Puppy to Dog Aggression - 7m old attacking 2y old
April 3, 2017 8:17 PM Subscribe
Two days ago, puppy attacked dog. Aggressive growls from puppy, biting, lunging, and lots of noise. I safely got them apart with a lot of screaming on my part. I start searching for reasons - was there food, was my 12 year old human too close to one, was the cat around? Nothing. I figured I just missed something, and they worked it out. Yesterday evening it happened again.
No food, no humans close by, cat was upstairs, and toys all around but not where the dogs were. I separate them for the remainder of the evening. This morning, the 12 year old human forgets and lets puppy out. She walks up to dog and gives her tons of mouth licks - submissive behavior. So, I let them be together, and watch them like a hawk. They play, they eat breakfast (although I put puppy in a kennel just in case for feeding time), they go outside, they go for a car ride, they play some more, nap next to one another, eat dinner (again using the kennel), and play a little more. Boom!
12 year old human is upstairs with cat. There is no food anywhere; human or dog. They were in the dining room, which had been cleaned after our dinner - so no toys to get possessive over. I was on the couch, and saw it happen. One second, Holly is fine and the next she goes crazy. Phi doesn't back down, so from a behavior viewpoint the puppy (probably) should back off.
Background info: The puppy is a Bernese/Pyranees mix. The "older" dog is a black lab mutt. Both are female. Dog is spayed, but puppy isn't yet. Puppy is taller than dog, and outweighs her but not by much. We've had puppy since the end of October. I chose her because she would easily go "belly up" and exhibited submissive puppy behaviors.
I've raised a lot of dogs. Puppy is my 14th puppy because I rarely have only one (like potato chips). I am absolutely alpha. Neither of them ever questions me. I do a lot of alpha behavior when they are little - taking food, etc. We also do socialization like crazy, and no problems. (Puppy isn't going anywhere near anyone else until this is fixed.) I've never seen this nor heard of anything like it.
In my experience, dogs either:
No food, no humans close by, cat was upstairs, and toys all around but not where the dogs were. I separate them for the remainder of the evening. This morning, the 12 year old human forgets and lets puppy out. She walks up to dog and gives her tons of mouth licks - submissive behavior. So, I let them be together, and watch them like a hawk. They play, they eat breakfast (although I put puppy in a kennel just in case for feeding time), they go outside, they go for a car ride, they play some more, nap next to one another, eat dinner (again using the kennel), and play a little more. Boom!
12 year old human is upstairs with cat. There is no food anywhere; human or dog. They were in the dining room, which had been cleaned after our dinner - so no toys to get possessive over. I was on the couch, and saw it happen. One second, Holly is fine and the next she goes crazy. Phi doesn't back down, so from a behavior viewpoint the puppy (probably) should back off.
Background info: The puppy is a Bernese/Pyranees mix. The "older" dog is a black lab mutt. Both are female. Dog is spayed, but puppy isn't yet. Puppy is taller than dog, and outweighs her but not by much. We've had puppy since the end of October. I chose her because she would easily go "belly up" and exhibited submissive puppy behaviors.
I've raised a lot of dogs. Puppy is my 14th puppy because I rarely have only one (like potato chips). I am absolutely alpha. Neither of them ever questions me. I do a lot of alpha behavior when they are little - taking food, etc. We also do socialization like crazy, and no problems. (Puppy isn't going anywhere near anyone else until this is fixed.) I've never seen this nor heard of anything like it.
In my experience, dogs either:
- like each other
- hate each other
- or work out hierarchy quickly
This seems really frustrating. Is it possible it's time for the puppy to get spayed because she's coming into adolescence and is getting hormonal? Maybe it's time to check with the vet.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:00 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 3:00 AM on April 4, 2017
Response by poster: @Sassyfras: That article deals directly with a much older dog who would be giving up status in a pack. These two are only 18 months apart, and the "older" dog has a clean bill of health. But thank you!
@Yes: I like to wait until they have their first heat, but she might prove to be the exception. I'll be calling the vet today once they open.
I forgot the obligatory pictures.
posted by TauLepton at 5:37 AM on April 4, 2017
@Yes: I like to wait until they have their first heat, but she might prove to be the exception. I'll be calling the vet today once they open.
I forgot the obligatory pictures.
posted by TauLepton at 5:37 AM on April 4, 2017
7 months old is very young for a gaint breed to come into heat. My guess would be there might be pain happening internally. Bladder infection, stones, stool firmness..any of those would give random twinges of pain. Dogs don't process internal very well, so they read that pain as being attacked from outside.
If there's another animal nearby, the sick one may lash out at the "aggressor".
Keep an eye out for bathroom habit changes. It may be time foe a vet check.
(Experience level: dog walker/boarder/owner)
posted by whowearsthepants at 7:00 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
If there's another animal nearby, the sick one may lash out at the "aggressor".
Keep an eye out for bathroom habit changes. It may be time foe a vet check.
(Experience level: dog walker/boarder/owner)
posted by whowearsthepants at 7:00 AM on April 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
(Sorry! I missed the age of the older dog in your title)
posted by Sassyfras at 8:16 AM on April 4, 2017
posted by Sassyfras at 8:16 AM on April 4, 2017
I have a Pyrenees/Golden mix and 7-8 months of age were my peak "brat" period with him. Sitting on other dog, stealing other dog's favorite toys, being fussy about kennel time, generally trying to establish himself as 'alpha." The strong hand of correction and redirection steered us through. Practice using your stern, strong 'no'" and heading off behavior before it happens/redirecting into another activity. Pyrs are very, very stubborn and quite like to have their own way. Just think of this period as 'teething time-part two," you know, that period where you had to watch them like a hawk to make sure they weren't eating your couch/dishtowel/socks. Same thing, except with bratty dominance behavior.
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 9:41 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 9:41 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Screaming at fighting dogs increases their arousal and makes things worse- maybe research some trainer tips on de-escalating dog aggression.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:01 AM on April 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by pseudostrabismus at 10:01 AM on April 4, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm so sorry you're going through this and I know how stressful it can be. I'm not a behaviorist by any means, but I have more experience with dog aggression than I would like. And I just had a discussion with a behaviorist last week about aggression between female dogs.
First, I agree that spaying the puppy is a good idea. The hormonal changes around heat can create aggression with other female dogs.
We had a giant breed puppy years ago who was fine playing with her older lab mix sister until she was big enough and coordinated enough to hold her own. Once she felt like she was no longer outmatched, the fights started. Initially they were triggered by certain things (displaced aggression, excitement, etc.) and the first two were over 6 months apart. Over the next couple years we worked with a behaviorist to identify and avoid triggers, but it didn't matter. Eventually they didn't even need a trigger to start fighting and had to be separated permanently.
It could be a million things. The puppy could be getting over-excited. She could feel threatened by something the other dog does during play. It could be hormonal or related to stress from another event that happened beforehand that you didn't even know about. It’s common for the younger female to be the one who instigates the fights, even when the second female is still young and healthy.
For breaking up the fights, pseudostrabismus is right that screaming can increase arousal. I get it - that’s always my automatic reaction as well. Try inserting something (not you) between them, like a baby gate.
I would recommend a full workup at the vet to rule out any possible health issues with the puppy, get her spayed ASAP and then seek help from a behaviorist (not just a trainer) if this behavior continues. In the meantime you may need to keep them separated or muzzled. Make sure you are documenting everything that happens around these incidents, because if you see a behaviorist they will use your descriptions of the dog interactions to make much of their diagnosis.
I know this part doesn't help for your current situation, but in the future I recommend getting opposite sex dogs. Our behaviorist (and several other experts I've read) talk about how female to female aggression tends to be the worst and most viscous. It also has the lowest level of success when trying to correct the situation. Obviously all dogs are different, so there are no guarantees.
posted by thejanna at 10:46 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
First, I agree that spaying the puppy is a good idea. The hormonal changes around heat can create aggression with other female dogs.
We had a giant breed puppy years ago who was fine playing with her older lab mix sister until she was big enough and coordinated enough to hold her own. Once she felt like she was no longer outmatched, the fights started. Initially they were triggered by certain things (displaced aggression, excitement, etc.) and the first two were over 6 months apart. Over the next couple years we worked with a behaviorist to identify and avoid triggers, but it didn't matter. Eventually they didn't even need a trigger to start fighting and had to be separated permanently.
It could be a million things. The puppy could be getting over-excited. She could feel threatened by something the other dog does during play. It could be hormonal or related to stress from another event that happened beforehand that you didn't even know about. It’s common for the younger female to be the one who instigates the fights, even when the second female is still young and healthy.
For breaking up the fights, pseudostrabismus is right that screaming can increase arousal. I get it - that’s always my automatic reaction as well. Try inserting something (not you) between them, like a baby gate.
I would recommend a full workup at the vet to rule out any possible health issues with the puppy, get her spayed ASAP and then seek help from a behaviorist (not just a trainer) if this behavior continues. In the meantime you may need to keep them separated or muzzled. Make sure you are documenting everything that happens around these incidents, because if you see a behaviorist they will use your descriptions of the dog interactions to make much of their diagnosis.
I know this part doesn't help for your current situation, but in the future I recommend getting opposite sex dogs. Our behaviorist (and several other experts I've read) talk about how female to female aggression tends to be the worst and most viscous. It also has the lowest level of success when trying to correct the situation. Obviously all dogs are different, so there are no guarantees.
posted by thejanna at 10:46 AM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
I am absolutely alpha. Neither of them ever questions me.
This method of training dogs has been absolutely debunked and is likely to have negative consequences.
The solution to dog on dog agression is good training - It’s worth the money for a good trainer, if you have a truly dog-aggressive dog - because then you avoid accidents, and vet bills, and rabies quarantines, and maybe the heartbreak of having to put down your dog because the unthinkable happened.
posted by Lanark at 1:29 PM on April 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
This method of training dogs has been absolutely debunked and is likely to have negative consequences.
The solution to dog on dog agression is good training - It’s worth the money for a good trainer, if you have a truly dog-aggressive dog - because then you avoid accidents, and vet bills, and rabies quarantines, and maybe the heartbreak of having to put down your dog because the unthinkable happened.
posted by Lanark at 1:29 PM on April 4, 2017 [5 favorites]
Female Pyrs are rarely dog safe around other female dogs or any dog other than their bonded male, if they have one. I think you should join some Pry forums and get a bit more background on the breed. My friend has one that is a working livestock dog but is actually very good and dog safe with her other dogs and she still never lets them be alone together unsupervised. Just in case. Most farmers or ranchers I know that have them keep the herding dogs far away from the livestock dogs for good reason. I know a couple others that are pretty good on neutral ground but still, not a good breed to have around another female in a house.
Most people who have multiple female dogs like this end up living in some ridiculous situation where the dogs always have to be separated and it's a huge hassle and one dog is living in fear all the time so anything you can do to avoid that I'd do.
posted by fshgrl at 9:49 PM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Most people who have multiple female dogs like this end up living in some ridiculous situation where the dogs always have to be separated and it's a huge hassle and one dog is living in fear all the time so anything you can do to avoid that I'd do.
posted by fshgrl at 9:49 PM on April 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: My own research showed that yelling doesn't help - as several of you pointed out. The next time it happened, I "wheelbarrowed" her. That worked beautifully.
As for the multiple females, I really don't believe that to be true. We've had up to four females together in the home through the past 25 years, and I've not seen this. Granted that's a small sample size, but I would think it would have shown up at least moderately at some point.
@lanark - Oh, it's not how I train them. I use positive reinforcement, high value treats in stressful situations, etc. I appreciate the article! My intent was that they listen to my commands, don't argue with me about food, don't exhibit dominance behaviors towards me or the other humans.
@fshgrl - The puppy is 3/8 Pyr, and I'll look more into what you've stated.
In closing, I think the answer is that this can happen. She may grow out of it or not. However, as with all dogs, training is essential and socialization cannot be overemphasized. Thanks to everyone who took the time to help.
posted by TauLepton at 4:16 PM on May 4, 2017
As for the multiple females, I really don't believe that to be true. We've had up to four females together in the home through the past 25 years, and I've not seen this. Granted that's a small sample size, but I would think it would have shown up at least moderately at some point.
@lanark - Oh, it's not how I train them. I use positive reinforcement, high value treats in stressful situations, etc. I appreciate the article! My intent was that they listen to my commands, don't argue with me about food, don't exhibit dominance behaviors towards me or the other humans.
@fshgrl - The puppy is 3/8 Pyr, and I'll look more into what you've stated.
In closing, I think the answer is that this can happen. She may grow out of it or not. However, as with all dogs, training is essential and socialization cannot be overemphasized. Thanks to everyone who took the time to help.
posted by TauLepton at 4:16 PM on May 4, 2017
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posted by Sassyfras at 10:32 PM on April 3, 2017