Should we stay or should we go now?

August 17, 2015 8:54 PM

My boyfriend and I currently live in NYC. We hate it - we're tired of the noise, the garbage, the tiny apartments and the high prices for nearly everything. But we're considering having a baby in the next few years, and both our families are nearby - should we stay for family support or move to a location where we would likely be happier?

My boyfriend and I both grew up in NYC, and both have been itching to move for years. Medical school, residency, and numerous relationships and family issues have generally kept us in the tri-state area, though we keep swearing it's not forever. I was actually out in California for a year on my own, which I enjoyed, but needed to come back - now, together, we're seriously contemplating leaving again. We would love to move somewhere with more fresh air, wide open spaces, mountains, and outdoor opportunities... we're thinking about New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming, and maybe even Alaska. We would love to have skiing, hiking, kayaking, etc., right in our backyard. We both ride motorcycles and would love to do so more regularly, but not the in the chaos of NYC. Whenever we go out West, or even upstate, we're happy, and dread having to come back to the city. We're both physicians so work isn't a problem - jobs are plentiful in these areas - and the salary to cost-of-living ratio would actually be far more favorable in these states. Should be a no-brainer, right? Well...

The problem is this: We're deeply in love, approaching our mid-30's, and are seriously considering trying to get pregnant in the next year or two. Both of our families are nearby (mine is in NJ and his is in Brooklyn, where we currently live). I'm worried about having a baby far away from family support, as well as the, I guess, unfairness of moving their first grandchild to another state. Neither of our parents would be thrilled if we moved. We do both love our families and get along well with them, but honestly feel stifled and claustrophobic in NYC. We've thought about moving to upstate NY, and this is likely where we'll eventually end up, but both of us have a strong yearning to live in other parts of the country first before finally settling down upstate.

What do you think we should do? Move now, before we even start trying to get pregnant? Have the baby and move when the child is 1-2 years old (so 3-4 years from now?), once we've gotten the hang of the whole parenting thing? Move somewhere closer, like upstate NY? Please help - all sage wisdom would be appreciated, especially from those who have made a similar move!!

posted by nightdoctress to Human Relations (28 answers total)

What about just moving up to the Hudson River Valley, or the rural parts of NJ or the empty bits of Connecticut near Danbury?

The grandparents could take the train to all of these places! And there's hiking and motorcycling and enough of a population to need doctors...

Move. But not too far. Also, if it must be NYC, hop the tram over to Roosevelt Island and see if that's quiet enough for you. ditto city island, and those bits of the Bronx that are suburban.
posted by slateyness at 8:58 PM on August 17, 2015 [7 favorites]

Yes, move upstate! I've been considering this myself. Great, affordable old houses, walkable towns, and NYC is only an hour or two away.
posted by three_red_balloons at 9:00 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

Vermont!
posted by ReluctantViking at 9:14 PM on August 17, 2015 [1 favorite]

Could you take a year in a big open western state and then come back for babytimes closer to home but not necessarily back in the city? I'm not sure you're going to love the reality of Wyoming or Alaska long term after a while. But this way you'll know if you do or not and then can decide.
posted by vunder at 9:15 PM on August 17, 2015 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Vunder - we've thought about this. We're planning a big motorcycle trip next summer, NYC --> Alaska --> Seattle, which will take about 8 weeks... our lease on our Brooklyn apartment is up in July and we're deciding whether to give up the apartment and then see where we end up after the trip... or keep the apartment (the safer option??) We could also rent upstate for a year or two and see how we like it, but somehow that feels much less adventurous than packing up and moving out west! Are we just being unrealistic?
posted by nightdoctress at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2015

Seconding upstate - Hudson and the area around there is lovely, inexpensive, and two hours by train outside of the city. Even if upstate is too far, there are huge swaths of Brooklyn and Queens a bit further out where you can have an honest-to-god house and space for not too much money. You'll need to be pretty far out from Manhattan/central Brooklyn, but you'll still be on the subway.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:25 PM on August 17, 2015

Response by poster: Slateyness - thanks for the suggestions! We've thought about all of that... one key priority is to be very close to great skiing, as i'm currently working on becoming a ski patroller/ ski doc :D, a huge dream of mine... not to mention that we'd love an acre or two of land for our current (and future!) dogs, which is only possible far upstate.
posted by nightdoctress at 9:25 PM on August 17, 2015

Response by poster: One more thing to note... we're liberal/hippie Jews and would definitely love a place that's both outdoorsy AND where we would fit in culturally...
posted by nightdoctress at 9:28 PM on August 17, 2015

So, my husband and to a lesser extent I felt this way about Los Angeles before we had our kid. But like you, our families were in Socal and we figured we could make it work. We opted to move to a bigger place in a quieter neighborhood. Then the kid arrived, our house was robbed, our commutes went from stupid to nightmare-stupid with the addition of a daycare dropoff, and long story short, before she was a year old we'd bought a place in Washington.

I kind of wish we'd moved before we had her, because moving with her was a huge pain. Along with looking for new jobs and a new house, we also had to make sure she had daycare, and househunting trips were a drag. And I feel like my parents got used to having us around and still grump at us for moving their granddaughter away from them. Which, I can't say I blame them, I probably would too.

I'm not sure what my cautionary tale is meant to inspire you to do...I guess just be prepared for the idea that "shit that sucks but we're willing to put up with it" might turn into "shit we are no longer willing to countenance" when you throw an infant into the mix. If you think there's any chance of that happening, really really consider moving before you procreate.
posted by town of cats at 9:29 PM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]

Best answer: You can get an acre or two of land without going too far upstate (depending on your definiton of 'far'). You can get a pretty big house in, e.g., Ulster or Columbia County with a few acres for under $300,000 and still be two hours outside of the city. A few cities up there (Hudson specifically, but Kingston too) have been getting an influx of ex-city dwellers who are moving for pretty much the same reasons you are, so while it's not Brooklyn you may find you fit in more than you'd expect.

This site has a ton of listings around there if you want to get a feel for what's out there. I found it via random Google, so I can't make any guarantees to the quality or accuracy of the stuff listed there.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:34 PM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm from NYC and lived abroad and I'm now a weather refugee living in LA. I wilderness backpacked and kayaked and sailed all over before reaching LA....

Yes please! Hudson River Valley!!

Let's just say that now with a 4 year old son, I'm miserable out West and yearn for camping that doesn't feature Mountain Lions and wildfires. Like, where I went camping the last two weeks just outside of LA is effing on fire right now. So this week I'll have to compromise and find somewhere else to go. And both weeks past I knew I was risking getting caught up on a mountain by fire.... With the draught, animal attacks are kinda a worry. And everywhere outside of LA feels like an episode of Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy just because it's weird and unfamiliar (even after 14 years out here) and I get sketched out from time to time.

I've had lots of great adventures out here (hot springs in the desert are AWESOME!!) but I miss green and familiarity. It's not ideal for bringing up children. I'm from lower Manhattan in the 80's, and like, the crime in my current neighborhood (WeHo) freaks me out. It's supposed to be nice, but to my eye, pretty much all of SoCal is trashy.

You should definitely come back West if that's what your heart tells you, but have an escape plan. Once you have children, you're going to want your kids to have what you had growing up, and those things are not available here. And I don't think the benefits that are available here are worth it. Even though I liked it well enough before becoming a parent. I did not think having a child would impact my view of LA quite so negatively, but holy toledo!! Having a child really threw the "wild west" experience into stark contrast for me.

That's my two cents. FWIW.
posted by jbenben at 9:47 PM on August 17, 2015 [5 favorites]

unfairness of moving their first grandchild to another state
"
If you feel like this would cause family issues that you want to avoid, move now. Tell the families you are moving temporarily "while you have time before you start your own family". It's none of their business what your planned pregnancy schedule is, and who knows, sometimes it takes longer than you planned on anyhow. Move back whenever you like.

Plenty of grandparents find that they are happy to travel and help out, perhaps yours will or perhaps not.

everywhere outside of LA feels like an episode of Breaking Bad or Sons of Anarchy just because it's weird and unfamiliar

I live in New Mexico and can assure you that day-to-day life bears very, very little resemblance to Breaking Bad, despite some of the filming locations being recognizable.
posted by yohko at 11:12 PM on August 17, 2015 [4 favorites]

Best answer: I've been struggling with a similar question. Live in NYC, love nature and the feel of out west but every immediate family member lives within a few hours of the city and we're planning kids soon.

We did an exercise we found in what color is your parachute. You each independently write out what you did and didn't like about every place you preciously lived. Than using that list and other things if they are relevant, you create a ranked criteria of the top 5 of so things you want in a city. We wanted family, friends, a good airport (for work), great outdoors, and some cultural diversity.

Once you have your ranked list and your partner has his, you create a merged rank list just by alternating from your top 2-3 items each.

Then you literally rate future cities on those point criteria. For us, no matter how much we love nature, nyc always wins bc the other criteria. So now we prioritize going to parks or beaches on the weekends and having nature vacations.

I'll say the other thing is watching friends raise kids without grandparents (and not having any myself as a kid) has convinced me how much easier it would be to have family nearby. Yes to help but also to create tons of family memories.
posted by neematoad at 3:18 AM on August 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

the empty bits of Connecticut near Danbury

Just for anyone else who uses this question as reference: You need to go further out to get to the "empty." I live about twenty minutes further out, and it's still more suburban than rural at that perimeter.
posted by gnomeloaf at 5:21 AM on August 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

the empty bits of Connecticut near Danbury

Clarification: I meant a bit north or east of Danbury or even north/West of Waterbury, and the definition of "empty" for me was a) empty compared to Manhattan and b) to you can get a couple of acres for not a lot of money (not Darien or Greenwich prices!) and still have a 20-40 min drive to a metro north train for the grandkids. I live up in this neck of the woods as well off the waterbury line and would say it is "empty" compared to when I lived in NYC and pleasantly populated with enough amenities as compared to when I lived in Vermont, which was too empty for me after living in Manhattan and I don't advise.
posted by slateyness at 5:54 AM on August 18, 2015

Check out the Skylands region of northwest NJ.
posted by amro at 6:16 AM on August 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

We just moved from NYC to Northeast Florida in part because raising our daughter in NYC without any family nearby and without oodles of riches was getting to be too much.* Now, my mom picks her up from day-care three days a week, and her aunt and uncle babysit from time to time, and it's awesome.

Others have offered great advice, but I wanted to add another consideration that I haven't seen raised yet: proximity to family is only meaningful from a "Oh God help us raise this kid" perspective if they're actually, like, really close. Two hours away by car does you no good when you need someone to pick your kid up from daycare on the fly, or you're desperate for a movie date with your partner, or whatever. If you're going to be heading two hours upstate, that's far enough away that grandparents in Brooklyn and much of Jersey are going to have a really tough time making the kinds of day-to-day and week-to-week contributions to your child's life that you seem to be concerned about. I'd strongly advise against being that far away from your folks if that's the image of family involvement that you're pursuing.

Whatever you decide, good luck! Having a kid is so hard but also really fun but also so hard. Get ready to spend a TON of time on this site trying to figure out exactly how you're messing everything up.

* Another reason was "Fuck Snow Forever." Being stuck inside a shoebox apartment with an antsy toddler is hell, both for you and the toddler.
posted by saladin at 6:36 AM on August 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

I think the question of where to move to is sort of a red herring. The real question is how much help with the baby you are going to want from your parents (and how much help they are going to be able to give).

We had our first child while living eight hundred kilometers away from both sets of grandparents, and with no local support network. I thought it was just about perfect. The grandparents flew down for a weekend or a week at a time over the first few months, stayed in a hotel, met our daughter, and even gave my wife and I the odd chance to get out of the house just the two of us.

But for weeks, and then months, at a time, it would be just my wife, myself, and the baby. It was really lovely and definitely helped us feel like we were our own family. Never having a babysitter was a small price to pay.

By the time we had our second child, we had moved back to the Toronto area, where both our extended families are. With baby #2, we had family coming by with food and toys and offers of help every other day for months. Even after her first birthday, we were still fielding multiple requests per week for grandparents to come over and help us make lunch on sundays, or for our kids to meet their cousins at the park, or what-not.

And not to say that all of that wasn't appreciated, because it absolutely was. But personally, I found it exhausting. For me, having my mother-in-law come over to my house to make lunch is more tiring than just making lunch myself, even when the baby is screaming. But I know that for other people, like my sister for example, all that help and support is an integral part of what they want and need with a new baby.

So, what I'm saying is, you can absolutely raise a baby by yourself far from your support network. It's not that hard and, in some ways, might even be easier. You just need to ask yourself which of the two scenarios above sound more ideal for your own personalities.

(And frankly, don't trick yourself into thinking that somewhere 200km away from your parents is a lot closer than somewhere 600km away. I've done both, and you end up seeing them roughly the same amount. And they won't be able to help you in a baby emergency either way.)
posted by 256 at 6:53 AM on August 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

If it weren't for the skiing requirement, I'd recommend western MA in a heartbeat (the ski slopes there are, uh, "cute"). Particularly in the Northampton area, there's a great mix of the things that make NYC great (restaurants, museums, etc.) but right next to nature. PLUS, it's a ~3 hour drive from NYC. For me, that's really the perfect distance from family. Close enough that they can come up and visit a fair amount, but far enough away that we can get a bit of space at times.

I've lived in western MA, coastal CT, and NYC before settling where we are now in southern VT. The downhill skiing certainly isn't as good up here as it is out west (great cross country skiing, though), but there are good ski opportunities nearby, particularly if you're willing to go further north into VT. Depending how far north you go in VT, that would take you a bit further from your families, but it's still a drivable distance from the NYC metro area.

As someone who moved out of NYC right before our first child was born, I highly recommend it. One of the things that I used to always say about living in NYC was that, while you had 15 Thai restaurants within a 5 block radius, you had to do some serious research and planning if you wanted to buy a mop. It may seem small and trivial, but the ability to drive to a supermarket where you know they'll have ample parking can become surprisingly important when your kid gets their first fever and you realize you don't have any infant's ibuprofen. There are certain practical challenges to living in NYC that become more acute and annoying when you have a kid. Trying to potty train while riding the subway? Nope! Nope! Nope!

Sure, we miss all of the great cultural things that NYC has to offer, but the ability to live in a decent-sized house not right on top of our neighbors, to have a backyard to play in and, you know, to have actual space to move around in and be close to nature have more than made up for what we lost. Plus, we get to go and do all of those great cultural things when we go down to visit our family that lives in the NY area.
posted by Betelgeuse at 9:35 AM on August 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Check out the Skylands region of northwest NJ.

This one was only one line, but don't ignore it. You say you're from NJ, but a lot of people from NJ aren't aware of what the NW part of the state is. Cute small towns, farmlands, and big wilderness areas. You have to go a lot further up into NY (and pay the "I'm not NJ" price hike) to get something similar. I live closer to the city in NJ, but if you can make it work job wise to be further out there's some beautiful areas.

I think it's worth considering if you value having grandparents near by (which you really should). We live about an hour and a half from our nearest grandparents, and the ease of weekend visits has been great. Closer would be better, but the other grandparents are half a country away and we see them twice a year period.
posted by malphigian at 10:06 AM on August 18, 2015

"We just moved from NYC to Northeast Florida in part because raising our daughter in NYC without any family nearby and without oodles of riches was getting to be too much.* Now, my mom picks her up from day-care three days a week, and her aunt and uncle babysit from time to time, and it's awesome.

Others have offered great advice, but I wanted to add another consideration that I haven't seen raised yet: proximity to family is only meaningful from a "Oh God help us raise this kid" perspective if they're actually, like, really close."

Yes yes yes. My two sisters and I and our parents all live within a half hour's drive of each other. We almost never pay for babysitting and my parents are often available to pitch-hit for backup childcare/sick days/snow days/etc.

This is *incredibly* valuable. I can't give any advice on where, exactly, you should live, but if you have a good relationship with both/either sets of parents, it's a huge, huge help to have them around - especially in the first few years, when raising a kid is really physically draining, but also when they get older and have school stuff that's hard to juggle. I have friends with no family nearby and it's really hard for them to keep all the plates spinning - or it's not hard, but it's very pricey.

It's something to consider. But it does depend on your relationship with your parents/in-laws. My parents are excellent parents and grandparents and I'm thrilled they have a part in raising my kids. If they were jerks, then I probably would feel differently.
posted by sutel at 11:49 AM on August 18, 2015

I'm very biased, as I spent nearly a decade in a big east coast city before moving to Colorado with my husband and having a baby shortly thereafter. I had definitely hit that claustrophobic, can't-enjoy-the-good-parts-of-the-city-anymore head space about a year before we moved. Four years on, we still look at each other spontaneously say, "I can't believe how happy I am, moving here is the best decision we ever made." If you love being outdoors and physical activities, don't underestimate what a huge plus it will be living in a place that makes it easy to integrate that into your lifestyle. My husband bike-commutes our kid to daycare! I went hiking every day of maternity leave after my OB cleared me for exercise! We go up to the mountains on a whim for the weekend with our toddler! I remember it being so much work and planning to be outside in nature where we lived before, and now it's so easy.

In terms of kid considerations, I grew up in Colorado and my husband on the west coast, and for us it was a pretty big deal to live in a place with a less competitive, less intensive parenting culture. For me that would weigh equally with wanting my kids to grow up near their extended family, although I think that's very much a thing where people's mileage varies. Just something to consider, though.

Lastly, I feel like it's common for people to say how critical it is to have family support when you have small children, but my experience has been that having disposable income can make up most (not quite all) of what family would provide. (This is not something I feel like people talk about and I'm fairly uncomfortable writing about it under my long-time handle, but I try to be honest about all things parenting, so.) It has been very rare for us to feel like we need more support than what we're getting through our excellent (and pricey) regular child-care supplemented by sitters as needed. Yes, we pay $90 a day for back-up care when our kid's regular center is closed, which is annoying but financial feasible. FWIW, during the period of time when my in-laws lived in town and were hypothetically available for those sorts of things, I ended up taking off way more time from work because they saw themselves as doing a favor for us and we'd have to work around their schedule in ways that rarely lined up perfectly with a workday. It's honestly so much easier (albeit more expensive) in terms of childcare logistics to not have family so close that would be offended by us hiring a sitter for date night or back-up care.
posted by iminurmefi at 12:26 PM on August 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Move to Minneapolis: it has plenty of outdoorsy stuff combined with a well-cultured urban population. As a former New Yorker, I love the quality of life here. Yes, cold winters, but humans adapt and the schools are good here.
posted by senterstyle at 2:13 PM on August 18, 2015

we're liberal/hippie Jews and would definitely love a place that's both outdoorsy AND where we would fit in culturally...

Consider Ithaca, NY. Finger lakes, cross country skiing, art, food, lovely college town vibe. And only 4ish hours from NYC.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:19 PM on August 18, 2015

One more thing to note... we're liberal/hippie Jews and would definitely love a place that's both outdoorsy AND where we would fit in culturally...

So, do NOT move to Alaska.
posted by The Noble Goofy Elk at 5:27 PM on August 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

We've thought about moving to upstate NY, and this is likely where we'll eventually end up, but both of us have a strong yearning to live in other parts of the country first before finally settling down upstate.

You can always change your mind.

My husband and I did three long distance moves together, two of them cross-country, in five years. Like you, we are fairly employable, and like you (I'm guessing), the financial cost of moving wasn't a huge deal. Looking back, moving itself was much less stressful than living in places where we no longer wanted to be.

Things that made moving easier, which we had varying degrees of control over: No children. No buying or selling of houses. One vehicle (shipped it for the first move, drove it for the second and third). Not much stuff (just enough to fill a storage pod). My husband's company had an office everywhere we moved, so he was able to transfer and I was the only one job searching. We had a cat for two of the three moves, but she was reasonably portable.

In contrast, my sister-in-law's family moved from the east coast to Colorado and then back home a few years later. They had a toddler (born before the original move), had bought a house in CO that needed to be sold, bought a house to move back into that ended up needing a ton of work and wasn't ready when they got back, and had to manage a couple of vehicles, a couple of cats, and a whole lot of stuff. It was very stressful.

If you decide to go west, that's very doable, even if you don't end up staying long. If you decide to move upstate, it's beautiful and there are places that desperately need doctors. Either way, doesn't sound like NYC is the place for you anymore.
posted by orangejenny at 6:21 PM on August 18, 2015

Response by poster: Thank you all for the replies - lots of options to contemplate!!! I don't see us anywhere in NJ (I lived there during high school and college and am NEVER going back, property taxes be damned), plus the skiing is a must... so I think upstate NY it is!! We'll take a look at Western MA as well, though that may be a bit too far away to buy a "permanent" home. Thanks again for the suggestions - I can always count on the MeFi community! Lots of love to you all.
posted by nightdoctress at 11:48 PM on August 18, 2015

One more thing to note... we're liberal/hippie Jews and would definitely love a place that's both outdoorsy AND where we would fit in culturally...

So, do NOT move to Alaska.


Hi! I'm a hippy, liberal Jew and I live in Alaska! I say totally move here. There's a small but thriving Jewish community, and a larger progressive community. The current mayor of Anchorage is a liberal Jew.

As physicians you could almost certainly get an amazing relocation package and fantastic salary/benefits.

Tons of people move up here without family, so friendships often turn into pseudo-family relationships.

If it's your dream, why not give it a try? If you hate it you can always move somewhere else!
posted by charmcityblues at 11:55 PM on August 22, 2015 [1 favorite]