I go to Paris in week - help me not look like an idiot!

May 10, 2016 7:51 AM

Every time I'm about to visit a new country I get fairly anxious about being a jerk. Aside from your usual "don't-be-inconsiderate-in-a-large-city" advice (I live in NY and am aware of typical "don't just stand in the middle of a busy sidewalk" rules, etc ), are there certain French-specific customs I should be aware of so I can at least pretend I'm a cool and wordly tourist instead of a bumbling jackass tourist?

Maybe you live or have lived in Paris and have seen some tourists "not get it". Help me get it. My only goals for visiting is walking around, getting lost, eating great food, drinking coffee in cafes, and blending into the background as much as possible (maybe hitting a museum or two if they aren't too crowded).

I speak no French at all but am trying to learn some basic phrases and correct pronunciations - from what I've heard asking immediately if "parlez-vous anglais" is not appreciated sometimes, especially in non-tourist heavy areas (my favorite areas!) so I want to at least make an effort even if it ends with me shrugging and apologizing profusely that mon francais est horrible, désolé désolé (in other countries, this breakdown usually happens when someone tells me how much something costs and the number is not a flat 1-10. "Є3.57" in french = me confused as hell and oh my god what are they saying to me).

So I guess I'm looking for two things:

1) Any resources for learning basic french phrases really quick - duolinguo is nice and all but I just want to be respectful while ordering a beer or a coffee with cream and sugar...not looking to become conversational in one week.

2) Any customs I should be aware of? I don't expect to blend in completely, but in what ways can I at least try? Things as simple as being seated in a cafe or restaurant, tasting/buying cheese at a fromagerie, walking into a wine/small plates bar...I just don't want to be a pig, you know?

_{For further reference, no I will not be walking around with a backpack, fanny pack, camera, or shorts/sneakers/sandles/crocs.}

posted by windbox to Travel & Transportation around Paris, France (40 answers total)

Say hello when you enter a store. First. Don't wait for them to greet you.
posted by srboisvert at 8:05 AM on May 10, 2016 [22 favorites]

Do not go into a store expecting a public restroom. You will invariably be disappointed.
posted by lecorbeau at 8:08 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think you are worrying too much about this. You be you, just be polite. Be comfortable - shorts and sneakers are fine if that is what you are comfortable in. You will probably be walking a LOT (although if you are from NYC, it probably won't be more than you're used to). Get a map and look up some museums that you are interested in seeing, so you are more prepared in your native language, and won't need as much help.

Menus are posted on the outside of restaurants with prices so you can decide if you want to eat there or not. Tips are not expected, but are welcome.

McDonalds are good places for a public restroom if you need it.
posted by jillithd at 8:11 AM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

You definitely don't want to be rude, but you can't avoid looking like a tourist. You are one. Anxious hypercorrection against it just makes you look fussy. It's a trope that the French are rude and unwelcoming to strangers, but, in my trips, I haven't seen it. Though they do seem less willing to switch instantly to English than the Germans or Dutch or Icelanders are.

There are apps that will speak common phrases for you. You can use them to practice saying them yourself, or in a pinch you can play them to the person you're talking to. Make sure you at least know "hello"; "goodbye"; "please"; "thank you"; and "excuse me." But with lead time you can do a lot better.

Lines in more casual Paris stores tend to be...amorphous. I don't really know how everyone keeps track. You pretty much have to come in, note the entire content of the blob, and realize when no one else who was there first is stepping forward to be served. Unfortunately it's really hard to mime "Were you already waiting?"
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Small cultural difference- in my observation French people don't often eat or drink while moving. North Americans will chomp on a bagel and sip a coffee while walking; the French are likelier to sit and have a moment to savour the food. If you need to eat while walking I don't think any French person would care at all. But switching to that mindset of enjoying food more slowly will probably make your trip feel nicer, and more French.
posted by pseudostrabismus at 8:31 AM on May 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Being very generous with "please" (s'il vous plaît) and "thank you" (merci) (plus the already mentioned use of "bonjour" and "au revoir") seemed to go a long way in smoothing out any interactions with French people who spoke little or no English. Not surprisingly, being very polite from the start seemed to make people more willing to work with my minimal French plus hand gestures plus their minimal English to figure out what I needed and how to help me.

I'll second praemuire's point about French folks switching to English (I suspect quite a few French people speak English better than they will initially let on, no idea why) - which is to say I had several social situations where someone who initially claimed to speak almost no English and participated in conversation via a friend translating would eventually use fully comprehensible if somewhat awkward English. I never remarked on this unless they specifically asked me if their English was any good.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:36 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I went to Paris with basic French skills (my barely remembered rudimentary High School French) and almost every last person I spoke to switched to English the minute I said anything in French. I didn't ask them to speak English once, but they spoke it anyway and were really nice about it.

I think because I started with French, they were more willing to switch to English. Just go to the bookstore and grab a basic phrase book from the travel section and you should be fine. Hand gestures, pointing, patience and a good attitude also help with communication.

re. friendliness - I'm also a New Yorker and I found Parisians perfectly friendly. Bumbling doesn't make you a jackass, ignoring the fact that the whole population isn't on vacation like you makes someone a jackass.
posted by Julnyes at 8:38 AM on May 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

It's a trope that the French are rude and unwelcoming to strangers, but, in my trips, I haven't seen it. Though they do seem less willing to switch instantly to English than the Germans or Dutch or Icelanders are.

IMO the French, especially Parisians, are proud of their country and culture and appreciate being acknowledged for that.

Just trying to say "bonjour" with a smile goes a lot father than opening a conversation with "English, please".
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:39 AM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Best answer: I found this Trip Advisor thread about cafe etiquette helpful.
posted by neushoorn at 8:46 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you order Beaujolais the waiter may ask whether you'd like it cold. I know it's not exactly a big thing but it nearly threw me once.

I agree you are likely to find Paris friendlier, more relaxed, and more helpful than you expect, and that having a few basic phrases is a good idea.
posted by Segundus at 9:01 AM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Bumbling doesn't make you a jackass, ignoring the fact that the whole population isn't on vacation like you makes someone a jackass

Yeah this is kind of what I mean. To give an example and further clarification, I visited Spain a few years ago with a buddy who didn't seem to care that most Spanish people sit down for dinner at 9 or 10pm, so we'd sit down at these empty restaurants at 6 or 7 because he was too hungry to wait (he'd also wolf down his food and we'd be out of there in 20 minutes). I realize those things aren't the biggest offenses in the world, but I also felt kind of self-conscious and goofy. I hate committing faux pas like that and truly enjoy "doing as they do", so I'm just trying to get ahead of the curve.
posted by windbox at 9:02 AM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Best answer: I found Parisian culture to be more formally polite than I was used to as someone living in the American west. (Not a bad thing). Parisians are definitely not rude in general IMO.

Don't have a loud conversation at a restaurant or other public place unless it's a real emergency. When I lived in Paris I could always tell there were Americains in the restaurant this way.

Yes, always greet people in stores with "Bonjour monsieur/madame" or they'll think your rude or trying to shoplift. When you leave, say, "Au'voir, bonne journee." (Oh vwar bun jor nay). Most people, once they hear you make this effort, will offer to speak English with you and will be happy to practice their language skills.

People don't really smile on the street in Paris. If you do, it will be clear you're not from there (not that there's anything wrong with that) but you'll be more of a target for pickpockets or for men following you if you're a woman. Yes, smile at people you're talking to, but not just whistling down the street with a song in your heart. If someone says "Bonjour" or "Bonsoir" to you on the street, answer them back in kind. Don't leave them hanging.

Parisian servers don't get tipped (it's included in the bill), and they consider it good customer service to bring you your order and then leave you alone for a long time to enjoy it. They consider it bad service to pressure you to rush your meal/coffee/beer or to be perceived to be rushing you out of the cafe. I mean, why come and have a coffee at a cafe and take up a table there if you're just going to be there for ten minutes? So, it may take awhile for you to be able to make eye contact with someone and ask for the bill: "L'addition, s'il vous plait." (Lad iss ee on, see voo play). If you are really in a hurry to eat before you need to get somewhere, buy something from a crepe stand, go to a boulangerie and get a sandwich, or find a Bert's or a Starbucks. If you stop into a cafe for a quick coffee, take it at the bar. Some places still charge you less if you just drink it while standing at the bar and will expect you to pay and leave quickly. And as others have said, no eating and walking. A good croissant will cover you in crumbs if you try to walk while eating it, and you'll look really, really gauche.

Don't bring food into the movies.

If you go grocery shopping, don't fondle the fruit.

Oh, I almost forgot - if you really want to blend in, try to dress as nicely as you can while still wearing comfortable clothes for the activity. Don't run around in gym clothes outside the gym. Don't go out with wet hair. Other people have to look at you, so wear clothes that look clean, mended, and are appropriate for the occasion.

I hope you have the best time! Enjoy!!
posted by Pearl928 at 9:20 AM on May 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

Just trying to say "bonjour" with a smile goes a lot father than opening a conversation with "English, please".

You will of course note that I started by suggesting that one memorize standard polite phrases. I think most Europeans (indeed, most people worldwide!) are proud of their language and their culture, but most of them do not see the need to force you through endless pidgin and gestures when the conversation could be had much more easily for all in English. Assuming one does speak the visitor's language with reasonable skill, I think it's a childish thing to do. It's the one tourist-hostile experience I've had with the French.
posted by praemunire at 9:22 AM on May 10, 2016

Best answer: If you're going to buy something at an outdoor market, be aware that the interaction starts with talking to the vendor rather than with touching the products; you may eventually be invited to pick your food, or you may indicate it to them so they can pick it for you, but starting off by handling the goods would be a faux pas. This was a big cultural difference for me coming from the US, where (in my experience) at farmers markets people usually begin by scrutinizing/lifting/squeezing produce, then only start interacting with the vendor if we want to buy (and even then the interaction may be very minimal). This does not apply at a regular grocery store.

This is a good list of other info about the markets. Another tip: I find them to be a great place to buy YOGURT of all things, mmm, so good.
posted by Owl of Athena at 9:24 AM on May 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Have a translator or dictionary app on your phone or buy a small English/French dictionary. I always find a dictionary more useful than a phrase book with my rudimentary French. I can remember how to string sentences together, but often don't remember the French for the nouns and verbs. That's where the dictionary comes in.

When I went to Paris a couple of years ago with a friend from Ohio, we decided we'd only eat French food, and were disappointed to see the lines of American tourists outside McD's.

The only concession we made was to get a morning coffee from Starbucks (and then a croissant from the boulangerie next door). The reason? French hotels don't tend to provide a coffee maker. Ours had a hotplate and a saute pan. You know, in case we felt like making an omelette or a crepe. WTF, France? So be prepared to have to leave your room to get coffee in the morning, if breakfast isn't included in the price of our hotel room.
posted by essexjan at 9:25 AM on May 10, 2016

I spent last summer backpacking around Europe for two months, and one thing I'd failed to really grok before finally got through to me.

There is literally nothing you can do to "blend in" as an American traveler in Europe. And, honestly, the people in the places you travel (whether that's Paris or Crete) don't expect you to even try. This whole "how do I magic Europeans into believing I'm one of them" isn't really a thing.

Just be polite and kind and not a complete boor and you'll be fine.

Whatever you wear in NYC will be fine in Paris.

Pick up the DuoLingo app and use it to brush up on your French! Not so much to "blend in" but because it's good to at least try to speak the local language.

a buddy who didn't seem to care that most Spanish people sit down for dinner at 9 or 10pm, so we'd sit down at these empty restaurants at 6 or 7 because he was too hungry to wait (he'd also wolf down his food and we'd be out of there in 20 minutes).

This isn't rude. It's just not what a Spanish person would do. If the restaurant is open, they're happy to have your business. I'm sure the waitstaff giggled about your 20 minute dinners behind your backs, but who cares? When I was in Italy, at one point I was hungry for a snack and helped myself to a cup of coffee and a piece of cheese (this was in a home, not at a restaurant or something). The Italians I was with thought it was INSANE that a person would have coffee and cheese together at the same time. They laughed at me, I survived, who cares.
posted by Sara C. at 9:30 AM on May 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

When I went to Paris a couple of years ago with a friend from Ohio, we decided we'd only eat French food, and were disappointed to see the lines of American tourists outside McD's.

My experience was that there were more French people inside MacDo than Americans, but that's just me. Lots of business people at lunch getting the bacon burger.

Forgot about the beer. If you order a beer or someone offers you one (at anything but a house party), and they bring you a bottle, pour it into a glass. Drinking beer from the bottle in France, I guess, is like drinking milk from the carton. Didn't know that.
posted by Pearl928 at 9:32 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Don't call restaurant servers "garçon" like they do in the movies. It's rude.
posted by matildaben at 9:39 AM on May 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

A few people have mentioned it but not said it explicitly - it's considered more polite to say 'bonjour madame' or 'bonsoir monsieur' rather than just bonjour. I'm sure it's fine if you don't, but it makes people happier.
posted by kadia_a at 9:39 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Best answer: My personal list of embarrasment avoiders:
1. Talk quietly in restaurants. The tables are close together and French people physically keep their faces closer while talking so even a moderately loud voice really stands out
2. Always greet and say goodbye at a store. The response is always the same as the greeting, so just repeat what you hear.
3. Don't touch the produce at a street market.
4. At a café or any very casual place where you see a stack of menus, you do seat yourself, but you do not order at the bar / cash register unless you intend to finish your coffee while standing. There are up to three prices for standing/inside/outside (in order of increasing cost) and your server (who is not called garçon) will (eventually) come take your order if you are seated.
5. Don't overtip. 10% is the max, the word for tip is pourboire which basically means pocket change to buy a drink. Leaving your change behind, say €2 on a €28 bill, is perfectly proper. If you pay with a credit card, they might have to swipe and you will almost certainly have to sign, which may cause some minor bumbling as they look for a pen. You may or may not be able to put the tip on a credit card, but if you can you'll have to decide right there when the server brings the portable credit card machine to your table. Again, because servers don't live or die based on tips the amount of the tip is not nearly so big a deal.
6. Don't ask for a doggie bag. They probably don't have the containers. A few restaurants do, but the vast majority do not.
7. On a related note, unless you see something that says "pour emporter" they don't offer takeout either. Asian, pizza, and kebab places do offer takeout, but otherwise it's uncommon.
8. Do excuse yourself (désolé) when you bump into someone.
9. Don't wear red shirts. I wish I knew the reason, but it is not done. It's true that the French dress in much more subdued colors in general, and while my French is lousy I have been permitted to carry on in French for the duration of a transaction, so it can't hurt to blend in a little.
posted by wnissen at 9:46 AM on May 10, 2016 [13 favorites]

Drinks and snacks are sold at cinemas.
posted by brujita at 9:52 AM on May 10, 2016

I think the very fact you're asking the question puts you far ahead of any bumbling annoying tourist. The tips about politeness will help a ton, especially the greetings and such.

Pearl928 got at this with the mention of the "slow" service from waiters because they think it's polite to leave you alone: if you go to an actual bistro, like with a 3-course prix fixe menu posted, then that's what you're doing for the evening. Those are not really for, say, dinner before a theater performance, because you won't get out in time.

I like the Rick Steves guide books if you need one. He also covers a lot of the tips mentioned in this thread. And he's written up some great self-guided walking tours that are nice for getting to know the big neighborhoods, and the museum ones will save you money buying audio guides or tours in the museums themselves.

Oh, and Berthillon ice cream, on Ile St. Louis. Worth the line if there is one.
posted by dnash at 10:05 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Croissants are meant to be eaten as-is, or dipped in coffee or chocolate. You don't slice them open and try to force butter, or anything else, inside.
posted by pipeski at 10:05 AM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Best answer: Volume has already been mentioned, but I'd say it's probably the most common 'oblivious jerk' behaviour I encounter.

When you enter a room, building or other new environment, stop talking. Listen for a moment to determine the ambient noise level of that place. What can you hear of others' conversations? Resume your own conversation a little quieter than seems necessary based on what you heard, just to be safe. Monitor the reactions of those around you as you begin to talk. Have they frozen, fallen silent, are they exchanging glances?

If you're thinking 'I basically do a lot of that process already automatically' then you probably don't need to worry. If you're thinking 'what sort of paranoid freak checks noise levels when they walk into a room?' then there's a good chance your default speaking voice will sound obnoxiously loud in Paris and many other places. (No judgement, it's just a cultural difference.)
posted by Busy Old Fool at 10:08 AM on May 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

I live in Paris and speak fluent french but with an English accent, I would estimate 60% of the time I talk to someone in a service context, they immediately reply to me in English.
posted by ellieBOA at 10:43 AM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Something that will make you stand out more as a tourist -

Be aware that not all restaurants/cafes will be open all day. Most have a lunch period, and then close to new customers until dinner. Just because you see people sitting and eating in a restaurant at 2pm does NOT mean that it is open for you to come in and lunch, these may be people who started eating lunch at noon and have stuck around after they stopped seating people. My husband and I went to France for a month last year and our mantra was "if we're not eating lunch by noon, we're not eating" since most places stopped seating/serving food at around 1pm. Pulling on locked doors (despite people being inside) will make you feel and look like an idiot.

Some places around the touristy parts of town will advertise "all day service" which will be more akin to what Americans are used to.

I have rudimentary french skills, and found that it eases the way immensely when starting new interactions in french, even if it's just Bonjour.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 11:10 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just trying to speak French will put you ahead of 90% of the tourists in Paris. Find the French Pimsleur course. You'll be able to steam through half of the first CD in a week and it will give you excellent pronunciation and speedy recall skills, and at least enough to say "Est-ce que vous avez du salt and pepper".
posted by nevan at 11:39 AM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, yeah, Duolingo is great but it is geared toward reading/writing and a longer time frame. You want a quickie Berlitz phrase book and CD to practice along with. It won't take you more than an hour or two to learn the important phrases.
posted by wnissen at 12:23 PM on May 10, 2016

The thing I noticed most while living there years ago was that tourists from the US were just incredibly loud. Talk quietly. Don't hold loud conversations on the subway, etc. Even more so than in NYC.
posted by lab.beetle at 4:24 PM on May 10, 2016

IIRC, jam was served with croissants....but Nthing no butter on them, they're already made with a ton!
posted by brujita at 4:30 PM on May 10, 2016

Best answer: Nthing the "just trying to speak French will go a long way". I went to Paris for the first time in December, and everyone was just lovely to me (and I totally made this clerk's day when I told off a rude Anglo-speaking woman in English, and then turned to ask him a question in French).

Also agreeing with "bonjour Monsieur/Madame" when you enter a store.

If you're focusing on food, pick up the book "Clotilde's Edible Adventures in Paris" - it's by the blogger Clotilde Desouleier, from "Chocolate and Zucchini", and is a guide to her recommendations for restaurants, cafes, and food shops in Paris, arrondissement by arrondissement. And sprinkled throughout she also has some etiquette advice, like "how to behave in a store" and "how French menus are arranged" and such. (Clotilde is also a charming writer.)

One non-French-language, non-food tip: at several stops on the Metro, the doors will not open for you automatically - you need to manually open the door for yourself. That threw me a couple times - I'd be at the door ready to get off when the train pulled in, and I'd stand there like an idiot for a couple seconds wondering when the doors were going to open before remembering "oh, right."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:47 PM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks all. Things like subway doors, restaurant closures, croissant treatment and handling, etc is exactly the type of stuff I was looking for.
posted by windbox at 5:51 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

One thing NOT to worry about: when I went to Paris, I made sure not to bring sneakers because I'd heard for years that French people look down on Americans who wear sneakers. Of course, I got there, and everywhere I went I saw people wearing fashion sneakers like the ones I had at home. I asked my Parisienne friend and she said "Oh that's just those hideous enormous white sneakers. Of course people wear other sneakers here - they're comfortable!" I really wished I'd brought some comfortable but stylish sneakers because we did a LOT of walking!
posted by lunasol at 6:24 PM on May 10, 2016

When toasting, be sure to make eye contact with the other person while you clink glasses. This can be a bit of a challenge at a large table. I failed to do this once and was told by my fellow toaster that I'd have seven years of bad sex as a result. Tempted as I was, I refrained from asking "With you?"

When we were in Paris a couple of years ago, the biggest tourist gaffe we saw was from a guy who didn't know the French term for peanuts, to which he was deathly allergic. For several minutes he kept insisting his apparently nonsensical word was correct until the gracious waiter offered to look it up on his phone. "At least we're not that peanut guy" was our reassuring phrase for the rest of the trip whenever we felt the least bit gauche, and it can be yours as well.
posted by hydrophonic at 8:17 PM on May 10, 2016

Learn to recognize the Euro coins. The 1 and 2 Euro are similar size and color, as are the 10 and 20 cents.
posted by Homer42 at 1:01 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

You've probably been warned about this, but if you ask for water (eau) in a restaurant, particularly in a touristy area, you'll probably be given bottled water unless you specifically ask for tap.

It can be very fancy bottled water and they'll only be too glad to ask "still or sparkling?" but it will come with a very fancy price--I think I paid 7 Euros once. I'd even heard about this, and I still forgot to look up how to ask for tap water, and had to watch Youtube videos from my friend's apartment to learn how to say it properly after getting tired of wasting soo much money.

So don't be like me and learn before you go! Sidestep the "still or sparkling?" question and ask for "une carafe d'eau." I think this is the video I watched to learn how to pronounce it properly. Don't feel ashamed about this. As far as I can tell, nobody really cares. They all do it when they go out to eat. The water is fine. Save your Euros for pastries!
posted by spelunkingplato at 3:37 AM on May 11, 2016

I'm French (hence my poor English). If someone doesn't hold the door, there's a big chance they're a tourist. when you get in/out of a building or when entering / exiting the subway, hold the door for the next person!. And I'm very ambivalent about this but : if you're a man let women pass first. With all what it encompasses it is yet a silent rule that avoids people bumping into each other, so respect that rule if you don't want to be identified as a tourist on the spot.
posted by BlackBirdFly at 5:22 AM on May 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

1. Don't eat outside of proper meal times and eat at a damn table. (I was told "Bon appetit!" with a sly grin when my neighbor caught me running late with half an apple in my mouth). Say "bon appetit!" to dining companions when they pick up their knives and forks to dive in.
2. I was often called "bold" for wearing jcrew sweaters in red and blue. Colors black and darker are acceptable (expect in summer when crisp khaki or linen is good).
3. I was often asked "Is it raining out?" if I showed up with wet hair.
4. Bring your own grocery shopping bags or be prepared to pay. Weigh your fruits and veg by the fruit and veg and not with the checkout cashier.
5. If something is going your way it's fully acceptable to go "BAHHH, mais noooooooooooooon!!!" as long as you can continue to support the conversation in French. Complaining is a national sport. Getting huffy works far too well.
posted by raccoon409 at 8:44 PM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's a button on the produce scale which prints a sticker with weight and price.
posted by brujita at 1:18 PM on May 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not American, but have been living in the US for long enough to become used to American social norms. Most of the time we interacted fairly smoothly with Parisians and people were very polite, but the one issue we had was at the Musee D'Orsay on our last day. We squeezed in a visit there before our flight, and naively thought of grabbing a couple of croissants to go from the museum cafe. Well there's no grabbing, and certainly no to go. The cafe was in the middle of all the artwork, and they had absolutely no bags that would allow us to transport the croissants safely out of the museum, and of course they couldn't let us just hold them in our hands among all the priceless artwork. In our rush to get out of there, tempers were a bit frayed. We ended up wolfing down one croissant and stuffing the other into a handbag wrapped in paper napkins. Don't be us! Give yourself plenty of time in all such situations, because the French don't understand rush when it comes to food or meals.
Also for farmer's markets and the like, expect a long siesta period in the middle of the day and also that stalls will start packing up well before the stipulated end time.
posted by peacheater at 1:51 PM on May 15, 2016