Feminism for Gay Men
March 14, 2015 9:47 AM
As a gay man, I've been having increasing problems with sexual harassment from complete strangers while out at gay bars. When this harassment happens in front of friends, I'm treated like I'm crazy for being upset. What are some clear and direct ways I can communicate my own discomfort and just how inappropriate what happened was - to people who are completely ignorant of feminism and women's issues and have bought into the toxic idea that we should be grateful for any attention we get?
More and more frequently, I've been in situations where a complete stranger will come up to me and try to grab my ass, try to stick their hands under my shirt, or just out and out grab my crotch. This happens regardless of whether I am by myself or among a group of people. When I'm in a group, the people I'm with witness it, but never do anything in response other than try to change the subject. At 6'4 and almost 200 lbs, I feel comfortable responding directly to the unwanted attention. This can be really cathartic because most gay men aren't used to being called out for shitty behavior and flounder horribly while trying to find a comeback.
But I'm feeling increasingly isolated by my friends and the community in general. Even when the harassment happens right in front of them, I'm told that "I'm overreacting," "I'm making them feel uncomfortable [by escalating]," "what do I have against being touched?," "I should just take the compliment," and, when I point out how often this is happening, that "I should stop bragging."
I've tried to explain that the attention is unwanted, that it's not a compliment, that the harasser isn't trying to flirt - they just want to take as much as they can before they move on. But none of these arguments seems to get through. I've tried to bring it up outside of the bars to friends, assuming that if I'm experiencing this, just about everyone must. But I'm frequently told that I'm the only one with this issue. I doubt this means I'm the only one experiencing this - maybe others just aren't registering it as an issue.
I want to feel comfortable in the bars that are supposed to be my safe space. And I want to figure out how to make other gay men understand why this behavior isn't something that I should want or even tolerate. Please don't respond with "find new friends" or "don't go to gay bars." Neither of those are helpful suggestions and I'd rather work to improve the situation I'm in rather than being chased away by the harassers.
More and more frequently, I've been in situations where a complete stranger will come up to me and try to grab my ass, try to stick their hands under my shirt, or just out and out grab my crotch. This happens regardless of whether I am by myself or among a group of people. When I'm in a group, the people I'm with witness it, but never do anything in response other than try to change the subject. At 6'4 and almost 200 lbs, I feel comfortable responding directly to the unwanted attention. This can be really cathartic because most gay men aren't used to being called out for shitty behavior and flounder horribly while trying to find a comeback.
But I'm feeling increasingly isolated by my friends and the community in general. Even when the harassment happens right in front of them, I'm told that "I'm overreacting," "I'm making them feel uncomfortable [by escalating]," "what do I have against being touched?," "I should just take the compliment," and, when I point out how often this is happening, that "I should stop bragging."
I've tried to explain that the attention is unwanted, that it's not a compliment, that the harasser isn't trying to flirt - they just want to take as much as they can before they move on. But none of these arguments seems to get through. I've tried to bring it up outside of the bars to friends, assuming that if I'm experiencing this, just about everyone must. But I'm frequently told that I'm the only one with this issue. I doubt this means I'm the only one experiencing this - maybe others just aren't registering it as an issue.
I want to feel comfortable in the bars that are supposed to be my safe space. And I want to figure out how to make other gay men understand why this behavior isn't something that I should want or even tolerate. Please don't respond with "find new friends" or "don't go to gay bars." Neither of those are helpful suggestions and I'd rather work to improve the situation I'm in rather than being chased away by the harassers.
I feel like way, way too many gay men either do or experience this, and it needs to be stopped. It's why I still have problems accepting myself at 25 years of age, even though I've known since I was ten. You say you don't want to be told to find new friends, but really, that's the only way. The harassers need to see a united front if they're ever going to maybe consider for a second that this absorbed cultural norm about hypersexual behavior doesn't just come with the gay "territory". The more of a weak link you can present in the face of their crappy worldview, the faster this goes away.
posted by marsbar77 at 10:12 AM on March 14, 2015
posted by marsbar77 at 10:12 AM on March 14, 2015
But also- intellectual musings aside- yes, this is absolutely assault and should, in many cases, be escalated to the point of getting the police involved. No one would say otherwise if this were a heterosexual guy feeling up a heterosexual woman- it should be no different here.
posted by marsbar77 at 10:14 AM on March 14, 2015
posted by marsbar77 at 10:14 AM on March 14, 2015
I want to feel comfortable in the bars that are supposed to be my safe space.
And I want to figure out how to make other gay men understand why this behavior isn't something that I should want or even tolerate.
I think these are two separate goals that probably require different approaches. I also think the first will be easier than the second.
As a hetero woman I'm not super familiar with gay bar culture, but you surely can't be the only gay guy who doesn't like being groped by strangers. This is just assault, no? I think repeatedly being firm and clear about your personal space boundaries is all you can do. Can you talk to a bartender/bouncer if you need? And I would keep your responses to this behavior limited to "I don't like that. Don't do that to me." rather than getting too much into the harassers' motives. It's not relevant. If your friends respect you they will respect your personal boundaries. They may never "understand" your view, but seeing it in action repeatedly may make it more clear.
I'm also not really clear on the "feminism" framing of this question. I mean, sure, feminism deals a lot with personal/private boundaries with respect to bodies, but I don't know if that is a necessary connection for the kind of issues you're dealing with. Are you thinking that will help make your argument more clear with your friends? I mean, it might, but "feminism" is such a loaded word these days, it might make your task of changing the culture even harder.
posted by pantarei70 at 10:17 AM on March 14, 2015
And I want to figure out how to make other gay men understand why this behavior isn't something that I should want or even tolerate.
I think these are two separate goals that probably require different approaches. I also think the first will be easier than the second.
As a hetero woman I'm not super familiar with gay bar culture, but you surely can't be the only gay guy who doesn't like being groped by strangers. This is just assault, no? I think repeatedly being firm and clear about your personal space boundaries is all you can do. Can you talk to a bartender/bouncer if you need? And I would keep your responses to this behavior limited to "I don't like that. Don't do that to me." rather than getting too much into the harassers' motives. It's not relevant. If your friends respect you they will respect your personal boundaries. They may never "understand" your view, but seeing it in action repeatedly may make it more clear.
I'm also not really clear on the "feminism" framing of this question. I mean, sure, feminism deals a lot with personal/private boundaries with respect to bodies, but I don't know if that is a necessary connection for the kind of issues you're dealing with. Are you thinking that will help make your argument more clear with your friends? I mean, it might, but "feminism" is such a loaded word these days, it might make your task of changing the culture even harder.
posted by pantarei70 at 10:17 AM on March 14, 2015
As a woman in the public sphere in general and as one who has gone to bars and clubs a lot and typically has received gross "attention" like this, all I can recommend is shaming the harasser and ignoring your friends' rude and unsupportive comments. It's awful when a clear assault happens and people around you act like you should be thankful.
I do better when I adopt a stone cold bitch/don't fuck with me vibe. The vibe can be off putting to others, but it does cut down on unwanted attention.
Men feeling entitled to touch and grope the bodies of others with no invitation or consent is a cultural thing that is very hard to undo. Trying to raise the consciousness of those around you is a fairly fruitless pursuit in this context. I've found that directing my energy into trying to reduce the incidents by changing how I hold myself and what kind of vibe I put out is moderately effective.
posted by quince at 10:18 AM on March 14, 2015
I do better when I adopt a stone cold bitch/don't fuck with me vibe. The vibe can be off putting to others, but it does cut down on unwanted attention.
Men feeling entitled to touch and grope the bodies of others with no invitation or consent is a cultural thing that is very hard to undo. Trying to raise the consciousness of those around you is a fairly fruitless pursuit in this context. I've found that directing my energy into trying to reduce the incidents by changing how I hold myself and what kind of vibe I put out is moderately effective.
posted by quince at 10:18 AM on March 14, 2015
To be clear, my question is more about how to have these conversations with my friends than how to handle the harassment itself.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:26 AM on March 14, 2015
posted by C'est la D.C. at 10:26 AM on March 14, 2015
The amount of het women who do those sorts of things to me is unbelievable. Het men, lesbians and most gay guys don't do it. It's 99% straight women who seem to think that finding out I'm gay is an invitation to sit in my lap and question me about my sex life and engage in other shockingly rude behaviours. You are absolutely not alone in being made uncomfortable by this kind of thing.
If your friends have a problem with you calling people out on their inappropriate behaviour, then that's your friend's problem. When they say you're overreacting, tell your friend that you're entitled to react however you want. When they say that you're making your harasser feel uncomfortable, say "good". Even ask your friends why they're supporting your harasser more than you. Or why they care about how you're reacting - your reaction doesn't affect them at all since it's not aimed at them. If you know they're not going to be supportive, then just don't bring it up with them and react as you see fit. If your friends don't like the fact that you're asserting yourself, well that's tough.
With regards to making your harassers understand why it's not OK, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle. Most people tolerate it because most people either tolerate it or actively like it. It becomes part of the etiquette of a group to behave in a given way when that group allows or encourages a certain behaviour. All you can realistically do is call people out on it when it happens. The people who do it are unlikely to stop completely because one person has a problem with it, especially if "everyone else is doing it".
posted by Solomon at 10:29 AM on March 14, 2015
If your friends have a problem with you calling people out on their inappropriate behaviour, then that's your friend's problem. When they say you're overreacting, tell your friend that you're entitled to react however you want. When they say that you're making your harasser feel uncomfortable, say "good". Even ask your friends why they're supporting your harasser more than you. Or why they care about how you're reacting - your reaction doesn't affect them at all since it's not aimed at them. If you know they're not going to be supportive, then just don't bring it up with them and react as you see fit. If your friends don't like the fact that you're asserting yourself, well that's tough.
With regards to making your harassers understand why it's not OK, you're going to be fighting an uphill battle. Most people tolerate it because most people either tolerate it or actively like it. It becomes part of the etiquette of a group to behave in a given way when that group allows or encourages a certain behaviour. All you can realistically do is call people out on it when it happens. The people who do it are unlikely to stop completely because one person has a problem with it, especially if "everyone else is doing it".
posted by Solomon at 10:29 AM on March 14, 2015
I think the underlying (wrong) stereotypes at play in the context of a straight man groping a woman and a gay man groping another gay man are slightly different; I think women's consent is considered irrelevant ("Women aren't supposed to want sex anyway") while men's consent is considered always present ("He's a guy, of course he wants all the sex all the time with anyone who's willing"). So I wonder if talking to your friends about why that stereotype is harmful -- it's pretty much the flipside of "all gay men are predators," for one thing -- would be a better starting point than linking it explicitly to harassment or assault of women. (Not because they're not linked, but just because your friends might be more open to that argument.)
I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's not right.
posted by jaguar at 10:48 AM on March 14, 2015
I'm sorry this is happening to you. It's not right.
posted by jaguar at 10:48 AM on March 14, 2015
This is a tricky one. Hop into a time machine to 20 years ago. Gay men showing interest in other men is something likely to get them harassed and possibly assaulted. Go to the police and you could get arrested for being a sodomite. Gay bars were one of the few places where men could show sexual interest in each other and only have to worry if the bar got raided by the police (which they did). Gay bars are built around sex. Sex is either happening when people leave the bar or in a back room of the bar. There is a culture of touching to show interest and it is as old as gay bar themselves.
That is why I think this issue is fundamentally different than the sort of harassment women face everywhere. The larger culture is almost completely hostile to women and they need a safe space from that. For gay men, the larger culture is hostile towards showing direct interest in sex and the gay bar is a safe space for that. It is often icky and is a violation, but it is also part of what we sign up for when we enter. Thankfully, some gay bars are less sex oriented than others. More so now than ever before. The clubs, dives and kink bars will always be full of gropers. The best we can do is politely tell them to fuck off, repeat offenders without the politeness.
posted by munchingzombie at 12:07 PM on March 14, 2015
That is why I think this issue is fundamentally different than the sort of harassment women face everywhere. The larger culture is almost completely hostile to women and they need a safe space from that. For gay men, the larger culture is hostile towards showing direct interest in sex and the gay bar is a safe space for that. It is often icky and is a violation, but it is also part of what we sign up for when we enter. Thankfully, some gay bars are less sex oriented than others. More so now than ever before. The clubs, dives and kink bars will always be full of gropers. The best we can do is politely tell them to fuck off, repeat offenders without the politeness.
posted by munchingzombie at 12:07 PM on March 14, 2015
Maybe you and like-minded pals can frequent other bars or restaurants, so they can see the difference and how much you prefer that sort of interaction?
Places that are meat/meet markets aren't going to attract customers who want light conversation and cocktails. Could you get friends to form a dining club or explore new places that aren't packed with others who are looking to get tossed and hook up? I understand that's not the answer you want, but other than telling random strangers to keep their paws to themselves (which I assume you're already doing) and making sure your companions understand you don't like being groped by strangers and to have your back, I'm not sure what else you can do. if you're a regular at a certain bar, maybe a word with the bartender or manager or your favorite server could be useful?
posted by Ideefixe at 1:01 PM on March 14, 2015
Places that are meat/meet markets aren't going to attract customers who want light conversation and cocktails. Could you get friends to form a dining club or explore new places that aren't packed with others who are looking to get tossed and hook up? I understand that's not the answer you want, but other than telling random strangers to keep their paws to themselves (which I assume you're already doing) and making sure your companions understand you don't like being groped by strangers and to have your back, I'm not sure what else you can do. if you're a regular at a certain bar, maybe a word with the bartender or manager or your favorite server could be useful?
posted by Ideefixe at 1:01 PM on March 14, 2015
I don't have this specific problem, but educating my casual friends on social justice issues usually comes down to "don't do x around me". It's a clear boundary, something that they can reasonably do, and if they want to engage with you more about it, they can. Maybe eventually from noticing their behavior they'll think differently about it, but don't hold your breath. If they don't respect your request after being prompted a few times, you have to drop them or put up with them, though. If they aren't willing to make a minor behavior change or be respectful of your views, you can't force them, you can only control whether you keep hanging out with them.
posted by momus_window at 4:00 PM on March 14, 2015
posted by momus_window at 4:00 PM on March 14, 2015
Are your friends saying this stuff in front of the people doing this to you? If they are they are not your friends at ALL. Putting you down in front of someone you've made clear you don't want assaulting you means these people do not have your back in much of anything- let alone these matters.
If they are at least taking you aside to say these things to you then it is possible that they are otherwise good friends but just so immersed in their belief system that they don't get it.
Either way THIS is a big problem: Even when the harassment happens right in front of them, I'm told that "I'm overreacting," "I'm making them feel uncomfortable [by escalating],
It is very common in abusive families (or even network circles) to blame the victim. In their view, when everyone goes to thanksgiving dinner and Bob punches Tom in the face for kicks- and tom has the audacity to stand up for himself- it's Tom's fault for "escalating" and making everyone at dinner feel uncomfortable. No one goes after Bob, because in their minds that's the way Bob is and it's his role in the circle to be the a-hole. It's Tom's job in the network circle to shut up and take it. Only if Tom fulfills his role in the network circle can everyone else eat their turkey in peace and move on with dinner. This is abusive behavior and it only encourages Bob to continue his antics. I've seen this sort of thing in friendship circles as well.
Your friends see that this makes you feel uncomfortable and yet they are blaming you for ruining THEIR fun. They are not worrying about you and only themselves. It's incredibly selfish of them whether they are good friends in other situations or not.
One way to discuss this with them is bringing up rape of men. Unfortunately when men in the gay community get raped and try to report it, they are often not taken seriously or even blamed by the officers because you know- they're gay so they should I dunno- expect it or something. With heterosexual men who get raped it's even worse because somehow a real man would "let" something like that happen to him- and police officers have literally been known to laugh in their faces when trying to report it. Explain to your friends that it is exactly this attitude that they have that reinforces these attackers and reinforces the horrible way the system often treats victims. There are abusive men out there that will see how your friends fight on the side of the abuser and will see that as a go-ahead to take the abuse further. That's not cool and maybe if you could give your friends the opportunity to think about that it might give them a better perspective.
posted by rancher at 6:14 PM on March 14, 2015
If they are at least taking you aside to say these things to you then it is possible that they are otherwise good friends but just so immersed in their belief system that they don't get it.
Either way THIS is a big problem: Even when the harassment happens right in front of them, I'm told that "I'm overreacting," "I'm making them feel uncomfortable [by escalating],
It is very common in abusive families (or even network circles) to blame the victim. In their view, when everyone goes to thanksgiving dinner and Bob punches Tom in the face for kicks- and tom has the audacity to stand up for himself- it's Tom's fault for "escalating" and making everyone at dinner feel uncomfortable. No one goes after Bob, because in their minds that's the way Bob is and it's his role in the circle to be the a-hole. It's Tom's job in the network circle to shut up and take it. Only if Tom fulfills his role in the network circle can everyone else eat their turkey in peace and move on with dinner. This is abusive behavior and it only encourages Bob to continue his antics. I've seen this sort of thing in friendship circles as well.
Your friends see that this makes you feel uncomfortable and yet they are blaming you for ruining THEIR fun. They are not worrying about you and only themselves. It's incredibly selfish of them whether they are good friends in other situations or not.
One way to discuss this with them is bringing up rape of men. Unfortunately when men in the gay community get raped and try to report it, they are often not taken seriously or even blamed by the officers because you know- they're gay so they should I dunno- expect it or something. With heterosexual men who get raped it's even worse because somehow a real man would "let" something like that happen to him- and police officers have literally been known to laugh in their faces when trying to report it. Explain to your friends that it is exactly this attitude that they have that reinforces these attackers and reinforces the horrible way the system often treats victims. There are abusive men out there that will see how your friends fight on the side of the abuser and will see that as a go-ahead to take the abuse further. That's not cool and maybe if you could give your friends the opportunity to think about that it might give them a better perspective.
posted by rancher at 6:14 PM on March 14, 2015
>But I'm frequently told that I'm the only one with this issue. I doubt this means I'm the only one experiencing this
I don't know how to talk to your friends, but did want to let you know you're not the only person who feels like this is clearly harassment. It was one of the main reasons I stopped going out to bars, or having much to do with the gay community in general. I don't like the feeling that people can do or say whatever they want to me and I don't have the right to say I don't like it.
I think part of the problem is that I come across as straight, so if I don't like overtly sexualized treatment it's taken as me being homophobic. The attitude seems to be that any criticism of any gay man's sexual expression is oppressing that man, even when he's violating someone else's rights. I'm not sure how to address that attitude, because to me it's really obvious that you're not allowed to touch someone in a sexual manner or make lewd comments about him unless you have really good reason to think he's cool with it. I'm not sure what the thought process behind that behavior is. But I did want to let you know you're not the only one who feels this way.
posted by sam_harms at 2:10 AM on March 15, 2015
I don't know how to talk to your friends, but did want to let you know you're not the only person who feels like this is clearly harassment. It was one of the main reasons I stopped going out to bars, or having much to do with the gay community in general. I don't like the feeling that people can do or say whatever they want to me and I don't have the right to say I don't like it.
I think part of the problem is that I come across as straight, so if I don't like overtly sexualized treatment it's taken as me being homophobic. The attitude seems to be that any criticism of any gay man's sexual expression is oppressing that man, even when he's violating someone else's rights. I'm not sure how to address that attitude, because to me it's really obvious that you're not allowed to touch someone in a sexual manner or make lewd comments about him unless you have really good reason to think he's cool with it. I'm not sure what the thought process behind that behavior is. But I did want to let you know you're not the only one who feels this way.
posted by sam_harms at 2:10 AM on March 15, 2015
Gay bars are not a 'safe space' for you or anybody. You might feel comfortable with the atmosphere and the feeling of being among like-minded people, but I can't think of a single place (other than maybe a crowded subway train) where strangers are more likely to violate your personal comfort zone. While they might have been historically thought of as safe spaces against homophobic/transphobic violence and hate crimes, they encourage the type of sexual harassment you're experiencing.
While it would be a terrific world if everyone in that environment respected your space and your fundamental right not to be touched, it's not going to happen. As previous commenters have noted, the social norms in gay bars have been built up over decades, and they do not change easily. Even suggesting to a friend who enjoys this setting that you have the same rights a woman in public has not to be catcalled/touched/harassed is likely to confuse them, leading to the responses you've illustrated. The guys you've previously called out are 'flounder[ing]' because your behaviour differs from that which the social setting has led them to expect.
You might be able to persuade your friends that it's a reasonable attitude, (and it is, totally) but it's still going to happen again and again and again, and make you all the more angry/unhappy for it. Without getting into an argument about the existence of gay ghettos, you and your friends can have a great time in any bar in your area, whether it's LGBT-friendly or not. It's 2015, not 1975; the potential for abuse/harassment solely on account of your orientation is nowhere near what it used to be.
posted by The Zeroth Law at 4:13 PM on March 15, 2015
While it would be a terrific world if everyone in that environment respected your space and your fundamental right not to be touched, it's not going to happen. As previous commenters have noted, the social norms in gay bars have been built up over decades, and they do not change easily. Even suggesting to a friend who enjoys this setting that you have the same rights a woman in public has not to be catcalled/touched/harassed is likely to confuse them, leading to the responses you've illustrated. The guys you've previously called out are 'flounder[ing]' because your behaviour differs from that which the social setting has led them to expect.
You might be able to persuade your friends that it's a reasonable attitude, (and it is, totally) but it's still going to happen again and again and again, and make you all the more angry/unhappy for it. Without getting into an argument about the existence of gay ghettos, you and your friends can have a great time in any bar in your area, whether it's LGBT-friendly or not. It's 2015, not 1975; the potential for abuse/harassment solely on account of your orientation is nowhere near what it used to be.
posted by The Zeroth Law at 4:13 PM on March 15, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:07 AM on March 14, 2015