Someday this won't be a crime, but right now it's a felony...
January 1, 2016 3:21 PM Subscribe
And there is no money for a lawyer. A couple of weeks ago, my daughter's close friend, Jen, was watching a movie with with a friend who stopped by to visit while passing through town, when the local police knocked on her suburban Chicago apartment door. After “friendly” chit-chat, the police asked if they could search the apartment. They had no warrant, so they needed her consent. Unfortunately, she was not aware of the “never, ever authorize a search without a warrant“ rule.
I don't know the stated reason for the police call that night, but Jen had been getting frequent visits from the police due to crazy landlord issues (my daughter's former landlord—something is wrong with this man), e.g., last month 5 officers arrived at 11:00 pm one night—3 at the front door, 2 on the back porch—because the landlord reported that she was cooking meth. She was not. Her meth-related experience begins and ends with “Breaking Bad”.
Given the frequent contact, Jen does not keep even misdemeanor amounts of pot in the apartment. When asked, her guest said he had no objections to the search, so she signed the consent form. Turns out, he had more than 6 pounds of marijuana in his bag—he was “passing through town” on his way to deliver this package. (Don't know what he was thinking, but I understand that it's not unusual for people to OK a search when they know there is something to be found. Often, they aren't aware of their options.)
He immediately claimed ownership of the bag and said that Jen was not involved and had no knowledge of the content. As they continued searching, the police also confiscated Jen's kitchen scale as “evidence”. Regardless of friend's statement, they were both arrested and charged with possession with intent to deliver, a class 1 felony. Bond was set at a surprisingly high $70,000. She doesn't have $7,000, so she has been in Cook County (IL) jail since the arrest. (She will be released with electronic monitoring when she has a suitable location.)
Since she cannot afford a lawyer, she will meet with a public defender a few minutes before her preliminary hearing next week, but that PD is unlikely to be the one who handles her case. In the meantime, she has no one—cannot even have private conversations about her case with non-lawyer friends on the outside who are trying to help.
I'm asking you all on her behalf for opinions and information regarding the following points (i.e., true, false, depends...) and questions. Note: much of this is from a downstate lawyer in a conservative town, who says things might be different in Cook County.
I don't know the stated reason for the police call that night, but Jen had been getting frequent visits from the police due to crazy landlord issues (my daughter's former landlord—something is wrong with this man), e.g., last month 5 officers arrived at 11:00 pm one night—3 at the front door, 2 on the back porch—because the landlord reported that she was cooking meth. She was not. Her meth-related experience begins and ends with “Breaking Bad”.
Given the frequent contact, Jen does not keep even misdemeanor amounts of pot in the apartment. When asked, her guest said he had no objections to the search, so she signed the consent form. Turns out, he had more than 6 pounds of marijuana in his bag—he was “passing through town” on his way to deliver this package. (Don't know what he was thinking, but I understand that it's not unusual for people to OK a search when they know there is something to be found. Often, they aren't aware of their options.)
He immediately claimed ownership of the bag and said that Jen was not involved and had no knowledge of the content. As they continued searching, the police also confiscated Jen's kitchen scale as “evidence”. Regardless of friend's statement, they were both arrested and charged with possession with intent to deliver, a class 1 felony. Bond was set at a surprisingly high $70,000. She doesn't have $7,000, so she has been in Cook County (IL) jail since the arrest. (She will be released with electronic monitoring when she has a suitable location.)
Since she cannot afford a lawyer, she will meet with a public defender a few minutes before her preliminary hearing next week, but that PD is unlikely to be the one who handles her case. In the meantime, she has no one—cannot even have private conversations about her case with non-lawyer friends on the outside who are trying to help.
I'm asking you all on her behalf for opinions and information regarding the following points (i.e., true, false, depends...) and questions. Note: much of this is from a downstate lawyer in a conservative town, who says things might be different in Cook County.
- Her friend's attempt to accept blame the night of the arrest is practically meaningless and may not even be in the police report. In fact, in terms of the law, she was “in possession” by virtue of the fact that it was in the apartment.
- The scale will make it difficult to argue against “intent to distribute”.
- She will likely be offered a plea bargain that will result in probation with frequent drug tests. Failing a drug test will mean returning to court and facing a felony sentence. This is far from ideal. She does not drink alcohol, but pot is an important part of her social life. In fact, she may prefer a short jail sentence to lengthy probation, just to have it all over with.
- Will she have an opportunity to discuss a plea deal (she's aware that calls are recorded) or will she have to decide on the spot? What would be a “good” deal in this situation? Note: she has no prior arrests.
- Her friend bonded out immediately and has hired a lawyer. He said he “may” pay for her attorney and will let her know one way or the other this week. Downstate lawyer says that a PD is fine for this very routine case, i.e., that there is no advantage to hiring a private lawyer. More important, he says she should have no further contact with him until this is settled and suspects that his lawyer will say the same about her. In which case, he is unlikely to pay for her lawyer.
This post was deleted for the following reason: This looks like it might be causing worse problems than it's solving. Please drop us a line at the Contact Form if you want to discuss it. -- restless_nomad
Please invest every second dollar you own in this.
posted by mumimor at 3:38 PM on January 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 3:38 PM on January 1, 2016 [7 favorites]
IANYPD, but I have a great deal of professional experience with people making horrible decisions in the name of "just to have it all over with," the consequences of which are unanticipated and long-lasting. I am not sure what statute your friend is charged under, but I am not aware of any drug statute anywhere that does not have a knowledge requirement. The prosecution has to prove more than the drugs were in her house. They have to show that she *knew* they were there. (A kitchen scale in a functioning kitchen is not especially probative of knowledge of drugs brought in by a visitor located elsewhere in a residence.) Knowledge is not a slam-dunk for the prosecution given the visitor's admission. Her attorney needs to get a statement from the friend confirming what he told the police. Her attorney needs to get her bond lowered if Cook County has a mechanism to do so due to her inability to pay. To my eye, $70,000 seems insanely high. It is worth the suffering up front to avoid a felony conviction that will be with her long after a short jail sentence.
*She will have the opportunity to discuss any plea deal with her attorney. If she is being pushed to accept a deal that requires her to admit something untrue, she will have to be a good self advocate and push back on that. If I were her attorney, I would demand a dismissal. I have obtained dismissals in similar circumstances.
*Unless she has lots of money to hire a fancy lawyer, she's better off with a public defender and a good idea of what she wants and advocating for that -- dismissal. Not having contact with her friend is probably a good idea as it is likely a condition of her bond, but her lawyer can talk to his lawyer and, with permission, to him directly. That is the safest way to go.
You are welcome to contact me with follow-up questions. I would have grave concerns with her accepting any plea deal under the facts you have provided here.
posted by *s at 3:49 PM on January 1, 2016 [23 favorites]
*She will have the opportunity to discuss any plea deal with her attorney. If she is being pushed to accept a deal that requires her to admit something untrue, she will have to be a good self advocate and push back on that. If I were her attorney, I would demand a dismissal. I have obtained dismissals in similar circumstances.
*Unless she has lots of money to hire a fancy lawyer, she's better off with a public defender and a good idea of what she wants and advocating for that -- dismissal. Not having contact with her friend is probably a good idea as it is likely a condition of her bond, but her lawyer can talk to his lawyer and, with permission, to him directly. That is the safest way to go.
You are welcome to contact me with follow-up questions. I would have grave concerns with her accepting any plea deal under the facts you have provided here.
posted by *s at 3:49 PM on January 1, 2016 [23 favorites]
"She might prefer a short jail sentence..." YIKES, in no circumstance is a prison sentence (she doesn't get to choose the length!) and a FELONY CONVICTION preferable to a lesser charge and drug testing.
Also, I know this is your daughter and this might seem unfathomable, but some parts of her story ring a little hinky to me so they may sound that way to others during her hearing. Not saying she's lying, just saying it could easily sound that way in court.
Basically she should be speaking to a lawyer and following her advice to the letter. If you can afford to hire one I certainly would, but in any event, a lawyer and only a lawyer can help her now.
Sorry-- this sounds nightmarish for her and for you.
posted by kapers at 3:56 PM on January 1, 2016 [9 favorites]
Also, I know this is your daughter and this might seem unfathomable, but some parts of her story ring a little hinky to me so they may sound that way to others during her hearing. Not saying she's lying, just saying it could easily sound that way in court.
Basically she should be speaking to a lawyer and following her advice to the letter. If you can afford to hire one I certainly would, but in any event, a lawyer and only a lawyer can help her now.
Sorry-- this sounds nightmarish for her and for you.
posted by kapers at 3:56 PM on January 1, 2016 [9 favorites]
Sorry for the huge misreading; this is your daughter's friend and not your daughter. Phew.
posted by kapers at 3:58 PM on January 1, 2016
posted by kapers at 3:58 PM on January 1, 2016
I'm not a lawyer but I've got a kitchen scale and I'd show them my active use diet tracker app to refute that slice of bullshit.
posted by tilde at 4:02 PM on January 1, 2016
posted by tilde at 4:02 PM on January 1, 2016
I know there is a wide public perception, fueled by media stories about overworked public defenders, that one must get a private lawyer to get any kind of defense, but this really is not the case. Someone who has no money, but can scrape a few thousand dollars together to hire some slapdick attorney who does family, immigration, and criminal law on the side is better served by a public defender. Some of the worst "get it over with" consequences I've had to dig someone out of were the result of low-quality private representation. The friend may not have the resources to hire a decent private attorney for her either. No matter who she winds up with as an attorney, she'll have to be a good self advocate and critical thinker. It's hard to do so in the press of county criminal court, where everyone from the prosecutor to the judge just wants to move cases along, but it's the most important job she has now.
posted by *s at 4:04 PM on January 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by *s at 4:04 PM on January 1, 2016 [14 favorites]
She really shouldn't fuck around with this. A felony conviction is on the line and that will destroy her ability to find work for years afterwards. I'd put less than no stock in what the attorney you know is telling you. Why is he even giving legal advice for a case he's not a part of? If you want to help this kid out, do everything you can to raise money to hire a private lawyer for her. Start a gofundme, etc. If she does have to go with a public defender make sure she talks to them about the consequences of any pleas she may make before she agrees to anything.
posted by MsMolly at 4:04 PM on January 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 4:04 PM on January 1, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is far from ideal. She does not drink alcohol, but pot is an important part of her social life.
She needs to come to terms with the fact that she's had a life altering event and that she may be stuck with acceptable rather than ideal. For whatever reason, she had attracted police attention (police don't usually just swing by for friendly talks - they were either after her or knew her friend was there and after him), and now she is now on the police radar as an associate with someone that is likely a courier or drug dealer. Whether or not she gets off on this charge, that's still going to haunt her with future interactions with the police.
She might need to reconsider her friends group if they have people that will put her at risk like this.
posted by Candleman at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2016 [21 favorites]
She needs to come to terms with the fact that she's had a life altering event and that she may be stuck with acceptable rather than ideal. For whatever reason, she had attracted police attention (police don't usually just swing by for friendly talks - they were either after her or knew her friend was there and after him), and now she is now on the police radar as an associate with someone that is likely a courier or drug dealer. Whether or not she gets off on this charge, that's still going to haunt her with future interactions with the police.
She might need to reconsider her friends group if they have people that will put her at risk like this.
posted by Candleman at 4:26 PM on January 1, 2016 [21 favorites]
She needs a good lawyer. She can't have had possession with intent to distribute if she wasn't aware of having possession; intent (mens rea) is required. If the friend doesn't change his tune and this is a first offense, a good lawyer is likely to solve this without any charge on her part— but she might have to testify against him and might be pressured to become an informant to show that she's "cooperating."
posted by Maias at 4:28 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Maias at 4:28 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'll agree that a mediocre general-practice attorney could well be worse than a PD who sees this exact charge from this exact prosecuting attorney in front of this exact judge multiple times every month. Of course, it all depends on the individual whose name you happen to draw and their level of motivation and time.
posted by salvia at 4:36 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 4:36 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
IANYPD either, but I agree with *s's second comment in that, in a lot of jurisdictions with a decent PD's office, the folks that often get the worst results are not the ones with the PDs, nor are they the ones with the means to hire a great lawyer. Instead, they're the ones with only the money to hire an average-to-below-average private attorney. Not really their fault, as it's hard for a layperson to figure out who's good; certainly, the folks I see on sites like Avvo are not the same folks I'd hire for myself if I were to get into trouble.
And while I don't practice in the relevant jurisdiction, I'm a little skeptical about some of what your downstate lawyer has to say. Let Jen's public defender do his or her job first. However, like *s said, it is (unfortunately) Jen's ultimate responsibility to advocate for herself as she works with her attorney. Maybe she will eventually come to her own informed decision to enter into a plea deal, but she should not plead just to get out of jail.
posted by SpringAquifer at 4:38 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
And while I don't practice in the relevant jurisdiction, I'm a little skeptical about some of what your downstate lawyer has to say. Let Jen's public defender do his or her job first. However, like *s said, it is (unfortunately) Jen's ultimate responsibility to advocate for herself as she works with her attorney. Maybe she will eventually come to her own informed decision to enter into a plea deal, but she should not plead just to get out of jail.
posted by SpringAquifer at 4:38 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
From what I've read, the system has very little time to spend on cases like this, and it's hard to get anyone's attention to make a case. Certainly, to any reasonable person, a scale that is in a kitchen has no relation to drugs in a bedroom without additional information.
As a practical matter, this is going to be settled between a prosecutor and a public defender. The defendant will have minimum time to make a decision, a few minutes at the most. The PD should have her prepared.
One of the consequences of the War On Drugs is that the police don't have to actually prove anything anymore. "Oh, a scale? She's a dealer." Its all shorthand.
There is some chance that the prosecutor can be talked down to a lesser charge, but very hard to make it go away entirely. Good luck to her.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:52 PM on January 1, 2016
As a practical matter, this is going to be settled between a prosecutor and a public defender. The defendant will have minimum time to make a decision, a few minutes at the most. The PD should have her prepared.
One of the consequences of the War On Drugs is that the police don't have to actually prove anything anymore. "Oh, a scale? She's a dealer." Its all shorthand.
There is some chance that the prosecutor can be talked down to a lesser charge, but very hard to make it go away entirely. Good luck to her.
posted by SemiSalt at 4:52 PM on January 1, 2016
If she truly didn't know he had drugs on him, she should NOT take a plea bargain. Doing that is the same on your record as if you pleaded guilty to the crime. She should say she is innocent! They can't prove she had intent or knowledge, hopefully.
Consequences to taking a plea or serving jail can range from not being able to vote, being denied employment and educational or housing loan opportunities, eviction, being unable to adopt kids later in life, and even being unable to apply for food stamps in some states!
It sounds like there's a decent chance she would fail to be convicted if it went to trial, so I would encourage her not to give up too early. Keep in mind that others around her may pressure her to accept a plea or go to jail because it's easier for them -- gets her case out of the system faster, even though it's a non-optimal result for her.
posted by hyperion at 5:08 PM on January 1, 2016
Consequences to taking a plea or serving jail can range from not being able to vote, being denied employment and educational or housing loan opportunities, eviction, being unable to adopt kids later in life, and even being unable to apply for food stamps in some states!
It sounds like there's a decent chance she would fail to be convicted if it went to trial, so I would encourage her not to give up too early. Keep in mind that others around her may pressure her to accept a plea or go to jail because it's easier for them -- gets her case out of the system faster, even though it's a non-optimal result for her.
posted by hyperion at 5:08 PM on January 1, 2016
These are my thoughts. This is my advice. I'm just some idiot on the internet. Be forewarned.
There is a Frontline documentary called The Plea about innocent (usually poor) people taking plea bargains. Often it is done with the idea that you can get it over with, without fully understanding the long term implications. If he is taking responsibility for the drugs and all they have a scale from her kitchen, they don't have a case against her. Unless she ran her mouth when the police were there, which sounds likely - frankly she sounds like a flibbertigibbet.
She should be very careful about what she does and says - her choices will follow her. In my opinion, it's better to stay in jail now, lose her house, her job, file bankruptcy, and on and on and have nothing on her record than it is to have a felony drug conviction (!). People take felony convictions seriously. Drug convictions eliminate a whole sector of jobs. This is a time for long term thinking. It's hard to have long term thinking when things are in crisis, but that's what you need here. Think ten years, not two weeks.
My daughter was adopted through foster care and her mother and her boyfriend recently got arrested for stealing a whole bunch of stuff. At the preliminary hearing, the dude took full responsibility for the crime (such a gentleman!) and the mother walked out of the courtroom a free woman. They did reserve the right to prosecute her on the charges in the future because of her history, but she walked away without anything being done. And she has a record the length of your arm! And the crime was caught on camera!
Do not assume the public defender is an idiot. He/she knows the system. He knows the prosecutor. He's obviously cares (or he did at some point). Talk to the lawyer. Don't plea unless you have to. Prosecutors like to prosecute when they can win. Unless there's something missing (which I'm sure there is) there isn't much to go on.
By the way, the kind of thinking that "Oh, I'll go to jail for a while so I don't have to do pee tests and can keep smoking pot" is frighteningly, I don't even know what the word is. I mean, I laugh at how often people on Metafilter say call a lawyer or the police or whatever but does she not realize she's in jail and keeping up her ability to keep breaking the law (even a stupid law) should not be one of her considerations? You don't go to jail and then go home. You'll be doing pee tests after jail, just like on probation.
Yikes.
posted by orsonet at 5:08 PM on January 1, 2016 [19 favorites]
There is a Frontline documentary called The Plea about innocent (usually poor) people taking plea bargains. Often it is done with the idea that you can get it over with, without fully understanding the long term implications. If he is taking responsibility for the drugs and all they have a scale from her kitchen, they don't have a case against her. Unless she ran her mouth when the police were there, which sounds likely - frankly she sounds like a flibbertigibbet.
She should be very careful about what she does and says - her choices will follow her. In my opinion, it's better to stay in jail now, lose her house, her job, file bankruptcy, and on and on and have nothing on her record than it is to have a felony drug conviction (!). People take felony convictions seriously. Drug convictions eliminate a whole sector of jobs. This is a time for long term thinking. It's hard to have long term thinking when things are in crisis, but that's what you need here. Think ten years, not two weeks.
My daughter was adopted through foster care and her mother and her boyfriend recently got arrested for stealing a whole bunch of stuff. At the preliminary hearing, the dude took full responsibility for the crime (such a gentleman!) and the mother walked out of the courtroom a free woman. They did reserve the right to prosecute her on the charges in the future because of her history, but she walked away without anything being done. And she has a record the length of your arm! And the crime was caught on camera!
Do not assume the public defender is an idiot. He/she knows the system. He knows the prosecutor. He's obviously cares (or he did at some point). Talk to the lawyer. Don't plea unless you have to. Prosecutors like to prosecute when they can win. Unless there's something missing (which I'm sure there is) there isn't much to go on.
By the way, the kind of thinking that "Oh, I'll go to jail for a while so I don't have to do pee tests and can keep smoking pot" is frighteningly, I don't even know what the word is. I mean, I laugh at how often people on Metafilter say call a lawyer or the police or whatever but does she not realize she's in jail and keeping up her ability to keep breaking the law (even a stupid law) should not be one of her considerations? You don't go to jail and then go home. You'll be doing pee tests after jail, just like on probation.
Yikes.
posted by orsonet at 5:08 PM on January 1, 2016 [19 favorites]
I am a public defender. I am not licensed to practice in Illinois, and I am not your lawyer or your friend's lawyer. None of this is legal advice. Your friend should take legal advice only from her attorney.
The Cook County Public Defender is widely considered by the criminal defense community to be a very good office. Many of the lawyers there have graduated from top schools, they have all been through extensive training, and they take their jobs and their responsibilities to their clients very seriously. I agree with the people above who note that they would rather have a public defender than a private attorney unless they have substantial funds to pay a top criminal defense attorney (and perhaps even then, because the PDs are, as has been said, often very good). They have more cases and less time per client than they should, but that could very well also be true of any attorney your friend could afford to pay. Even with all of that, if I were arrested, I would prefer to be represented by most public defenders, especially in a place like Chicago, than by almost any paid attorney out of the phone book.
If your friend is having conversations with anyone other than her lawyer--including you and her friends and your daughter--about the circumstances of her arrest, she could be creating additional evidence that can and will be used against her. If she is having conversations about the case with her co-defendant, she is potentially creating additional evidence that not only could be used against her, but also that could be used by him to pin the crime on her. Everything you've written in this question could become evidence that could be used against her, and if she has been talking with you about her case (which I assume is how you got the information you've listed in this question), she has made your daughter and you potential witnesses against her at a trial, if it comes to that. And this post is full of information that I'm sure the prosecutors would love to have and would love to use against her at trial. If you want to protect her, you should ask the mods to delete this question entirely, and she and you should not discuss the details of her case with anyone.
Your friend should ask her attorney about the serious, life-long consequences that come with a felony conviction, and she should not make a decision about whether to take a particular plea that might be offered based on hoping to avoid hassle for a few months without a full understanding of how the plea and the conviction will affect, for the rest of her life, her ability to obtain employment, housing, education, public assistance, international travel, voting rights, occupational licensing, assistance for herself or family members or current or future children, and dozens of other aspects of her life. She needs to talk only to her lawyer, and take advice only from her lawyer, before making decisions about how to proceed in her case.
Also, if she wants to know whether it makes sense to hire a private attorney, and if so, who is a good person to hire, she should ask her public defender about that, too. We public defenders try to be very humble about getting fired; we want what's best for our clients, and if they can be better served by someone who is not us, part of our job (and our ethical obligation) is to help a client fire us and get someone better. Because we actually care a lot about what happens to our clients, and so if there's someone else who is in a better position to get our clients better outcomes, all ego aside, we will help a client get that person on their case. But again, her lawyer is the only person she should be speaking to about any of this, and the only person she should be taking any kind of case-related advice from.
posted by decathecting at 6:26 PM on January 1, 2016 [73 favorites]
The Cook County Public Defender is widely considered by the criminal defense community to be a very good office. Many of the lawyers there have graduated from top schools, they have all been through extensive training, and they take their jobs and their responsibilities to their clients very seriously. I agree with the people above who note that they would rather have a public defender than a private attorney unless they have substantial funds to pay a top criminal defense attorney (and perhaps even then, because the PDs are, as has been said, often very good). They have more cases and less time per client than they should, but that could very well also be true of any attorney your friend could afford to pay. Even with all of that, if I were arrested, I would prefer to be represented by most public defenders, especially in a place like Chicago, than by almost any paid attorney out of the phone book.
If your friend is having conversations with anyone other than her lawyer--including you and her friends and your daughter--about the circumstances of her arrest, she could be creating additional evidence that can and will be used against her. If she is having conversations about the case with her co-defendant, she is potentially creating additional evidence that not only could be used against her, but also that could be used by him to pin the crime on her. Everything you've written in this question could become evidence that could be used against her, and if she has been talking with you about her case (which I assume is how you got the information you've listed in this question), she has made your daughter and you potential witnesses against her at a trial, if it comes to that. And this post is full of information that I'm sure the prosecutors would love to have and would love to use against her at trial. If you want to protect her, you should ask the mods to delete this question entirely, and she and you should not discuss the details of her case with anyone.
Your friend should ask her attorney about the serious, life-long consequences that come with a felony conviction, and she should not make a decision about whether to take a particular plea that might be offered based on hoping to avoid hassle for a few months without a full understanding of how the plea and the conviction will affect, for the rest of her life, her ability to obtain employment, housing, education, public assistance, international travel, voting rights, occupational licensing, assistance for herself or family members or current or future children, and dozens of other aspects of her life. She needs to talk only to her lawyer, and take advice only from her lawyer, before making decisions about how to proceed in her case.
Also, if she wants to know whether it makes sense to hire a private attorney, and if so, who is a good person to hire, she should ask her public defender about that, too. We public defenders try to be very humble about getting fired; we want what's best for our clients, and if they can be better served by someone who is not us, part of our job (and our ethical obligation) is to help a client fire us and get someone better. Because we actually care a lot about what happens to our clients, and so if there's someone else who is in a better position to get our clients better outcomes, all ego aside, we will help a client get that person on their case. But again, her lawyer is the only person she should be speaking to about any of this, and the only person she should be taking any kind of case-related advice from.
posted by decathecting at 6:26 PM on January 1, 2016 [73 favorites]
Also, other than the advice to talk only to her lawyer and ask questions of her lawyer and take her lawyer's advice, I would not follow any of the suggestions made by others in this thread. No one in this thread can tell her whether to take a plea (especially without knowing the details of the plea), or that it's a good idea to show anyone (other than her lawyer) evidence, or about what the likely outcomes are, or about whether the case is going to get dismissed, or about really anything else other than shut up and don't talk unless it's to your lawyer. There are several statements that have been made in this thread about what can or should happen that I believe to be incorrect, but since I'm not licensed in Illinois and I'm not her lawyer and don't know the facts of her case, I do not know whether they are actually incorrect. Only her lawyer will be able to tell her that, so until she speaks to her lawyer, she will not be able to evaluate what to do. She's going to need to be patient.
Message me if you want to talk further.
posted by decathecting at 6:33 PM on January 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
Message me if you want to talk further.
posted by decathecting at 6:33 PM on January 1, 2016 [20 favorites]
There is no reason at this point to give up. You/her friends can best help by ensuring that she has a place to go when all this is over and advising her to keep her mouth shut about the case if she isn't speaking to her attorney. That includes talking to you, your daughter, her mom, her "friend," or anyone else not her attorney or in their employ.
It's definitely not a hopeless case, by the way. I know someone who was arrested for possession w/intent based on a properly authorized search of their workplace, combined with the testimony of a coworker that the controlled substances were placed there by my acquaintance. They were lucky in that they had the resources necessary to bond out in under 24 hours, but the thing dragged on for months before the charges were dropped.
Of course, I know someone else whose vehicle was illegally searched, but ended up having to take a plea bargain for misdemeanor possession. (Their sentence was a small fine and DUI school) Such a plea might not be a terrible option if Illinois has a way to have the conviction (and preferably the arrest as well) expunged after a period of time.
Seriously, though, the most important thing her friends and family can do is ensure she has a way to get back on her feet when she does finally get out. With or without a conviction, her life will be a shambles for a bit since she has probably already lost her job and quite possibly has already or soon will lose her housing. This is the sort of thing that can really trap people if they don't have a support structure.
posted by wierdo at 6:42 PM on January 1, 2016
It's definitely not a hopeless case, by the way. I know someone who was arrested for possession w/intent based on a properly authorized search of their workplace, combined with the testimony of a coworker that the controlled substances were placed there by my acquaintance. They were lucky in that they had the resources necessary to bond out in under 24 hours, but the thing dragged on for months before the charges were dropped.
Of course, I know someone else whose vehicle was illegally searched, but ended up having to take a plea bargain for misdemeanor possession. (Their sentence was a small fine and DUI school) Such a plea might not be a terrible option if Illinois has a way to have the conviction (and preferably the arrest as well) expunged after a period of time.
Seriously, though, the most important thing her friends and family can do is ensure she has a way to get back on her feet when she does finally get out. With or without a conviction, her life will be a shambles for a bit since she has probably already lost her job and quite possibly has already or soon will lose her housing. This is the sort of thing that can really trap people if they don't have a support structure.
posted by wierdo at 6:42 PM on January 1, 2016
I don't know how to help you, but posting this in a public forum with a lengthy description of to accused's side of the story could potentially jeopardize her case. You should ask a mod to take this post down. She needs to speak to a lawyer immediately and you should be careful about speaking about the details of the alleged crime before the case has gone to trial.
posted by deathpanels at 6:57 PM on January 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by deathpanels at 6:57 PM on January 1, 2016 [13 favorites]
Oh, and also, stop taking advice from a lawyer who doesn't practice in Cook County, especially if he's not an experienced criminal defense attorney (but even if he is, these things vary really widely among local jurisdictions). Several of the pieces of advice you've attributed to him strike me (again, not licensed in Illinois, not giving legal advice here) as either likely factually incorrect, or strategically unwise. The answer to all of your questions is going to be "it depends," and it depends on factors that you shouldn't be discussing with her, and that only her lawyer will be able to advise her on.
It's also irresponsible (and in some jurisdictions, a violation of the bar ethics rules--I do not know whether this is true in Illinois) for attorneys to offer advice outside of their areas of expertise to non-clients, other than to advise them to speak to no one other than their lawyer about the case. If your lawyer friend didn't immediately read you the riot act about discussing this case with her, and then tell you that she shouldn't do anything until she talks to her lawyer, and then decline to give you any advice or recommendations or speculation about possible outcomes, I believe that lawyer was acting irresponsibly. Which is yet another reason for your friend not to trust or listen to the advice of anyone other than your friend's own lawyer.
posted by decathecting at 7:07 PM on January 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's also irresponsible (and in some jurisdictions, a violation of the bar ethics rules--I do not know whether this is true in Illinois) for attorneys to offer advice outside of their areas of expertise to non-clients, other than to advise them to speak to no one other than their lawyer about the case. If your lawyer friend didn't immediately read you the riot act about discussing this case with her, and then tell you that she shouldn't do anything until she talks to her lawyer, and then decline to give you any advice or recommendations or speculation about possible outcomes, I believe that lawyer was acting irresponsibly. Which is yet another reason for your friend not to trust or listen to the advice of anyone other than your friend's own lawyer.
posted by decathecting at 7:07 PM on January 1, 2016 [16 favorites]
Listen to *s; she knows what she's talking about.
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:13 PM on January 1, 2016
posted by MexicanYenta at 8:13 PM on January 1, 2016
Well, for a start, I would take out the part about her not wanting to take pee tests because they would jeopardise her ability to smoke pot in the future and the fact her social life revolves around the drug *mind boggles* That statement alone is enough to make me think the pot was hers, all hers, and the cops actually have the right idea.
posted by Jubey at 8:41 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 8:41 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
No, there is really no way to edit this question so that it does not contain potentially damaging information that could seriously hurt her case.
posted by decathecting at 9:00 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 9:00 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
I started to write something about the "wanting to go to jail rather than be on probation and not able to get high" thing and stupid shit my friends have done WRT probation as some advice, but holy shit delete this question.
Jubey and decathecting are right. But yea, this post needs to not exist.
posted by emptythought at 9:08 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Jubey and decathecting are right. But yea, this post needs to not exist.
posted by emptythought at 9:08 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Potential jurors could read this. I personally can't fathom anyone wanting to serve time (OMG!) and have a felony conviction just so they could continue to smoke pot for social reasons (you didn't even say it was for medical reasons which I would sympathise with). I'm evidently super sheltered, but I'm also a regular citizen and I doubt I'd be alone in my shock amongst a random batch of jurors. If I were her I would want to be perceived as the squeaky cleanest person ever.
I would've believed someone saying that it was their friends, they had no idea etc etc and the scale thing is bullshit but hearing that she'd go for serving time rather than trying to clear her name sounds, all so she can keep smoking is, to me (and I accept Others MMV) completely nuts. Things happen that make you change your social life. I can't eat gluten so that rules out a bunch of stuff. Sucks to be me, whatever. She's in jail on drugs charges; maintaining her ability to smoke pot is not the goal here!
That's a long winded way of saying, you wouldn't want someone reading this and then happening to be on her jury down the track.
posted by kitten magic at 9:18 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would've believed someone saying that it was their friends, they had no idea etc etc and the scale thing is bullshit but hearing that she'd go for serving time rather than trying to clear her name sounds, all so she can keep smoking is, to me (and I accept Others MMV) completely nuts. Things happen that make you change your social life. I can't eat gluten so that rules out a bunch of stuff. Sucks to be me, whatever. She's in jail on drugs charges; maintaining her ability to smoke pot is not the goal here!
That's a long winded way of saying, you wouldn't want someone reading this and then happening to be on her jury down the track.
posted by kitten magic at 9:18 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
In her free time, she likes to get high with her friends in her home
Oh my god, please delete this question.
posted by desjardins at 9:22 PM on January 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Oh my god, please delete this question.
posted by desjardins at 9:22 PM on January 1, 2016 [6 favorites]
Delete the question especially if you have used her real name!!!
And don't respond here saying whether you did or not!!!
posted by jgirl at 9:25 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
And don't respond here saying whether you did or not!!!
posted by jgirl at 9:25 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
People on parole (especially for drug offenses) often have to do drug tests, too - her thoughts about taking jail to avoid drug tests is frankly a terrible idea. I really hope she is as concerned as she should be about this and the consequences of a felony - if she's thinking about "oh, man, I might not get to use pot for a couple of years!" instead of "figure out how to have the charges dropped," her priorities are super-skewed.
posted by superlibby at 9:30 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by superlibby at 9:30 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
I question whether you have this young woman's best interests at heart. Your follow ups are very disturbing. It is unfortunate that she confided in you and you are showing poor judgment.
posted by Salamandrous at 9:31 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Salamandrous at 9:31 PM on January 1, 2016 [3 favorites]
This post contains information that really worries me and that could prejudice people in the system. It is also very easy to link the case if you do a search in the search engines. I just checked.
posted by acoutu at 9:32 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by acoutu at 9:32 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Bear in mind you know only what she and your daughter have told you which may or may not be accurate-in any case it's not great judgement to have all this info on here. I agree with desjardins.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:34 PM on January 1, 2016
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:34 PM on January 1, 2016
Did you seriously just give us her name and location?!?! STOP TALKING AND DELETE THE QUESTION BEFORE YOU HELP SEND YOUR FRIEND TO JAIL.
posted by Jubey at 9:47 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 9:47 PM on January 1, 2016 [2 favorites]
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