My potential boss is making me uncomfortable but I need this job
January 22, 2015 7:42 PM Subscribe
In light of the recent Ask and Meta about sexism at work, I thought I'd bring this dilemma to you guys. My potential boss is flirting heavily with me. I'm not interested in him but I really need the job.
I met this guy, let's call him Jon, through a female friend of mine we'll call Lori. They met randomly and started hanging out together platonically about six months ago. I think he might have been interested in her in the beginning, but now they're just friends. He ended up hiring her at the place he works but they still hang out a lot and she's brought him into our friendship group. I've hung out with them a few times. I've always thought it best to compartmentalize work and friendship in the interest of professionalism, but Lori lets it all hang out with anyone, and the two of them talk about a lot of personal things. That's okay but not necessarily in my comfort zone.
Jon has always been a little more friendly than I'm comfortable with. He comes off as desperately eager and obsequious. He's kind of touchy-feely and I'm generally fine with hugging my friends hello and goodbye, but there's just a vibe I get with him that there's something more -- a touch lingering a little too long, squeezing my shoulders, stuff like that. I'm very introverted, suspect I'm on the autism spectrum (am trying to find someone to diagnose me, but that'll be another Ask) and generally not very touchy-feely except with romantic partners. I feel intruded upon.
A week ago, Jon texted me to invite me to come to a bar with him and Lori. I declined because I had to take my mom to surgery the next morning. Jon made a tasteless joke about my mom: "Ha ha, is the surgery to make her taller?" My mom and I are both very petite and neither of us take kindly to being made fun of for it; we've both been bullied for being short. He's never even met my mom, which means the joke was really about me, since I'm the one he has met. It's not like I hate him for saying this, but I find it annoying and a turnoff.
Lori told me later about an exchange the two of them had about me at the bar. "We were talking about strip clubs and Jon said he'd rather see you walk across the room than go to a strip club since you are the most ravishing creature he's ever seen." She thought this was funny and agreed with him that I was attractive (she's bi but there has never been anything between us that way). I guess I felt complimented...kind of. But more creeped out than anything. I'm not sure if he meant with or without my clothes.
I had to go to his workplace as an outside consultant for an event the following week and when I saw him he put his arm around me and said I looked "stunning as ever." I thanked him but didn't flirt back. That night he called and said he had put in a good word with his boss (a woman) for me about getting the job.
Finally, tonight he texted me again about wanting me to come out with him and Lori to the bar at the last minute. I'm really not a last minute person, and that's another thing about him that rubs me the wrong way. I told him I was working on an important project and couldn't come and he wrote back, "good luck, my favorite person."
Not even my family gushes over me like this and only one of my exes ever has and it was even a bit much coming from a partner. But coming from someone I am completely unattracted to it's really bothersome.
I very much need the job in which he would be my supervisor, and I live in an area of the country in which jobs are hard to come by. There are specific reasons (hours, proximity, flexibility) that this would be the perfect job for me, at least in the short term. I know they have a lot of rules on sexual harassment. Lori isn't the least bit uncomfortable with him (but I feel like she has a lot of internalized misogyny and accepts crappy treatment from men or even uses her attractiveness opportunistically because she thinks that's how things are supposed to work).
My discomfort with him is going to start showing. I can't just keep laughing it off and pretending it's okay, especially after reading the "Bitch in Business" Ask thread. My consciousness has been raised, and what is seen cannot be unseen. Once my discomfort starts showing to him, he'll be asking me why I'm so "cold." I know this will happen because it's happened before, with other similar situations in which I felt like I couldn't speak directly to someone without jeopardizing myself.
I'm also left wondering how much of Jon pushing for me to get hired is about him having a crush on me rather than a simple "friend of a friend" networking connection. Using someone's interest in me to get ahead makes me sick and I don't want to do it. Problem is, I don't have any other options. I keep thinking that if only Jon would stop fawning over me and just relax and be a friend that it would be a great place to work. I do think he's a decent and well-meaning guy who doesn't realize these advances are unwelcome. And there's a little part of me that keeps whispering, "you're making a big deal out of nothing." I haven't told Lori the extent of my discomfort because I know she would trivialize it. Am I just taking a harmlessly nice and sort of desperate guy too seriously and need to get my own head right, or are there steps I should take or things I should say to him to set boundaries?
I met this guy, let's call him Jon, through a female friend of mine we'll call Lori. They met randomly and started hanging out together platonically about six months ago. I think he might have been interested in her in the beginning, but now they're just friends. He ended up hiring her at the place he works but they still hang out a lot and she's brought him into our friendship group. I've hung out with them a few times. I've always thought it best to compartmentalize work and friendship in the interest of professionalism, but Lori lets it all hang out with anyone, and the two of them talk about a lot of personal things. That's okay but not necessarily in my comfort zone.
Jon has always been a little more friendly than I'm comfortable with. He comes off as desperately eager and obsequious. He's kind of touchy-feely and I'm generally fine with hugging my friends hello and goodbye, but there's just a vibe I get with him that there's something more -- a touch lingering a little too long, squeezing my shoulders, stuff like that. I'm very introverted, suspect I'm on the autism spectrum (am trying to find someone to diagnose me, but that'll be another Ask) and generally not very touchy-feely except with romantic partners. I feel intruded upon.
A week ago, Jon texted me to invite me to come to a bar with him and Lori. I declined because I had to take my mom to surgery the next morning. Jon made a tasteless joke about my mom: "Ha ha, is the surgery to make her taller?" My mom and I are both very petite and neither of us take kindly to being made fun of for it; we've both been bullied for being short. He's never even met my mom, which means the joke was really about me, since I'm the one he has met. It's not like I hate him for saying this, but I find it annoying and a turnoff.
Lori told me later about an exchange the two of them had about me at the bar. "We were talking about strip clubs and Jon said he'd rather see you walk across the room than go to a strip club since you are the most ravishing creature he's ever seen." She thought this was funny and agreed with him that I was attractive (she's bi but there has never been anything between us that way). I guess I felt complimented...kind of. But more creeped out than anything. I'm not sure if he meant with or without my clothes.
I had to go to his workplace as an outside consultant for an event the following week and when I saw him he put his arm around me and said I looked "stunning as ever." I thanked him but didn't flirt back. That night he called and said he had put in a good word with his boss (a woman) for me about getting the job.
Finally, tonight he texted me again about wanting me to come out with him and Lori to the bar at the last minute. I'm really not a last minute person, and that's another thing about him that rubs me the wrong way. I told him I was working on an important project and couldn't come and he wrote back, "good luck, my favorite person."
Not even my family gushes over me like this and only one of my exes ever has and it was even a bit much coming from a partner. But coming from someone I am completely unattracted to it's really bothersome.
I very much need the job in which he would be my supervisor, and I live in an area of the country in which jobs are hard to come by. There are specific reasons (hours, proximity, flexibility) that this would be the perfect job for me, at least in the short term. I know they have a lot of rules on sexual harassment. Lori isn't the least bit uncomfortable with him (but I feel like she has a lot of internalized misogyny and accepts crappy treatment from men or even uses her attractiveness opportunistically because she thinks that's how things are supposed to work).
My discomfort with him is going to start showing. I can't just keep laughing it off and pretending it's okay, especially after reading the "Bitch in Business" Ask thread. My consciousness has been raised, and what is seen cannot be unseen. Once my discomfort starts showing to him, he'll be asking me why I'm so "cold." I know this will happen because it's happened before, with other similar situations in which I felt like I couldn't speak directly to someone without jeopardizing myself.
I'm also left wondering how much of Jon pushing for me to get hired is about him having a crush on me rather than a simple "friend of a friend" networking connection. Using someone's interest in me to get ahead makes me sick and I don't want to do it. Problem is, I don't have any other options. I keep thinking that if only Jon would stop fawning over me and just relax and be a friend that it would be a great place to work. I do think he's a decent and well-meaning guy who doesn't realize these advances are unwelcome. And there's a little part of me that keeps whispering, "you're making a big deal out of nothing." I haven't told Lori the extent of my discomfort because I know she would trivialize it. Am I just taking a harmlessly nice and sort of desperate guy too seriously and need to get my own head right, or are there steps I should take or things I should say to him to set boundaries?
I very much need the job in which he would be my supervisor, and I live in an area of the country in which jobs are hard to come by. There are specific reasons (hours, proximity, flexibility) that this would be the perfect job for me, at least in the short term. I know they have a lot of rules on sexual harassment.
This stuff will not stop if you get hired. In his mind, you have a pre-existing relationship that will override all of the company's rules on sexual harassment -- which would absolutely also apply to potential co-workers as well, so he's already ignoring them.
posted by Etrigan at 7:57 PM on January 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
This stuff will not stop if you get hired. In his mind, you have a pre-existing relationship that will override all of the company's rules on sexual harassment -- which would absolutely also apply to potential co-workers as well, so he's already ignoring them.
posted by Etrigan at 7:57 PM on January 22, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm sorry. That's a really crappy situation. I would not want to work with that guy but I understand your options sound fairly limited. One thing I would try is that every time he says something like the "ravishing as always" or "my favourite person", instead of saying thank you or laughing or whatever you are doing now, try putting on a serious face and saying, "wow, that makes me feel uncomfortable." Then straight back to friendly.
His reaction will tell you a lot about whether you will be able to work with him. If he's just clueless ,he might be a bit defensive, but he might also learn to tone it down. If he is really defensive every time, or tells you you are overreacting, or that you are a bitch or similar, then no matter how much you need the job, I wouldn't take it. You'll be in for a long road of HR complaints and likely to lose the job anyway if he has any power.
posted by lollusc at 8:00 PM on January 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
His reaction will tell you a lot about whether you will be able to work with him. If he's just clueless ,he might be a bit defensive, but he might also learn to tone it down. If he is really defensive every time, or tells you you are overreacting, or that you are a bitch or similar, then no matter how much you need the job, I wouldn't take it. You'll be in for a long road of HR complaints and likely to lose the job anyway if he has any power.
posted by lollusc at 8:00 PM on January 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
1,000 times no. This is a disaster waiting to happen. Some people are OK with a level of mild sexual harassment. I don't get the idea you're one of them. You'll get the job and the paycheck, sure. But the rest will end badly. My guess is this guy turns on you the minute he realizes you're not going to sleep with him.
On preview, lollusc's advice is good too.
posted by cnc at 8:01 PM on January 22, 2015
On preview, lollusc's advice is good too.
posted by cnc at 8:01 PM on January 22, 2015
I was going to tell you that this is not a big deal, and look, not everybody gets along with their boss outside of work or jibes with their personal style. But I would feel very uncomfortable taking a job where my immediate supervisor was prone to saying things like he'd rather watch me walk across a room than go to a strip club. Like there's "I'm not touchy feely and don't like people making jokes about my mom," and then there's sexual harassment. And if this sort of behavior continues when you take this job, it will be sexual harassment.
Some questions:
1. What are the terms of the job offer? Did he offer you the job apropos of nothing, or were you already applying for a position with the company? I would RUN if this job offer materialized out of nowhere after this creeper happened to become fixated on you. Whereas the job offer and this one dude's general demeanor being unrelated might make me lean slightly in the direction of taking the job. (Not a definite yes, but not a RUN FOR THE HILLS either.)
2. What's the rest of the company culture like? Who would your other coworkers be? Is this guy your direct supervisor? Is there a corporate infrastructure in place to help you enforce boundaries and potentially discipline him?
3. What's his role? Is he president of the company, or just a cog in a machine? Who is his boss, and what is their relationship like? If it comes down to it, is HR going to take his side or yours? Also, how feasible would it be to be transferred to a different team if you wanted that? Are we talking Dov Charney or Middle Management Notorious Lech?
I mean I still wouldn't take the job, but if it's a large company, he's not the one formally hiring you, and you could end up on a different team easily, I might consider just knowing that you're going to have to watch him like a hawk at all times and have HR on speed dial until you can make the leap to something else.
posted by Sara C. at 8:01 PM on January 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Some questions:
1. What are the terms of the job offer? Did he offer you the job apropos of nothing, or were you already applying for a position with the company? I would RUN if this job offer materialized out of nowhere after this creeper happened to become fixated on you. Whereas the job offer and this one dude's general demeanor being unrelated might make me lean slightly in the direction of taking the job. (Not a definite yes, but not a RUN FOR THE HILLS either.)
2. What's the rest of the company culture like? Who would your other coworkers be? Is this guy your direct supervisor? Is there a corporate infrastructure in place to help you enforce boundaries and potentially discipline him?
3. What's his role? Is he president of the company, or just a cog in a machine? Who is his boss, and what is their relationship like? If it comes down to it, is HR going to take his side or yours? Also, how feasible would it be to be transferred to a different team if you wanted that? Are we talking Dov Charney or Middle Management Notorious Lech?
I mean I still wouldn't take the job, but if it's a large company, he's not the one formally hiring you, and you could end up on a different team easily, I might consider just knowing that you're going to have to watch him like a hawk at all times and have HR on speed dial until you can make the leap to something else.
posted by Sara C. at 8:01 PM on January 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
FWIW, I'm pretty sure he meant with your clothes on.
I feel like you might be transposing a lot of stuff onto Jon. He made a stupid joke. He thinks you are friends the way he is friends with Lori. This is not true, but he doesn't "get" it yet. Sure he likes you, sure, but he seems easy to re-direct. This is not a catastrophe.
You've missed a couple of opportunities in the moment to stick up for yourself, and I suggest you do that the next time he touches you or makes a dumb joke.
If you get the job, "Gosh Jon, thanks for the invite! You know, I really prefer to keep my private and professional life separate, so I won't come to the bar now that I'm working at XYZ corp. Hope you guys have fun!"
Say that just once. After that, "No thank you" -or- "I won't be able to be there" totally works.
I can't Nth lollusc enough. From the way you tell the story, you haven't set any boundaries yet. I think you can dump on his character after you set him straight, but not before. Right now he sees you in a similar light as he sees your friend Lori. Correct that.
posted by jbenben at 8:03 PM on January 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
I feel like you might be transposing a lot of stuff onto Jon. He made a stupid joke. He thinks you are friends the way he is friends with Lori. This is not true, but he doesn't "get" it yet. Sure he likes you, sure, but he seems easy to re-direct. This is not a catastrophe.
You've missed a couple of opportunities in the moment to stick up for yourself, and I suggest you do that the next time he touches you or makes a dumb joke.
If you get the job, "Gosh Jon, thanks for the invite! You know, I really prefer to keep my private and professional life separate, so I won't come to the bar now that I'm working at XYZ corp. Hope you guys have fun!"
Say that just once. After that, "No thank you" -or- "I won't be able to be there" totally works.
I can't Nth lollusc enough. From the way you tell the story, you haven't set any boundaries yet. I think you can dump on his character after you set him straight, but not before. Right now he sees you in a similar light as he sees your friend Lori. Correct that.
posted by jbenben at 8:03 PM on January 22, 2015 [10 favorites]
It also sounds like Lori is trying to set you up with him. Handle that any way that is appropriate.
posted by jbenben at 8:08 PM on January 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by jbenben at 8:08 PM on January 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
I can't just keep laughing it off and pretending it's okay
If you are pretending it's ok, then how would he know it's not?
When he touches you: move away and calmly "I'm not really a touchie-feelie person." And go back to whatever conversation you were having.
posted by HMSSM at 8:14 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you are pretending it's ok, then how would he know it's not?
When he touches you: move away and calmly "I'm not really a touchie-feelie person." And go back to whatever conversation you were having.
posted by HMSSM at 8:14 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you want to take the job you need to be crystal clear with him up front that you aren't interested in him romantically, sexually, anything, period.
Crystal clears means you say, "I just want to be up front about the fact that I'm not interested in dating you."
Don't say something like, "I'm not looking for a relationship right now," or "I don't like to date people who I work with," or something similar. Giving a side excuse will just encourage.
If you're comfortable laying down that bright line before you accept the job, then it might work. If you're not comfortable doing that, then no no no do not take the job. It will be a continual nightmare of inappropriate comments, inappropriate touching, and general yech.
posted by alms at 8:16 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Crystal clears means you say, "I just want to be up front about the fact that I'm not interested in dating you."
Don't say something like, "I'm not looking for a relationship right now," or "I don't like to date people who I work with," or something similar. Giving a side excuse will just encourage.
If you're comfortable laying down that bright line before you accept the job, then it might work. If you're not comfortable doing that, then no no no do not take the job. It will be a continual nightmare of inappropriate comments, inappropriate touching, and general yech.
posted by alms at 8:16 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If your friend tells you things he said that are inappropriate: "I guess it's too bad for him I'm not interested romantically."
He invites you out last minute: "No thanks, I'm not really a spontaneous person."
He invites you out and you just don't want to go: "No thanks." And then if he presses just repeat various phrases that mean "no thank you"
If he asks you what's going on: I'd rather keep things professional between the two of us.
posted by HMSSM at 8:19 PM on January 22, 2015
He invites you out last minute: "No thanks, I'm not really a spontaneous person."
He invites you out and you just don't want to go: "No thanks." And then if he presses just repeat various phrases that mean "no thank you"
If he asks you what's going on: I'd rather keep things professional between the two of us.
posted by HMSSM at 8:19 PM on January 22, 2015
I don't know why I'm reading this so differently than the posters above, but I am, so I'll share my read in case it's helpful.
I don't think this is the garden-variety boundary-pushing flirty guy who is overly friendly and informal and needs to be constantly managed by you asserting clear boundaries, which would be bad enough, and would make me not want the job. To me, it sounds like he REALLY, REALLY likes you, not just in the wanting-to-bone-you way; he wants you to be his girlfriend. He's already talking to you like you're his girlfriend. "My favorite person?" "The most ravishing creature I've ever seen?" Jesus. This guy probably thinks he's in love with you.
He also sounds slightly off (responding with an insult about your looks rather than compassion when he learned your mom was going into surgery?) and...intense, and I can see this going real bad. He already seems blind to your discomfort and I don't feel like he'd handle "rejection" (i.e., you asserting your reasonable boundaries) well.
In light of that, I don't know what would make a job worth the potential hell.
posted by kapers at 8:23 PM on January 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
I don't think this is the garden-variety boundary-pushing flirty guy who is overly friendly and informal and needs to be constantly managed by you asserting clear boundaries, which would be bad enough, and would make me not want the job. To me, it sounds like he REALLY, REALLY likes you, not just in the wanting-to-bone-you way; he wants you to be his girlfriend. He's already talking to you like you're his girlfriend. "My favorite person?" "The most ravishing creature I've ever seen?" Jesus. This guy probably thinks he's in love with you.
He also sounds slightly off (responding with an insult about your looks rather than compassion when he learned your mom was going into surgery?) and...intense, and I can see this going real bad. He already seems blind to your discomfort and I don't feel like he'd handle "rejection" (i.e., you asserting your reasonable boundaries) well.
In light of that, I don't know what would make a job worth the potential hell.
posted by kapers at 8:23 PM on January 22, 2015 [28 favorites]
He makes you uncomfortable and that's what counts. There is no rulebook for what behavior is appropriate. For what it's worth, reading your question, he sounds creepy to me. I personally would not hang out with this guy alone or give him personal information about myself. I don't think I'd even hang out with him and your friend. Your friend Lori sounds like she has bad judgement -- how on earth did she think that stripper comment was funny and not creepy as hell? I worry that she is feeding him stuff and that really needs to stop, but I doubt she gets it.
This might be dumb, but could you take the job and then later claim to be gay or something? Single and gay and NOT INTERESTED. Personally, I wouldn't take a job in a place I'd be uncomfortable in, but maybe if he thinks there is NO CHANCE he will back off a bit. Or, you know, maybe he's disgusting and thinking you're gay would just entice him more. Who knows. Either way, Lori is unfortunately a factor here and she may just torpedo any blow-off strategies you may have, which makes this extra tricky.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:27 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
This might be dumb, but could you take the job and then later claim to be gay or something? Single and gay and NOT INTERESTED. Personally, I wouldn't take a job in a place I'd be uncomfortable in, but maybe if he thinks there is NO CHANCE he will back off a bit. Or, you know, maybe he's disgusting and thinking you're gay would just entice him more. Who knows. Either way, Lori is unfortunately a factor here and she may just torpedo any blow-off strategies you may have, which makes this extra tricky.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:27 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
FWIW, I'm pretty sure he meant with your clothes on.
I doubt that. Or rather, it's about watching you walk and imagining you naked. Whether that is more or less gross is up to your personal criteria.
If you need the job then you need the job, but either way you will need to set boundaries and assert those limits. He's being inappropriate, but your current approach isn't working. Ideally the solution would involve never seeing him again, but that isn't simple in work settings.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:28 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I doubt that. Or rather, it's about watching you walk and imagining you naked. Whether that is more or less gross is up to your personal criteria.
If you need the job then you need the job, but either way you will need to set boundaries and assert those limits. He's being inappropriate, but your current approach isn't working. Ideally the solution would involve never seeing him again, but that isn't simple in work settings.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:28 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm also left wondering how much of Jon pushing for me to get hired is about him having a crush on me rather than a simple "friend of a friend" networking connection. Using someone's interest in me to get ahead makes me sick and I don't want to do it. Problem is, I don't have any other options.
I'd say that yes, it's pretty obvious that Jon is pushing to get you hired because he has a romantic interest in you. If you truly object to using his romantic interest in you to land the job, then I don't see that you have any choice but to withdraw your application and look elsewhere. Which is probably for the best.
If you decide to relax your ethics and take the job, knowing that you took advantage of the interest of a guy you can't stand - frankly, you won't look very good. I think it also sorta weakens any kind of sexual harassment claim you might make: he's made his interest in you obvious, and it doesn't sound like you've yet told him you're not interested in him. If you take the job and then turn around and accuse him of harassment, people are going to be puzzled and, I'd guess, unsympathetic. Imagine Lori saying "I don't get it - they were so close before she started working here..."
posted by doctor tough love at 10:12 PM on January 22, 2015
I'd say that yes, it's pretty obvious that Jon is pushing to get you hired because he has a romantic interest in you. If you truly object to using his romantic interest in you to land the job, then I don't see that you have any choice but to withdraw your application and look elsewhere. Which is probably for the best.
If you decide to relax your ethics and take the job, knowing that you took advantage of the interest of a guy you can't stand - frankly, you won't look very good. I think it also sorta weakens any kind of sexual harassment claim you might make: he's made his interest in you obvious, and it doesn't sound like you've yet told him you're not interested in him. If you take the job and then turn around and accuse him of harassment, people are going to be puzzled and, I'd guess, unsympathetic. Imagine Lori saying "I don't get it - they were so close before she started working here..."
posted by doctor tough love at 10:12 PM on January 22, 2015
Best answer: I don't care how desperate you are for a job, you don't need this job. Keep looking, and don't let this job distract you from your search.
posted by summerstorm at 10:41 PM on January 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 10:41 PM on January 22, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think taking the job sounds really risky. You should only do it if you are willing to confront him, before you accept the job, and determine whether or not he's actually romantically interested in you and make it clear that you're not romantically interested in him. Depending on his response to that, you could say something along the lines of "I'm worried that it would be awkward if we wind up working together" and see how he responds to that. He'll deny it, of course, but how he does so could be revealing.
But he sounds like Creepy McCreeper with little sense of propriety, an inappropriate sense of humour and probably not someone you want to supervise you, regardless. Potential romantic interest and disappointment in not having that interest reciprocated is just hammering the point home.
posted by Athanassiel at 11:09 PM on January 22, 2015
But he sounds like Creepy McCreeper with little sense of propriety, an inappropriate sense of humour and probably not someone you want to supervise you, regardless. Potential romantic interest and disappointment in not having that interest reciprocated is just hammering the point home.
posted by Athanassiel at 11:09 PM on January 22, 2015
"you're making a big deal out of nothing."
Actually no, you're making too small a deal out of something. For example:
I had to go to his workplace as an outside consultant for an event the following week and when I saw him he put his arm around me and said I looked "stunning as ever."
This is sexual harassment. It doesn't matter how much you do or don't like being hugged, unasked for touching and comments on your appearance are never appropriate ways to treat an outside contractor who is there in a professional capacity. So the harassment policies at this place don't matter, he's already walked all over them. And look at doctor tough love's comment, the gross victim blaming has already started, this is your future working with this guy.
So unfortunately you need to start shutting it down. Next time he tries to touch you move away so he can't. No hugging in professional settings, it's a pretty standard boundary to enforce. Next time he makes a comment about your appearance follow lollusc's script above. You don't need to be upset, just straight and neutral, then back to whatever you were talking about. Stop giving excuses to not go out with him, just say "No thanks, not interested". And probably stop hanging out with Lori at all because man, she's a shit stirrer passing on that gross message about watching you walk (note: clothing status doesn't matter, he was straight up sexualising you and it's gross and there was no reason for Lori to pass that on). Yes he may freak out and act like a total dick and he may decide not to hire you based on this. But the alternative is him continuing to act gross around you and I expect it will only escalate from where it already is. He may also get over it and dial it back and everything will be fine, stranger things have happened.
It sucks that it's been put on you to enforce these fairly normal boundaries and to shut this down. It's not fair and you shouldn't have to do it. But guys like this rely on your discomfort with making a scene or causing trouble and use it as an excuse to push and push, getting away with all kinds of stuff others wouldn't, like the too long hugs. In this case he's also leveraging his professional power over you. Which doubly sucks because then you lose out on a decent job because he can't keep his hands and his comments to yourself. But the only way to stop it is to assert yourself and make it stop unfortunately.
posted by shelleycat at 11:13 PM on January 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
Actually no, you're making too small a deal out of something. For example:
I had to go to his workplace as an outside consultant for an event the following week and when I saw him he put his arm around me and said I looked "stunning as ever."
This is sexual harassment. It doesn't matter how much you do or don't like being hugged, unasked for touching and comments on your appearance are never appropriate ways to treat an outside contractor who is there in a professional capacity. So the harassment policies at this place don't matter, he's already walked all over them. And look at doctor tough love's comment, the gross victim blaming has already started, this is your future working with this guy.
So unfortunately you need to start shutting it down. Next time he tries to touch you move away so he can't. No hugging in professional settings, it's a pretty standard boundary to enforce. Next time he makes a comment about your appearance follow lollusc's script above. You don't need to be upset, just straight and neutral, then back to whatever you were talking about. Stop giving excuses to not go out with him, just say "No thanks, not interested". And probably stop hanging out with Lori at all because man, she's a shit stirrer passing on that gross message about watching you walk (note: clothing status doesn't matter, he was straight up sexualising you and it's gross and there was no reason for Lori to pass that on). Yes he may freak out and act like a total dick and he may decide not to hire you based on this. But the alternative is him continuing to act gross around you and I expect it will only escalate from where it already is. He may also get over it and dial it back and everything will be fine, stranger things have happened.
It sucks that it's been put on you to enforce these fairly normal boundaries and to shut this down. It's not fair and you shouldn't have to do it. But guys like this rely on your discomfort with making a scene or causing trouble and use it as an excuse to push and push, getting away with all kinds of stuff others wouldn't, like the too long hugs. In this case he's also leveraging his professional power over you. Which doubly sucks because then you lose out on a decent job because he can't keep his hands and his comments to yourself. But the only way to stop it is to assert yourself and make it stop unfortunately.
posted by shelleycat at 11:13 PM on January 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I would be very very wary of taking this job. Sexual harassment is a real thing, and I have represented women who have been forced by work circumstances to get in bad situations. The only thing I could think of it in terms of taking the job is you could use it as a shield. That is to say, any advances after that would be off limits. AKA "now that we're colleagues I think it's best that that sort of talk be avoided." But it is still risky and I wouldn't do it. There's always another job.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:25 PM on January 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ironmouth at 11:25 PM on January 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you really need this job, talk to Lori and let her know you're worried Jon is only trying to get you hired because he has a thing for you and you think he's a good person but don't have those kind of feelings for him. Hopefully she'll pass the message on for you.
If not, the next time Jon is being flirty, give him a gracious out and say that maybe you're misreading the situation but you're worried he is only trying to get you hired...same as Lori spill but feel free to sugar coat it more. It seems like that would give you the best odds of getting the job with him knowing you're not interested. I'd bet he'd still be flirty but dial it back to much less uncomfortable bounds. It's up to you on if you think you can deal with it and if it's worth it.
posted by stray thoughts at 11:37 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
If not, the next time Jon is being flirty, give him a gracious out and say that maybe you're misreading the situation but you're worried he is only trying to get you hired...same as Lori spill but feel free to sugar coat it more. It seems like that would give you the best odds of getting the job with him knowing you're not interested. I'd bet he'd still be flirty but dial it back to much less uncomfortable bounds. It's up to you on if you think you can deal with it and if it's worth it.
posted by stray thoughts at 11:37 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Jon made a tasteless joke about my mom: "Ha ha, is the surgery to make her taller?" [...] He's never even met my mom, which means the joke was really about me, since I'm the one he has met.
Is this that "negging" I've heard so much about? If so: ew.
Agree with the chorus: you need to (metaphorically) talk louder and slower until he gets it. And there's a significant chance he'll say he gets it, then hassle you in some subtle way anyway. There's no way to completely derisk this situation.
So... if you take the job, what will you be giving up? If nothing, your opportunity costs are zero, and you should give it a go - it might work out, it might not, but at least you gave it a shot.
If you're already employed... much, much trickier, and I don't think anyone else can do that calculation for you.
posted by Leon at 3:24 AM on January 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is this that "negging" I've heard so much about? If so: ew.
Agree with the chorus: you need to (metaphorically) talk louder and slower until he gets it. And there's a significant chance he'll say he gets it, then hassle you in some subtle way anyway. There's no way to completely derisk this situation.
So... if you take the job, what will you be giving up? If nothing, your opportunity costs are zero, and you should give it a go - it might work out, it might not, but at least you gave it a shot.
If you're already employed... much, much trickier, and I don't think anyone else can do that calculation for you.
posted by Leon at 3:24 AM on January 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
You ought to listen to Kapers is what you ought to to. This guy acts like he's already owning you. Nothing good will come from it, actually no matter whether you are or aren't interested in him. I would stay far away from him (saying this as a man, who has heard people like this talk when no ladies were around. Seriously, his choice of topic, timing, joke matter and phrasing, as you describe it, is like a flag factory.)
posted by Namlit at 3:32 AM on January 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Namlit at 3:32 AM on January 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Are you interviewing with anyone besides Jon for this job?
If you really are desperate for this gig, then you need to have a serious conversation with Jon.
"Jon, I am not interested in dating you and I don't like the flirty banter. Before I accept this job, I really need to know that you can stop it, especially in the work environment. I think keeping our relationship professional and work oriented will be better for me. If this isn't possible, please let me know and I'll find another position elsewhere."
Honestly though, I'd give it a miss. Once you start working for him, you're at his mercy in so many ways and as much as you try to keep it professional, if he's no good at boundaries, you'll be miserable.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:38 AM on January 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you really are desperate for this gig, then you need to have a serious conversation with Jon.
"Jon, I am not interested in dating you and I don't like the flirty banter. Before I accept this job, I really need to know that you can stop it, especially in the work environment. I think keeping our relationship professional and work oriented will be better for me. If this isn't possible, please let me know and I'll find another position elsewhere."
Honestly though, I'd give it a miss. Once you start working for him, you're at his mercy in so many ways and as much as you try to keep it professional, if he's no good at boundaries, you'll be miserable.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:38 AM on January 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, I agree with everyone above who has noted that Lori seems to be playing a significant role in this toxic dynamic. You need to establish boundaries with her as well, not just with Jon. It's not clear from your question what exactly she is looking to get out of the situation -- maybe a threeway hookup, or she is just someone who gets off on enabling a gross person? There's no way to know reading this, but it's clear that she is making things worse, not better, and will probably continue to do so if you get hired.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 AM on January 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:15 AM on January 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm also left wondering how much of Jon pushing for me to get hired is about him having a crush on me rather than a simple "friend of a friend" networking connection.
Don't think that this isn't on his mind as well. I can very easily see it turning into "hey, I GOT you this job - you OWE me."
And stop talking to Lori, she clearly has boundary issues and she's trying to push you towards him. In fact, how do you know she isn't doing so because she somehow feels that her job is threatened if she doesn't help him?
I feel like a year from now you're going to be making another post saying "I took that job and I'm desperately miserable because I can't get away from my creepy sexual-harassing supervisor".
posted by vignettist at 8:41 AM on January 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Don't think that this isn't on his mind as well. I can very easily see it turning into "hey, I GOT you this job - you OWE me."
And stop talking to Lori, she clearly has boundary issues and she's trying to push you towards him. In fact, how do you know she isn't doing so because she somehow feels that her job is threatened if she doesn't help him?
I feel like a year from now you're going to be making another post saying "I took that job and I'm desperately miserable because I can't get away from my creepy sexual-harassing supervisor".
posted by vignettist at 8:41 AM on January 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
How desperate are you for a job? Because unless the answer is "about to lose everything I have" I would stay far far away from this job and this creeper.
To be blunt, sexual harassment policies aren't worth shit unless the company is willing to back you up. There are plenty of places where sexual harassment complaints are summarily ignored or even result in retaliation against the person being harassed. Even if they do take it seriously, Jon could easily undermine you by pointing out that you have been accepting of this behavior since before you even started working for him.
I would recommend that you start enforcing healthy boundaries with him and specifically call out his bad behavior. My guess would be that the job offer will evaporate once he sees that he can't take advantage of you. Your take on his behavior is overly kind-- I think it's more likely that he's grooming you/testing the waters to see how far he can push it with you.
Trust your instincts.
posted by fox problems at 10:00 AM on January 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
To be blunt, sexual harassment policies aren't worth shit unless the company is willing to back you up. There are plenty of places where sexual harassment complaints are summarily ignored or even result in retaliation against the person being harassed. Even if they do take it seriously, Jon could easily undermine you by pointing out that you have been accepting of this behavior since before you even started working for him.
I would recommend that you start enforcing healthy boundaries with him and specifically call out his bad behavior. My guess would be that the job offer will evaporate once he sees that he can't take advantage of you. Your take on his behavior is overly kind-- I think it's more likely that he's grooming you/testing the waters to see how far he can push it with you.
Trust your instincts.
posted by fox problems at 10:00 AM on January 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was looking at my recent comments page and realised that up there when I said "you're making too small a deal out of something" it sounds like I think you're doing something wrong. And really I don't. This situation is pretty common actually and often you can just paste on a fake smile and move on, why stir up trouble? Especially when so many people act like this kind of things is normal and OK, people like Lori for example. You've been stuck in a shitty situation and I think that you've handled it fine so far.
But it's not OK. And this guy is pushing all your boundaries and doing so even in professional settings. So fake smiles and deflection and escape is no longer working for you. And he's taking advantage of you, even if he doesn't mean to, using his power over you both as a man (and therefore supported by society in his entitlement to hug all women as creepily as he likes and to be offended when they hate it) and as a potential boss. This is why I said it's unfortunate but now is time to shut it down. I think Jim has gone beyond plausible deniability with how he treated you as an outside contractor, he would never put his arm around a male contractor and comment on their appearance. Whether you get this job or not, and I really hope you find something better, the way you've been dealing with this so far doesn't work so I think it's time for a change.
Running away from the whole mess and finding a job somewhere else is a perfectly viable option by the way. Because creepers like Jon, ug, so not a can of worms I'd be willing to open. Either way I hope you find a good resolution.
posted by shelleycat at 12:07 PM on January 23, 2015
But it's not OK. And this guy is pushing all your boundaries and doing so even in professional settings. So fake smiles and deflection and escape is no longer working for you. And he's taking advantage of you, even if he doesn't mean to, using his power over you both as a man (and therefore supported by society in his entitlement to hug all women as creepily as he likes and to be offended when they hate it) and as a potential boss. This is why I said it's unfortunate but now is time to shut it down. I think Jim has gone beyond plausible deniability with how he treated you as an outside contractor, he would never put his arm around a male contractor and comment on their appearance. Whether you get this job or not, and I really hope you find something better, the way you've been dealing with this so far doesn't work so I think it's time for a change.
Running away from the whole mess and finding a job somewhere else is a perfectly viable option by the way. Because creepers like Jon, ug, so not a can of worms I'd be willing to open. Either way I hope you find a good resolution.
posted by shelleycat at 12:07 PM on January 23, 2015
Best answer: Oh, and if you do take this job? Don't let anybody tell you you got ahead because you were using his feelings for you to your advantage. You got ahead in spite of having to fend off the inappropriate and unprofessional advances of a man abusing his power.
I really hope you don't feel you have to take the job, though.
posted by kapers at 12:18 PM on January 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
I really hope you don't feel you have to take the job, though.
posted by kapers at 12:18 PM on January 23, 2015 [5 favorites]
Ugh, I would not take this job. He's not going to stop, not going to magically become professional once you're working together. I agree that telling him to quit it asap to see his reaction will give you an idea on whether or not you should risk it, but it remains a pretty risky situation regardless. And wow, definitely don't lie and say you're gay to put him off unless you plan to never date again during the time you work there, or he'll just be super passive aggressive about the whole thing, I imagine. You'd also be asking your friend Lori to be complicit in that lie.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:39 PM on January 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 12:39 PM on January 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: "you're making a big deal out of nothing."
I did not take that to mean on absolute terms but the fact of the matter is that being hit on relentlessly by assholes, belittled and considered cute but not to be taken seriously is so ubiquitous that I wouldn't even give it a second thought because it's just reality. It's common but that does not mean it's right, excusable, funny, etc, it's just the way it is. Women really haven't made much head way in the work world as far as being taken seriously UNLESS you are willing to play their game and ace it. Play along with the foolish banter (they're idiots, after all), but do your work and ace it. Don't be afraid to clearly and concisely state your objectives and accomplishments at meeting or in other discourse. Why on earth would you not take this job if you want it? Because some douche wants to make you feel small? I don't think that is wise, take the job and prove you are so far above this juvenile, he doesn't make a blip on your radar. Your awesomeness will be the center of attention, not your discomfort. You aren't giving in or being a fool by taking this job, you are going to be his boss some day. Just know your shit inside and out, don't play into sexism.
posted by waving at 6:17 PM on January 23, 2015
I did not take that to mean on absolute terms but the fact of the matter is that being hit on relentlessly by assholes, belittled and considered cute but not to be taken seriously is so ubiquitous that I wouldn't even give it a second thought because it's just reality. It's common but that does not mean it's right, excusable, funny, etc, it's just the way it is. Women really haven't made much head way in the work world as far as being taken seriously UNLESS you are willing to play their game and ace it. Play along with the foolish banter (they're idiots, after all), but do your work and ace it. Don't be afraid to clearly and concisely state your objectives and accomplishments at meeting or in other discourse. Why on earth would you not take this job if you want it? Because some douche wants to make you feel small? I don't think that is wise, take the job and prove you are so far above this juvenile, he doesn't make a blip on your radar. Your awesomeness will be the center of attention, not your discomfort. You aren't giving in or being a fool by taking this job, you are going to be his boss some day. Just know your shit inside and out, don't play into sexism.
posted by waving at 6:17 PM on January 23, 2015
Unless you're going to end up homeless next week if you don't take this job, don't take it. This guy REALLY REALLY REALLY WANTS TO FUCK YOU. He's only going to get pushier if you have the job. You'll see him constantly. He'll have all kinds of leverage over you to get you to cave in and put out if you want to keep your job. I'm actively scared for you reading this.
I think if you take this job, the possibilities are all bad:
(a) you have to quit to get away from him
(b) you end up fired when you don't put out for him
(c) you end up putting out for him to keep your job
(d) sexual harassment/lawsuit stuff ends up being a black mark on your career record, making it hard for you to get hired elsewhere.
(e) When you try to get hired somewhere else and they want to talk to your supervisor, what are you going to do?
I don't think you can last in this situation for long. Please, please, don't do it. Hell, start avoiding Lori for that matter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:38 PM on January 23, 2015
I think if you take this job, the possibilities are all bad:
(a) you have to quit to get away from him
(b) you end up fired when you don't put out for him
(c) you end up putting out for him to keep your job
(d) sexual harassment/lawsuit stuff ends up being a black mark on your career record, making it hard for you to get hired elsewhere.
(e) When you try to get hired somewhere else and they want to talk to your supervisor, what are you going to do?
I don't think you can last in this situation for long. Please, please, don't do it. Hell, start avoiding Lori for that matter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:38 PM on January 23, 2015
" he put his arm around me and said I looked "stunning as ever." I thanked him but didn't flirt back. That night he called and said he had put in a good word with his boss (a woman) for me about getting the job."
He's doing these things, comparing you to strippers and texting you after hours. To me it seems pretty obvious that this guy is trying to 'purchase' you by implying that if you allow this behavior and smile that he'll give you something in return- a job. He feels your desperation and is using it to his advantage.
I really think both Lori and this guy see you as a bit of a pushover... which is unfortunately a very common thing that people of short stature have to deal with. People automatically size you up and think you'll put up with their crap. Lori's a trouble-maker and she's encouraging this behavior too.
I understand that you're in a bit of a bind, but if you stay there I guarantee you it's only going to get worse. The energy you're spending on this would be better spend looking for a job elsewhere.
posted by manderin at 2:09 AM on January 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
He's doing these things, comparing you to strippers and texting you after hours. To me it seems pretty obvious that this guy is trying to 'purchase' you by implying that if you allow this behavior and smile that he'll give you something in return- a job. He feels your desperation and is using it to his advantage.
I really think both Lori and this guy see you as a bit of a pushover... which is unfortunately a very common thing that people of short stature have to deal with. People automatically size you up and think you'll put up with their crap. Lori's a trouble-maker and she's encouraging this behavior too.
I understand that you're in a bit of a bind, but if you stay there I guarantee you it's only going to get worse. The energy you're spending on this would be better spend looking for a job elsewhere.
posted by manderin at 2:09 AM on January 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I keep thinking that if only Jon would stop fawning over me and just relax and be a friend that it would be a great place to work. I do think he's a decent and well-meaning guy who doesn't realize these advances are unwelcome. And there's a little part of me that keeps whispering, "you're making a big deal out of nothing."
There you go. I think this is your answer. Everything he has said or done to you is uncomfortable only in that it is unwelcome. So make that clear to him in a kind, honest and straightforward way. Only after you do this will you know if you're making a big deal out of nothing.
posted by KMoney at 8:36 AM on January 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
There you go. I think this is your answer. Everything he has said or done to you is uncomfortable only in that it is unwelcome. So make that clear to him in a kind, honest and straightforward way. Only after you do this will you know if you're making a big deal out of nothing.
posted by KMoney at 8:36 AM on January 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Sexual harassment can happen anywhere and here at least you have a head's up. Maybe some people work in different fields with higher demand, but you used the word -need- and if this is a great opportunity for you, and you need the job, good lord take the job.
Alongside taking it though, you need to step up the policing of your boundaries. There's a gazillion strategies for this, different ones will work differently with different people, with some people nothing will work. I think you should look for resources on dealing with this, including maybe a career coach type person who has experience and can make suggestions for you. If it's a good opportunity it will be worth it. You can ask another question here. Whatever else you do or don't do, document document document.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:40 PM on January 29, 2015
Alongside taking it though, you need to step up the policing of your boundaries. There's a gazillion strategies for this, different ones will work differently with different people, with some people nothing will work. I think you should look for resources on dealing with this, including maybe a career coach type person who has experience and can make suggestions for you. If it's a good opportunity it will be worth it. You can ask another question here. Whatever else you do or don't do, document document document.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:40 PM on January 29, 2015
Response by poster: A quick follow-up: Thanks for all the great advice! I decided that if he made another comment, I would address it at the time and if he withdrew the job offer, then fine. Meanwhile, I would apply for other jobs. He made another comment, I asked him to keep it professional, and he apologized. He hasn't been inappropriate since, and it still seems like he will help me get the job, though that could just be an act. I'm not sure. I did apply for other jobs, and there is one I'm much more interested in. I'm hoping that was the end of it with him.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 3:58 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 3:58 PM on February 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
There's nothing wrong with your head, he's being over familiar and hitting on you. Which is extremely bad form for someone who might be boss in the future.
You should definitely be setting and maintaining boundaries with him. Far better to do it now, than after he's your actual boss and you actually need him for something.
The great thing about setting boundaries is that it'll make it crystal clear whether he's valuing you as employee or as an object to brush up against to try to have have sex with.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 PM on January 22, 2015 [2 favorites]