Can I ask my MIL if she has her sh** together?
December 27, 2017 6:09 AM Subscribe
The last time my MIL was here for a visit, we were all going to confront her about her continued “relationship” with Nigerian scammers. It didn’t really happen until the end of her visit. She seemed to hear that these folks were scammers, not her friends, and that she would never get her money back.
She has sent an unknown amount of money (maybe as much as $20k) to these scammers and maybe some electronic goods as well. She talks to them via text and a VOIP app on her phone. She was already having money troubles due in part to divorce and her shopping and hoarding addiction. She’s had diabetes for at least 15 years and struggles with an eating disorder. She is often untruthful.
However, she doesn’t really seem to have lost her marbles. If her kids weren’t freaking out about her financial situation and fears that they need to support her, we’d probably leave her to her devices. We discovered this week during her holiday visit that she’s still talking to these scammers. My husband hollered at her when he discovered this.
I’m not sure what to do here. She lives two plane flights away and so we aren’t privy to everything that goes on. She can be a boneheaded, stubborn and occasionally mean person to deal with. I’d like to figure out if she’s mentally competent but she seems competent enough that I might be able to ask her. Is that a bad idea?
She has sent an unknown amount of money (maybe as much as $20k) to these scammers and maybe some electronic goods as well. She talks to them via text and a VOIP app on her phone. She was already having money troubles due in part to divorce and her shopping and hoarding addiction. She’s had diabetes for at least 15 years and struggles with an eating disorder. She is often untruthful.
However, she doesn’t really seem to have lost her marbles. If her kids weren’t freaking out about her financial situation and fears that they need to support her, we’d probably leave her to her devices. We discovered this week during her holiday visit that she’s still talking to these scammers. My husband hollered at her when he discovered this.
I’m not sure what to do here. She lives two plane flights away and so we aren’t privy to everything that goes on. She can be a boneheaded, stubborn and occasionally mean person to deal with. I’d like to figure out if she’s mentally competent but she seems competent enough that I might be able to ask her. Is that a bad idea?
I’d like to figure out if she’s mentally competent but she seems competent enough that I might be able to ask her. Is that a bad idea?
I think it's a bad idea for two reasons:
1) It may not garner a helpful answer. She may appear mostly competent to you, but if she is deteriorating mentally, she may lie when asked and then work harder to hide her symptoms going forward. So you may end up with both a non-answer now and a harder time getting information down the line.
2) It is likely to sour your relationship with her, which will only exacerbate the problems in #1 above.
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I'll also just say that you seem incredibly frustrated with her, and it doesn't appear to be coming from a place of concern for her. One of your tags on this Ask is "jeez." You use nasty euphemisms for mentally incompetent ("doesn't have her shit together," "has lost her marbles") etc. Is your husband able to take on this difficult conversation in a caring, concerned tone? For example, less of this "Have you lost your marbles?" and more of "Hey Mom, we're getting worried about you because of the Nigerian scammers and #OtherReasons. Would you agree to see a doctor so we can make sure you're in ship shape?"
posted by schroedingersgirl at 6:32 AM on December 27, 2017 [23 favorites]
I think it's a bad idea for two reasons:
1) It may not garner a helpful answer. She may appear mostly competent to you, but if she is deteriorating mentally, she may lie when asked and then work harder to hide her symptoms going forward. So you may end up with both a non-answer now and a harder time getting information down the line.
2) It is likely to sour your relationship with her, which will only exacerbate the problems in #1 above.
---
I'll also just say that you seem incredibly frustrated with her, and it doesn't appear to be coming from a place of concern for her. One of your tags on this Ask is "jeez." You use nasty euphemisms for mentally incompetent ("doesn't have her shit together," "has lost her marbles") etc. Is your husband able to take on this difficult conversation in a caring, concerned tone? For example, less of this "Have you lost your marbles?" and more of "Hey Mom, we're getting worried about you because of the Nigerian scammers and #OtherReasons. Would you agree to see a doctor so we can make sure you're in ship shape?"
posted by schroedingersgirl at 6:32 AM on December 27, 2017 [23 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry, it’s probably a bit of dark humor. I think what I’m most frustrated with is how her relationship with her children and family is so incredibly twisted up. Every family interaction includes a lengthy post-visit download where my husband is stressed and my SIL is stressed and it stems from a family inability to communicate honestly and the mother’s manipulative acts. It’s my floating in someone else’s family dysfunction. I am actually quite compassionate about her situation but do find myself frustrated that any incremental progress seems to be undone almost immediately. And it’s stressful to watch the children flail.
I find her unreasonableness mystifying. But at this point, it feels like the conversation and tactic needs to change. Unfortunately, telling me to bow out isn’t helpful. I’ll stop threadsitting. The info from people who have dealt with dimentia is helpful.
posted by amanda at 6:45 AM on December 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
I find her unreasonableness mystifying. But at this point, it feels like the conversation and tactic needs to change. Unfortunately, telling me to bow out isn’t helpful. I’ll stop threadsitting. The info from people who have dealt with dimentia is helpful.
posted by amanda at 6:45 AM on December 27, 2017 [5 favorites]
Is there a family member near her who can sort out and accompany her on a doc visit to have her checked out? A lot of things can create problems with judgment, and many of those things are treatable.
posted by bunderful at 6:47 AM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by bunderful at 6:47 AM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Your mother-in-law is struggling with some pretty heavy mental illness (hoarding, shopping addiction, eating disorder) and health issues (diabetes) here. I would suggest that rather than hollering and trying to control her long-distance, you talk to her about getting support for those issues. It could well be dementia but honestly I think you have enough of a picture there to know that she has a hole in her spirit she is trying to fill all the wrong ways and the scammers are just one part of it. It could also be medical, so starting with a family doctor is a great idea.
I personally know how hard it is to get hoarders and mentally ill parents to get support, so I'm not optimistic, but...I think real, on-the-ground help is going to go a lot further than trying to get her to admit she's crazy. Do you have family in her area that can help?
The other piece is that you and your husband need to start having serious conversations about what kind of financial and other support you can provide, and what kind you can't. That may help you feel better about the chances that she will take your financial picture down and de-escalate the sibling anxiety. For example, you could agree that you will create a "fly out there fund" so that if she loses her housing, someone can go out for a month to sort it out, but you can also agree that her living with you or you paying her rent is NOT possible. That kind of thing.
Good luck with the tough situation.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:48 AM on December 27, 2017 [15 favorites]
I personally know how hard it is to get hoarders and mentally ill parents to get support, so I'm not optimistic, but...I think real, on-the-ground help is going to go a lot further than trying to get her to admit she's crazy. Do you have family in her area that can help?
The other piece is that you and your husband need to start having serious conversations about what kind of financial and other support you can provide, and what kind you can't. That may help you feel better about the chances that she will take your financial picture down and de-escalate the sibling anxiety. For example, you could agree that you will create a "fly out there fund" so that if she loses her housing, someone can go out for a month to sort it out, but you can also agree that her living with you or you paying her rent is NOT possible. That kind of thing.
Good luck with the tough situation.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:48 AM on December 27, 2017 [15 favorites]
Forgive me if I missed this-- does she live alone or does she have a partner? Not that the latter is necessarily preferable. With my dad, his wife added another layer to the confusion. But it's an important variable.
Do the siblings get together and discuss possibilities like power of attorney and someone to monitor her health? If they could all get on the same page, even partially, that would help a lot but for me, the idea that she has this continuing relationship with scammers would make this a slam dunk to get control of her finances, and probably her health too, in someone else's hands.
Your position as an in-law gives you less power in this situation, but it may enable you to play a uniquely helpful role. You may be able to communicate with family members with less baggage (or not) or provide another perspective or just support your spouse by consolidating your vote about whatever he has to decide with his siblings. So I would say, don't even risk squandering all that by even hinting you have an interest in outcomes.
posted by BibiRose at 7:16 AM on December 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do the siblings get together and discuss possibilities like power of attorney and someone to monitor her health? If they could all get on the same page, even partially, that would help a lot but for me, the idea that she has this continuing relationship with scammers would make this a slam dunk to get control of her finances, and probably her health too, in someone else's hands.
Your position as an in-law gives you less power in this situation, but it may enable you to play a uniquely helpful role. You may be able to communicate with family members with less baggage (or not) or provide another perspective or just support your spouse by consolidating your vote about whatever he has to decide with his siblings. So I would say, don't even risk squandering all that by even hinting you have an interest in outcomes.
posted by BibiRose at 7:16 AM on December 27, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If her kids weren’t freaking out about her financial situation and fears that they need to support her, we’d probably leave her to her devices.
That's your line in the sand, and it may be your husband's line in the sand too. You two need to consider the worst-case scenario and work out what you are willing to do - for how long, at what cost - should that scenario play out.
Aside from that it sounds like your husband and SIL don't have a great relationship with their mother, she isn't local, they aren't tuned into her day-to-day live, the issues flare up during visits, and they wouldn't have much influence on her anyway. She's an adult, as are her children. So choose your battles. Circling the wagons around your own family seems the most effective way to use your energy and resources.
posted by headnsouth at 7:18 AM on December 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
That's your line in the sand, and it may be your husband's line in the sand too. You two need to consider the worst-case scenario and work out what you are willing to do - for how long, at what cost - should that scenario play out.
Aside from that it sounds like your husband and SIL don't have a great relationship with their mother, she isn't local, they aren't tuned into her day-to-day live, the issues flare up during visits, and they wouldn't have much influence on her anyway. She's an adult, as are her children. So choose your battles. Circling the wagons around your own family seems the most effective way to use your energy and resources.
posted by headnsouth at 7:18 AM on December 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Best answer: You can ask her, but odds are good she'll say she's fine :/
Where I live, a capacity assessment has to be voluntary, barring a court order from a judge. So if (like many people) she's not up for being evaluated, that option might be a tough road to hoe (but perhaps necessary).
Something I've been told by multiple relevant authorities [in my area] is that "people have the right to make bad decisions". That includes giving scammers thousands of dollars, not paying bills, refusing to take necessary meds, etc. (You could show the police a paper trail documenting the fraud and it wouldn't matter - the fraudee would *have* to come in and declare, in an affidavit, "I was misled". As long as they're fine with being defrauded, you can't do a thing. Where I am, at least.) In this sort of situation, all you can do is wait for the person in question to get bad enough that they wouldn't pass the [fairly easy to pass] capacity screen. (Questions will likely include "what time/day is it", "draw a clock", this sort of thing.) "Bad enough" will probably entail a medical emergency (of some kind, probably something unrelated to mental health) leading to a doctor noticing what's up and asking the right questions.
Best is to contact an agency dealing with seniors in her area and get advice from them.
It is really tough to deal with this, I'm so sorry.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:42 AM on December 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
Where I live, a capacity assessment has to be voluntary, barring a court order from a judge. So if (like many people) she's not up for being evaluated, that option might be a tough road to hoe (but perhaps necessary).
Something I've been told by multiple relevant authorities [in my area] is that "people have the right to make bad decisions". That includes giving scammers thousands of dollars, not paying bills, refusing to take necessary meds, etc. (You could show the police a paper trail documenting the fraud and it wouldn't matter - the fraudee would *have* to come in and declare, in an affidavit, "I was misled". As long as they're fine with being defrauded, you can't do a thing. Where I am, at least.) In this sort of situation, all you can do is wait for the person in question to get bad enough that they wouldn't pass the [fairly easy to pass] capacity screen. (Questions will likely include "what time/day is it", "draw a clock", this sort of thing.) "Bad enough" will probably entail a medical emergency (of some kind, probably something unrelated to mental health) leading to a doctor noticing what's up and asking the right questions.
Best is to contact an agency dealing with seniors in her area and get advice from them.
It is really tough to deal with this, I'm so sorry.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:42 AM on December 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think that based on the title of this post that someone in the family who isn’t you should have this conversation with her.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:22 AM on December 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:22 AM on December 27, 2017 [4 favorites]
Best answer: My mother's life involves many of the same issues as your MIL. I know that this is a really hard situation. We have not dealt with scammers, as my mother is paranoid.
When I have wanted to indirectly deal with an issue of concern, I will bring up articles from the news. Hearing and talking about another person's experience has opened up communication between us. She may not acknowledge it right away,but learning about other scammers may make her think twice.
Expressing concern when talking with her, rather than judgement, is helpful too. This is really hard for me, I often need to call a friend and ask for a few minutes of free venting about my mom. It just helps to freely say all of the crud and rage that I am thinking and feeling.
posted by jennstra at 8:37 AM on December 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
When I have wanted to indirectly deal with an issue of concern, I will bring up articles from the news. Hearing and talking about another person's experience has opened up communication between us. She may not acknowledge it right away,but learning about other scammers may make her think twice.
Expressing concern when talking with her, rather than judgement, is helpful too. This is really hard for me, I often need to call a friend and ask for a few minutes of free venting about my mom. It just helps to freely say all of the crud and rage that I am thinking and feeling.
posted by jennstra at 8:37 AM on December 27, 2017 [7 favorites]
Just brainstorming here as someone who hasn't dealt with dementia, but could you (or her children, really) hire a second group of Nigerian scammers to impersonate the first group of Nigerian scammers, but deposit money received from her back into an account belonging to her?
posted by XMLicious at 8:38 AM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 8:38 AM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
She seemed to hear that these folks were scammers, not her friends
Are these the only "friends" she has?
sure she might have some variety of thought or personality disorder, but if this is the price a difficult person has to pay to have people talk to her and pretend to like her, maybe that's exactly what's she's doing and why. not deluded, pretending. you will have a very hard time talking her out of it unless you can offer her some viable substitute, because it's not exactly irrational, just extremely sad.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:05 AM on December 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
Are these the only "friends" she has?
sure she might have some variety of thought or personality disorder, but if this is the price a difficult person has to pay to have people talk to her and pretend to like her, maybe that's exactly what's she's doing and why. not deluded, pretending. you will have a very hard time talking her out of it unless you can offer her some viable substitute, because it's not exactly irrational, just extremely sad.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:05 AM on December 27, 2017 [10 favorites]
Your frustration seems to be coming from a place of trying to use logic and failing. The shopping/hoarding/scammers is not going to respond to logic, as these actions have nothing to do with logic. Yelling and reasoning are not going to do anything at all. Also, these behaviors of hers are all related. You need to see that first.
It might be a mental health issue, an aging brain (but these issues have been around for a while, yes?), or trying to get emotional needs met. You have to figure this out first, before you can have any success, then make an action plan coming from that place.
If you think she’s going to get into a very bad financial situation, though, I do think you should step in to get financial responsibility for her own protection.
posted by Vaike at 9:36 AM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
It might be a mental health issue, an aging brain (but these issues have been around for a while, yes?), or trying to get emotional needs met. You have to figure this out first, before you can have any success, then make an action plan coming from that place.
If you think she’s going to get into a very bad financial situation, though, I do think you should step in to get financial responsibility for her own protection.
posted by Vaike at 9:36 AM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think it might do you and your husband and SIL a favor if the three of you arranged to speak with a counselor with expertise in executive function/geriatrics/cognitive decline to start with, to get some education and coaching, because you don't seem to have much grasp even on the mechanisms of cognition. No, asking someone if they are competent is not useful data and will not make them cut it out, and you can't just tell someone with these kinds of problems to just try not having them anymore.
I get that her children are probably walking around with a lifetime of frog-boiling so they don't see her behavior as a symptom, just "how she is" and it sounds like they have some trauma to deal with (being raised by someone with unmanaged functional issues can be anything from a little chaotic to gruesomely abusive), but just being traumatized at each other and her isn't going to accomplish anything. They clearly need help even coming up with a beginning possible avenues of action, and you can't do all of it for them or without their buy-in so maybe focus your energy on getting them to the starting gate to get help to figure out a plan. This is eventually going to come home to roost, ignoring it is not going to make that eventual situation better when it comes, and they are likely not really benefiting from ignoring it anyway, because the anxiety remains.
This does not sound like a situation the family can manage without expert help. Focus on that.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2017 [11 favorites]
I get that her children are probably walking around with a lifetime of frog-boiling so they don't see her behavior as a symptom, just "how she is" and it sounds like they have some trauma to deal with (being raised by someone with unmanaged functional issues can be anything from a little chaotic to gruesomely abusive), but just being traumatized at each other and her isn't going to accomplish anything. They clearly need help even coming up with a beginning possible avenues of action, and you can't do all of it for them or without their buy-in so maybe focus your energy on getting them to the starting gate to get help to figure out a plan. This is eventually going to come home to roost, ignoring it is not going to make that eventual situation better when it comes, and they are likely not really benefiting from ignoring it anyway, because the anxiety remains.
This does not sound like a situation the family can manage without expert help. Focus on that.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:37 AM on December 27, 2017 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I contacted an elder care specialist when I was first dealing with my Mom's dementia. Her name is Kira Reginato, she can consult by phone or steer you toward someone nearer to you or your mom. This is her area of expertise. I have referred a number of friends to her and they all have reported feeling like they came out of the call with an action plan, some really good suggestions, reassurance, etc. I cannot recommend her enough.
posted by agatha_magatha at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by agatha_magatha at 11:39 AM on December 27, 2017 [12 favorites]
I deal with the elderly daily through work and I see families dealing with these types of issues all the time. It is incredibly frustrating and you are absolutely not a bad person to feel the way you feel! I think it would be most helpful to split your situation into these logistical pieces:
If [we] weren’t freaking out about her financial situation and fears that we need to support her, we’d probably leave her to her devices.
This is called "filial law". Most states do not have any filial laws on the books, which means the children cannot be made responsible for their parents' medical bills or senior care. In the states that do have these laws, they are typically not enforced. In other words, if this is your primary concern, you likely don't have much to worry about.
She has sent an unknown amount of money (maybe as much as $20k) to these scammers.
In line with federal "Know Your Customer" policies, banks may refuse to follow clients' transfer orders if they believe they are part of a scam. In my experience families have very good luck simply calling up their parent's banker and letting them know what's going on.
I’d like to figure out if she’s mentally competent but she seems competent enough that I might be able to ask her.
As others have suggested she probably has Dementia. People with Dementia can seem really together for a very long time and there is NO verbal test that can determine for sure. But that's not how competence is determined for older adults - it's really not based on how together someone is, but rather it is based on whether they are a danger to themselves or others. If the family is willing to put considerable time and effort into improving her situation - which it seems they are not but perhaps they are willing to help her by only dealing with 3rd parties such as social workers -, the best place to start is to call her county Adult Protective Services. They can educate you on what can or cannot be done, from both common sense and legal perspectives.
Good luck!
posted by rada at 9:30 PM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
If [we] weren’t freaking out about her financial situation and fears that we need to support her, we’d probably leave her to her devices.
This is called "filial law". Most states do not have any filial laws on the books, which means the children cannot be made responsible for their parents' medical bills or senior care. In the states that do have these laws, they are typically not enforced. In other words, if this is your primary concern, you likely don't have much to worry about.
She has sent an unknown amount of money (maybe as much as $20k) to these scammers.
In line with federal "Know Your Customer" policies, banks may refuse to follow clients' transfer orders if they believe they are part of a scam. In my experience families have very good luck simply calling up their parent's banker and letting them know what's going on.
I’d like to figure out if she’s mentally competent but she seems competent enough that I might be able to ask her.
As others have suggested she probably has Dementia. People with Dementia can seem really together for a very long time and there is NO verbal test that can determine for sure. But that's not how competence is determined for older adults - it's really not based on how together someone is, but rather it is based on whether they are a danger to themselves or others. If the family is willing to put considerable time and effort into improving her situation - which it seems they are not but perhaps they are willing to help her by only dealing with 3rd parties such as social workers -, the best place to start is to call her county Adult Protective Services. They can educate you on what can or cannot be done, from both common sense and legal perspectives.
Good luck!
posted by rada at 9:30 PM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
Back in those halcyon days when such scams were more on the domestic side, I had a few elderly family members who got taken for several thousand dollars before anyone noticed. A strategy that worked for one of them was for someone they trusted to work with them about putting their money in a trust, and having a separate bank account for their "personal experiences" that a sum of money was put into each month -- which they joyfully sent to scammers, but at least it was limited.
posted by yohko at 11:52 PM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by yohko at 11:52 PM on December 27, 2017 [2 favorites]
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