Get your hands off my son!
February 2, 2015 6:45 PM
Our 2 year old son is intact. Today he saw a different pediatrician than normal. She tried to retract him. It ended with me physically removing her hands from him...
When I told her to stop trying to retract him the first time she halted and looked at me like I had lobsters crawling out my ears then continued anyway and told me she needed to check the opening. I said do not do that, stop touching him and she continued so I physically took her hands off of him and told her he has no urination issues and I put his diaper back on. I am speaking to the administrator of the office tomorrow. What should I expect? How do I keep my calm? I am furious.
When I told her to stop trying to retract him the first time she halted and looked at me like I had lobsters crawling out my ears then continued anyway and told me she needed to check the opening. I said do not do that, stop touching him and she continued so I physically took her hands off of him and told her he has no urination issues and I put his diaper back on. I am speaking to the administrator of the office tomorrow. What should I expect? How do I keep my calm? I am furious.
No offense to you, because clearly you are upset, but this was clearly a medical examination. It wasn't as if she was trying to touch your child inappropriately. In fact, Doctors can be held liable for omitting certain tests or examinations - even if it is at the adults request, because 95% of adults are not doctors and don't know the particulars of the physiology of the human body. Good luck with your chat with the administrator, but I doubt you'll get anywhere that will bring you "closure".
posted by tahu363 at 7:00 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by tahu363 at 7:00 PM on February 2, 2015
Why don't you call a nurse line or two (not affiliated with this medical provider) and ask them what they think is normal in an evaluation of this kind.
It's extremely hard to believe a pediatrician would attempt to harm or molest your child in front of you.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:06 PM on February 2, 2015
It's extremely hard to believe a pediatrician would attempt to harm or molest your child in front of you.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:06 PM on February 2, 2015
All of his prior pediatricians understood intact care and gave me valuable information on his care and that have even confirmed that forcibly retracting the foreskin can cause permanent damage. I doubt this would be a case for being held liable for omitting this test. I am not calling molestation here. I am upset because a.) Retraction is not proper care and can cause permanent damage & b.) I had to tell her to stop 3 times and actually take her hands off of him.
We have never had this issue with other Dr's in this or our old practice.
posted by MayNicholas at 7:09 PM on February 2, 2015
We have never had this issue with other Dr's in this or our old practice.
posted by MayNicholas at 7:09 PM on February 2, 2015
This was also just a well child visit. Ok no more thread sitting. Sorry.
posted by MayNicholas at 7:12 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by MayNicholas at 7:12 PM on February 2, 2015
Our pediatrician told us NOT to retract the foreskin until at least 3yrs of age.
Write out your thoughts. Try to stay as calm as possible and try to get in touch with your previous pediatrician and get them in on the conversation.
How stressful! Good job for standing up for what you know is right!
posted by Swisstine at 7:15 PM on February 2, 2015
Write out your thoughts. Try to stay as calm as possible and try to get in touch with your previous pediatrician and get them in on the conversation.
How stressful! Good job for standing up for what you know is right!
posted by Swisstine at 7:15 PM on February 2, 2015
You would think pediatricians would know not to do that but it seems like a lot of them don't. I'm sorry this happened but in my experience, it's a not atypical doctor error. Inform the office and present some research to the doctor. In my 23 years of parenting experience with an uncircumcised child, I've learned that a LOT of pediatricians don't know not to do this. Moving forward, if you ever bring your son in to another doctor, make sure you tell them not to do that before they start the exam. I'm glad your son is okay; nice job stepping up!
posted by kinetic at 7:18 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by kinetic at 7:18 PM on February 2, 2015
Folks, the issue is not a fear of molestation or conducting a necessary part of a physical examination. The issue is that the foreskin is rarely going to be retractable in a boy this young. It is painful and potentially damaging.
MayN, I am very sorry that this happened. I think before you go into your meeting, have a concrete idea of the remedy you want. For example, to make sure that the practice no longer retracts foreskins. If you go in without a remedy in mind, there's a risk that you will end up venting and not being as constructive as you would want to be. I think it would also be helpful to talk with your regular pediatrician before speaking with the office administrator because he/she will have a good idea of how best to deal with such matters. Also, the office administrator is probably not going to be a doctor, so you will probably get more mileage out of speaking with your regular pediatrician in any event.
Good luck and good work, mom.
posted by Tanizaki at 7:20 PM on February 2, 2015
MayN, I am very sorry that this happened. I think before you go into your meeting, have a concrete idea of the remedy you want. For example, to make sure that the practice no longer retracts foreskins. If you go in without a remedy in mind, there's a risk that you will end up venting and not being as constructive as you would want to be. I think it would also be helpful to talk with your regular pediatrician before speaking with the office administrator because he/she will have a good idea of how best to deal with such matters. Also, the office administrator is probably not going to be a doctor, so you will probably get more mileage out of speaking with your regular pediatrician in any event.
Good luck and good work, mom.
posted by Tanizaki at 7:20 PM on February 2, 2015
This sucks and you have every right to be angry. However - if your son is OK, I'd focus on that in order to remain calm when you speak with the administrator.
This thread from a few years ago may be helpful.
posted by bq at 7:36 PM on February 2, 2015
This thread from a few years ago may be helpful.
posted by bq at 7:36 PM on February 2, 2015
Just a question to ponder (you don't have to answer in thread): are you sure that his foreskin cannot be retracted? Some 2 year olds do have retractable foreskins. If she was just going to gently check to see if it was retractable rather than forcibly retracting it, I wouldn't see that as problematic behavior. I wasn't there so it is hard to say whether what she did was appropriate or not, it is clear you were very upset and I'm unsure whether you were just afraid she was going to try to use force and the communication was poor, or she was actually handling him roughly and that was why you were upset.
Gently checking to see whether the foreskin is retractable would cue her whether or not to discuss hygiene issues with you. A friend of mine just had a pediatrician appointment for her 2 year old at which the doctor noted that his foreskin was retractable and advised her that she should be taking the necessary measures to keep it clean.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:43 PM on February 2, 2015
Gently checking to see whether the foreskin is retractable would cue her whether or not to discuss hygiene issues with you. A friend of mine just had a pediatrician appointment for her 2 year old at which the doctor noted that his foreskin was retractable and advised her that she should be taking the necessary measures to keep it clean.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 7:43 PM on February 2, 2015
I understand why you're upset and I think you have every reason to be upset.
But I'm confused by your going to the administrator. Does the administrator have any authority over the doctor? Typically it's the doctor who owns the practice and hires the admins. They can't do much but make appointments and file paperwork. They don't really know medical things. I can't imagine they're going to have any authority to tell the doctor how to examine patients. At most they can relay your complaint to the doctor, but I think for that purpose you're better off speaking to the doctor yourself.
I assume there's a reason you left your previous pediatrician, but if you don't want to just switch back to them, and you left on good terms (e.g. you just moved to the other side of town or something and it's nothing personal) could you maybe ask them to recommend someone new?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:48 PM on February 2, 2015
But I'm confused by your going to the administrator. Does the administrator have any authority over the doctor? Typically it's the doctor who owns the practice and hires the admins. They can't do much but make appointments and file paperwork. They don't really know medical things. I can't imagine they're going to have any authority to tell the doctor how to examine patients. At most they can relay your complaint to the doctor, but I think for that purpose you're better off speaking to the doctor yourself.
I assume there's a reason you left your previous pediatrician, but if you don't want to just switch back to them, and you left on good terms (e.g. you just moved to the other side of town or something and it's nothing personal) could you maybe ask them to recommend someone new?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:48 PM on February 2, 2015
My God, the OP clearly explained in the post that it was necessary to tell the doctor to stop repeatedly and that the doctor kept ignoring him/her! The doctor even looked at him/her like a moron and just kept going!
Everything I know about foreskin and foreskin retraction I have learned in this thread. It is not necessary to know ANYTHING about that to know that this doctor's behavior was despicable. WHY COME UP WITH A DOZEN DIFFERENT DEFENSES FOR IT? At the moment the doctor was asked to stop, she should have stopped, and if desired had AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION about it. She could have said "why are you asking me to stop?", " I need to do this because it is this part of the test", "I am just testing the foreskin to see if it might retract", or whatever. None of these answers given negate in any way that this doctor behaved inappropriately and does not know how to communicate. If you can't communicate you should not be a doctor. Part of communication is listening. This parent was NOT treated with respect. Enough making excuses for shitty doctor behavior, even if we all know it regularly gets much worse than this.
posted by Blitz at 8:00 PM on February 2, 2015
Everything I know about foreskin and foreskin retraction I have learned in this thread. It is not necessary to know ANYTHING about that to know that this doctor's behavior was despicable. WHY COME UP WITH A DOZEN DIFFERENT DEFENSES FOR IT? At the moment the doctor was asked to stop, she should have stopped, and if desired had AN ACTUAL CONVERSATION about it. She could have said "why are you asking me to stop?", " I need to do this because it is this part of the test", "I am just testing the foreskin to see if it might retract", or whatever. None of these answers given negate in any way that this doctor behaved inappropriately and does not know how to communicate. If you can't communicate you should not be a doctor. Part of communication is listening. This parent was NOT treated with respect. Enough making excuses for shitty doctor behavior, even if we all know it regularly gets much worse than this.
posted by Blitz at 8:00 PM on February 2, 2015
+1 to the comment that the practice administrator is hired by and reports to the doctor(s).
You should:
1. Email the doctor an article about why retraction is not best practice at this age.
2. Take your business elsewhere, back to another practice or another doctor.
3. Write a negative Yelp or Zocdoc review for this doctor so there's a record of this for other parents.
Good for you for standing up for your son!
posted by amaire at 8:01 PM on February 2, 2015
You should:
1. Email the doctor an article about why retraction is not best practice at this age.
2. Take your business elsewhere, back to another practice or another doctor.
3. Write a negative Yelp or Zocdoc review for this doctor so there's a record of this for other parents.
Good for you for standing up for your son!
posted by amaire at 8:01 PM on February 2, 2015
The pediatrician you saw has had an awful lot of training in how to conduct a basic pediatric physical exam without hurting the child. I'm sorry she upset you, and in the sense that she didn't stop what she was doing when you asked her to the first time, she was in the wrong. But had you let her proceed I'm sure her examination wouldn't have hurt your kid.
posted by killdevil at 8:11 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by killdevil at 8:11 PM on February 2, 2015
I think that there are two issues - why she was retracting the foreskin, a practice which might be up for debate for the the physicians in the practice, and her refusal to stop a procedure when you asked her to, which isn't up for debate.It doesn't matter if no physical harm was going to come to your son. Respecting a patient's (or care givers) wishes is central to providing excellent care. This doctor failed to clear that bar. How are you supposed to foster a sense of trust needed to work with your pediatrician if you get the sense that she isn't listening to your concerns?
That said, I do think the suggestion thinking of a remedy that you want, is important. Do you want an apology? Do you want to understand the practice's position on foreskins? Think abut what outcome is positive for you.
But I would yelp this and put on any online doctor reviews. As a person searching for pediatricians, I'd want to know something like this.
posted by anitanita at 8:12 PM on February 2, 2015
That said, I do think the suggestion thinking of a remedy that you want, is important. Do you want an apology? Do you want to understand the practice's position on foreskins? Think abut what outcome is positive for you.
But I would yelp this and put on any online doctor reviews. As a person searching for pediatricians, I'd want to know something like this.
posted by anitanita at 8:12 PM on February 2, 2015
Speak with the Administrator and use notes if needed. Follow-up with a detailed letter requesting re-training of the doctor in the areas of patient/parent communication as well as proper care of intact infants and toddlers. I have a hunch if she had known what she was doing, she would have explained what she was trying to do (check whether the foreskin could retract on its own), but instead she gave you looks, essentially confirmed that she was trying to force retraction in order to "check the opening" and disregarded your concerns. You did the right thing. The practice should take this seriously.
posted by quince at 8:21 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by quince at 8:21 PM on February 2, 2015
If the doctor (or their office) is affiliated with a hospital system, complain to them--that can carry some weight. Also complain to your insurance company, if you used insurance.
posted by Violet Hour at 8:46 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by Violet Hour at 8:46 PM on February 2, 2015
I note that you said you physically removed her hands from your child. Did you actually grab the doctor? If so, I doubt the administrator will want to listen to anything you have to say unless you open by apologizing for reacting poorly, before you get to talking about best practices for uncircumcised children.
posted by corb at 9:27 PM on February 2, 2015
posted by corb at 9:27 PM on February 2, 2015
you did nothing wrong. you asked a couple of times and the doctor wouldn't stop. you were well within bounds to remove the doctor's hands from your child. i would figure out if she had a boss or if she owns the practice. if she has a boss let them know what happened. if she doesn't, find the sites where the practice is listed and let other parents know about your experience.
when you see a new pediatrician in the future, before the exam starts, make sure they know you're expectations on this issue.
posted by nadawi at 9:37 PM on February 2, 2015
when you see a new pediatrician in the future, before the exam starts, make sure they know you're expectations on this issue.
posted by nadawi at 9:37 PM on February 2, 2015
I am so sorry this happened to you, that's horrible.
To be honest with you, I would not talk to the administrator beyond telling him or her that you will be writing a letter and expect a written response. The reason for this is that you will be more calm, collected and on-point in a letter than you will on the phone.
I would simply write that you have two concerns:
1) Dr. Whoever's pediatric training on uncircumcised boys appeared to be alarmingly out of step with best practices as developed by organisations like the American Academy of Pediatrics, who's guidelines state:
"...foreskin retraction should never be forced. Until the foreskin fully separates, do not try to pull it back. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready can cause severe pain, bleeding, and tears in the skin."
In the same AAP publication, Care of the Uncircumcised Penis, they further state: "Most boys will be able to retract their foreskins by the time they are 5 years old."
2) When told to stop attempting to retract your two-year-old's foreskin, Dr. Whoever ignored your request first not to do that, second to stop touching your son's penis, and third your command that she stop touching him entirely. Absolutely none of that is acceptable, and a parent should never have to physically remove a healthcare practitioner from a child.
I would then insist that the practice provide you with a written statement of their policy on care for uncircumcised children under the age of 5 and an assessment of whether this doctor acted in accordance with that policy. I would also insist that they arrange for you to never see this doctor again, though I might also consider changing practices.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:38 PM on February 2, 2015
To be honest with you, I would not talk to the administrator beyond telling him or her that you will be writing a letter and expect a written response. The reason for this is that you will be more calm, collected and on-point in a letter than you will on the phone.
I would simply write that you have two concerns:
1) Dr. Whoever's pediatric training on uncircumcised boys appeared to be alarmingly out of step with best practices as developed by organisations like the American Academy of Pediatrics, who's guidelines state:
"...foreskin retraction should never be forced. Until the foreskin fully separates, do not try to pull it back. Forcing the foreskin to retract before it is ready can cause severe pain, bleeding, and tears in the skin."
In the same AAP publication, Care of the Uncircumcised Penis, they further state: "Most boys will be able to retract their foreskins by the time they are 5 years old."
2) When told to stop attempting to retract your two-year-old's foreskin, Dr. Whoever ignored your request first not to do that, second to stop touching your son's penis, and third your command that she stop touching him entirely. Absolutely none of that is acceptable, and a parent should never have to physically remove a healthcare practitioner from a child.
I would then insist that the practice provide you with a written statement of their policy on care for uncircumcised children under the age of 5 and an assessment of whether this doctor acted in accordance with that policy. I would also insist that they arrange for you to never see this doctor again, though I might also consider changing practices.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:38 PM on February 2, 2015
I know myself and I doubt I would have reacted any differently than you did, including physically removing the doctor's hands. You told her twice to stop what she was doing and she didn't. I believe you were justified in removing her hands from your child.
I recommend doing all or most of this in writing. Paper trails are good.
posted by cooker girl at 9:40 PM on February 2, 2015
I recommend doing all or most of this in writing. Paper trails are good.
posted by cooker girl at 9:40 PM on February 2, 2015
No means No. I'm pretty sure weather this is a clinical setting or not, the doctor was technically assaulting your son after you asked and then demanded that she stop. I feel duped even having to write that out - isn't it obvious? The parent/patient is in charge, this wasn't a medical emergency. Even in medical emergencies, patients and their guardians have rights.
I agree you should state everything in writing and ask that the office update their procedures.
I would never ever go to this office again, and you should not, either!
We blew off a pediatrician we disagreed with 2 years ago. We went a second time after the first visit was a minor disaster in terms of communication and bedside manner. The second visit was worse.
It doesn't get better. After you register your complaint, start fresh. Clean transactions. Clean transactions. Your son's healthcare relationships are worth the hassle. Plus, you'll be so much happier and confident with his caregivers.
posted by jbenben at 11:53 PM on February 2, 2015
I agree you should state everything in writing and ask that the office update their procedures.
I would never ever go to this office again, and you should not, either!
We blew off a pediatrician we disagreed with 2 years ago. We went a second time after the first visit was a minor disaster in terms of communication and bedside manner. The second visit was worse.
It doesn't get better. After you register your complaint, start fresh. Clean transactions. Clean transactions. Your son's healthcare relationships are worth the hassle. Plus, you'll be so much happier and confident with his caregivers.
posted by jbenben at 11:53 PM on February 2, 2015
I would print out the information from the American Academy of Pediatrics that DarlingBri mentioned above, together with the NHS comment that
"Most uncircumcised baby boys have a foreskin that won't pull back (retract) because it's still attached to the glans. This is perfectly normal for about the first two to six years...The foreskin of some boys can take longer to separate, but this doesn't mean there's a problem – it will just detach at a later stage. Never try to force your child's foreskin back before it's ready, because it may be painful and damage the foreskin."
And then I would attach them to a letter which said something like
"Dear Medical Practice X, I was disturbed during my young son's physical examination when Doctor Y began to retract my child's foreskin. Forcibly retracting the foreskins of young children is contrary to both the American Academy of Pediatrics' recommendation and the recommendation of the UK National Health Service, because it can cause physical damage. I asked the doctor to stop and she said "But I have to check the opening," and then continued to pull on his genitals. I asked a second time, and she continued to touch my child. At that point I physically removed her hands from my child.
This is a problem on two levels. First, retracting the foreskin to check the opening could cause damage and is against best practice. Second, it is unacceptable to continue with treatment when a child's guardian has withdrawn consent.
[State what you want here. Do you want them to tell you their policy on foreskin? On informed consent? Do you want an apology?]. Yours sincerely, MayNicholas
I think writing a letter is better. The doctor might read it, for one thing, and other doctors might too. It lasts longer. It doesn't involve you possibly getting all sweaty and distressed in the administrator's office. And it gives the medical office a moment to consider your point when they're not having a moment of actual face-to-face conflct.
Good luck! Your kid is lucky, he has a parent who's ready to stand up for his health. And if you write this letter it might help other kids too. :)
posted by feets at 12:03 AM on February 3, 2015
"Most uncircumcised baby boys have a foreskin that won't pull back (retract) because it's still attached to the glans. This is perfectly normal for about the first two to six years...The foreskin of some boys can take longer to separate, but this doesn't mean there's a problem – it will just detach at a later stage. Never try to force your child's foreskin back before it's ready, because it may be painful and damage the foreskin."
And then I would attach them to a letter which said something like
"Dear Medical Practice X, I was disturbed during my young son's physical examination when Doctor Y began to retract my child's foreskin. Forcibly retracting the foreskins of young children is contrary to both the American Academy of Pediatrics' recommendation and the recommendation of the UK National Health Service, because it can cause physical damage. I asked the doctor to stop and she said "But I have to check the opening," and then continued to pull on his genitals. I asked a second time, and she continued to touch my child. At that point I physically removed her hands from my child.
This is a problem on two levels. First, retracting the foreskin to check the opening could cause damage and is against best practice. Second, it is unacceptable to continue with treatment when a child's guardian has withdrawn consent.
[State what you want here. Do you want them to tell you their policy on foreskin? On informed consent? Do you want an apology?]. Yours sincerely, MayNicholas
I think writing a letter is better. The doctor might read it, for one thing, and other doctors might too. It lasts longer. It doesn't involve you possibly getting all sweaty and distressed in the administrator's office. And it gives the medical office a moment to consider your point when they're not having a moment of actual face-to-face conflct.
Good luck! Your kid is lucky, he has a parent who's ready to stand up for his health. And if you write this letter it might help other kids too. :)
posted by feets at 12:03 AM on February 3, 2015
Yeah, doesn't matter if they were retracting your son's foreskin or asking him to stick out his tongue and say 'ah'. You asked them to stop, then you told them to stop, and they didn't stop.
Make the discussion with the administrator follow those lines - 'I'm not here to talk about better practice foreskin medicine, I'm here to talk about a doctor who flat out ignored my request to stop touching my child in a particular way' - and you'll be fine.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 12:56 AM on February 3, 2015
Make the discussion with the administrator follow those lines - 'I'm not here to talk about better practice foreskin medicine, I'm here to talk about a doctor who flat out ignored my request to stop touching my child in a particular way' - and you'll be fine.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 12:56 AM on February 3, 2015
Oh and just for an inside perspective. I have a very good memory and remember a pediatrician doing this to me when I was little. It's not one of my happiest memories, actually it is a very decidedly uncomfortable one, and comes closest to molestation that I've ever been.
They ought to first ask, see?
(And I agree with those who think that a doctor who is so abysmally poor in communicating when actually prompted should be complained about because of that alone. And I very strongly disagree with those who think that it is inappropriate, in this very specific situation, to have removed the doctor's hands as you did. I can't even begin to say just how much I would have done the same, had this happened to my son)
posted by Namlit at 3:25 AM on February 3, 2015
They ought to first ask, see?
(And I agree with those who think that a doctor who is so abysmally poor in communicating when actually prompted should be complained about because of that alone. And I very strongly disagree with those who think that it is inappropriate, in this very specific situation, to have removed the doctor's hands as you did. I can't even begin to say just how much I would have done the same, had this happened to my son)
posted by Namlit at 3:25 AM on February 3, 2015
I had to intervene like this for my son over 40 years ago. I'm glad that at least some doctors today understand this issue. I don't have time to read all the comments above right now , has anyone else suggested sending this doctor some medical articles on this? I'd be happy to look for some for you- I'm a reference librarian.
posted by mareli at 5:46 AM on February 3, 2015
posted by mareli at 5:46 AM on February 3, 2015
Thank you for the informative responses. For the record, I was not rough with the dr when I removed her hands. I was remarkably calm. For one, I wasn't going to smack her hands away, lest she not let go of my son fast enough and risk harm to him. I picked her fingers off his penis the directed her hands away from his body and promptly closed his diaper. How should I have extricated him from her grasp without pulling him out from under her? I maintained my cool the entire time because my son was already very upset and I didn't want to frighten him further.
We saw a different pediatrician this time simply due to scheduling. Our regular one was is on vacation and I didn't want to wait for her return.
I don't see how retraction is up for debate when organizations like aap and NHS say not to pull it back.
This office is not affiliated with a hospital. I contacted the administrator because that is what some other moms have done here regarding the same dr. I wasn't sure who to speak with. This dr is not new to the practice, nor is she in charge. I like the idea of writing down my thoughts before speaking with the admin. I am really not sure what outcome I would like. I know I would like this dr informed of proper/ recommend intact care, I do not believe that I should do her research for her. I know I would like to know that this dr will also be disciplined in some way for disregarding my repeated requests to stop what she was doing. I have also contemplated filing a complaint with the state medical board, but I am waiting to see how they handle this in house.
I keep thinking of the what ifs: what if I had turned to put something in our bag and didn't see her doing that and she had ended up causing permanent damage, what if that happens to someone else's child, what if she introduced harmful bacteria and he gets an infection, the list goes on because I'm a mom.
posted by MayNicholas at 5:52 AM on February 3, 2015
We saw a different pediatrician this time simply due to scheduling. Our regular one was is on vacation and I didn't want to wait for her return.
I don't see how retraction is up for debate when organizations like aap and NHS say not to pull it back.
This office is not affiliated with a hospital. I contacted the administrator because that is what some other moms have done here regarding the same dr. I wasn't sure who to speak with. This dr is not new to the practice, nor is she in charge. I like the idea of writing down my thoughts before speaking with the admin. I am really not sure what outcome I would like. I know I would like this dr informed of proper/ recommend intact care, I do not believe that I should do her research for her. I know I would like to know that this dr will also be disciplined in some way for disregarding my repeated requests to stop what she was doing. I have also contemplated filing a complaint with the state medical board, but I am waiting to see how they handle this in house.
I keep thinking of the what ifs: what if I had turned to put something in our bag and didn't see her doing that and she had ended up causing permanent damage, what if that happens to someone else's child, what if she introduced harmful bacteria and he gets an infection, the list goes on because I'm a mom.
posted by MayNicholas at 5:52 AM on February 3, 2015
[Folks, this is a sensitive childcare question, so I understand concern, but we need to keep the thread to offering direct advice about how OP can calmly and effectively handle the situation now in terms of making a complaint rather than just having a general discussion and/or argument. Thanks.]
posted by taz at 6:13 AM on February 3, 2015
posted by taz at 6:13 AM on February 3, 2015
I'm not saying this to gin up further anger at the doctor or anything, but it is a pretty clear and widely known principle in medicine and law that continuing a procedure on a patient who (or whose representative) has withdrawn consent constitutes assault. It really doesn't matter how necessary the procedure is, once a patient withdraws consent, a procedure must be stopped as soon as it is safe to do so.
I don't think you acted at all unreasonably by calmly removing the hands of someone who was assaulting your child. This doctor needs, at the very least, to be retrained on the subjects of intact care itself but, probably more importantly, patient consent. You wouldn't be out of line to complain to her licensing body, and it is generous of you to consider holding off until you see how the practice handles it.
posted by katemonster at 6:58 AM on February 3, 2015
I don't think you acted at all unreasonably by calmly removing the hands of someone who was assaulting your child. This doctor needs, at the very least, to be retrained on the subjects of intact care itself but, probably more importantly, patient consent. You wouldn't be out of line to complain to her licensing body, and it is generous of you to consider holding off until you see how the practice handles it.
posted by katemonster at 6:58 AM on February 3, 2015
We had this same thing happen. I asked the doctor to stop and he looked at me funny and pulled again, and I said "I mean it, stop." He did. The next couple minutes were uncomfortable, and he wrote up a referral to see a urologist (I think) because "Since you didn't do it when you should have you're going to have to do it now." Needless to say, we didn't make that appointment and five years later all is well.
We were going to a large practice with 15 or so doctors. We called the office and asked that from now on that our boys be seen by a doctor familiar with uncircumcised kids. They accomodated and we didn't have any more trouble. Even doctors have old fuddy-duddies in their ranks, I guess. We would not have seen the same one again.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:53 AM on February 3, 2015
We were going to a large practice with 15 or so doctors. We called the office and asked that from now on that our boys be seen by a doctor familiar with uncircumcised kids. They accomodated and we didn't have any more trouble. Even doctors have old fuddy-duddies in their ranks, I guess. We would not have seen the same one again.
posted by the christopher hundreds at 8:53 AM on February 3, 2015
My son is intact, and at his well child checkups his doctor gently examines his foreskin to see if / how far it will retract, and has since he was about six months old. HOWEVER, if this is what your doctor was intending to do, then she should have stopped the minute you said something and talked to you about what she was planning to do and why it was important, and given you time to discuss your concerns. That's, like, medical consent 101.
I agree that the most important thing for you to do is to get clear on what outcome you desire. Do you want an apology from the doctor? An apology and an acknowledgment that she will change her practices in the future? Do you want a letter on file in your son's medical chart saying that he will not see her ever again? Not everything you want may be something that you're going to reasonably get, but until you have a clear idea of what would satisfy you, pursuing further action is not going to make much progress; you need a clear goal to be moving towards.
posted by KathrynT at 9:11 AM on February 3, 2015
I agree that the most important thing for you to do is to get clear on what outcome you desire. Do you want an apology from the doctor? An apology and an acknowledgment that she will change her practices in the future? Do you want a letter on file in your son's medical chart saying that he will not see her ever again? Not everything you want may be something that you're going to reasonably get, but until you have a clear idea of what would satisfy you, pursuing further action is not going to make much progress; you need a clear goal to be moving towards.
posted by KathrynT at 9:11 AM on February 3, 2015
Non Update update: The office still had not responded to me so I called again. I finally spoke with the admin. She said they have forwarded my complaint on to the quality control committee. Our regular pediatrician is on it and will be calling me on her lunch break. They "thought it would be helpful, given the nature of my complaint, to speak with a physician regarding this matter". I don't know how I feel about how this is going. Not even an apology from the administrator. Just a brush off and here's who's handling it. They have also removed my Facebook review which was just the facts of what happened and blocked me from their page. Not the end of the world of course, but leads me to believe that they may prefer to sweep this under the rug instead of addressing this with transparency.
posted by MayNicholas at 9:17 AM on February 3, 2015
posted by MayNicholas at 9:17 AM on February 3, 2015
MayNicholas: lar pediatrician is on it and will be calling me on her lunch break. They "thought it would be helpful, given the nature of my complaint, to speak with a physician regarding this matter". I don't know how I feel about how this is going. Not even an apology from the administrator. Just a brush off and here's who's handling it. They have also removed my Facebook review which was just the facts of what happened and blocked me from their page. Not the end of theAsk a lawyer to send them a letter, complaining about the assault-like manner in which the hospital employee acted. If it costs anything, it won't cost much - and the hospital will start taking your authority seriously.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:32 AM on February 3, 2015
i hate to say it, because you seem to like your regular doctor, but i think you'll need to find a whole new practice. they are not handling this properly and removing your review/blocking you/having a doctor talk with you instead of acknowledging that the doctor should have stopped touching your son on request, etc just makes it seem like this professional relationship cannot be salvaged. i would make clear to your doctor when they call why you will be switching practices.
posted by nadawi at 12:45 PM on February 3, 2015
posted by nadawi at 12:45 PM on February 3, 2015
Update update: I spoke with my former pediatrician who is a member of the quality control committee. She tried to convince me that all the doctors in the practice retract to examine the urethral opening and that they all just have different ways of doing it. I pointed out that I have never once seen her do that to my son. She again said that everyone has a different way of doing it. I said well put that aside and let's talk about the fact that the doctor did not stop when I told her to. She said that was not what the doctor said and the doctor said that she stopped as soon as I told her to. I told her that if that were the case we would not be having this conversation. My former pediatrician also said that she wishes I would have given them a chance to talk things over before putting things online in various places. Meaning my face book review. I said that I noticed they had removed my review and blocked me from their page and thought that was a dirty move on their part because parents have the right to know what happens at a particular practice especially when it deals with intact boys. Basically they will do nothing other than report what I have said to the committee. There was never an apology only she said /she said stories and excuses for why things were done the way they were. I guess I don't know what I really expected from them.
posted by MayNicholas at 12:56 PM on February 3, 2015
posted by MayNicholas at 12:56 PM on February 3, 2015
now you should find places online where the doctor/practice is listed that they don't have access to delete comments - like healthgrade, vitals.com, etc. stick to the facts, try to keep it from being overly emotional. i'd also see if there are groups or message boards that promote intact boys in your area and see if they have places to discuss doctors that do not know how to properly examine boys who are intact. at this point i would escalate it to the state licensing board as well.
you will not get an apology or acknowledgement that the doctor was wrong, but at least you can do your part to keep other mothers and sons from this same treatment.
posted by nadawi at 1:06 PM on February 3, 2015
you will not get an apology or acknowledgement that the doctor was wrong, but at least you can do your part to keep other mothers and sons from this same treatment.
posted by nadawi at 1:06 PM on February 3, 2015
MayNicholas, EVERYTHING you have described sounds like an irresponsible, unprofessional, and unfriendly clinic.
Find a better place!
posted by IAmBroom at 1:53 PM on February 3, 2015
Find a better place!
posted by IAmBroom at 1:53 PM on February 3, 2015
Yelp it. Other parents with intact boys want to know about your experience. Are you in any Mom's groups on FB? Everytime there's a request for a recommendation for a ped in the groups I am in, there's one woman who recounts her experience which was very similar to yours. And it's better word-of-mouth than the medical groups' own FB page.
Sorry that you and your son had to go through this. Fwiw, it sounds like you handled it with a lot of grace compared to what you must have been feeling.
posted by vignettist at 4:04 PM on February 3, 2015
Sorry that you and your son had to go through this. Fwiw, it sounds like you handled it with a lot of grace compared to what you must have been feeling.
posted by vignettist at 4:04 PM on February 3, 2015
I think DarlingBri nailed it. Your son is lucky to have you as an advocate. The remedy I would want, in addition, would be an apology, and an assurance that this physician will receive needed training. I understand your anger. I wouldn't want to see that doc again. But if the QC committee handles it accurately and respectfully, I would accept that, and let the anger abate.
posted by theora55 at 9:58 PM on February 3, 2015
posted by theora55 at 9:58 PM on February 3, 2015
Data point: in about a zillion states in the US you are more likely to get a unicorn with a rainbow antler growing out of its ass than you are to ever get an apology from a medical practitioner. That's because in many states, an apology is a potential admission of negligence or mal-practice. If that is the case in the state where this happened, take an apology off the list of things you might want because it will not happen.
FWIW a number of years ago a doctor incorrectly performed a procedure that put my life at risk and I ended up in the resuscitation unit in the ER. In my letter to the practice I asked for a practice-wide case review and re-training for the staff member. I got those things. I did not ask for an apology I knew I wouldn't get because they knew and I knew that would open them up to a law suit.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:07 AM on February 4, 2015
FWIW a number of years ago a doctor incorrectly performed a procedure that put my life at risk and I ended up in the resuscitation unit in the ER. In my letter to the practice I asked for a practice-wide case review and re-training for the staff member. I got those things. I did not ask for an apology I knew I wouldn't get because they knew and I knew that would open them up to a law suit.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:07 AM on February 4, 2015
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