Lights out: Why did my overhead lights all fail at the same time?
January 14, 2015 4:26 PM Subscribe
Does anyone know anything about electricity?
Here's the situation. About a week ago, the overhead lights in my dining room and living room went out simultaneously -- we saw it happen. There is another light (kitchen overhead) on that circuit that is now out as well. I think it was turned off at the time, so we only noticed it later, but I am guessing it went out at the same time as the others.
The circuit breaker wasn't tripped, but I went ahead and switched it off and on again anyway. The label on the breaker indicates that two other lights are on that circuit, and they are working fine. The three affected lights have halogen bulbs, the two unaffected do not. I have tried replacing the lightbulbs, but the old bulbs appear intact, and new bulbs didn't work either.
The house is old, but the electrical system is all recently updated. I even had the power company come out and check the quality of the power coming into the house (as some googling indicated it could be related to too much voltage coming in), but it all checked out fine.
Any ideas what's going on? Hoping to avoid paying an electrician to come out, especially if it's something stupid.
Many thanks!
The circuit breaker wasn't tripped, but I went ahead and switched it off and on again anyway. The label on the breaker indicates that two other lights are on that circuit, and they are working fine. The three affected lights have halogen bulbs, the two unaffected do not. I have tried replacing the lightbulbs, but the old bulbs appear intact, and new bulbs didn't work either.
The house is old, but the electrical system is all recently updated. I even had the power company come out and check the quality of the power coming into the house (as some googling indicated it could be related to too much voltage coming in), but it all checked out fine.
Any ideas what's going on? Hoping to avoid paying an electrician to come out, especially if it's something stupid.
Many thanks!
Don't trust the label. Switch the circuit breaker off and test the other lights alleged to be on the circuit.
posted by beagle at 4:35 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by beagle at 4:35 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
When you say they're halogen bulbs, what does that mean? If you're talking about halogen MR-type small bulbs with a 2-pin base, you may likely have the kind that runs on 12V instead of 120V, in which case you most likely need to replace your transformer.
If a different type of bulb, check whether they're getting necessary power. If you have a multimeter, check that there's actually voltage when the switch is on. If it's a standard screwbase socket, replace with an incandescent, does it run?
posted by aimedwander at 4:44 PM on January 14, 2015
If a different type of bulb, check whether they're getting necessary power. If you have a multimeter, check that there's actually voltage when the switch is on. If it's a standard screwbase socket, replace with an incandescent, does it run?
posted by aimedwander at 4:44 PM on January 14, 2015
Response by poster: I don't know what's upstream on the circuit from these lights -- is there an easy way to determine that? The breaker box is roughly right below the "first" and "second" lights of the three.
I used a no-contact power tester on the switch and near one of the bulb connections, and it showed positive for current.
Just turned off the breaker, and can confirm that the other working lights are also on it (they are now out.) With the power off I pulled off the switch plates and looked inside, and there is nothing obviously disconnected/loose. Also the tester isn't showing positive now, so it would seem like it wasn't a false positive when the breaker was switched on. Sigh.
On preview: @aimedwander They are r7s type bulbs (straight, with contacts on either end,) that claim to take 110/120/130V.
posted by TonyRobots at 4:52 PM on January 14, 2015
I used a no-contact power tester on the switch and near one of the bulb connections, and it showed positive for current.
Just turned off the breaker, and can confirm that the other working lights are also on it (they are now out.) With the power off I pulled off the switch plates and looked inside, and there is nothing obviously disconnected/loose. Also the tester isn't showing positive now, so it would seem like it wasn't a false positive when the breaker was switched on. Sigh.
On preview: @aimedwander They are r7s type bulbs (straight, with contacts on either end,) that claim to take 110/120/130V.
posted by TonyRobots at 4:52 PM on January 14, 2015
Are there gfci outlets before on the circuit? If that gets tripped the remainder of the circuit goes out.
This is a distinct possibility. See if any of your receptacles on that circuit have of a set of small buttons between the outlets, labeled something like TEST and RESET. Click the TEST button then the RESET on each one and see if that does it.
If the RESET button won't stay depressed, you likely have a short. The most common thing that happens is that the receptacle wiring has come in contact with the metal receptacle box, or the ground wire. It's not hard to fix but if you're not comfortable working on simple wiring, get help from someone who knows what they are doing, or hire someone.
(This just happened to me, and it took me HOURS to track down the problem. Slight vibrations and expansion/contraction over the years can make the wire move just enough to "suddenly" create a short circuit.)
posted by The Deej at 4:58 PM on January 14, 2015
This is a distinct possibility. See if any of your receptacles on that circuit have of a set of small buttons between the outlets, labeled something like TEST and RESET. Click the TEST button then the RESET on each one and see if that does it.
If the RESET button won't stay depressed, you likely have a short. The most common thing that happens is that the receptacle wiring has come in contact with the metal receptacle box, or the ground wire. It's not hard to fix but if you're not comfortable working on simple wiring, get help from someone who knows what they are doing, or hire someone.
(This just happened to me, and it took me HOURS to track down the problem. Slight vibrations and expansion/contraction over the years can make the wire move just enough to "suddenly" create a short circuit.)
posted by The Deej at 4:58 PM on January 14, 2015
Response by poster: Nope. There aren't any GFCI outlets on that circuit, as far as I can tell, and I went ahead and did the TEST/RESET cycle on all of the GFCIs I could find anyway. None of the circuits had been popped, and all reset fine after test.
Also did a little more troubleshooting with the no-contact tester. I turned the breaker back on, and:
Kitchen switch is hot.
Dining room switch is hot, and dining room fixture is hot (with switch OFF)
Living room switch is not hot. (This is the switch I would guess is furthest 'downstream,' based on its location.)
Seems weird that the dining room fixture would be getting power with the switch off.
Starting to think I need a pro.
posted by TonyRobots at 5:09 PM on January 14, 2015
Also did a little more troubleshooting with the no-contact tester. I turned the breaker back on, and:
Kitchen switch is hot.
Dining room switch is hot, and dining room fixture is hot (with switch OFF)
Living room switch is not hot. (This is the switch I would guess is furthest 'downstream,' based on its location.)
Seems weird that the dining room fixture would be getting power with the switch off.
Starting to think I need a pro.
posted by TonyRobots at 5:09 PM on January 14, 2015
If the wiring was recently re-done, you probably need a different pro.
posted by straw at 5:23 PM on January 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by straw at 5:23 PM on January 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Dining room switch is hot, and dining room fixture is hot (with switch OFF)
This could indicate the switch is wired up incorrectly. Due to the nature of AC the two wires aren't + and -, they're hot and neutral. The switch will interrupt the circuit wherever you put it, but it's safer to switch the hot wire, so that when the switch is OFF as little as possible is live.
I suppose if your neutral wire is cut somewhere upstream from the kitchen, your no-contact-tester might show it hot while your lights can't get any power from the circuit. But the fact that the fixtures are reading hot when the switches are off suggests that you have other problems too. I would recommend hiring an electrician. A different electrician from whoever "recently updated" things.
posted by aubilenon at 5:46 PM on January 14, 2015
This could indicate the switch is wired up incorrectly. Due to the nature of AC the two wires aren't + and -, they're hot and neutral. The switch will interrupt the circuit wherever you put it, but it's safer to switch the hot wire, so that when the switch is OFF as little as possible is live.
I suppose if your neutral wire is cut somewhere upstream from the kitchen, your no-contact-tester might show it hot while your lights can't get any power from the circuit. But the fact that the fixtures are reading hot when the switches are off suggests that you have other problems too. I would recommend hiring an electrician. A different electrician from whoever "recently updated" things.
posted by aubilenon at 5:46 PM on January 14, 2015
I had something similar happen in my current home, due to a previous owner beyond my control addicted to DIY. In that case, it was a screwed-up wiring issue. Nthing that an electrician is called for ASAP.
posted by thomas j wise at 7:03 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 7:03 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
If an attic is above, poke your head up there to make sure everything's OK; a ceiling fixture going out was the first sign of rats for our neighbors, and leaks can also do this -- from the roof or an upstairs bathroom.
posted by jamjam at 7:16 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 7:16 PM on January 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: 99.9% - You have an open splice somewhere. Without knowing the topology of your wiring the fix will involve systematically checking all the boxes on that circuit and checking/redoing all the splices.
.1% - there is a failure in one of the cables outside of a box. Possible causes include rodent damage and nail damage or a parachute splice (illegal splice made outside of a box). The cable would need to be isolated and replaced/repaired.
posted by Mitheral at 8:52 PM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
.1% - there is a failure in one of the cables outside of a box. Possible causes include rodent damage and nail damage or a parachute splice (illegal splice made outside of a box). The cable would need to be isolated and replaced/repaired.
posted by Mitheral at 8:52 PM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Have you recently changed any bulbs? One time we unknowingly replaced a halogen bulb with one that was much brighter, and thus much hotter. We quite liked how bright the kitchen was for about the first three days before the heat melted the wiring coming to the fixture.
posted by sldownard at 10:29 PM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sldownard at 10:29 PM on January 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
My thought was there was an illegal splice (not to code) issue somewhere along the "new" wiring.
I'm going to rant here for a second.... I have seen some nasty illegal wiring over the years and it never fails to piss me off. I used to have this one electrician (retired now) that I woulda trusted with my life (and technically, I was) he was so old school by the book fabulous. His work passed inspection every time and the building dept never ever had to ask to have his work corrected.
In your shoes, I would have someone like that come in and assess your entire "new" system.
Your safety and peace of mind is worth it at this point. Your house inspector when you bought the place might've missed some crucial things.
Anecdata: Electrical and plumbing done right rarely fails and is good for a lifetime, depending. Substandard work and supplies pretty much always yields mysteries or failures like you're experiencing.
It'll get fixed. See this as a blessing, not an expense :))
posted by jbenben at 11:28 PM on January 14, 2015
I'm going to rant here for a second.... I have seen some nasty illegal wiring over the years and it never fails to piss me off. I used to have this one electrician (retired now) that I woulda trusted with my life (and technically, I was) he was so old school by the book fabulous. His work passed inspection every time and the building dept never ever had to ask to have his work corrected.
In your shoes, I would have someone like that come in and assess your entire "new" system.
Your safety and peace of mind is worth it at this point. Your house inspector when you bought the place might've missed some crucial things.
Anecdata: Electrical and plumbing done right rarely fails and is good for a lifetime, depending. Substandard work and supplies pretty much always yields mysteries or failures like you're experiencing.
It'll get fixed. See this as a blessing, not an expense :))
posted by jbenben at 11:28 PM on January 14, 2015
a ceiling fixture going out was the first sign of rats for our neighbors
Or mice, even. This reminded me that in our old house mice chewed through a wire and knocked out a circuit. I can't remember how we located that break but to fix it we ended up with a junction box with blank cover somewhere in the middle of a wall.
posted by beagle at 5:53 AM on January 15, 2015
Or mice, even. This reminded me that in our old house mice chewed through a wire and knocked out a circuit. I can't remember how we located that break but to fix it we ended up with a junction box with blank cover somewhere in the middle of a wall.
posted by beagle at 5:53 AM on January 15, 2015
Response by poster: Yes, my current theory is SQUIRRELS. The Professional* will be here in 10 minutes. I'll let you all know how it turns out, and thanks for the help!
* I hope his name is Leon.
posted by TonyRobots at 9:53 AM on January 16, 2015
* I hope his name is Leon.
posted by TonyRobots at 9:53 AM on January 16, 2015
Response by poster: And to defend the electrical work in the house, by all accounts it's top-rate. But very likely not rodent-proof.
posted by TonyRobots at 9:54 AM on January 16, 2015
posted by TonyRobots at 9:54 AM on January 16, 2015
Response by poster: Well, it's all a bit anticlimactic, in that I still don't understand how it all adds up, but looks like a few things just needed some re-tightening. A bulb at the end of the circuit blew (hard -- there were burn marks), which somehow caused these problems? Or was a result of them? I don't know. It's all working now, though. Sorry if that's an unsatisfying conclusion, and thanks for the help.
posted by TonyRobots at 7:41 PM on January 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by TonyRobots at 7:41 PM on January 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Glad it's working. The bulb blowing may have just been coincidental, or caused from a surge.
In any case, yes, wires can come loose over the years and get enough play in them to touch ground or another wire. It is a frustrating problem to track down. The only way I finally tracked my issue down (described above) was to take out every receptacle in the circuit and inspect them. I saw scorch marks on one which showed that it had shorted against the housing. Just a 5 minute adjustment to fix, but finding it was a pain.
posted by The Deej at 12:06 PM on January 20, 2015
In any case, yes, wires can come loose over the years and get enough play in them to touch ground or another wire. It is a frustrating problem to track down. The only way I finally tracked my issue down (described above) was to take out every receptacle in the circuit and inspect them. I saw scorch marks on one which showed that it had shorted against the housing. Just a 5 minute adjustment to fix, but finding it was a pain.
posted by The Deej at 12:06 PM on January 20, 2015
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posted by TheAdamist at 4:35 PM on January 14, 2015