GRRRRR! Love you, baby!

November 19, 2005 7:35 PM

How much should a person put up with in a relationship, angry-outburst-wise?

Me and boyfriend have been together 5 1/2 years. The first three years he was extremely depressed and angry. I took it, it was very painful, and I am still not quite sure why I put up with it. But at a certain point I made it clear that I would leave if shit didn't change. Since then, he has largely turned it around, but he will still snap at me sometimes.

When I say "snap at me," I mean that he will suddenly get quite loud and lash out in obvious and painful anger. He does not say things that are abusive, he does not hit me, but he does occasionally throw stuff (never at me). He broke his own bone by hitting a wall when he was angry at me once.

He is always very apologetic afterward, and he is good at storming off before he says stuff that is really hurtful and damaging.

But the anger when it comes is so real, and so frightening for me, that I feel physical pain when it happens. It injures me deeply, and sends me into a depression sometimes when it happens.

This happens with MUCH less frequency than it used to, because he has worked very hard at making it stop. But it has not gone away, and I am beginning to see that it never will.

Is a painful, angry outburst at a frequency of approximately once every 2.5 weeks (more frequently if there's stress in his life) something you would consider acceptable, when everything else in the relationship is peachy? What if you were thinking of having children with this person? What if you were not?

posted by anonymous to human relations (58 comments total)

ABSOLUTELY NOT. Are you kidding??? He throws stuff? No. No. No. No. Forget about children, what about you????

I guess that's my angry outburst for this 2.5 weeks.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:47 PM on November 19, 2005 [1 favorite]

Never.

DTMFA!
posted by Wet Spot at 7:52 PM on November 19, 2005

none of the behavior you mention is acceptable. throwing thingsat the wall is a short step from throwing things at you. not acceptable. look into getting outside help in leaving this particular relationship. It sounds like you live together. If you do, it may not be enough to move out, or ask him to do so. He has a history of violence and I don't have the statistics handy, but lots of people get hurt leaving abusive relationships.

I sense that not everything else in this relationship is peachy and that this man should never be allowed to act as a father to children, his own or others.

get out of his life.
posted by bilabial at 7:55 PM on November 19, 2005

I (a male) don't put up with this shit (from females). I haven't had to deal with anything quite this severe, thank God.

I don't find it impossible that he could change further, based on (1) his having changed some already and (2) an ex-gf's father changing for the better, slowly, after many years. But I worry that I'm being irresponsible in giving you hope where there may be none.

In your situation, I might imagine doing the following. Giving him an ultimatum, that he can have 5 more such outbursts before you're outta there. Then (if you have a hint when these outbursts are coming; you say "suddenly" but I bet you get some premonitions) when an outburst seems imminent, say "I think you're about to start screaming at me, and I'm going to take off right now unless you can assure me that that's not about to happen."

As I say, I haven't been in quite your situation, so I'm pulling this strategy out of my ass, and am ready to believe someone else will say "The exact opposite of Aknaton's terrible advice". Best of luck.
posted by Aknaton at 7:58 PM on November 19, 2005

How much should a person put up with in a relationship, angry-outburst-wise?

Only as much as they can sanely handle so that said person is not caused deep harm, be in mental, emotional or physical.


Is a painful, angry outburst at a frequency of approximately once every 2.5 weeks (more frequently if there's stress in his life) something you would consider acceptable, when everything else in the relationship is peachy?

No I would not accept this. Relationships should NOT be something where, are 5 1/2 years you're still experiencing this blowups.

What if you were thinking of having children with this person? What if you were not?

I would not want my children to grow up around such explosions. I would not want to be around such explosions. I would leave because I'm would be enabling this behavior if I stayed. If this person could not change after 5 1/2 years, then it ain't going to happen.

Finally, I say this to you, one human to another: Please leave and please visit a shrink to deal with mental wounds. Your post "sounds" very ragged and tired, like you've been through a war. I don't know you, but I know you're beautiful and no one deserves to do this to themselves.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:10 PM on November 19, 2005

Is it acceptable to YOU? Some people are OK with someone who burns that hot, but if his outbursts cause you "physical pain", this sounds like a VERY unacceptable situation for YOU. Having compatible "anger styles" is just as important as any other area of compatibility.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't want children around this, regardless of what I could handle. Even if he never directed this sort of rage at them (reserving it for you) it sounds like a recipe for grade school kids with high anxiety or even PTSD. (Children of war vets and holocaust survivors run a serious risk of "secondary PTSD" just from the anxiety, anger and unpredictability radiating off the affected parent; children of alcoholics--particularly "angry drunks"--similarly are often left anxious, depressed, and with an unhealthy compulsion to either "people-please" and/or suppress their own anger/emotions.)
posted by availablelight at 8:22 PM on November 19, 2005

If you want to stay with the guy, not just get encouragement from us to leave him, then it's a discussion for the two of you.

Why does he do this? When does he do this? Does he know when it's about to happen? Is he able to give you advance warning, or is it completely unpredictable, even to him? Does he know you feel that way when it happens? Does he know you're considering leaving him if it keeps happening?

What's your family history as regards violence, arguments, throwing things, yelling and screaming and dramatic exits? Not knowing much about you, this situation sounds like the very thing the term "co-depenency" was invented to describe.

I disagree with the idea that throwing things and punching walls is essentially the same as hitting another person, or even that it's likely to lead to it.

But if, when he's in pain, and under stress, he can't deal with it except in ways that make you feel terrible, something's got to give.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 8:22 PM on November 19, 2005

I wouldn't just bail. I'd recommend asking him if he will go to therapy and making it clear that this is not working for you. It sounds like this is causing you tremendous grief -- so the situation must change or end. If therapy isn't something he'll consider or if it doesn't work, leave. But only you can assess whether this anger will turn on you. I'd recommend a therapist for you, too, so that you can have an independent assessment of whether hitting walls is likely to turn into violence against you or your children. I am extremely senstive to spousal abuse, but I do not think hitting walls is the same as hitting people. I know several people who've put holes into walls and doors without ever laying a finger on anyone else.
posted by acoutu at 8:31 PM on November 19, 2005

I think this type of anger, once in a blue moon, would probably be OK with me. Not great or desirable, but I could manage.

Once every couple weeks? Definitely not OK. Not that he's necessarily a psychopath, or out of control -- I just wouldn't want to deal with that on a near-constant basis.

And I speak from a reasonable amount of experience. My ex, while never that violent, got pissed off often enough that I felt like my major contribution to the relationship had become *not* upsetting him. That's a major, major, major power imbalance. I decided that I never wanted another relationship whose dynamic was "managing my boyfriend's emotional life."

Children or no children, I have too much else in my life to give to someone to put up with that.
posted by occhiblu at 8:35 PM on November 19, 2005

While women withdraw and become sad when they're depressed, men often express depression in angry outbursts. Has he considered getting treatment?
posted by frykitty at 8:38 PM on November 19, 2005

hold on. what keeps you with him? what are the good parts?

it is never all or nothing. some of the best stuff comes with some not so good.
posted by subatomiczoo at 8:45 PM on November 19, 2005

I wouldn't put up with this kind of performance art on anything even approaching a regular basis, and definitely not every couple of weeks, let alone consider having children with this person (what kind of example is that for a child? What happens when he's not the centre of attention and a child is? What happens when he "can't control" himself when the child is being annoying, as children do?). He's an adult, he should act like one, and/or take whatever steps he needs to (therapy, medication, whatever) in order to be able to act like a civilized human being. This is either attention-getting behaviour or a self-control issue as far as I'm concerned, neither of these are things I'd feel comfortable exposing a child to, and neither of these are things which I feel speak well of this person's ability to carry on an adult relationship, let alone a parenting role. Civilized adults do not act like angry children, at least not the kind of civilized adult humans I'd spend time with.
posted by biscotti at 8:52 PM on November 19, 2005

I have some personal experience of this, if you should wish to email me.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 8:56 PM on November 19, 2005

Anger is a problem some people have more than others. We're all responsible for containing our anger, yet some are more predisposed to outbursts than others - which is to say that some people HAVE more anger to manage.

You can look at this as a kind of weakness or sickness, a flaw. You don't necessarily have to take anger personally. If you can change your perspective such that, when an outburst occurs, you see your partner as the victim of the anger inside him, then it might hurt you less.

If, on the other hand, you feel offended by the anger or hurt by the fact that he is doing this to you, then you've got the answer to your question.

Just as some people have more anger inside than others, some people can weather the anger of their loved ones better than others. Everybody has their breaking point. If your partner's behavior is past the point where you can step back from it and see it as his problem, then it's too much anger for you.

This is not a failing on your part. Not at all. Everyone has their limits, and we're all different. No one here can answer how much is too much for you. If you can manage not to take the anger personally, then it's manageable. If not, then he's over your line. It's for you to decide.
posted by scarabic at 8:57 PM on November 19, 2005

You didn't mention this, but if you find yourself not doing things because you fear triggering his outbursts, then you are allowing his temper to control your life. That's profoundly unfair.

While acknowledging that he's improved, you can also let him know that his temper still frightens you and you want him to seek help so that you can both live happier lives together. If he refuses, you have to decide what comes next. Even if he won't get help, please seek some for yourself from a trusted friend or counselor or clergy, because any choice you make will be difficult.

Because you asked, I wouldn't consider bringing children into a house with a person with a barely controlled temper. I wouldn't want them growing up feeling sick and depressed because of some outburst, or walking on eggshells awaiting the next one. That's a terrible way to live, and children don't usually get to choose to leave such a life. You can.
posted by melissa may at 9:00 PM on November 19, 2005

Another thing you might consider is this:

How much progress is enough? He has made progress, by what you have said. If you feel that progress is significant, then perhaps he's got a chance and will continue improving. But if the progress has slowed or stopped or was never that much to begin with, then yeah, you should cut your losses.

But when you say that you now realize it will never go away, do you mean utterly? Or you believe it will never get better than it is now? When people actually manage to change over time for me, I'm usually very appreciative. It's a rare thing, actually, to be able to change. If he's demonstrated the capacity to do so, you may not be wasting the time on him.

Then again, if you're feeling physical pain, then, as I said above, it may just be too much anyway.
posted by scarabic at 9:01 PM on November 19, 2005

I think your BF needs therapy to find out what he's really so angry about because it's not you.
posted by fshgrl at 9:40 PM on November 19, 2005

It seems that you both need to see a therapist. He needs to get a grip on his unacceptable behavior. You need someone to talk to and to help you (to either help him or get over him).

I wouldn't stay with him if he doesn't go to therapy. I wouldn't have children with him unless he gets a complete grip on his anger. While you may be ok with the occasional outburst (a few times a year), kids won't be. Can you imagine what it would be like for a four year old to see their dad punching holes in walls regularly?
posted by oddman at 9:58 PM on November 19, 2005

No one asks these questions unless they're finding the courage to leave.
posted by johngoren at 10:22 PM on November 19, 2005

You might want to do some reading about bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder. IANAD, but extreme anger is a symptom of both. Good luck with your decision - I can't imagine how hard it must be for you.
posted by Serena at 10:32 PM on November 19, 2005

I would never be with someone who behaved as you have described.

As others mentioned, all that really matters is what is acceptable to YOU. If you think his outbursts are not appropriate, regardless of how much he has changed, then it is okay to tell him. What he does with that information will let you know if it is worth it to stay in the relationship.
posted by birgitte at 10:57 PM on November 19, 2005

He does not say things that are abusive, he does not hit me...

Well...OK, then.

I feel physical pain when it happens. It injures me deeply, and sends me into a depression sometimes when it happens.

Whoah. It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem, not your boyfriend.

Lots of people lose their temper, and lots of people aren't particularly mature when it comes to controlling or expressing anger. You're not describing a guy who's off the deep end. (And anyone who tells you that breaking objects is a "short step" from hitting you is expressing an offensively ignorant understanding of actual physical abuse.)

I've also known plenty of people who aren't used to witnessing anger, and who feel uncomfortable and distubed by outbursts that I'd shrug off. However, you're describing something else entirely. Physical pain and depression are not common responses to another person's temper tantrum.

Would it be better if your boyfriend didn't throw temper tantrums? Of course. But since you admit he maintains enough control to avoid hitting you or even making hurtful comments, he doesn't even rank in the worst 25% -- so my suggestion is, for the time being, set his problem aside and examine yours.
posted by cribcage at 11:56 PM on November 19, 2005

I have to say I disagree with cribcage's perspective (!!??). My sister's (thankfully now ex-husband) broke walls and generally stormed around physically. (BTW I say thankfully ex not b/c I don't think this things can be worked out in these sits. but b/c he was a controlling, philandering, dickweed.) When she described how she felt when this was happening (he actually forced the door open at one point) it made my blood boil.

As an adolescent I once kicked a hole in a wall. My sister and I used to push doors back and forth all the time and chase eachother around fighting like crazy. That was pretty messed up. But that was eighteen years ago and I was a 12 year old then. Even then that kind of behavior was not acceptable.

When it's two grown ups living together and one of them is acting in a manner that can only be described as physically violent then there is a problem which needs to be fixed. Either mutually or by 'independently'. Hell, he probably doesn't want to be doing this shit himself - so it's not that big of a deal for him to go out their and talk to some folks (mens groups, counselors, whatever) and figure out how to stop doing it. There is no reason to put up with this violent bullshit. Bullies lose, period.
posted by prettyboyfloyd at 12:46 AM on November 20, 2005

Physical pain and depression are not common responses to another person's temper tantrum.

Says who? His consistent levels of anger/temper are a form of emotional abuse that frighten her. She's describing a highly physical, emotional reaction to the profound anxiety and fear his constant temper tantrums cause -- not only does that seem perfectly reasonable to me, it sounds like her body/heart's way of telling her that she's had enough.
posted by scody at 12:50 AM on November 20, 2005

You're not describing a guy who's off the deep end.

Every couple of weeks he loses his temper violently. Anonymous states that once -- when he was angry at her -- he hit the wall with enough force to break a bone. What section of the pool is he swimming in, then?

(And anyone who tells you that breaking objects is a "short step" from hitting you is expressing an offensively ignorant understanding of actual physical abuse.)

You are careful to specify physical abuse, but there are other kinds. If I had to worry that I might anger my husband to the point where he was going to lose control of himself and cause serious physical harm to anyone, including himself, or damage things around our home by flinging them around, I'd be sick from the stress of it too. This kind of behavior is extremely controlling and intimidating. It communicates this: choose your words and actions very carefully around me, because you never know when I'm going to lose it and hurt the things you care about, including myself.

I would find this sort of continual pressure intolerable to my sense of stability and dignity. I would also find it intolerable to raise children in such an environment.

Finally, these:

It sounds to me like you're the one with the problem, not your boyfriend...Physical pain and depression are not common responses to another person's temper tantrum... he doesn't even rank in the worst 25%...

are the only truly offensive statements in this thread, because they both minimize the gravity of the situation and state that the problem lies with anonymous. These are not "tantrums" -- those are what 2-year-olds have. This is a grown man being unpredictably violent and destructive on a routine basis. The resulting stress could certainly cause the physical and emotional feelings anonymous is having.

Anonymous, whatever else has been said: your reactions are not excessive, and this is not your fault. I dearly hope that both you and your partner get some help.
posted by melissa may at 12:51 AM on November 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

(my wife says he's never going to change...I don't know who the hell we are anyway, but that's are four cents. The main thinf is that it's your life and you just need to make sure that you are doing the best thing for _you_ and that you are safe. Four and a half years is a long time, but there are a lot of people out there who would love to start a relationship with someone and have the decency to not express their anger in a physically abusive manner. Sorry for the spelling errors above...)
posted by prettyboyfloyd at 12:57 AM on November 20, 2005

I think that everyone in here but cribcage is off the fucking deep end. If punching a hole in the wall were the same thing as battery, all the men I know and three-quarters of the women would have served time by now. That's not to say it's a good thing or even an acceptable thing, but this is not Ike fucking Turner here, folks.

If I were were you, anonymous, I'd probably leave him because he doesn't sound like any fun, and I'd be dreading those blow-ups, but I wouldn't get all freaked out and Lifetime Network like everyone else wants to.

He may not be the best guy in the world. He may not even be a good guy at all. But he is not yet a monster. If you decide to dump him, that's your choice, but don't let the insanity in this thread make that decision for you.

P.S. Letting us know what he flips out about would have been helpful. Take care; good luck.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:27 AM on November 20, 2005

I am not a doctor, but I do know what it is like to experience episodes of irrational anger and in my case they were clearly brought on by diet. The culprits are caffeine and sugar, and the problems happen when they wear off. I have experienced almost no problems since I cut out caffeine altogether and the few times I have had an issue I think it can be traced back to withdrawal after a high dose of sugar (e.g. McDonalds shake - maybe the salt in the burger and fries contributes as well).

Moderate sugar consumption does not seem to produce nearly such a bad effect as a huge dose all at once, and it's not too hard to avoid those. Caffeine seems to have a more powerful effect on me, and I have eliminated it almost completely except for helping to stay alert on long drives - and then I am careful to watch for withdrawal signs afterwards and take a low dose of caffeine (e.g. by making a half decaf instant coffee) if I think I need one.

Have a look at Kathleen DesMaisons's web site and her book, Potatoes not Prozac which you should be able to get from the library.

If your boyfriend does decide to go off caffeine, I would suggest cutting down incrementally - I did it cold turkey which I think was probably unnecessarily unpleasant. Better to just reduce the dose bit by bit by mixing in an increasing proportion of decaf.

Good luck - like I said, these changes have made a big difference for me, I hope you can persuade your boyfriend to give them a try, or at least to find out more about diet and mood.
posted by teleskiving at 1:39 AM on November 20, 2005

If punching a hole in the wall were the same thing as battery, all the men I know and three-quarters of the women would have served time by now.

No offense, but I don't know who you're hanging out with or what you think a normal, healthy expression of anger is. I can count on one hand all the people in my entire life who've ever punched a hole in a wall, and still have a couple of fingers left over. Putting one's fist through a wall is not common behavior -- maybe that's why every so many people in this thread are concerned.

Either that, or we're all insane, as you claim. Because we don't put our fists through walls, and expect those around us to refrain from it as well. Yes, that's clearly nuts!
posted by scody at 1:41 AM on November 20, 2005

If I were were you, anonymous, I'd probably leave him because he doesn't sound like any fun, and I'd be dreading those blow-ups, but I wouldn't get all freaked out and Lifetime Network like everyone else wants to.

Amen to this. Leave him because his style of controlling his rage is grating on you. But he's not necessarily a bad person based on the behavior you're describing.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:15 AM on November 20, 2005

hmmm. i think i've only ever thrown something once, and never broken a bone, but there have been times - quite often - in my life where i have frequently been angry/frustrated, and it does upset my partner.

on the subject of children i can't really help you, as neither of us want them, so the question hasn't really come up.

but i wanted to defend your partner a little. you say he's got a lot better. that suggests that he is working hard at making you happy. also, in my experience, things get better with time. my father, and his mother before him (she did break her fingers once, when my father ducked and she hit the wall behind him...) have had violent tempers (i don't know if this is something that might be inherited, or something that could be passed on by example). they both mellowed with time, and i think i am doing so too.

also, in my experience, people who are volatile like this are quick to forgive, if that is any compensation.

the second thing i wanted to say is more difficult, and may not be relevant. but certainly in our case part of the problem between me and my partner came from her mis-interpretation of my outbursts. she would often take them as personal attacks when they were typically/often expressions of frustration with completely unconnected areas of my life. once she understood that - and that i was not (as she has experienced with other people in the past) intending to make her miserable, or punish her in any way, she found it easier to deal with me. i believe.

(i'm missing a lot of relatively important details because these things are rather personal. i don't know if you missed some details in your question, too. i wonder how much you are like my partner, and of course that worries me. but then i also wonder how much of the good things and complicating issues you are missing. and then i worry whether i imagine those to excuse myself, and then i start going round in circles....)

anyway, in conclusion, i'd like to suggest a way forwards. your partner is clearly making an effort for you. it's unfair to keep expecting continual improvement while still holding open the option of leaving. you should define what is acceptable behaviour. how often and how strong can these outbursts be, and how long you can wait for that level to be met. then explain that to him. in that way you decide together how things will be. if you can't come to an acceptable target, or he can't reach it, then leave.
posted by andrew cooke at 5:03 AM on November 20, 2005

If he's loosing his temper, then there is no (not enough) communication.

Physical expression is easy when there is difficulty with other forms; I know, because I do it.

Something you don't mention, notwithstanding Mellisa Mays' appropriate comments above; Are you 'pushing buttons' that are contributary at all?

There is of course another side to this question - and one that will only be of use if you both communicate - using whatever medium you can, therapy, friends, the phone - email - whatever works for you both. Hell, get him on here and see what the question *he* poses is.

Alternatively, bail; 5 and a half years is a blink in terms of relationships depending on your age. Whatever you do, DO SOMETHING. Best wishes.
posted by DrtyBlvd at 5:55 AM on November 20, 2005

I have this problem.

I used to punch holes in the walls, throw tools, and get generally insane. But randomly. I've always been that way, since I was a kid. I'm 32 now.

It got so bad, I eventually saw a therapist. It's helped immensly, and I haven't lost it in months. Basically we figured out its depression, and I've also got some issues with ADD (ALthough i'm not sure that fits in to this discussion). But basically, I was totally depressed, and it was the only way I knew to express my emotions. My wife would get angry about me being angry, and it would just be bad for both of us.

Now, I have learned to talk, and express my emotions, and I have done it with the help of my wife. If she would have left during this, I don't know what would have happened. I don't think I would have been able to go on.

That being said - Either dump him and move on or devote yourself to him. HE NEEDS YOU, even though he does not know how to communicate it. Make sure he gets help, give him room to grow, and things might work out.

I understand though, if you want to leave. You have issues you need to work on as well, and it is tough to manage both yours and his emotions at once. So counselling for the both of you!
posted by quibx at 6:21 AM on November 20, 2005

one thing that some men (i suspect i'm not alone) find difficult to accept is not so much that talking about problems can be useful - often that's pretty obvious - but that talking about problems that have no solution may be helpful too. it's quite possible (in my opinion/experience) for life to be imperfect in some way, and for that imperfection to be something that cannot be corrected (at least not in the short to medium term).

some things simply have to be endured.

however, they don't have to be endured in silence. even if there is no solution, it may help to talk about things. in my experience men, particularly, are not good at this. and, in my experience, it is these long-term problems that are the root cause of much anger and frustration, largely because of the powerless feeling they leave you with.

this suggests two possible strategies that might help. one is a regular "lets complain about the shitty unresolvable things in life" session. the other (which might be difficult) is to encourage talking about those subjects when he is becoming angry.
posted by andrew cooke at 6:40 AM on November 20, 2005

If he was strong enough to change since the beginning of your relationship, he may be strong enough to continue to change. You may want to encourage him to speed up the process (i.e. therapy) though.
posted by k8t at 7:52 AM on November 20, 2005

It seems like you have been seeing some progtress with your partner, but it may be time for another one of those "If this doesn't get moderated in some way I need to change the way we relate" discussions. I know that there are a lot of people who are comfortable dealing with angry outbursts. I personally am not one of them. I'm glad andrewcooke chimed in here because I know that he and I have differing perspectives on relationships that deal with anger, or we deal with anger differently in our relationships.

I grew up in a family of hollerers, snappers, and occasionally throwers and [once] chair-breakers. I grew up being afraid that my father would get angry and kill me even though he had never raised a hand to anyone in the house. This was not a great way to grow up, and my gut reaction to your story is "Please don't have kids with this guy unless something changes." I have very little idea of how to set boundaries for someone else's anger and I spent a lot of time in a relationship with an angry person where we had the relationship similar to the one you describe. It was a long time ago, but our moods would feed each other which was the worst part. He was angry and I was more depressive and neither of us seemed to be able to get out of our dark moods alone, but we both had to calm down for us both to feel better. It was totally horrible and I'm happy it's behind me.

I'm in a new relationship with an non-angry person and now I'm the angry person (if one of us had to be) but we're not in a relationship where that's a way we have to be TOGETHER. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but I'll get in foul moods and get snappish and the way we deal with it is different. I'll go away. I'll go swimming. I'll just shut up and not let the mood overtake me. The mood is MY problem, not OUR problem. We've agreed that it's not my partner's job to fix my mood. Sometimes my partner will walk away, or offer a more constructive ultimatum "I'll stay here and talk but there isn't going to be any more snapping/whatever" In short it's a deal we made that's hard to hold up, but valuable to me because I think grappling with my anger helps me in places that aren't just the house.

That said, if you're afraid of him, or potentially afraid for yourself, that's a more immediate need than helping your partner through his problems and only you can decide what the line is. In my universe, he's being emotionally abusive to you. It's clear by the other responses here that not everyone feels that way about how he's behaving. The main question you asked "Is this sort of thing happening every other week or so okay?" is obviously a subjective thing, but I have to say that for me it definitely would not be.
posted by jessamyn at 8:18 AM on November 20, 2005

therapy. without it, there might not be much hope. with it, there's certainly some possibility.
posted by shmegegge at 8:36 AM on November 20, 2005

We don't know you, and we can only talk about our own experiences. For that reason, I strongly recommend you see a therapist as soon as possible. With your bf if he will agree to go, but by yourself if he will not. Only someone who can deal with your specific personalities and familiy histories will be able to help you both find a solution.

For those who think someone who can't go three weeks without shouting, throwing things, or hitting a wall is perfectly normal, you should know that clinical protocols do state that expressions of chronic anger like that can be a form of abuse, regardless of whether it ever progresses to violence against another person. It's a means of intimidation. It's not 'all Lifetime Channel' just to recognize that these behaviors are classic red flags. It doesn't mean that's what this situation is, but it does mean the Asker will want to take a look at resources related to domestic abuse.Here's a link to one site that is just as good as any in explicating forms of abuse -- there are loads of them. Brief excerpt:

What is the definition of domestic abuse between intimate partners?

Domestic abuse between spouses or intimate partners is when one person in a marital or intimate relationship tries to control the other person. The perpetrator uses fear and intimidation and may threaten to use or may actually use physical violence. Domestic abuse that includes physical violence is called domestic violence.

The victim of domestic abuse or domestic violence may be a man or a woman. Domestic abuse occurs in traditional heterosexual marriages, as well as in same-sex partnerships. The abuse may occur during a relationship, while the couple is breaking up, or after the relationship has ended.

Domestic abuse often escalates from threats and verbal abuse to physical violence. Domestic violence may even end up in murder.

The key elements of domestic abuse are:

* intimidation
* humiliating the other person
* physical injury

Domestic abuse is not a result of losing control; domestic abuse is intentionally trying to control another person. The abuser is purposefully using verbal, nonverbal, or physical means to gain control over the other person.

Does this accurately describe your situation? If so, can it be solved? Again, only a therapist working directly with you can help you answer that. We can't. But since you asked: this would be absolutely unacceptable for me. And it's not a reflection on the worthlessness of the individual: I feel capable of recognizing the person's innate wonderfulness and desire to change, while at the same time recognizing that I could not be the one to help them through life with this problem. To me, relationships are about creating a strong and stable center from which each partner can operate in the world. That kind of intense drama and demand for energy is incompatible with my desires in a relationship.
posted by Miko at 8:44 AM on November 20, 2005

control/power is central. i think it is possible to be extremely frustrated and angry without wanting to control anyone (except oneself). i was worried about posting at all, because i don't want to be defending someone who is doing the indefensible. i'm not even sure my own behaviour is defensible. but i do (currently) think there's a difference between someone being unhappy and expressing that physically, and someone using physical methods - or any methods - to control someone else.

and i can certainly see that making such a distinction is hard if you are scared by it anyway; and that this is particularly true for children.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:58 AM on November 20, 2005

a painful, angry outburst at a frequency of approximately once every 2.5 weeks (more frequently if there's stress in his life)

Kids would certainly add stress.

You can stay and be frightened and physically hurt and possibly sent into a depression every 2.5 weeks for the rest of your life, or he (or both of you) can go into therapy and try to sort this thing out, or you can leave.

You say everything else is peachy, but it's hard to see where things are going wrong when you want them to work. It sounds like you've put up with a lot for a long time, and you may have gotten used to putting up with shit, so things might feel 'peachy' when they're not really.

Think about yourself first. You've done a lot for him, put up with depression and anger from him, but you need to take care of yourself. That might mean leaving, or it might mean insisting on therapy, or it might mean finding yourself a counsellor to deal with it, but you need to make sure that you're okay.
posted by heatherann at 9:10 AM on November 20, 2005

I apologize to everyone for the length of this post. I just want to tell anonymous about my own experience in the hope that it helps her figure out hers.

I was with a guy for about 4 years who I would consider emotionally/verbally abusive. He would flip out and yell at me sometimes; occasionally he would hit something (though not me) as he was yelling at me, or if we were arguing in the car, drive in a way that was really dangerous. Mostly, though, he'd "blow up" by putting me down and saying things to try to make me feel like shit about myself. Like hours-long arguments that ended up with him telling me what a worthless piece of crap I was, which would send me into tears and depression and self-questioning and self-blame, and resolving to do something or "work on" myself or be a better person.

I stayed with him because he was smart, funny, loved me, and the rest of the time was kind and enjoyable to be with. But after 4 years, I got out of it with the help of some therapy and a few supportive friends. The realizations I had that kicked me in the butt to kick him out of my life:

* When I'd come home in tears after being with him and harangued & belittled, and tell my roommate about the things he said to me, her aghast, open-mouthed silence helped me realize, "wow, I guess the way he's treating me IS totally messed up" and that it wasn't my fault.

* Focusing on MY feelings and my needs. When I thought about how miserable **I felt** being on the other end of his abuse all the time (rather than thinking about his feelings or needs, or how I could "help" him change himself), I could clearly see the really bad, unhealthy effects his abuse had on me. Like, being in this relationship with him turned me into a different (quieter, less confident, more serious, more afraid) person. And I missed the person I was without that abuse.

* At one point I decided "life is too short" to remain in a relationship that made me feel like garbage, always living in fear of his next outburst. I actually had that phrase echoing in my head like a mantra for a period. It helped me cut off our arguments, leave the house, hang up the phone, and tell him I didn't want to see him anymore.

* I realized that the good doesn't cancel out the bad, or make it okay or tolerable. Yes, there were good times. But those good times didn't make the bad stuff any less bad, or any more tolerable. The bad stuff was still not how I wanted to be living, not how I wanted to be in an intimate relationship with someone.

* Telling this guy I didn't want to be with him any more, and then sticking to that limit even when he was uber-apologetic and sweet, etc, was one of the hardest things I've done. But I realized that the fact that it was hard and it hurt a lot did NOT mean that I wanted to be back in that relationship putting up with the angry abusive outbursts. I figured out that even though it was really painful, it was the best thing for me to do, for ME.

One of the things he'd done for years was criticize my friends and make it harder for me to spend time with them, so I'd slowly become isolated from a lot of the people who could give me support to get out. But I was lucky, because I was able to find a really great therapist, and a few really great friends, who gave me the support I needed to have to find the strength to place those limits and say "I don't want to see you anymore."

I know for sure that he wouldn't have changed if I had stayed with him. I don't think either one of us could have broken out of the "cycle" we were in if we'd stayed together. I do think that my leaving him and not going back caused him to "get" a lot of things, though I don't know him well enough anymore to know if he's really changed. I hope he has, for him and for anyone who happens to get involved with him, but now I'm too busy living my own life and taking care of myself and people who treat me with love and respect to care too much what happens to him.

That's me, but I hope it helps you think about your situation. I think that "what's acceptable" is whatever *you* find acceptable -- not what someone else tells you is acceptable. But my one piece of advice to you, when you're trying to answer that question of "what's acceptable", would be to really think (with your feelings as well as your intellect) about what you want and how you want to feel, in your life, with a person you're intimately involved with. Before you think about kids (or not), ask yourself, "what do *I* want? How do I want *my* life to be?

Much love and good luck, and take good care of yourself.
posted by sarfah at 10:00 AM on November 20, 2005

Anonymous: I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I think you've already answered your own question. If your best friend said to you -

The anger when it comes is so real, and so frightening for me, that I feel physical pain when it happens - every 2 1/2 weeks. It injures me deeply, and sends me into a depression sometimes when it happens.

What would your advice be? Maybe your boyfriend is less violent than he used to be, but if the current situation never changes - are you willing to live the rest of your life feeling like this? It doesn't matter if anyone here says you're overreacting, what matters is where you draw healthy bounderies for yourself.

My advice is to get counseling and find out why you've been willing, in your own words, to put up with it for so long. I've got personal experience with this, email me if you want details.
posted by Space Kitty at 10:27 AM on November 20, 2005

I think women often put up with behavior from their spouses or boyfriends that makes them miserable because they think that's how all men (or, at least, most men), behave. So--even though I'm repeating something that's been said by many others above--I think it's worthwhile for me to add my own experiences as datapoints.

Neither I, nor my father, nor any of my male friends, nor any other man I've had the chance to observe in some detail, would routinely behave in the manner you describe. Throwing a chair or smashing a fist into a wall hard enough to break a bone is something I would expect to happen, at the very most, once or twice in an adult lifetime, and then only under the most extreme emotional pressure. If I knew somebody who even once a year got angry enough to throw things, I would consider him a major hothead.

Of course, my male friends/relatives and I are only human, and we all lose our temper at times, but it's important to note that, for all of us, losing our temper is a purely verbal thing. We manifest our anger in a peevish tone of our voice, or by saying something like, "That asshole really pisses me off." There's never any physical manifestation, other than maybe a frustrated or angry gesture, usually unconscious. When I'm very frustrated, I might hit my hand on the desk, but it's barely violent enough to crack a peanut shell, let alone my bones.

Also, it's important to note that nobody who has ever dated me(or any of my male friends) would feel the slightest need to use a phrase like : "He does not say things that are abusive, he does not hit me, but--" It would be like saying, "He never grows wings and flies, but--" The fact that, when you describe your boyfriend's behavior, you have to be careful to distinguish it from physical abuse... well, that should give you pause. I'm not saying it is physical abuse, or that it's as bad as physical abuse, because I don't think it is--but, you know, "not as bad as physical abuse" is hardly a ringing endorsement.


I think it's 100% clear that you must change things so that you are no longer present for this sort of unacceptable behavior. The only question is, how do you change things? I can thing of two ways:

1. Leave him now.
2. Give him a concrete goal and a concrete deadline ("Within six months, this sort of outburst will be down to once every two months. Within a year, it will be down to once every six months. And after that, it will never happen again. If it happens again after a year--even once--I will leave, and I will never come back. If I am more important to you than your angry outbursts, then take anger management classes, get therapy, do what you have to do to get this under control.") And if he doesn't succeed--leave him. Don't give him a second chance, because after 5 1/2 years of being with you, he's got to be up to his 7000th chance already.

If you choose option 2... and he somehow pulls it together and manages to go year after year without this kind of outburst... then and only then should you begin to even think about having children.
posted by yankeefog at 10:53 AM on November 20, 2005 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't put up with it.
posted by selfmedicating at 10:59 AM on November 20, 2005

No offense, but I don't know who you're hanging out with or what you think a normal, healthy expression of anger is. I can count on one hand all the people in my entire life who've ever punched a hole in a wall, and still have a couple of fingers left over. Putting one's fist through a wall is not common behavior -- maybe that's why every so many people in this thread are concerned.

I hang with academics and young professionals, mostly. The difference between my friends and yours, perhaps, is that mine admit to shit like punching or kicking a hole in the wall. It's not a every-weekend thing, realize: generally you do it once, realize how stupid it is - and how much of a pain in the ass to repair - and refrain from such behavior in the future. Only the meekest of milquetoasts have never gotten truly, redly angry, and to claim that you've had full control over your emotions your entire life is an insulting lie.

Like I said, this guy is perhaps not the best to be raising kids with, if he's blowing up every two and a half weeks. However, the fear-mongering in here, up until cribcage's comment, was way off-the-charts and unnecessary. I'm the first one to say that truly abusive spouses should be loked up or executed or whatever, and I've told people, "hey, that guy might kill you one day. Just a heads-up." But that's not the case here.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:12 AM on November 20, 2005

My mother had behavior similar to what you describe, and it was hell growing up with (although the anger in that case was somewhat worse than what you describe). Please don't have kids with this one. Also, it's clear that he's hurting you, and there's no reason to be in a relationship where you're worse off emotionally with than without. Better to be single and stable than with someone who makes you physically ill with fear twice a month. I would never put up with emotional sh*t like that again, and neither should you.
posted by lorrer at 11:55 AM on November 20, 2005

I can't answer this objectively due to personal experience, but I never forgave my mother for not leaving my father for this type of behavior.

My dad was like this. When I was old enough to talk, he began to hit me when he was angry instead of the TV or the wall. He had never shown signs of physical abuse before -- except for insane fits of throwing crap at walls, breaking stuff, etc. Of course, he eventually hit my mom too.
posted by Gucky at 12:20 PM on November 20, 2005

I was this guy in high school. I threw chairs, kicked in doors, tossed my friends into lockers... in hindsight, I imagine it was really scary for a lot of people around me, especially when I would attack them (rarely, but it's happened). The only bright spot was that I was a weakling, so it's not like I could beat anyone up. But a lot of the things you describe, I think I had as well, right down to the storming off before saying anything he couldn't take back.

I think you have to decide whether you're willing to put up with it, if you like this guy enough that you're willing to help him get past this. You seem very sensitive to this sort of violence (and it is a violence of a sort, even if he's not hitting anyone), and there's absolutely nothing wrong with leaving because of that. And if you do decide to stay, he's still got to stop punching walls and yelling and the like. Under no circumstances should you simply "accept it" and let him continue to occasionally terrorize you, especially because it's definitely not healthy for him, either.

All I can tell you is that it's possible for him to change. The postscript to my story is that halfway through high school, I stopped kicking things and throwing chairs, and ever since then close friends who didn't know me back then think of me as a generally mellow guy. They're really surprised to hear those stories, and occasionally get a kick out of them ("you kicked out the hinges of the door? holy crap!"). At some point, I must have decided (probably somewhat subconsciously) that the way in which I was expressing anger probably wasn't productive, and definitely was dangerous. Also, I liked having friends and didn't want to scare them all away for no good reason.

Would I bet my life on him changing? I'd have to go with the consensus here; it's certainly a risky proposition, especially if things take a turn for the worse. And if it does, you run for the hills and never look back. But you've already done quite a bit to help him come to the realization that what he's doing isn't healthy, and he seems remorseful; I think he just needs to know his job isn't done.
posted by chrominance at 3:29 PM on November 20, 2005

sorry, long post: First of all, if dealing with his depression and anger for 5.5 years has completely drained your emotional resources, please put yourself first for a change and leave him to protect your mental and physical health. However, if not...

it has not gone away, and I am beginning to see that it never will.

Even with the help of a good therapist? Is he willing to go to therapy - does he recognize that for you, his outbursts are making the relationship dysfunctional, to the extent that he would find a good therapist (either for himself, or for couples counseling with you)? If he thinks he's changed enough and now it's your problem, please get the hell out of the relationship. It takes two people to make a relationship work, but only one to break it. If he's willing to change, but can't afford a good therapist, then in my experience it would come down to whether you could live with tiny improvements. As an objective third party, a good therapist's perspective on the person's anger would go down much more easily than the same points coming from his/her partner, because of emotional baggage. So a therapist can dramatically speed up the person's rate of change.

he will suddenly get quite loud and lash out in obvious and painful anger. He does not say things that are abusive, he does not hit me, but he does occasionally throw stuff (never at me).

His emotional immaturity is a perfectly sound reason for leaving. So what if lots of adults throw temper tantrums? That doesn't mean you (or anyone) should put up with it. Just because other men have crossed the line into physical or verbal abuse, doesn't make your bf's behaviour something you're obligated to tolerate.

The first week I moved in with my now-husband, he started to lash out at me verbally about twice a week (nothing physical, no throwing, no verbal abusiveness or put-downs..."just" fury about what I thought were little things). When he saw how upset it made me, he tried to improve and I tried to help him by getting him to think about underlying causes, but that just redirected his anger towards me (he didn't want me analyzing him, etc). I stood it for a month and a half before saying that if he didn't see a therapist I'd leave. He was quite willing at that point - he knew he had a problem and it devastated him to see me crying.

With the therapist (once a week), there was an immediate improvement. After a month his outbursts reliably decreased to once a week. That rate continued for maybe 6 months, but all the time I could see him making improvements in recognizing when he was in a temper tantrum at all, or, and learning in baby steps how to let it go. (But it wasn't easy. Actually it was bloody awful. Hence my recommendation to get out if you've already used up your reserves over the past 5.5 yrs.)

After that his outbursts decreased to once every couple of weeks (so he adjusted his therapy to the same). That lasted for about a year (until last month), when we went for 3 weeks without one of his outbursts. Again, throughout, he made progress in recognizing his anger and expressing it in adult ways - he rarely raises his voice now, and he has learned to recognize in mid-outburst when unresolved childhood issues are the key to his anger instead of something I've said or done.

Now, the idea of having kids with him is attractive. When his tantrums were at 2x/week or once a week, absolutely not. Actually these days he's the one who doesn't think kids are an option, because he's come to grips with how much emotionally he still has to resolve and how difficult it is to wean himself off of habits of anger, and he doesn't want to model emotional immaturity for a kid.

I stayed with him because he was willing to change and was able to change as fast, I think, as could reasonably be expected, and he never plateau'd. We're happy. I've always thought of him as exceptional, but I'd be glad to be wrong.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 5:39 PM on November 20, 2005

Scarabic has hit the nail.
posted by fire&wings at 7:00 PM on November 20, 2005

It's okay to get so angry that you want to punch a wall. Under some circumstances, it is okay to go ahead and punch that wall. But it is NEVER acceptable to direct this type of violent anger to a loved one. And it is NEVER okay to scare your boyfriend or girlfriend so badly that he or she becomes physically ill as a result of your actions. NEVER. Two people in a long-term relationship need to establish trust, it is impossible to trust someone you are scared of. It's not okay to be scared of your boyfriend. If you are honestly scared, this is a big red flag.

Since your boyfriend is acting violently in reaction to anger AT YOU, it is probably really easy to internalize that treatment and believe that you are doing something to deserve it. This can make you mistrust your own instincts, and might make you think that it's normal for someone to act this way. Please listen to your own instincts here - if you encountered a stranger who made you feel the same physical sense of fear that your boyfriend does, you would run away. This is a very strong message from your own dear self that the situation is not right.

Please seek counseling from someone you trust. You should not be ashamed of your situation. Don't be embarrassed to ask for help, because it's very important that you use whatever resources you have at your disposal to address your current situation. Counseling can help you remember to trust your own instincts, and can make you realize that no matter what you do, you do not deserve to be on the receiving end of this anger. Please trust yourself and listen to yourself.

As for the children, one in six abused women report that their partners began to physically abuse them when they became pregnant. Anyone with such poor impulse control, who continues to act out in anger towards the woman he is supposed to love despite the fact that it makes her ill and terrifies her, is definitely the type of person who would escalate his abusive behavior from no-contact violent anger to actual physical abuse. Having children also can make a woman who is already feeling isolated even more isolated from her support network, and at the same time, financially dependent on her partner, thus making it even harder to leave.

Listen to your self. Hear what your physical reaction is telling you. Get help from friends, clergy, coworkers, teachers, anyone - people will help you if you ask. Stay strong.
posted by jennyb at 7:09 PM on November 20, 2005

Just to addres your last questions: I would not consider the rest of my relationship peachy if any part of it scared me unto illness and depression, and YOU yourself, without any children inside you or connected to you, are important enough of a consideration that staying in this relationship should not hinge on the presence or absence of children. There's a very good chance that having kids will make this much worse - but it's bad enough as it is that you shouldn't believe that this treatment is acceptable if directed only at you.

And Sorry, quibx, but this advice is crap:

"That being said - Either dump him and move on or devote yourself to him. HE NEEDS YOU, even though he does not know how to communicate it. Make sure he gets help, give him room to grow, and things might work out."

Things might work out, sure, or he might get worse and put you in the hospital. Is that a gamble you're willing to take? And if you devote yourself to his man who scares you so badly that you are sick to your stomach, what is left of yourself to devote to you? Your boyfriend might need you. It sounds like he needs a lot of things. But you need yourself more, and nobody can "make sure" anybody else gets help. That's his choice and his choice alone and it's NOT YOUR JOB to fix an abusive partner. It's your job to protect yourself first, and if he is inspired by your strength and loves and respects you, he'll get help himself.
posted by jennyb at 7:24 PM on November 20, 2005

One more post, re: having kids. Highlights taken from here, emphasis mine.

What is abuse?

Abuse may be mental, physical, or sexual. Mental abuse includes . . . controlling your life so much that you are uncomfortable.

How does abuse during pregnancy occur?

A man who responds to stress, frustration, or anger with violence may target your breasts and belly for punches or kicks. He may try to hurt you and harm the baby.
posted by jennyb at 7:29 PM on November 20, 2005

RikiTikiTavi has already chimed in, but I too may have some insight for you should you wish to email me.
posted by TTNoelle at 10:21 PM on November 20, 2005

While women withdraw and become sad when they're depressed, men often express depression in angry outbursts. Has he considered getting treatment?

It's not a gender thing, but anger is often considered the flip side of depression. I would also recommend some therapy and some anger management 'training' of some sort.

I wonder if some of this isn't just a difference of temperment, though. I'm surprised how many people are willing to say immediately that yelling every few weeks is unquestionably and obviously a "deal-breaker"; I'm not sure it would be for me. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a problem, but I don't think it would make me feel ragged and depressed, and maybe that's because I relate to anger, though of course I think it should be controlled.

I've had anger issues at various points in my life (usually concomitant with periods of depression) - part of it is because I grew up in a house full of yellers and stompers and throwers - no physical abuse, but anger was expressed - and part of it is probably just a personality thing. I've known people who just never really seem to experience real anger, which to me is weird, but it's just how they are. They don't have to learn to control it as much, because for them anger is more of an abstract standpoint ("I'm angry at joe for not calling me back") than a visceral feeling. Some people probably just have milder versions of the visceral feeling. And then some are just seized with rage, which we have to overcome. I can't say that everyone I know has punched through a wall, but I can say that I wouldn't think someone a freak or a monster for having done so - it seems like a fairly normal dumb thing to have done. But as I say, I can relate to the feeling of wanting to punch through a wall.

Also, regarding "trying to help", I know that for me when I was actually feeling angry, anyone I could perceive as cloying or passive-aggressive or condescending in any way - not that they were these things, but who I could read that way - only fed my anger. Best response is to calmly & unemotionally tell him, "you're being childish," and leave the room - go out for a walk if you can. That kind of blunt, no-nonsense attitude is much more likely to diffuse things, whereas crying & pleading & so forth are strongly emotional responses, which only add to the mix. Remember that anger is an emotion - irrational, powerful, impulsive. What you need is level-headedness and an ability to step back, not other emotions.

But again - it might be that you two are too different in temperment:
But the anger when it comes is so real, and so frightening for me, that I feel physical pain when it happens. It injures me deeply, and sends me into a depression sometimes when it happens.
I can't imagine feeling that way. If I had a partner who was having outbursts too often, I'd be annoyed, I'd want him or her in therapy, I'd want to work things out so this negative undercurrent wouldn't be there, but I would not feel physical pain and fear, because I understand anger. It is not strong; it is ultimately impotent. It is a weak and frustrated response to a world which is not currently conforming to your desires, and it does nothing to alter that. When someone is angry, they are really distressed with the way the world isn't cooperating, and some part of them seems to feel that if they just show the world how fucking powerful they are, it will have to concede. But the world is just not having it.
posted by mdn at 6:51 AM on November 21, 2005

Optimus Chyme: 7 out of 8 people you know have punched a hole in the wall? Seriously?

Look - there's no absolute standard for what's okay, what's bad but still okay, what's bad and not okay, and what's OMFG REALLY BAD. So let's all stop trying to apply some absolute measure to all of this. The point here is whether or not it's good/bad enough/too much for anonymous.

Getting into a zillion and one little sub-squabbles about exactly where the line is supposed to be drawn is lame and endless and not helpful.
posted by scarabic at 10:31 AM on November 21, 2005

The cycle you mention of getting angry, followed by hearts and flowers, followed by another tension building phase, is a recognized cycle to domestic violence workers. However, as you've said that he is not hitting you or throwing things at you, I agree with others that whether you stay or leave is not automatic one way or another and is largely based on your tolerance level and confidence in his desire and ability to change.

Your question would be easier if the problem were getting worse, or if he didn't acknowledge the problem or shown signs of improvement. I don't know how to balance the possibility of reducing these incidents further (or eliminating them altogether) against your current pain from what seems like a fairly high incident rate to me. So I can't really help you, but just wanted to thank you for your thoughtful post and say that I don't think you are overreacting in any way, and that I hope you get through this emotionally intact.
posted by onlyconnect at 10:38 AM on November 21, 2005

From the anonymous poster:

"It's amazing how much 58 total strangers can help a person. Thank you all again. If you would like to go back in that thread and post how extremely grateful I am to all who posted there, I would really appreciate it."
posted by Space Kitty at 8:38 AM on November 22, 2005