Wonky tiling took my smiling :(
April 21, 2017 12:21 PM   Subscribe

Despite due diligence, our first real hire-a-pro remodel project is going off the rails. Can you help us figure out how to salvage this bathroom tile issue and make it look decent?

Our 1941 house needed shower tiling, so we hired a reputable (long-established, good showroom, good Angie's List recs) local flooring/tile place for some plain old white subway tile with black accents.

Before we signed the contract, I asked the sales guy why his estimate included Subway Tile A instead of Subway Tile B (same size/company). He said, "This line offers the accent tile you want in a matching 6" size; the others don't." Fair enough.

So the installers put up the tile, and... actually, the white tile was 1/8" longer than each black tile, and they didn't make allowances for this with grout or anything, so each tile was a smidge misaligned and the difference got worse as it went down the line. Here is what I imagined it would look like. Here and here are what it did look like.

I went back and VERY POLITELY told the sales guy that we were not satisfied with the install. Yes, ceramic tile has, uh, shrinkage, but we bought this tile BECAUSE it was supposedly a matched set. But he told us – only at this point, after we'd installed 2.5 full walls – that they came from different manufacturers, despite being sold as a matched set from the same supplier.

Yada yada the solution we came up with was to redo the tile between the black accents and reset it so they would line up with the white tile above and below, so the seam with the black tile wouldn't look so obvious. Annnnnd that resulted in this. It breaks up the running pattern of the subway tile, and to me it almost looks MORE wrong than the first install.

I've left out a ton of details involving the sales guy not exactly providing design guidance or even a proper visualization of how something would look, as well as my alternate feelings of
a) I am a bad person for being picky and
b) YOU SOLD ME SOMETHING BASED ON THE FACT THAT IT IS A MATCHED SET, ERGO I SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET A G.D. MATCHED SET; WHY IS THIS SO G.D. WRONG, ESPECIALLY WHEN I AM PAYING YOU LIKE $2000?????????? (We had a very rough month, tile notwithstanding; I managed to keep my mouth shut.)

We were also planning to spend another $2-3k next year to continue the job around the rest of the bathroom, which they knew and planned for. This design issue will affect how that looks, too.

At this point, I'm so peeved that I just want to tell them "thanks; I'll pay you the rest of what we owe you, but don't even do the grout" and get some independent guy to fix it. I was ready to measure every damn white tile they had and line them up with the black tiles my damn self. But the white tile really is 1/8" longer, and you can't really grind the edges down because it'll look raw. We looked and looked for some alternate pattern of tile (mosaic?) to substitute that wouldn't make a difference, seam-wise, but no dice.

Also, the cement board already started pulling away when they removed it, for the fix, and I don't know how we would waterproof and RE-repair that.

Also, also, they are not particularly communicative, and I have no idea when they're going to show up next.

So what do I do now? Please skip the part where I post a nastygram on Yelp/Angie's List; right now I want my bathroom usable more than I need to unleash the fury of a consumer scorned. Because this bathroom has not had a working shower since SEPTEMBER.

Thanks.
posted by St. Hubbins to Home & Garden (17 answers total)
 
Document thoroughly. Escalate to the owner of the business, in writing. If that fails, chargeback? Small claims? I think small claims!

If the board has pulled away from the wall (I actually noticed the tiles were not flush in the last pic and suspected as much BEFORE I read your askme) then you are correct that they need to pull all the tile and start from scratch. It will eventually crack and leak.

Get written estimates on exactly what will repair the job and go from there with the owner of the business. You want outside written opinions on what is wrong, and what will fix it.

Do not communicate anything you would not want a judge to see. Thay's all I can think of.
posted by jbenben at 12:37 PM on April 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


Also, I think at this point you might be due "loss of use" damages if you can prove through professional assessments that sealing the tile would be wrong/lead to leaks since the backer board pulled away from the wall... YMMV, maybe consult an attorney?
posted by jbenben at 12:39 PM on April 21, 2017


I'm so sorry. It's really tough to get a good tile install, and I don't think you got what you asked for.

I don't see what jbenben does w/r/t the tile pulling away from the wall, but I'm looking on mobile. If it looks loose in any way at all, it should all be torn out. They also shouldn't be using cement board unless a liquid barrier like RedGard has been applied over it, or a specialty board like DensShield was used, or there's already a vapor barrier BEHIND the backerboard. Ask about how it was done, whether you leave this in place or get it redone.

I actually don't mind the look of the redone work, but if you don't like it and it's not to your original specifications, then you shouldn't have to live with it.

If it gets redone, measure the tile pieces before they start installing, to see if the stuff'll actually match up end to end.

For references to solid installers, and advice, I will always refer to the John Bridge forums.
posted by rachaelfaith at 1:11 PM on April 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


The redone work looks much worse because they changed the white tile just below the accent. That makes it look super weird.

I don't know about the rest of the info with the backing board, but I would definitely put that row of white tiles back where it was and maybe split the difference on the larger accent seams.

Sorry, this stuff is SO frustrating.
posted by vunder at 1:27 PM on April 21, 2017 [1 favorite]


To clarify: In the second accent row here, you can see what I mean by splitting the difference on the seams.

So, on yours, the larger accent seams would fall between the seams for each offset row of subway tiles (but the white subway tiles would keep a consistent brick pattern all the way up). I think once that is correct, it won't bother you so much.

I really think the tile setter is at fault here: they should have caught this problem immediately and called to confirm what you wanted to do. And then they should have helped figure out a better solution on the redo.
posted by vunder at 1:38 PM on April 21, 2017 [3 favorites]


That looks terrible and needs to be properly repaired (that includes new cement tile backer and waterproofing membrane). Your contract should clearly specifiy how tile needs to be installed, and the repair was obviously not done by the book.

Also, did they install a different tile from what is specified in your contract documents? Manufacturer and model should be listed on there.
posted by halogen at 2:02 PM on April 21, 2017


Me and my partner draw the line with this sort of stuff at: is this a structural issue or an aesthetic issue?

- If it's aesthetic, we live with it. Environmentalism, not letting perfect be the enemy of the good, etc.

- If it's going to cause trouble for the integrity of the house, we figure out how to do something about it.
posted by aniola at 2:05 PM on April 21, 2017 [2 favorites]


You're right that it looks worse than before. Also, this guilt that you have about being picky is misplaced. In tiling, that's one of a few things you really do have to get right; you have to line up the tiles. And actually, the solution seems fairly easy -- just use wider grout lines on the shorter trim. (It would be least noticeable if you used a darker grout.)

Waterproofing. I'm confused by your description, and I don't know what kind of waterproofing you are using, but if the backerboard is pulling away from the wall, then they did not put in enough screws or use the right kind. You can get the documentation for the backerboard by googling. E.g., half-inch hardieboard needs their special screws 8" apart. (I thought it was closer together than that for some reason.) Can you clarify the waterproofing strategy? Waterproofing is a far more serious issue than alignment of trim, so this really influences how I'd proceed. I would read about whether they can remove and reapply tile with the system (or post back here). With some systems, like kerdi, you can manage to remove and reapply a few tiles, especially if the grout hadn't fully set yet.

Okay, now to the question of dispute resolution. For starters, I'd review your contract. But there are three main approaches to dispute resolution: pay to make them go away, not pay and risk dealing with a lien or lawsuit, or get them to redo it. If you can confirm for yourself that they're handling the waterproofing right, then I'd actually see if you can get them to redo it one last time, with a good diagram. I say that in part because aside from the issue of the trim, the tiling looks pretty good from what I can see in the picture. Also, it will be faster. And with a new company, you're rolling the dice all over again as to their strengths and weaknesses.

In general, builders are tough negotiators and good talkers, so be prepared. If you think there's a chance that the miscommunication was half your fault, then I'd be prepared to eventually offer to cover the cost of materials, especially as they redid it once already. (If you go with someone else, you'll have to pay both time and materials again.) I'm sorry; I know how infuriating and stressful this is.
posted by slidell at 10:31 PM on April 21, 2017


Response by poster: Re: cement board etc, we had fresh cement board laid (which was one reason we went with a company that would do all-in-one installation), and they did indeed roll on a waterproofer. It was something green. They may have even put in some sort of membrane underneath.

When I'm talking about it pulling away, I mean that the tile is mortared on such that some of the cardboard or whatever comes off when you pull the tile off. I suppose you could just slop a bunch of mortar on again or something, but the surface that was waterproofed is probably gone at that point.

What should I do, design-wise? I am NOT going to get the whole thing redone; I just want to fix the detail. I've been trying to find something vaguely era-appropriate that could fit in a three-inch width. Would it look weird if I used a white/gray veined marble of some sort?

Re: dispute resolution, our contract (the "Ceramic Tile Installation Guide") is a little iffy. It says "I understand that I must be present when the installers arrive to review the job, confirm style, color, seam placement, and pay my COD. [Company] is not responsible for any claims due to color or style once the floor is installed."

So my husband was there on Day 1 and discussed things like the height of the detail... and then the guy installed it super high, because he went ABOVE that height instead of BELOW it. I grit my teeth and said that was fine, even though it would mean more tile -> more cost when we went around the room.

But seam placement? Nobody talked to us about seam placement, as far as I know, because we had no reason to believe that it would be offset. They started in the middle and placed the first tile so that it lined up just fine, at which point I suppose my husband left (if he hadn't already).

Aside from nitpicking their lack of design sense, I don't want to nitpick. I just want to move forward.
posted by St. Hubbins at 12:08 AM on April 22, 2017


Contractors messing up an important job is so nerve wracking and stressful, I feel your pain. Literally. I'm going something similar right now with some ancient parquet floors that I hired a supposedly reputable company to repair and refinish. I had them stop any further work until I could figure out what to do and then eventually just fired them from the job. It's gonna cost me much more now than had the job been done correctly from the start.

That being said, I actually like how the design feature looks now. It looks like it was done that way on purpose, as if you decided to frame the black feature tiles with rows of white tiles and it's a totally acceptable design decision. This doesn't address the structural issues brought up in other comments, obviously.

PS, I love the way you did your bathroom. I hope you don't mind if I save the pic of it to use as reference for a small bathroom I'm having redone, fits perfectly the with the era of my house.

Good luck, and try not to stress it too much, it will, eventually, be figured out somehow.
posted by newpotato at 4:48 AM on April 22, 2017


Yeah, if the backerboard was pulling away, that probably did mess up the roll-on waterproofing. It's high enough up the wall that I don't know how much splash you'll get, but ...

Design-wise, couldn't they just pull out the trim and the center row of white subway tiles, offset the subway tiles to restore the running pattern, and then spread out the trim using an extra 1/8" of grout to get the look you originally wanted? Then again, the new design is kinda growing on me.
posted by slidell at 8:15 AM on April 22, 2017


I think you have a great idea with changing the center tiles into something different. But I don't think white/gray marble is the right choice. In design, if you want something different you have to make sure it's different enough that it looks intentional, rather than haphazard. Here's a quick photoshop of some marble in the center. It just looks out of place. I would fill the space with more skinny black tiles, or if you're feeling up to it, even some black penny tiles.
posted by FirstMateKate at 12:53 PM on April 22, 2017 [1 favorite]


Looking back at it now, yeah, the 'redo' version makes it look more wonky, like the whole center stripe with all the 'aligned' subway tiles is a giant accent stripe.

If you wanted to fill in the center, for one, I would recommend against white ceramic/porcelain. Matching whites is usually difficult and dye lot differences look really obvious.

Some ideas that may work for you:

White glass
Black squares
Marble mosaic (small squares or staggered, not full size subway)
Penny-round tile, as suggested above, might work also

Sorry if these aren't up your alley; tile construction and technical specs are my thing, design not as much.

If the waterproofing was rolled on and green it was most likely Laticrete Hydroban (light green before curing, olive after) which is good stuff. I'm not sure about exactly what needs to be done to re-waterproof that section if you redo it (possibly tear out tile, re-roll on or paint on Hydroban if the CBU is still viable, allow to cure, then thinset mortar over it, and tile?) Laticrete has a good CS team; they should be able to tell you how it needs to be redone for it to be solidly waterproof. There's another green barrier product I found but didn't know much about, called Green Seel. You can probably tell from photos of each, which was used, and thus who to call.

I hope it works out!
posted by rachaelfaith at 7:37 AM on April 24, 2017 [1 favorite]


I think you're right and that it looks worse after the "fix." I would also be concerned about waterproofing under the "fixed" section, but I'm not an expert on that.

What about getting some 6 inch accent tiles rather than 3? For example, 1 and 2. Have you measured the white subway tile to confirm it is actually exactly 3 inches long? What brand is the white tiles?

One other idea: looking more closely, it looks like maybe they treated the accent tiles as if they didn't require spacers (just like subway tiles, which have little bumps that automatically space the tiles for the worker)? Especially when it comes to the thin flat tiles.

I would take all of my complaints directly to the owner of the company. I would include a pictures of the work including the design you desired. A picture makes miscommunication about how it should look impossible. (I hope you showed that picture to the salesperson?) It sounds like the salesguy made one wrong turn and then the bad decisions snowballed from there. The guy who laid the tile was doing the best he could with the tile provided, but they shouldn't have ordered or recommended incompatible tile in the first place.

Also have you seen the boxes the tile came in? Just wondering if maybe they actually ordered the wrong thing and are trying to cover that up rather than eat the cost of a misorder.
posted by purple_bird at 11:07 AM on April 24, 2017


Response by poster: They did order the correct tile, and they did seem to have used Green Seel.

Yesterday was very up and down. Installer called at 7:30 and said he was planning to come over at 9 (got there around 10:45...), which led to me having a meltdown about how I have failed our family with this major expenditure. (Please. You knew this wasn't actually about tile.)

When the guy saw the little tape labels I put on the border tiles trying to see if they would line up, my husband told him I was trying to figure out the spacing myself. Installer guy was actually pretty calm about it. So they didn't do it after all, and he said if we wanted to pull more than the one tile line out, we could - i.e. not being limited to something that fit between the two black lines.

We contacted a friend-of-a-friend with design experience, who basically said, "field tile and rails absolutely never match," and I replied, "Something that would have been nice to know ahead of time."

So if you have any suggestions for some sort of classic Art Deco or 1940s motif that fits a 3" width, let me know.
posted by St. Hubbins at 8:02 AM on April 25, 2017


which led to me having a meltdown about how I have failed our family with this major expenditure

What you're going through is, to me, sadly a very normal construction experience. (I remodeled a triplex.) Until you get a good subcontractor for a given trade, even when you're working with a pretty good sub, it's still amazing what screw ups occur. (I had to plead with the French drain installer to just humor me by putting the drain lower than the finished floor it was protecting as the drain documentation noted was necessary. That's the equivalent of having to explain that water flows downhill. This guy was licensed, bonded, had good references...) We've run into so many problems that our mantra is "two steps forward, one step back." If the project got done 70% correctly and they're sticking around to fix the remaining 30%, you're doing just fine. If all you did professionally was remodel houses, then sure, maybe no mistakes would occur, but this is par for the course as a homeowner.
posted by slidell at 9:39 PM on April 25, 2017


Your friend is mostly right about field tile and trims not matching. This is due to the fact that tile can be sourced from many different manufacturers, and even if from the same manufacturer, tile is made in 'lots' and different items (trim vs field) are not glazed from the same glaze batch.

However, some notes:

1. You have a better chance of them matching/being close enough in color if they come from the same manufacturer, and the same tile collection/series. You should be able to get this info by calling the company that distributes the tile.

2. You can have tile custom-made and glazed from places like Fireclay Tile, and they will use the same glaze color/batch for all of your tile.

Options for classic motifs: check out Greek Key designs (very traditional) or other border types.
posted by rachaelfaith at 6:19 AM on April 27, 2017


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