Psychedelics and the self

December 4, 2016 4:19 PM

I have a hypothetical question about the use of psychadelics and the sense of self: is it possible to take a psychedelic drug and perceive how others "see you"?

...Because ultimately the experience and understanding would be coming from you, right?

I'm reading Sam Harris' Waking Up (not finished yet) and he proposes that there could be a part of the mind perceiving what we do but somehow separate.

Do or can psychedelic drugs give you an "objective" perspective of the self?

And - if you've had such an experience, if you'd be willing to share it, I'd be fascinated to hear.

Thanks!

posted by Dressed to Kill to Religion & Philosophy (10 answers total)

I think that psychedelics, in a way that's similar to some spiritual paths, tend to dissolve the idea of the self rather than to provide an objective view of it. Although perhaps, when something is an illusion, dissolving it and seeing it objectively are the same thing. ?? A very interesting question.
posted by crazylegs at 4:33 PM on December 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

You're more likely to experience this through meditation. There comes a point where you can watch your thoughts roll along and even recognize some thoughts as illogical. After that, you can sometimes catch yourself using the same kind of illogical thinking you've recognized before and stop yourself from acting on it. I don't see how psychedelics would help in any way with this experience, though psychedelics sometimes do help people make deep insights about themselves and the world.
posted by xammerboy at 4:35 PM on December 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Best answer: What would an objective perspective of a person look like? It seems to me that "eye of the beholder" is a major factor here, e.g., I might find you an interesting, insightful person and someone else may not see these traits at all.
posted by she's not there at 4:45 PM on December 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seconding what people are saying. The only thing I can add is that, while there are great insights to be found psychedelics, those insights aren't usually expressed through any kind of objective knowledge. Certainly one might (also might not!) feel a great deal of empathy, which would naturally lead to a strong imagination of how others see you, which would be a very powerful and life-changing experience indeed, but ultimately that is still going to be rooted in your own perception and mind and just as limited as it would be if you were sober.
posted by Stilling Still Dreaming at 4:49 PM on December 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Certainly one might (also might not!) feel a great deal of empathy, which would naturally lead to a strong imagination of how others see you, which would be a very powerful and life-changing experience indeed, but ultimately that is still going to be rooted in your own perception and mind and just as limited as it would be if you were sober.

I think this can certainly in the moment feel like an objective perspective of the self, but, as noted, it's totally not.
posted by juv3nal at 4:51 PM on December 4, 2016

How others see you is to some extent a function of their culture and their relationship to you. What we call "objective" is itself a cultural construct. Psychedelics will (hopefully) help you get outside any culture, or equivalently recognize that there is no outside, just different perspectives. I say hopefully, because I don't think Sam Harris has achieved that.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:11 PM on December 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

"...and even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until in our despair, against our own will, comes wisdom, through the awful grace of god."

Self-awareness takes a long time, lots of reflection and reality-checking of 'salient' information, and courage - no short cuts, no slacking off.
posted by mmiddle at 6:49 PM on December 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

But is that actually true, mmiddle? I can't tell if you're saying that from a scientific perspective or a moral perspective. I haven't ever done hallucinogenics (I'm more of a meditation kind of person myself), but I was under the impression that that was one of the main selling points (and also main risk factors) for ayahuasca pilgrimages and so on. That is to say, the very abrupt context shift under the influence of hallucinogens supposedly leading to self awareness. And in some cases immediate relief of depression as a result of that perspective shift.

Yes, presumably subjective reports, but how else would you do it?
posted by instamatic at 7:55 PM on December 4, 2016

Best answer: Of course you can't literally get outside the limits of the information in your own head, but it is certainly possible to alter your cognition via psychedelics, and to use that altered state to observe yourself differently and thereby notice patterns in your thinking which you might otherwise overlook. For many people this is the primary reason they take psychedelics.

LSD is of course the traditional tool for this sort of thing. From the recent PNAS article Neural correlates of the LSD experience revealed by multimodal imaging:

It seems increasingly evident that psychedelics reduce the stability and integrity of well-established brain networks (e.g., ref. 16) and simultaneously reduce the degree of separateness or segregation between them

And from the abstract:

decreased connectivity between the parahippocampus and retrosplenial cortex (RSC) correlated strongly with ratings of “ego-dissolution” and “altered meaning,” implying the importance of this particular circuit for the maintenance of “self” or “ego” and its processing of “meaning.”

Subjectively, LSD experiences vary widely, but it is common to have a sense that ordinary things are more interesting or meaningful than they would normally be, that they are less closely bound to their usual meanings, and that creative new associations erupt easily (even distractingly). If you turn this magnifying glass on yourself, you can therefore notice all kinds of patterns and details in your habits of thought which you might ordinarily take for granted, and then feel novel inspirations about how you might interpret them. This might lead to nothing more than entertaining goofiness, or it might prompt you toward some profound realization which leads you to make significant changes in your life.

Ketamine provides another avenue for self-observation, which is quite different from the experience of LSD. K is weird stuff, typically very confusing and disorienting when you're new to it , but once you have enough experience to get the hang of the trip, you can start rolling with the weirdness instead of being taken aback by it. Ketamine can then become a tool for entering a clear, calm, detached state of mind, in which the ego is just one process among many. The story you tell yourself about who you are and why you are doing the things you are doing becomes separate from the actual processes giving rise to those actions and perceptions, and you can more easily distinguish between yourself as a whole and your self as the part of you representing the voice which is busy telling that story.

I have a friend who calls ketamine "powdered objectivity" for this reason. It isn't really objectivity, of course, but it can be a good step in that direction. Chemically dissociating through ketamine effectively bootstraps your mind into a meditative state where it is possible to get some real work done. You can observe what is going on calmly, without feeling a need to react, and you can observe contradictory thoughts arising in your brain at once without having to identify yourself with one or the other. This can make it easier to dig around in the roots of things which would otherwise be difficult to think about due to strong ego attachments or powerful emotional responses. You can look at yourself and consider whether you want to continue or discontinue various patterns of choices you are making without feeling a lot of judgement about it. Of course the drug wears off and then it's up to your sober mind to continue on with those choices - but having calm detachment effectively at one's fingertips makes it a hell of a lot easier to work out where those choices are and how you might want to approach them differently.

"a part of the mind perceiving what we do but somehow separate" sounds a lot like the way things appear on the inside of a K trip - except that it's *all* the parts of the mind that are separate, and there are lots of them, and none of them is individually "you" because "you" are an illusion, a phenomenon which emerges from all of these components going on with their jobs at once.

Unlike other psychedelics, you do have to be careful with ketamine as it can be habit-forming. There's no physical dependency, but when you have calmness effectively on demand, it can become easier to just push that button than to actually deal with things. So, you know, it's a special occasion thing and not something to take every day.
posted by crotchety old git at 8:11 PM on December 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

From an anonymous Mefite:

I have some experience. Psychedelics can assist in understanding yourself, and your place in the universe, and other things. This is a valid use. But they are dangerous, and at least a little unpredictable. Your approach to them determines if they're very dangerous and very unpredictable, or merely significantly dangerous and not very unpredictable. Lots of dangerous things are worth doing! Lots of people make very good decisions that certain worthwhile things exceed the risk they are willing to undertake. Please do all of your homework before embarking.

The specific thing you ask about, though, is not something that I have ever or would ever expect to experience from psychedelics, though. While under the influence, perceptions are most certainly distorted, not made clear and true and objective.

Perhaps you will gain some small measure of elevated clarity and perspective in the days following certain psychedelics. Perhaps. Small.

This is not the way to the thing you are seeking, at least not the specific thing in this particular post.

I have had some very interesting (and very fun) sensations, such as a very strong and convincing experience of solipsism (I understood and saw that I was the only living being, experiencing every possible existence, in turn, throughout time. Currently I was on 'me', obviously, but in time, or in the past, which of course was also the present, I was also all other humans, and indeed also all other things that can be.) I have also been privileged to experience the awareness after my death, whereupon I reflected (and was questioned) about my existence, whether it had been justified, and whether it was right for it to have ended just now.

Of course, I didn't die. I wasn't even in distress. And I am not the only being that exists... I, personally, am certain that all of that is just a sort of chemical illusion played upon whatever my consciousness actually is. No substance to it. No metaphysics. Just physics, and biochemistry.

I can't deny that it is often fun, and also often useful. But I cannot just say "yeah man, do it, it's awesome!" in good conscience, because I know that it really is dangerous. I know people who would be far, far better off today if they'd never taken any of those drugs. Some of those people, only took them once or twice. Do you homework.

Peace, and long life!

(p.s.: my use of "solipsism" is, I think, kinda close but not really the correct word. If anyone knows another, better word for that experience, I'd really appreciate knowing it :)

posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:54 AM on December 7, 2016