58 AM on September 23, 2018
posted by watercarrier at 4:58 AM on September 23, 2018
The books are for me, to learn.
That’s not what you said here:
Wondering if there are books on the subject - to educate parents on this very touchy subject - or to get down with it and real - alternately - an in your face reality check type of book.
BACK OFF. You are not the parent. Stay out of it. Take your judgment elsewhere and worry about yourself.
posted by amro at 5:01 AM on September 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
That’s not what you said here:
Wondering if there are books on the subject - to educate parents on this very touchy subject - or to get down with it and real - alternately - an in your face reality check type of book.
BACK OFF. You are not the parent. Stay out of it. Take your judgment elsewhere and worry about yourself.
posted by amro at 5:01 AM on September 23, 2018 [15 favorites]
You are coming off as super judgemental about something that is, even in my own extremely limited experience, merely at the obnoxious end of the normal spectrum of child behavior. It is actually super fucking normal for small children to harm others without remorse, little kids are incredibly self-centered beings and it takes time and training to develop the empathy that is required to be a fully functioning adult.
Absolutely do not buy a bunch of books about child psychopaths and then confront your friend with either said books or with your newfound pop-psych knowledge. You are not and will never be in a position to diagnose your friend's child. You are not and will never be in a position to "educate" the parents about how their kid is a monster.
Seriously, back off. Kids are obnoxious sometimes. Totally normal kids can absolutely behave like little monsters in certain contexts. This is one of three children that these parents have, I'm sure they're aware of this kid's behavior. You are judging the mother as "oblivious" when in fact she simply has drawn different conclusions than you about her own child's behavior. Please cut it out.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:23 AM on September 23, 2018 [20 favorites]
Absolutely do not buy a bunch of books about child psychopaths and then confront your friend with either said books or with your newfound pop-psych knowledge. You are not and will never be in a position to diagnose your friend's child. You are not and will never be in a position to "educate" the parents about how their kid is a monster.
Seriously, back off. Kids are obnoxious sometimes. Totally normal kids can absolutely behave like little monsters in certain contexts. This is one of three children that these parents have, I'm sure they're aware of this kid's behavior. You are judging the mother as "oblivious" when in fact she simply has drawn different conclusions than you about her own child's behavior. Please cut it out.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:23 AM on September 23, 2018 [20 favorites]
I think it best that you withdraw from this friendship.
posted by Carol Anne at 6:12 AM on September 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Carol Anne at 6:12 AM on September 23, 2018 [7 favorites]
I would actually be concerned for the other kids here - this kid may eventually be violent with his siblings, and if his mother is ignoring his behaviour, she may not believe her other kids are being hurt by him. Can you let the other kids know that they can talk to you if they need to?
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 3:31 PM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 3:31 PM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
i hear that you have only seen violent behavior from the kid, and i'll take that as "i have seen the kid violent in many contexts to many people." because if it's just the kid and mom, or the kid and siblings, at age five, that doesn't mean much.
if the kid is violent to other children, is there reason to think the parents of those kids are unaware?
if the kid is violent at the school, is there reason to think the teachers and staff are not on it?
is there anything that leads you to believe you are uniquely aware?
have the parents asked for advice?
if yes, then approach the parents with empathy, gently, and ask if there's any way you can help with the little hellion.
otherwise, in the absence of extreme behavior that you think is unreported, i would recommend that you presume awareness and competence.
posted by zippy at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
if the kid is violent to other children, is there reason to think the parents of those kids are unaware?
if the kid is violent at the school, is there reason to think the teachers and staff are not on it?
is there anything that leads you to believe you are uniquely aware?
have the parents asked for advice?
if yes, then approach the parents with empathy, gently, and ask if there's any way you can help with the little hellion.
otherwise, in the absence of extreme behavior that you think is unreported, i would recommend that you presume awareness and competence.
posted by zippy at 4:26 PM on September 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
Not a whole lot to add to what others have said above, which I mostly agree with.
The way we handle this with our (pretty dang good, *pats self on back*) pre-school aged kids when they interact with kids that are A) being harmful or hurtful with a dash of B) said kid's parent(s) not remedying said behavior is by removing our kid from the situation (if they haven't removed themselves already) and deciding if this kid-to-kid interaction is something that is sustainable going forward as a positive thing for our kids.
It would never cross my mind to suggest to another parent that they kid was out of control, need help, or could benefit from X or Y book without being really good friends and/or them having asked the same already.
Further I don't interject parenting advice or rules onto other folk's kids either unless it's happening on my watch/at our house or someone's health/safety is at risk. And in the latter case about the only thing I would consider saying to a kid that wasn't mine who was doing bad things would be something explaining to them why I stopped harm from coming to my kid in a given interaction. Then, as I said, I'd revert pretty damn quick to A and B logic above to see if this playdate was over, perhaps forever.
Ms[Dr]Eld and I have never had to do that but we've discussed it a time or two and, by the way, her PhD is in exactly the field that's relevant here and, again beating a dead horse time, she'd never interject her thoughts with someone who was anything other than A) a client seeking her professional skills/services or B) very close family that was somehow missing some obvious red flags or warning signs, in which case she'd likely simply advise them how to get services best and move on or something because ethics.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:07 AM on September 24, 2018
The way we handle this with our (pretty dang good, *pats self on back*) pre-school aged kids when they interact with kids that are A) being harmful or hurtful with a dash of B) said kid's parent(s) not remedying said behavior is by removing our kid from the situation (if they haven't removed themselves already) and deciding if this kid-to-kid interaction is something that is sustainable going forward as a positive thing for our kids.
It would never cross my mind to suggest to another parent that they kid was out of control, need help, or could benefit from X or Y book without being really good friends and/or them having asked the same already.
Further I don't interject parenting advice or rules onto other folk's kids either unless it's happening on my watch/at our house or someone's health/safety is at risk. And in the latter case about the only thing I would consider saying to a kid that wasn't mine who was doing bad things would be something explaining to them why I stopped harm from coming to my kid in a given interaction. Then, as I said, I'd revert pretty damn quick to A and B logic above to see if this playdate was over, perhaps forever.
Ms[Dr]Eld and I have never had to do that but we've discussed it a time or two and, by the way, her PhD is in exactly the field that's relevant here and, again beating a dead horse time, she'd never interject her thoughts with someone who was anything other than A) a client seeking her professional skills/services or B) very close family that was somehow missing some obvious red flags or warning signs, in which case she'd likely simply advise them how to get services best and move on or something because ethics.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:07 AM on September 24, 2018
I would refrain from attempting to educate the mother. That said, I’d also probably stop socializing with her with her child around.
posted by twin_A at 1:21 PM on September 24, 2018
posted by twin_A at 1:21 PM on September 24, 2018
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I know this sounds harsh, but you should be prepared for damaging your relationship with your friend if you push this.
posted by FireFountain at 9:03 PM on September 22, 2018 [35 favorites]