I need to trump Trump.
August 27, 2015 1:01 PM Subscribe
Tonight, I found out that my parents, both registered Democrats, support Donald Trump. I need to explain to them why this is bad.
My mom leans more to the right than my dad (she voted Obama/Romney, while my dad voted for Obama both times) but both think Obama has been a terrible president. They both dislike HRC, and my mom literally shuddered when I expressed my support for Bernie Sanders. They both vote in the primaries and will likely change their registration to Republican. That's fine by me, but I can't in good conscience not try to talk them out of Trump. I know how I'd address this with my peers, but how do I calmly and rationally discuss this with my sixtysomething parents?
They've become rather anti-immigrant, despite being of NINA Irish and fleeing Poland at the turn of the century descent. They also think Trump will be better than Obama in regard to foreign relations, like the rest of the world will like the US more with a racist, sexist blowhard as President. See, that's why I need help. I cannot tell my parents that Trump is a racist, sexist blowhard. On the other hand, my mom is a huge supporter of gay rights and they're both adamantly pro-choice. My dad was also in a union for most of his working life. Both are retired. Neither are religious. They contain multitudes. Talking points that affect them would be extra appreciated.
My mom leans more to the right than my dad (she voted Obama/Romney, while my dad voted for Obama both times) but both think Obama has been a terrible president. They both dislike HRC, and my mom literally shuddered when I expressed my support for Bernie Sanders. They both vote in the primaries and will likely change their registration to Republican. That's fine by me, but I can't in good conscience not try to talk them out of Trump. I know how I'd address this with my peers, but how do I calmly and rationally discuss this with my sixtysomething parents?
They've become rather anti-immigrant, despite being of NINA Irish and fleeing Poland at the turn of the century descent. They also think Trump will be better than Obama in regard to foreign relations, like the rest of the world will like the US more with a racist, sexist blowhard as President. See, that's why I need help. I cannot tell my parents that Trump is a racist, sexist blowhard. On the other hand, my mom is a huge supporter of gay rights and they're both adamantly pro-choice. My dad was also in a union for most of his working life. Both are retired. Neither are religious. They contain multitudes. Talking points that affect them would be extra appreciated.
I cannot tell my parents that Trump is a racist, sexist blowhard.
Maybe I wouldn't use the word blowhard, but why not tell them why you think Trump is both racist and sexist?
posted by jeather at 1:15 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
Maybe I wouldn't use the word blowhard, but why not tell them why you think Trump is both racist and sexist?
posted by jeather at 1:15 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
On the other hand, my mom is a huge supporter of gay rights and they're both adamantly pro-choice. My dad was also in a union for most of his working life.
Trump is against public-sector unions, and particularly dislikes public school teachers. He also vocally opposes same-sex marriage (and associated legal rights) and is anti-choice.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:17 PM on August 27, 2015 [39 favorites]
Trump is against public-sector unions, and particularly dislikes public school teachers. He also vocally opposes same-sex marriage (and associated legal rights) and is anti-choice.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 1:17 PM on August 27, 2015 [39 favorites]
Ask them if in all the years of seeing Trump in the public spotlight, have they ever seen him display any gesture of decency or respect towards another person?
Contrast with Obama, who, in spite of what they may think of his specific policies, at least seems to be a good father and husband.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:20 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
Contrast with Obama, who, in spite of what they may think of his specific policies, at least seems to be a good father and husband.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:20 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]
I thought this was an interesting angle to take: Donald Trump Just Stopped Being Funny.
posted by craven_morhead at 1:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by craven_morhead at 1:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
maybe try to understand them in more detail? why are they anti-immigrant? are they worried about something? if so, can you address those concerns?
in general people drift to the right as they get older. it might be worth studying why. a quick search turns up this article which might be useful.
maybe frame it in terms of the change you've seen? you'd need to tone it down a bit, but something along the lines of "you raised me to believe ...." or "i always respected my parents because they taught me ..." might help (sparingly!).
but parents do change. in my (limited sample of 2!) experience, it's generally for the better. so maybe just be thankful for the good bits?
posted by andrewcooke at 1:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
in general people drift to the right as they get older. it might be worth studying why. a quick search turns up this article which might be useful.
maybe frame it in terms of the change you've seen? you'd need to tone it down a bit, but something along the lines of "you raised me to believe ...." or "i always respected my parents because they taught me ..." might help (sparingly!).
but parents do change. in my (limited sample of 2!) experience, it's generally for the better. so maybe just be thankful for the good bits?
posted by andrewcooke at 1:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
How about just wait until the general election and see if you have to make the case then?
Four years ago, the GOP front-runners were a chain of truly joke candidates that never truly had a chance in hell of getting nominated, but happened to say the right combination of crazy things to have the anti-establishment wing of the GOP coalesce around them. From the plausible yet horrible Rudy Guiliani to the increasingly laughable but even more terrible Michelle Bachman, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich (!) and finally Rick Santorum led the polls in the period leading up to the primaries. All the while, Mitt Romney, the establishment candidate, struggled, but ultimately won, and in the end, that victory was not particularly close. It's still August, this point in the election cycle is purely entertainment and fundraising, who is leading the polls means literally nothing about who will win the nomination. The extreme likelihood is that an establishment candidate (Bush, Rubio, Kasich, Perry, maybe Walker) will win the nomination. If it turns out they won't have the opportunity to ever vote for Trump, maybe it'd be easier on you to let the rest of the GOP field and the conservative media slowly let out the air of Trump's campaign.
posted by skewed at 1:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
Four years ago, the GOP front-runners were a chain of truly joke candidates that never truly had a chance in hell of getting nominated, but happened to say the right combination of crazy things to have the anti-establishment wing of the GOP coalesce around them. From the plausible yet horrible Rudy Guiliani to the increasingly laughable but even more terrible Michelle Bachman, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich (!) and finally Rick Santorum led the polls in the period leading up to the primaries. All the while, Mitt Romney, the establishment candidate, struggled, but ultimately won, and in the end, that victory was not particularly close. It's still August, this point in the election cycle is purely entertainment and fundraising, who is leading the polls means literally nothing about who will win the nomination. The extreme likelihood is that an establishment candidate (Bush, Rubio, Kasich, Perry, maybe Walker) will win the nomination. If it turns out they won't have the opportunity to ever vote for Trump, maybe it'd be easier on you to let the rest of the GOP field and the conservative media slowly let out the air of Trump's campaign.
posted by skewed at 1:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]
What is it about Trump that they like? What is it about Obama that they dislike? I think it will be easier to discuss this if it was more issue-based. I don't like Obama's foreign policies either, but I do think he's done some good things for human rights within the U.S; therefore, I wouldn't say he's a terrible president even though I disagree with a lot of what he's done.
I feel like the people who support Trump are large assholes that feel like they haven't been represented enough (not saying your parents are assholes). It seems like your parents do have some progressive views and are maybe just focusing on one aspect of the Trump campaign. Maybe start from what that aspect is (tired of lying politicians, trump at least is consistently honest, etc.), and talk about how that still doesn't balance out all the other bs.
And maybe just throw in there that he's likely raped his ex-wife.
posted by monologish at 1:29 PM on August 27, 2015
I feel like the people who support Trump are large assholes that feel like they haven't been represented enough (not saying your parents are assholes). It seems like your parents do have some progressive views and are maybe just focusing on one aspect of the Trump campaign. Maybe start from what that aspect is (tired of lying politicians, trump at least is consistently honest, etc.), and talk about how that still doesn't balance out all the other bs.
And maybe just throw in there that he's likely raped his ex-wife.
posted by monologish at 1:29 PM on August 27, 2015
Don't go in with a plan that you will prove them wrong, or that you will show them how terrible Trump is. Go in with a plan to understand their position fully and to help them understand their position fully. Ask a lot of questions, of the "what do you know and how do you know it" variety. Try to understand their concerns, and how Trump is likely to meet those concerns, and what evidence exists for it.
It's hard to have a conversation with someone who thinks that you are wrong. It's much more satisfying to talk to someone that wants to understand where you are coming from. You can be that person for your parents!
Also: I believe that someone like Trump cannot really withstand a vigorous inspection.
posted by cubby at 1:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [24 favorites]
It's hard to have a conversation with someone who thinks that you are wrong. It's much more satisfying to talk to someone that wants to understand where you are coming from. You can be that person for your parents!
Also: I believe that someone like Trump cannot really withstand a vigorous inspection.
posted by cubby at 1:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [24 favorites]
If you are really pro-Democrat, don't you want Trump to win the nomination, because surely there are countless people to stand up and say Trump harassed me/discriminated against me? I mean, he speaks his mind, which is the worst thing in the world for foreign relations. Do you think the Chinese or Iraqi presidents/prime minsters understand brash sarcasm?
With that said, here's something from the blaze which purports to debunk what supporters like about him. And in an article from the New York Times, it shows how Trump is plain nasty to other professionals.
Essentially, presidential politics involves lots of coalition building, and Trump is a my-way-or-the-highway big talker, who won't let anyone take advantage! It's hard to see how anything could get done with him at the helm, since he'd end up pissing off everyone by January 25.
Also, why can't you address their concerns like you would your friends? It seems to me that if you had a friend who supported The Donald, and you feel could convince them, why would you treat your parents differently?
posted by China Grover at 1:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
With that said, here's something from the blaze which purports to debunk what supporters like about him. And in an article from the New York Times, it shows how Trump is plain nasty to other professionals.
Essentially, presidential politics involves lots of coalition building, and Trump is a my-way-or-the-highway big talker, who won't let anyone take advantage! It's hard to see how anything could get done with him at the helm, since he'd end up pissing off everyone by January 25.
Also, why can't you address their concerns like you would your friends? It seems to me that if you had a friend who supported The Donald, and you feel could convince them, why would you treat your parents differently?
posted by China Grover at 1:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Step 1: Respect other peoples opinions. We vote for a reason.
Step 2: see step 1.
Absolute rubbish.
Echoing Taibbi's article above, Adam Kotsko, Trump is not Funny:
Step 2: see step 1.
Absolute rubbish.
Echoing Taibbi's article above, Adam Kotsko, Trump is not Funny:
Even leaving all that aside, if Trump wins the Republican nomination, that makes him more, not less likely to become president. And given what we know about him, that’s a frightening prospect. His business career does not provide us with much confidence that he will live up to America’s international agreements. He is a misogynist whose ex-wife has accused him of rape. His immigration plan amounts to ethnic cleansing, and he is not shy about stoking up violent emotions about immigrants — most notably when he claimed that Mexican immigrants were all a bunch of rapists. And when one of his followers was literally inspired to commit murder by his rhetoric, he did not appear to care at all. All this adds up to fascism — not as a slur, not as a rhetorical exaggeration to rally the troops, but literal, textbook fascism.posted by standardasparagus at 1:31 PM on August 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
Some might say it could never happen here. Well, then exactly where the hell else could it happen? This is a nation where ethnic minorities are gunned down in the street by the police, and where the murderers hold successful Kickstarter campaigns. It’s a nation that is perpetually at war and whose military and intelligence services are well known to have used torture with impunity. It’s a nation where the powerful have perfected scapegoating and victim blaming to a science.
Hey! according to the 1600 or so people surveyed by Quinnipiac 38 of them chose "blowhard" as the first word they came up with when asked about Donald Trump. It was the second most chosen word after "arrogant" and just slightly ahead of "idiot."
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 1:38 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 1:38 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Donald Trump mocks Asians with broken English while speaking about China, Japan relations at campaign rally
Do they think this is
a) okay
b) a good way to interact in the world knowing you could be meeting with world leaders?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:40 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Do they think this is
a) okay
b) a good way to interact in the world knowing you could be meeting with world leaders?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:40 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
There was such a great This American Life episode called Red State Blue State where they interviewed people about the effect political polarization has on the relationships. As a card carrying member of the liberal elite, one small line made a huge difference to the way I think and talk about politics with people:
Anne: A lot of Democrats just assume I don't understand the issues and if only I was better educated on them, I would believe like they do.
She says it with such a mix of indigence and despair. It's just a small part of the overall episode, but I was like, yup, I totally think that. I try to just make people understand why they are deeply and fundamentally wrong or misinformed or uninformed. Not a great or particularly effective approach. It puts people on the defensive and comes off pretty condescending.
I think the best approach for making your point while preserving your familial relationship is to discuss with them who you're voting for and why, and why you aren't voting for Trump- not to try to dissuade them from their own choice. As obviously terrible a choice as it might be, it is their choice to make.
posted by whodatninja at 1:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
Anne: A lot of Democrats just assume I don't understand the issues and if only I was better educated on them, I would believe like they do.
She says it with such a mix of indigence and despair. It's just a small part of the overall episode, but I was like, yup, I totally think that. I try to just make people understand why they are deeply and fundamentally wrong or misinformed or uninformed. Not a great or particularly effective approach. It puts people on the defensive and comes off pretty condescending.
I think the best approach for making your point while preserving your familial relationship is to discuss with them who you're voting for and why, and why you aren't voting for Trump- not to try to dissuade them from their own choice. As obviously terrible a choice as it might be, it is their choice to make.
posted by whodatninja at 1:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
I cannot tell my parents that Trump is a racist, sexist blowhard.
Why not?
It's hard to talk people out of an opinion from a see-here-I-have-thought-about-this-much-more-deeply-and-critically-than-you-have position. Especially if it's your parents. Honestly, just letting relatives have their hideous retrograde political opinions and not giving a shit about trying to talk them out of them has been enormously good for my mental health. But if you really have to, I'd just stick to the basic visceral points of your distaste for him.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:44 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why not?
It's hard to talk people out of an opinion from a see-here-I-have-thought-about-this-much-more-deeply-and-critically-than-you-have position. Especially if it's your parents. Honestly, just letting relatives have their hideous retrograde political opinions and not giving a shit about trying to talk them out of them has been enormously good for my mental health. But if you really have to, I'd just stick to the basic visceral points of your distaste for him.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:44 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
If they don't respond to the racism angle, you might hit them up with numbers:
It costs about $23,000 to deport one person.
ICE has stated they have the capacity to deport 400,000 people per year.
This means it would take about 20 years and cost between $400-600 billion dollars to implement Trump's "deport everyone" plan.
Fencing along the border costs on average $4 million per mile, so another $8 billion or so for his fence plan.
And the end result? Economists say:
Real GDP would drop by nearly $1.6 trillion and shave 5.7 percent off economic growth.
So his plan, as a businessman, is to pay half a trillion dollars to hurt our own economy, which is probably why Trump has filed for bankruptcy four times.
On preview: whodatninja made a great point about not condescending or assuming others aren't informed enough, although Trump is running on his business acumen, so I think it's an interesting discussion point that he has a business plan that just doesn't work.
posted by bluecore at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2015 [40 favorites]
It costs about $23,000 to deport one person.
ICE has stated they have the capacity to deport 400,000 people per year.
This means it would take about 20 years and cost between $400-600 billion dollars to implement Trump's "deport everyone" plan.
Fencing along the border costs on average $4 million per mile, so another $8 billion or so for his fence plan.
And the end result? Economists say:
Real GDP would drop by nearly $1.6 trillion and shave 5.7 percent off economic growth.
So his plan, as a businessman, is to pay half a trillion dollars to hurt our own economy, which is probably why Trump has filed for bankruptcy four times.
On preview: whodatninja made a great point about not condescending or assuming others aren't informed enough, although Trump is running on his business acumen, so I think it's an interesting discussion point that he has a business plan that just doesn't work.
posted by bluecore at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2015 [40 favorites]
One approach you could consider is to understand the things that are important to them and then make the case that Trump is a horrible advocate for these things. I'm pretty confident that basically any conservative principles/ideas that he has would be better advanced by a different candidate.
posted by Betelgeuse at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Betelgeuse at 1:50 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
You could also point them to this article, which is an optimistic take on the Trump presidency.
posted by Betelgeuse at 1:53 PM on August 27, 2015
posted by Betelgeuse at 1:53 PM on August 27, 2015
OP, what is your motivation here? To try to get your family to be more politically homogeneous, or to try to reduce the number of votes Trump gets? If it's the former, I'd reconsider how much that really matters. Your parents seem to have thought through their specific reasons for supporting Trump. OK, so your parents might be moderate liberals who have been drifting rightward — but Trump is arguably the most progressive Republican candidate (according to the liberal ThinkProgress), so maybe he really is the best choice for them.
And if your motivation is that you truly want to reduce Trump's votes as much as possible ... as someone else pointed out, are you sure that's in your interest as a liberal Democrat? (I assume that's accurate since you support Sanders.) Trump would be a terrible candidate in the general election! Trump has no previous political experience; he's flip-flopped on even more issues than Romney; he's on record saying glowing things about Hillary Clinton and donating tons of money to Democratic political candidates; he seems to be incapable of doing basic damage control when he makes dumb statements; and he's incredibly undisciplined (he barely prepared for the first debate, and it showed). His support among Hispanics, a crucial demographic in the general election, is far worse than any other Republican. (By contrast, the gender gap in support for Trump is about average for a Republican.) So I'd argue that you should actually want him to be the Republican nominee, since he'll have a worse chance at beating the Democrat than any other plausible Republican nominee. And if he wins, hey, at least you get a relatively liberal Republican as president!
That aside, if you want to prove that Trump has said some racist or sexist things, see this list of 199 things he's said (e.g. #9, #34). However, one of the most commonly cited reasons for supporting Trump is that he said what he thinks and doesn't worry about whether it's politically correct, so that list might only galvanize Trump supporters.
Oh, and have them watch this movie (free online — from the early '90s, unreleased until this year).
posted by John Cohen at 1:56 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
And if your motivation is that you truly want to reduce Trump's votes as much as possible ... as someone else pointed out, are you sure that's in your interest as a liberal Democrat? (I assume that's accurate since you support Sanders.) Trump would be a terrible candidate in the general election! Trump has no previous political experience; he's flip-flopped on even more issues than Romney; he's on record saying glowing things about Hillary Clinton and donating tons of money to Democratic political candidates; he seems to be incapable of doing basic damage control when he makes dumb statements; and he's incredibly undisciplined (he barely prepared for the first debate, and it showed). His support among Hispanics, a crucial demographic in the general election, is far worse than any other Republican. (By contrast, the gender gap in support for Trump is about average for a Republican.) So I'd argue that you should actually want him to be the Republican nominee, since he'll have a worse chance at beating the Democrat than any other plausible Republican nominee. And if he wins, hey, at least you get a relatively liberal Republican as president!
That aside, if you want to prove that Trump has said some racist or sexist things, see this list of 199 things he's said (e.g. #9, #34). However, one of the most commonly cited reasons for supporting Trump is that he said what he thinks and doesn't worry about whether it's politically correct, so that list might only galvanize Trump supporters.
Oh, and have them watch this movie (free online — from the early '90s, unreleased until this year).
posted by John Cohen at 1:56 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I've spend fifteen years arguing with my father about politics with literally no progress. To be honest I'd recommend just accepting that when people get older (and, if I may venture a guess, start watching a lot of Fox News) they lose a step. Just talk to them about other stuff instead.
posted by gerryblog at 2:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by gerryblog at 2:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
If they'd be likely to read it, you may want to show them Evan Osnos' new article in the New Yorker so they can see exactly who they're getting into bed with:
Jared Taylor, the editor of American Renaissance, a white-nationalist magazine and Web site based in Oakton, Virginia, told me, in regard to Trump, “I’m sure he would repudiate any association with people like me, but his support comes from people who are more like me than he might like to admit.”
posted by ryanshepard at 2:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Jared Taylor, the editor of American Renaissance, a white-nationalist magazine and Web site based in Oakton, Virginia, told me, in regard to Trump, “I’m sure he would repudiate any association with people like me, but his support comes from people who are more like me than he might like to admit.”
posted by ryanshepard at 2:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Honestly, just letting relatives have their hideous retrograde political opinions and not giving a shit about trying to talk them out of them has been enormously good for my mental health.
This, really. Unless your parents plan on doing really high level donating or campaigning for him you should consider just letting them be cretins. When my mom would say cryptoracist shit about Obama, which she 100% picked up from her worthless trash boyfriend, I would just laugh and tell her it was clearly time for her to have a mental health assessment.
Possible talking points: cherrypick some non-obvious but still inflammatory statements from Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini and ask your parents if they think Trump said them.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:18 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
This, really. Unless your parents plan on doing really high level donating or campaigning for him you should consider just letting them be cretins. When my mom would say cryptoracist shit about Obama, which she 100% picked up from her worthless trash boyfriend, I would just laugh and tell her it was clearly time for her to have a mental health assessment.
Possible talking points: cherrypick some non-obvious but still inflammatory statements from Hitler and Stalin and Mussolini and ask your parents if they think Trump said them.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:18 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Pepsi blue? The message here is "Democrats and your parents are voting for Trump"
To answer, I'd talk about how Trump is a liar: he says things that he knows are false just to manipulate voters. To him, truth doesn't matter as long as he wins.
posted by sninctown at 2:20 PM on August 27, 2015
To answer, I'd talk about how Trump is a liar: he says things that he knows are false just to manipulate voters. To him, truth doesn't matter as long as he wins.
posted by sninctown at 2:20 PM on August 27, 2015
Two tacks:
Honestly, at this point, if they wanted a Democrat to win, the best thing they could do would be stump for Trump getting the GOP nomination. He has basically zero chance in the general unless all people of color sit it out — and his bullshit towards, say, respected Univision anchors, is pretty good for firing up that base for the Dems. They can support him all they want — just tell them to make sure he pays his own way and to not donate any money to his campaign. Maybe later, after Trump has crashed and burned, they can come around to someone more reasonable.
If you'd really rather persuade them though, the way to do it isn't through a barrage of facts or indignation, since that just generally makes people double down on their beliefs since they identify with them more and have more at stake emotionally in changing their minds. So, to set up persuasion conversations, you're going to want to identify an emotional core (say, immigration), ideally pose the gambit in terms of "I used to believe X, but now I…" and get them to consider an emotional narrative where they, or someone they love, would have been hurt by Trumps positions, then ask them to think about what position they would suggest if they were in charge. Through that consideration, people tend to do better at 1) rejecting the knee-jerk anger or indignation that Trump plays on, 2) empathizing and identifying with folks most adversely hurt by Trump's putative positions (it is worth noting that he's been all over the map on abortion and taxes and pretty much whatever else — he's an egomaniac with zero self reflection, so inconsistency is not surprising), and 3) by getting them to think about what policies they'd advocate with a priming of empathy for those most adversely affected, they're more likely to propose more moderate, thoughtful solutions that you can point out better map to other candidates. And because they proposed those solutions, they'll identify with them more and hold those views more persistently.
posted by klangklangston at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Honestly, at this point, if they wanted a Democrat to win, the best thing they could do would be stump for Trump getting the GOP nomination. He has basically zero chance in the general unless all people of color sit it out — and his bullshit towards, say, respected Univision anchors, is pretty good for firing up that base for the Dems. They can support him all they want — just tell them to make sure he pays his own way and to not donate any money to his campaign. Maybe later, after Trump has crashed and burned, they can come around to someone more reasonable.
If you'd really rather persuade them though, the way to do it isn't through a barrage of facts or indignation, since that just generally makes people double down on their beliefs since they identify with them more and have more at stake emotionally in changing their minds. So, to set up persuasion conversations, you're going to want to identify an emotional core (say, immigration), ideally pose the gambit in terms of "I used to believe X, but now I…" and get them to consider an emotional narrative where they, or someone they love, would have been hurt by Trumps positions, then ask them to think about what position they would suggest if they were in charge. Through that consideration, people tend to do better at 1) rejecting the knee-jerk anger or indignation that Trump plays on, 2) empathizing and identifying with folks most adversely hurt by Trump's putative positions (it is worth noting that he's been all over the map on abortion and taxes and pretty much whatever else — he's an egomaniac with zero self reflection, so inconsistency is not surprising), and 3) by getting them to think about what policies they'd advocate with a priming of empathy for those most adversely affected, they're more likely to propose more moderate, thoughtful solutions that you can point out better map to other candidates. And because they proposed those solutions, they'll identify with them more and hold those views more persistently.
posted by klangklangston at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
To be honest I'd recommend just accepting that when people get older (and, if I may venture a guess, start watching a lot of Fox News) they lose a step.
Doesn't look like that's true, actually.
Here's a site that kind of summarizes all the candidate's views. How do your parents feel about climate change? Because Trump apparently thinks it's a hoax invented by/for the Chinese.
posted by Huck500 at 2:37 PM on August 27, 2015
Doesn't look like that's true, actually.
Here's a site that kind of summarizes all the candidate's views. How do your parents feel about climate change? Because Trump apparently thinks it's a hoax invented by/for the Chinese.
posted by Huck500 at 2:37 PM on August 27, 2015
The election is a long, long time from now. Just sideye them and remind them this is a presidential election, not a new reality show, and treat their support with the gravity it deserves.
After all, we still don't know he's not a GOP plant. Or a Dem plant. Or a potted plant. There is no reason to take this seriously except that it's sad when you find our your parents are dumb as bags of Barbie heads.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:38 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
After all, we still don't know he's not a GOP plant. Or a Dem plant. Or a potted plant. There is no reason to take this seriously except that it's sad when you find our your parents are dumb as bags of Barbie heads.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:38 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
To answer, I'd talk about how Trump is a liar: he says things that he knows are false just to manipulate voters. To him, truth doesn't matter as long as he wins.
Trump is worse than a liar. He's a bullshitter, a huckster whose life can be summed up as decades of saying whatever it takes to make a sale.
I'm not saying you need to quote Frankfurt, but beyond racist impulses that all old people get, do you think your parents care about basic honesty? Did they raise you to have those principles, whatever your political views happen to be?
Maybe ask that question of them — "Did you raise me to be truthful?" — and push them to ask that of themselves.
If they take a long, hard look at Trump as a person, do they get a sense that he is really on the level with them — or with anyone?
Can they vote for someone who is effectively a used car salesman, and do so with a clear conscience, knowing the job of President holds millions of lives in the balance?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:09 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
Trump is worse than a liar. He's a bullshitter, a huckster whose life can be summed up as decades of saying whatever it takes to make a sale.
"What bullshit essentially misrepresents is neither the state of affairs to which it refers nor the beliefs of the speaker concerning that state of affairs. Those are what lies misrepresent, by virtue of being false. Since bullshit need not be false, it differs from lies in its misrepresentational intent. The bullshitter may not deceive us, or even intend to do so, either about the facts or about what he takes the facts to be. What he does necessarily attempt to deceive us about is his enterprise. His only indispensably distinctive characteristic is that in a certain way he misrepresents what he is up to.Trump doesn't care much for facts or reality or how things "truly are". To him, a position is a means to an end, to get assent or approval from voters or whoever is the audience in front of him that he has to sell his product to — basically, in the parlance of business, he just wants to close the deal.
"This is the crux of the distinction between him and the liar. Both he and the liar represent themselves falsely as endeavoring to communicate the truth. The success of each depends upon deceiving us about that. But the fact about himself that the liar hides is that he is attempting to lead us away from a correct apprehension of reality; we are not to know that he wants us to believe something he supposes to be false. The fact about himself that the bullshitter hides, on the other hand, is that the truth-values of his statements are of no central interest to him; what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to report the truth nor to conceal it. This does not mean that his speech is anarchically impulsive, but that the motive guiding and controlling it is unconcerned with how the things about which he speaks truly are."
- Harry Frankfurt, On Bullshit
I'm not saying you need to quote Frankfurt, but beyond racist impulses that all old people get, do you think your parents care about basic honesty? Did they raise you to have those principles, whatever your political views happen to be?
Maybe ask that question of them — "Did you raise me to be truthful?" — and push them to ask that of themselves.
If they take a long, hard look at Trump as a person, do they get a sense that he is really on the level with them — or with anyone?
Can they vote for someone who is effectively a used car salesman, and do so with a clear conscience, knowing the job of President holds millions of lives in the balance?
posted by a lungful of dragon at 3:09 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would think the numerous white supremacists endorsing him would give pause to any reasonable person.
posted by O9scar at 3:14 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by O9scar at 3:14 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
You might point out that, until recently, the Trump Campaign website featured NOT ONE POLICY POSITION. It now lists ONE: Immigration "Reform." What, really, is Trump's plan for governing? (Hint: he doesn't have one.)
You might ask if it bothers them that "white power" shout-outs were heard during much of Trump's pep rally in Alabama and whether they really want align themselves with racists.
You also might ask them if they're comfortable with a man as president of the United States, the commander-in-chief of the most powerful military on earth, who licenses this kind of language to promote mattresses:
Trump is a name synonymous with the upscale lifestyle, superior quality and success of Donald Trump and his world-renowned empire. Now, you can enjoy Trump luxury in your own home with our all-new Trump Home® iSeries® mattress collection featuring Serta’s exclusive hybrid technology.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 3:20 PM on August 27, 2015
You might ask if it bothers them that "white power" shout-outs were heard during much of Trump's pep rally in Alabama and whether they really want align themselves with racists.
You also might ask them if they're comfortable with a man as president of the United States, the commander-in-chief of the most powerful military on earth, who licenses this kind of language to promote mattresses:
Trump is a name synonymous with the upscale lifestyle, superior quality and success of Donald Trump and his world-renowned empire. Now, you can enjoy Trump luxury in your own home with our all-new Trump Home® iSeries® mattress collection featuring Serta’s exclusive hybrid technology.
posted by Short Attention Sp at 3:20 PM on August 27, 2015
Without getting into Trump in particular, more the anti-immigration thing, there may be some points in here that might hit home: What everyone gets wrong about "anchor babies".
Maybe starting with a talking point from there, rather than attacking their candidate, would work?
(and I understand the motivation to change their minds: my immediate reflex is that someone who votes for Trump is pretty much a terrible person, and I'd hate to think that of my parents.)
posted by gaspode at 3:36 PM on August 27, 2015
Maybe starting with a talking point from there, rather than attacking their candidate, would work?
(and I understand the motivation to change their minds: my immediate reflex is that someone who votes for Trump is pretty much a terrible person, and I'd hate to think that of my parents.)
posted by gaspode at 3:36 PM on August 27, 2015
To be honest, you should really spend some time thinking about whether you even want to have this conversation with your parents at all. People tend to generally dig in and double down on their opinions when they feel they are being attacked. It is just not worth it.
There have been many recent studies that show that when people are presented with the facts that refute their argument, they just blow right past them.
You would have a greater effect overall by contributing money to a candidate or a cause of your choice. Something like, every time they mention Trump, you send five bucks to Oxfam.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
There have been many recent studies that show that when people are presented with the facts that refute their argument, they just blow right past them.
You would have a greater effect overall by contributing money to a candidate or a cause of your choice. Something like, every time they mention Trump, you send five bucks to Oxfam.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't buy into a family politics fight you can possibly avoid, imo. There's a very small chance he's going to amount to anything, so I'd just put it on hold, make it clear you don't want to talk about him; 'ma, he really annoys me - can we talk about something else?' and put it aside.
Then come back to the thread in November if he hasn't been long-knifed by the Big Money Crew.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:41 PM on August 27, 2015
Then come back to the thread in November if he hasn't been long-knifed by the Big Money Crew.
posted by Sebmojo at 3:41 PM on August 27, 2015
I think that his policies, insofar as they have been clarified, are silly and simpleminded. Let's take the wall on the border.
First, that will only stop people who enter the country illegally. It will do nothing about those who enter the country legally and then overstay their work/student/travel visa. What percentage is that? Perhaps as high as 50%. A wall won't stop that. It can't.
Second, where are you going to build it? Ranchers need to get their cattle to the Rio Grande. They will not tolerate being blocked from the river. And we are talking about huge herds of cattle. You can't just funnel them through a little door.
Third, Mexico will pay? No, they won't. Why should they?
This may sound like nit-picking, but I think it's important. He has a grand idea to solve a problem that can't be implemented and wouldn't work if it could.
His foreign policy is about being tough. Tough with China. Tough with Iran. Tough. What would he, specifically, want to do with China beyond just being tough? Trade war? That's not going to be good for the US. We are still emerging from the great recession. China is not just going to back down in the face of our awesomeness and do what we ask. They are their own country with their own needs and they have other trading partners. They won't just roll over and accept trade sanctions unless they get something from it. Why should they?
He's suggested that we just seize oil fields in Iraq. Seriously? That would require a massive troop mobilization and can you imagine the Pan-Arab backlash? ISIS would target "our" oilfields in force. If we are lucky it would just be another Gulf War. If we are unlucky it could be WWIII.
He has great sound-bites, but he lacks any form of nuance. His ideas are all about American kicking ass and we can do it because we are America. There's no real concept that the other parties to our ass kicking might not want to get their asses kicked and actually can do something about it.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:46 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
First, that will only stop people who enter the country illegally. It will do nothing about those who enter the country legally and then overstay their work/student/travel visa. What percentage is that? Perhaps as high as 50%. A wall won't stop that. It can't.
Second, where are you going to build it? Ranchers need to get their cattle to the Rio Grande. They will not tolerate being blocked from the river. And we are talking about huge herds of cattle. You can't just funnel them through a little door.
Third, Mexico will pay? No, they won't. Why should they?
This may sound like nit-picking, but I think it's important. He has a grand idea to solve a problem that can't be implemented and wouldn't work if it could.
His foreign policy is about being tough. Tough with China. Tough with Iran. Tough. What would he, specifically, want to do with China beyond just being tough? Trade war? That's not going to be good for the US. We are still emerging from the great recession. China is not just going to back down in the face of our awesomeness and do what we ask. They are their own country with their own needs and they have other trading partners. They won't just roll over and accept trade sanctions unless they get something from it. Why should they?
He's suggested that we just seize oil fields in Iraq. Seriously? That would require a massive troop mobilization and can you imagine the Pan-Arab backlash? ISIS would target "our" oilfields in force. If we are lucky it would just be another Gulf War. If we are unlucky it could be WWIII.
He has great sound-bites, but he lacks any form of nuance. His ideas are all about American kicking ass and we can do it because we are America. There's no real concept that the other parties to our ass kicking might not want to get their asses kicked and actually can do something about it.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 3:46 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I keep running into Americans here in Hong Kong who don't like a thing about Trump's policies or positions, but who express a kind of admiration for him for "telling it like it is" . Sort of like "Yeah, he'd probably make a bad president, but it's so nice to have someone running who isn't a professional politician." I don't think many of these folks will actually vote for him, but they admire him for being different.
I think Trump should be viewed as a kind of reaction against the political establishment. That's an emotional stance, and not a rational one. If you really want to talk to your parents about Trump, listen from that point of view, and find out why they like him. Then you can gently lead the discussion back around to the facts. It's easier to listen if someone feels like you see what they see in a candidate.
posted by frumiousb at 4:02 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think Trump should be viewed as a kind of reaction against the political establishment. That's an emotional stance, and not a rational one. If you really want to talk to your parents about Trump, listen from that point of view, and find out why they like him. Then you can gently lead the discussion back around to the facts. It's easier to listen if someone feels like you see what they see in a candidate.
posted by frumiousb at 4:02 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
To answer, I'd talk about how Trump is a liar: he says things that he knows are false just to manipulate voters.
I'd talk about how he's a bullshit artist at the most fundamental level: he's not that rich. Michael Bloomberg is a billionaire; the various Walton spawn are billionaires; Trump is good at acting how people think billionaires act.
He is the last great American Shyster. He is a combination of a cosplay Robber Baron and a cosplay Snake Oil Salesman. Now, there's an equally rich tradition of Americans being taken in by grifters, fraudsters, mountebanks and charlatans, and if your parents want to be part of that, then so be it.
posted by holgate at 4:42 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd talk about how he's a bullshit artist at the most fundamental level: he's not that rich. Michael Bloomberg is a billionaire; the various Walton spawn are billionaires; Trump is good at acting how people think billionaires act.
He is the last great American Shyster. He is a combination of a cosplay Robber Baron and a cosplay Snake Oil Salesman. Now, there's an equally rich tradition of Americans being taken in by grifters, fraudsters, mountebanks and charlatans, and if your parents want to be part of that, then so be it.
posted by holgate at 4:42 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ask them to explain their opinions & shut up & listen. Then ask but I don't understand why a someone pro choice .. . union . .. whatever. . . would pick someone so against those things, could you explain to me why you still think he's a good choice. The "trick" is to not appear aggressive or sarcastic or anything but genuinely interested in why. But you bought me up to believe x & now you are supporting the opposite POV why is that? sort of thing not YOU ARE WRONG.
The idea being in having to actually rationally present their points of view, they have to think about what they believe. Asking a leading question or 2 doesn't hurt, but can take skill to not be obvious so be very careful if you do, again the idea is not to judge or argue but to get them thinking about why they think what they think.
If worse comes to worst you haven't changed their minds but now know more about why they think the way they do and may have planted a seed or two of doubt. Remember confrontation & telling someone they are wrong is just going to make them more stubborn. As others have said I think he's the Michelle Bachman etc of this election, he makes for sound bites on the news at a point in the election process that is usually boring as hell to report on.
posted by wwax at 4:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
The idea being in having to actually rationally present their points of view, they have to think about what they believe. Asking a leading question or 2 doesn't hurt, but can take skill to not be obvious so be very careful if you do, again the idea is not to judge or argue but to get them thinking about why they think what they think.
If worse comes to worst you haven't changed their minds but now know more about why they think the way they do and may have planted a seed or two of doubt. Remember confrontation & telling someone they are wrong is just going to make them more stubborn. As others have said I think he's the Michelle Bachman etc of this election, he makes for sound bites on the news at a point in the election process that is usually boring as hell to report on.
posted by wwax at 4:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Tell them to listen to his interviews with Howard Stern. He comes off as a) sexist b) a moron c) a liar.
posted by AppleTurnover at 5:33 PM on August 27, 2015
posted by AppleTurnover at 5:33 PM on August 27, 2015
I nth that (a) there is ZERO point in arguing with Republican parents (Which is what yours are now, really), and (b) this is not an argument you need to have unless he makes it as the top candidate.
I feel your pain-I'll always remember my mom's "But I thought George Bush was FOR stem cell research!"-but there's just no getting through that sort of thinking, especially if they're ignoring all logic and reason, which they seem to be doing.
At this point he's reminding me of Perot--making a big show, looking "fresh" compared to the old 'n stale politicians--but that will wear off.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:50 PM on August 27, 2015
I feel your pain-I'll always remember my mom's "But I thought George Bush was FOR stem cell research!"-but there's just no getting through that sort of thinking, especially if they're ignoring all logic and reason, which they seem to be doing.
At this point he's reminding me of Perot--making a big show, looking "fresh" compared to the old 'n stale politicians--but that will wear off.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:50 PM on August 27, 2015
Remember that trying to talk people out of things based on hard facts often doesn't work; you might just cause them to double down in their conviction. What is it about Trump that they like? Can you explain why you think that those elements don't make sense for the country?
And yes - damaging your relationship with your parents over this isn't worth it. Please be careful not to hurt their feelings.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And yes - damaging your relationship with your parents over this isn't worth it. Please be careful not to hurt their feelings.
posted by Going To Maine at 5:53 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would memorize a bunch of Trump's particularly vile statements and ask your parents what they think of them. I think even Republicans have a hard time getting behind him calling a breatsfeeding mother "disgusting" and his "I like people who weren't captured" thing about John McCain. (He's the first dude who ever made me want to rush to the defense of a shit like McCain. When you're a bigger shit than McCain, you are really king of the shits.)
It shouldn't be hard to find 5-10 statements from Trump that are simply indefensible. How do your parents defend them?
But. It's not impossible that like a lot of people your parents are just amused by Trump's bloviating alpha male schtick and if pressed they would admit he'd be a terrible president. It's also possible that there's no way you can budge them on this and they'll just have to figure it out for themselves. Be prepared for this be a Subject We Do Not Discuss. It sucks, but it happens. They're your parents, and maintaining ties is probably more important than agreeing about politics.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:18 PM on August 27, 2015
It shouldn't be hard to find 5-10 statements from Trump that are simply indefensible. How do your parents defend them?
But. It's not impossible that like a lot of people your parents are just amused by Trump's bloviating alpha male schtick and if pressed they would admit he'd be a terrible president. It's also possible that there's no way you can budge them on this and they'll just have to figure it out for themselves. Be prepared for this be a Subject We Do Not Discuss. It sucks, but it happens. They're your parents, and maintaining ties is probably more important than agreeing about politics.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:18 PM on August 27, 2015
Couldn't you just show them how Trump was a wrestler in wrestlemania?
[link]
Or would that make them like him more?
posted by gregjunior at 7:55 PM on August 27, 2015
[link]
Or would that make them like him more?
posted by gregjunior at 7:55 PM on August 27, 2015
I disagree with a lot of the above. The way Trump speaks in simple, declarative statements is appealing to a lot of people. Don't discount that. Actual politics is really fucking hard and complicated—simplicity is a respite. Don't attack Trump; show how your preferred party does shit better. Talk is one thing, results are another.
Regardless of whether you support this or not, Obama has deported far more people who entered the US undocumented than Bush did. The stock market tends to perform better during Democratic presidencies than Republican. And job creation tends to be higher during Democratic presidencies than Republican.
Please MeMail me if I can provide any additional help.
posted by JackBurden at 8:33 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Regardless of whether you support this or not, Obama has deported far more people who entered the US undocumented than Bush did. The stock market tends to perform better during Democratic presidencies than Republican. And job creation tends to be higher during Democratic presidencies than Republican.
Please MeMail me if I can provide any additional help.
posted by JackBurden at 8:33 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think you have to start with figuring out/asking outright why they like him. Then being pretty explicit in breaking those things apart and presenting them with the actual reality of what he stands for.
posted by Toddles at 9:29 PM on August 27, 2015
posted by Toddles at 9:29 PM on August 27, 2015
Do your parents live in a swing state? If not, then it may not actually matter very much who they vote for. My parents live in a solidly blue state and vote for crazies all the time. I've learned to make peace with it at this point.
posted by Nematoda at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Nematoda at 8:15 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Find some outrageous quotes. Put them in an E-mail message, attributing them to someone else.
Then when they agree, tell them the quotes are actually from Donald Trump.
Frankly, the man is doing God's work. He is a time bomb in the GOP.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:43 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Then when they agree, tell them the quotes are actually from Donald Trump.
Frankly, the man is doing God's work. He is a time bomb in the GOP.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:43 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
One of the things Trump constantly does is say nothing when questioned. He speaks words but he doesn't actually answer the question. He made claims about evidence he had about Obama's real birth certificate for example, or in the New Yorker article linked above we have this:
He was asked, “You keep saying that there’s a danger, but crime along the border is down. What danger are you talking about?”
Trump gave a tight, concerned nod. “There’s great danger with the illegals, and we were just discussing that. But we have a tremendous danger along the border, with the illegals coming in.”
“Have you seen any evidence here to confirm your fears about Mexico sending its criminals across the border?”
Another grave nod. “Yes, I have, and I’ve heard it, and I’ve heard it from a lot of different people.”
“What evidence, specifically, have you seen?”
“We’ll be showing you the evidence.”
“When?”
He let that one pass.
It's always about trust me, I know, I'll prove it later, but he never or seldom does. Everything is vague but he'll let you know that he's handling some sort of inevitably bullshit big deal so don't worry.
Maybe answer any questions your parents ask you Trump style, by not actually answering them but assuring them you know best and you have the evidence.
Or talk about that person that seems to be at every workplace that does fuck all all day, comes in late all the time, fucks up regularly, but is such a schmoozer with upper management (and is often in lower management moving up of course) that they get away with it while everyone else is judged by and held to a different standard because Trump is all that in the worst possible way.
posted by juiceCake at 2:25 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
He was asked, “You keep saying that there’s a danger, but crime along the border is down. What danger are you talking about?”
Trump gave a tight, concerned nod. “There’s great danger with the illegals, and we were just discussing that. But we have a tremendous danger along the border, with the illegals coming in.”
“Have you seen any evidence here to confirm your fears about Mexico sending its criminals across the border?”
Another grave nod. “Yes, I have, and I’ve heard it, and I’ve heard it from a lot of different people.”
“What evidence, specifically, have you seen?”
“We’ll be showing you the evidence.”
“When?”
He let that one pass.
It's always about trust me, I know, I'll prove it later, but he never or seldom does. Everything is vague but he'll let you know that he's handling some sort of inevitably bullshit big deal so don't worry.
Maybe answer any questions your parents ask you Trump style, by not actually answering them but assuring them you know best and you have the evidence.
Or talk about that person that seems to be at every workplace that does fuck all all day, comes in late all the time, fucks up regularly, but is such a schmoozer with upper management (and is often in lower management moving up of course) that they get away with it while everyone else is judged by and held to a different standard because Trump is all that in the worst possible way.
posted by juiceCake at 2:25 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I haven't bumped into any younger people (40's and below) who support Trump, even out of some of the conservative people I know. However, I have been hearing of many from my parents generation as well that are supporting him. The support cannot really be on issues, because Trump hasn't supplied any real substance on issues at all- immigration being the singular exception. I don't think you can talk policy with your folks and try and steer them away with that angle because they aren't choosing Trump for his policies. You have to blow up this notion that Trump isn't a politician. He is a politician- one that just hasn't gotten elected yet. He has all the worst qualities of a politician in hyper amounts. Many aren't seeing that right now; only a fantasy.
posted by incolorinred at 11:17 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by incolorinred at 11:17 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by xris at 1:09 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]