When is asbestos not asbestos?
October 23, 2017 12:01 PM Subscribe
I found the original box containing the leftover tiles used in the basement laundry room. It says "580 Kentile vinyl asbestos tile." A sample from the floor was taken by a professional asbestos removal guy. His results indicate that there is no asbestos in the tiles. How is this possible?
If he actually cut into the tiles and found none, it could been a faulty batch, or a location without any asbestos. It sounds like Kentile products may include as much as 25 percent asbestos, so I wouldn't bet on your other tiles being asbestos-free.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by filthy light thief at 12:19 PM on October 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
Are you sure they're the same tiles? Could the tiles have already been replaced at some point in the past? (I mean maybe it's very obvious that they are, but if it's, like, beige or gray vinyl tile, it might all look very similar.)
Alternately, yeah, the asbestos guy might have been testing for environmental asbestos rather than cutting into the intact tile. If the test was fairly recent or you have some documentation it's worth asking him to clarify.
posted by mskyle at 1:12 PM on October 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Alternately, yeah, the asbestos guy might have been testing for environmental asbestos rather than cutting into the intact tile. If the test was fairly recent or you have some documentation it's worth asking him to clarify.
posted by mskyle at 1:12 PM on October 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Yes, he actually cut a sample from the floor. The tiles are loose enough that it is easy to pull up and cut a sample. He did not do an environmental test. He sent the piece of floor tile to a lab that used polarized light microscopy to check for fibers. It appears to be the same tile in the box and on the floor -- the stuff in the box is just a bit cleaner! It's one of those styles that has little dashes of colors on a beige background and I don't think it could be such a close match if it is not the same. I don't own the house.
So, same tile as in the labelled box and an actual sample of tile was tested. ???????
posted by SandiBeech at 1:35 PM on October 23, 2017
So, same tile as in the labelled box and an actual sample of tile was tested. ???????
posted by SandiBeech at 1:35 PM on October 23, 2017
This is an interesting puzzle! I have a family member who works in commercial flooring and, after a quick search, seeing the images of the different tile patterns and the boxes they came in brought back a lot of memories.
An actual asbestos expert is going to have to weigh in, but is it possible the test was for asbestos fibers and the tile contains asbestos powder? As far as risk goes, floor tile is pretty low, although the cost to have it legally removed is still high. Encapsulation by flooring over it is the easiest option if you want to refloor that part of the house. Just don't do what they used to do years ago and sand the surface of the tile to get adhesive to adhere more easily. That would be bad.
posted by mikeh at 2:12 PM on October 23, 2017
An actual asbestos expert is going to have to weigh in, but is it possible the test was for asbestos fibers and the tile contains asbestos powder? As far as risk goes, floor tile is pretty low, although the cost to have it legally removed is still high. Encapsulation by flooring over it is the easiest option if you want to refloor that part of the house. Just don't do what they used to do years ago and sand the surface of the tile to get adhesive to adhere more easily. That would be bad.
posted by mikeh at 2:12 PM on October 23, 2017
There are different kinds of asbestos. It's possible that the floor tile used a kind that isn't detected via the particular test that was run on the sample. E.g. the test might only look for chrysotile asbestos, and the flooring might contain brown asbestos. (Unlikely, because I think Kentile was made in the US and brown asbestos came mostly from South Africa and was used in higher-end products in the US, but hypothetically.)
Also some tests only look at the surface, they don't grind up the sample to look at what's inside it—what matters (at least, to most people) is whether it's releasing asbestos dust into the local environment, not what's encapsulated inside it. I don't know if that's what they did, but you could ask the lab that did the test or read the test results (which you presumably received; if not you should get them, in writing and in original form).
From context, it sounds like you are doing this as part of a pre-sale disclosure, because you're selling the property? I think what you should do is word the disclosure carefully. I wouldn't say "house does not contain asbestos", I would say something like "Flooring tested by XYZ lab using MNOP process." And I wouldn't make any claims (and caution your agent not to make any claims) except what is verbatim from the test results.
I wouldn't sign my name to something that says "the house doesn't contain asbestos" if you know from the label on the package that it has an asbestos floor, which seems to be the case (I mean, it literally says "asbestos" on the box). But that floor could be perfectly fine as long as it's not messed with, in terms of presenting an actual hazard. How you have to disclose that in the listing or as part of a potential sale might vary.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:14 PM on October 23, 2017
Also some tests only look at the surface, they don't grind up the sample to look at what's inside it—what matters (at least, to most people) is whether it's releasing asbestos dust into the local environment, not what's encapsulated inside it. I don't know if that's what they did, but you could ask the lab that did the test or read the test results (which you presumably received; if not you should get them, in writing and in original form).
From context, it sounds like you are doing this as part of a pre-sale disclosure, because you're selling the property? I think what you should do is word the disclosure carefully. I wouldn't say "house does not contain asbestos", I would say something like "Flooring tested by XYZ lab using MNOP process." And I wouldn't make any claims (and caution your agent not to make any claims) except what is verbatim from the test results.
I wouldn't sign my name to something that says "the house doesn't contain asbestos" if you know from the label on the package that it has an asbestos floor, which seems to be the case (I mean, it literally says "asbestos" on the box). But that floor could be perfectly fine as long as it's not messed with, in terms of presenting an actual hazard. How you have to disclose that in the listing or as part of a potential sale might vary.
posted by Kadin2048 at 3:14 PM on October 23, 2017
(Fun fact: lots of popcorn ceilings contain asbestos!)
posted by space_lab at 10:43 PM on October 23, 2017
posted by space_lab at 10:43 PM on October 23, 2017
I have them in my basement (my house was built in 1923). When we bought the house 14 years ago, our home inspector told me that there would only be a problem if we tried to pull them up and they broke because the asbestos is sealed within the tiles. Dust and debris from any demolition would be contaminated and need to be abated properly. His advice was to just go over the tiles if we planned to renovate or change the flooring at any point. Ours are pretty firmly attached and aren't going anywhere. If you want to get rid of that box, I suggest you call an asbestos abatement company and find out how to get rid of them.
posted by dancinglamb at 12:54 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by dancinglamb at 12:54 AM on October 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Could it possibly be that that particular tile (maybe a later design?) is 'vinyl asbestos' tile in the same way as 'vinyl aluminum' siding is vinyl replacing the other ingredient?
posted by sexyrobot at 8:27 AM on October 24, 2017
posted by sexyrobot at 8:27 AM on October 24, 2017
This website is extremely ugly but pretty reliable, and in it's obsessiveness not only has a Kentile page, but a section on possibly asbestos-free Kentile. They also take questions and would be interested in photos of your tiles and boxes.
posted by sepviva at 6:47 PM on October 24, 2017
posted by sepviva at 6:47 PM on October 24, 2017
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Unfortunately, if you sell your house, you probably have to disclose there is asbestos on the premesis. Most homeowners get away with "I have no idea" and check "no, I don't know of any asbestos on the property". You have the unfortunate knowledge now.
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:13 PM on October 23, 2017 [1 favorite]