Was my daughter bit or scratched by a dog?
December 27, 2014 3:03 PM Subscribe
My in-law's dog licking up crumbs from my 18-month old daughter's car seat. My daughter toddled over and the dog turned his head sharply and she got a cut under her eye from the dog's tooth. I always thought any action with a dog's mouth was considered a bite but my MIL corrected me and told the urgent care doctor it is a scratch from a tooth. Which was it? Is she trying to protect her dog? I'm confused.
My apologies if this seems jumbled. This happened this morning and I am still upset by the situation. We took her to the doctor and she's physically fine. She's up on her tetanus shot and the dog is also up to date on his shots.
Here's an explanation as best as I can describe:
My FIL was in the living room practicing an instrument and my daughter and the dog were in the room. I was in a different room.
The car seat is in the living room in the opposite corner of where FIL is practicing. The dog goes over to it and starts to lick the seat because there are crumbs in the crevices.
My daughter goes over to the dog and the seat and gets injured.
Where I'm confused:
While I'm comforting my daughter, my MIL says the dog protective around food and that's the only time he's "like that."
I ask what happened and MIL says the dog scratched her. I don't ask any further follow ups and I assume scratch meant with his paw/nail.
While we're in urgent care, the doctor asks what happened, I say the dog scratched her with his paw so I'm concerned about germs. My MIL corrects me and says that the dog's tooth scratched her. I then say so the dog bit her? She says no, it was a scratch from the tooth.
I then just focus on what this means for my daughter's treatment rather than whatever role the dog played.
We have a dog at home so my daughter is comfortable around them. She is 18-months old and she does know how to gently pet a dog but we still have to reinforce that lesson at times.
My questions:
The dog turned his head fast because he was being territorial of the food, which I consider being aggressive, so that isn't considered a bite?
I know this was an accident. I don't want to ask to do anything dramatic because I don't think the dog is dangerous (but maybe I'm in shock?) Is there any resolution I should discuss such as keeping the dog in a bedroom when we come over or having them see a dog trainer?
I just don't know how to view this reasonably or rationally at this time and I would appreciate the hivemind's help.
My apologies if this seems jumbled. This happened this morning and I am still upset by the situation. We took her to the doctor and she's physically fine. She's up on her tetanus shot and the dog is also up to date on his shots.
Here's an explanation as best as I can describe:
My FIL was in the living room practicing an instrument and my daughter and the dog were in the room. I was in a different room.
The car seat is in the living room in the opposite corner of where FIL is practicing. The dog goes over to it and starts to lick the seat because there are crumbs in the crevices.
My daughter goes over to the dog and the seat and gets injured.
Where I'm confused:
While I'm comforting my daughter, my MIL says the dog protective around food and that's the only time he's "like that."
I ask what happened and MIL says the dog scratched her. I don't ask any further follow ups and I assume scratch meant with his paw/nail.
While we're in urgent care, the doctor asks what happened, I say the dog scratched her with his paw so I'm concerned about germs. My MIL corrects me and says that the dog's tooth scratched her. I then say so the dog bit her? She says no, it was a scratch from the tooth.
I then just focus on what this means for my daughter's treatment rather than whatever role the dog played.
We have a dog at home so my daughter is comfortable around them. She is 18-months old and she does know how to gently pet a dog but we still have to reinforce that lesson at times.
My questions:
The dog turned his head fast because he was being territorial of the food, which I consider being aggressive, so that isn't considered a bite?
I know this was an accident. I don't want to ask to do anything dramatic because I don't think the dog is dangerous (but maybe I'm in shock?) Is there any resolution I should discuss such as keeping the dog in a bedroom when we come over or having them see a dog trainer?
I just don't know how to view this reasonably or rationally at this time and I would appreciate the hivemind's help.
Sounds like your daughter was nipped and not scratched. Food aggression can be trained out of many dogs, but it can be a long, involved process. Your in-laws should work on this with a trainer, not only for your daughter's safety, but their own, as well. And I know it's really difficult, but young children shouldn't be left with dogs if they are not both being supervised - your father-in-law was there but sounds occupied.
posted by umwhat at 3:16 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by umwhat at 3:16 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
Resource guarding food is a specific behavioural problem and is not the same as "aggression". It does sound like the dog whipped round with a defensive snarl and caught your kid- nasty, but I think it's right not to call it a bite. Probably the nature of the wound is the most compelling evidence there, though.
Either way, it sounds like this dog does need to either be in a separate room or under closer control when kids (your kid) are around. And absolutely make sure there's no food about if dog and kid will be interacting. Your kid being generally "good" with dogs won't make a difference as the dog is a resource guarder. If the MIL makes a fuss about keeping the dog under closer control, that is really not cool. Toddlers and dogs need to be kept safe from one another, especially when the dog has this known problem.
Resource guarding is a problem that absolutely can be worked on. You know your relationship with your MIL best, whether suggesting a trainer or a book like this would go down well or indeed be at all efficacious. But don't try and work on it yourself or involve the kid in any way if you're thinking along the lines of "getting them used to each other" or anything like that. MIL should deal with her dog's problem, in her own time. You just keep your kid out of harm's way.
posted by mymbleth at 3:17 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Either way, it sounds like this dog does need to either be in a separate room or under closer control when kids (your kid) are around. And absolutely make sure there's no food about if dog and kid will be interacting. Your kid being generally "good" with dogs won't make a difference as the dog is a resource guarder. If the MIL makes a fuss about keeping the dog under closer control, that is really not cool. Toddlers and dogs need to be kept safe from one another, especially when the dog has this known problem.
Resource guarding is a problem that absolutely can be worked on. You know your relationship with your MIL best, whether suggesting a trainer or a book like this would go down well or indeed be at all efficacious. But don't try and work on it yourself or involve the kid in any way if you're thinking along the lines of "getting them used to each other" or anything like that. MIL should deal with her dog's problem, in her own time. You just keep your kid out of harm's way.
posted by mymbleth at 3:17 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Animal Control officers in Raleigh seem to have the rule that a tooth breaking the skin = a bite. My husband got a similar "scratch" from a neighborhood dog that didn't even break the skin, and Animal Control still treated it as a minor bite for their purposes. That's perhaps not THE DEFINITIVE WORD, but it's a bit of information that might be relevant.
posted by Coatlicue at 3:18 PM on December 27, 2014
posted by Coatlicue at 3:18 PM on December 27, 2014
It's not clear to me whether the dog intended to nip her or if he just turned suddenly. If the latter, I wouldn't do anything differently; accidents happen. If the former, I would be careful to keep them separated if food is anywhere in the vicinity.
posted by metasarah at 3:19 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 3:19 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I've been bit and scratched by many a dog, and I think that this situation was one where the dog's mouth was open in a territorial way, and your baby got her under eye area grazed with a tooth. That is not the same thing as a bite. IME dog bites are recognized by urgent care docs as such and if the doc didn't provide an alternate analysis after your MIL corrected you, he or she didn't feel like there was more to add because while scary, it wasn't serious and will heal just fine.
My recommendation would be to say to your MIL, "I'm still a little nervous about what happened with daughter + dog. You mentioned that he's territorial about food, and since there were crumbs on the car seat, that attracted him. I will try to make sure that in the future her car seat is clean, but the next time any of us see him going towards daughter, let's redirect him until she's old enough to engage with him more personally." If she fights you on it and insists that her dog did nothing wrong, stay the course. "I love dog, and daughter loves dog, and I know you love daughter. I don't want her to be afraid of the dog. If I see him moving towards her, I am going to redirect him. Partner will do the same. Please help us by doing that too so that when she's ready, she doesn't get accidentally nipped or grazed again."
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:20 PM on December 27, 2014 [20 favorites]
My recommendation would be to say to your MIL, "I'm still a little nervous about what happened with daughter + dog. You mentioned that he's territorial about food, and since there were crumbs on the car seat, that attracted him. I will try to make sure that in the future her car seat is clean, but the next time any of us see him going towards daughter, let's redirect him until she's old enough to engage with him more personally." If she fights you on it and insists that her dog did nothing wrong, stay the course. "I love dog, and daughter loves dog, and I know you love daughter. I don't want her to be afraid of the dog. If I see him moving towards her, I am going to redirect him. Partner will do the same. Please help us by doing that too so that when she's ready, she doesn't get accidentally nipped or grazed again."
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:20 PM on December 27, 2014 [20 favorites]
I've spent the last week in a house with three dogs, one a 50lb puppy, all playing rough with each other, and this kind of thing just happens. What I imagine happened here was that the dog whipped his head around protectively, mouth open, and your kid's face got caught in the crossfire. It's unfortunate but certainly an accident. A bite would be much more intentional, likely would have had more contact than just the one tooth, and been a much bigger problem for the toddler.
Currently I count four tooth scratches visible just on my hands from the last few days since I've been wrestling with the family dogs and (on purpose) jerking toys around their faces. I'm just collateral damage.
This is a good time to teach your kid not to get close to an animal while it's eating and also a good time for your mom to condition her dog to gentle eating so it won't react as protectively in the future.
posted by phunniemee at 3:23 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Currently I count four tooth scratches visible just on my hands from the last few days since I've been wrestling with the family dogs and (on purpose) jerking toys around their faces. I'm just collateral damage.
This is a good time to teach your kid not to get close to an animal while it's eating and also a good time for your mom to condition her dog to gentle eating so it won't react as protectively in the future.
posted by phunniemee at 3:23 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
It could have been a warning nip, but sometimes, it really is just a bump. One of my dogs has a little scar under her eye from running into the other dog during some rambunctious playing. There was no aggression at all.
So it could be either one or something in between. There's really no way to know for sure.
That said, I am pretty conservative about that sort of thing, but I think any kid that young should be very closely supervised around strange dogs. And maybe counterintuitively, kids who are more familiar with dogs tend to need more supervision sometimes. If they have a dog at home, they seem more likely to treat strange dogs the way they do their familiar ones. I've had very small children run right up to my dogs to hug them or jump on them or kiss them on the face, just because that's what they do with their dogs at home.
I'm sorry your baby got hurt.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:30 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
So it could be either one or something in between. There's really no way to know for sure.
That said, I am pretty conservative about that sort of thing, but I think any kid that young should be very closely supervised around strange dogs. And maybe counterintuitively, kids who are more familiar with dogs tend to need more supervision sometimes. If they have a dog at home, they seem more likely to treat strange dogs the way they do their familiar ones. I've had very small children run right up to my dogs to hug them or jump on them or kiss them on the face, just because that's what they do with their dogs at home.
I'm sorry your baby got hurt.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:30 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've had a variety of different dog species throughout my life and am always careful to watch them like a hawk around little kids because both can be so unpredictable. Even still, none of my dogs -- even the ones who were super territorial about their food -- has ever nipped or snapped at a child. You have to train them early and often to learn that humans are different from other dogs and that is not acceptable behavior.
I'm concerned that your mother-in-law treated the incident so cavalierly. Whether it was a "nip" or a "scratch" doesn't matter; that's overly-aggressive behavior and I think you're right in wanting to keep the dog away from your child on future visits, especially since your m-i-l doesn't seem to be taking it seriously and you can't depend on her or your f-i-l to properly supervise the dog when your child is in the room. This is a serious issue. I wouldn't back down. Your daughter could be really injured next time. Don't let your in laws guilt trip you into thinking your concerns are overblown.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 3:33 PM on December 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
I'm concerned that your mother-in-law treated the incident so cavalierly. Whether it was a "nip" or a "scratch" doesn't matter; that's overly-aggressive behavior and I think you're right in wanting to keep the dog away from your child on future visits, especially since your m-i-l doesn't seem to be taking it seriously and you can't depend on her or your f-i-l to properly supervise the dog when your child is in the room. This is a serious issue. I wouldn't back down. Your daughter could be really injured next time. Don't let your in laws guilt trip you into thinking your concerns are overblown.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 3:33 PM on December 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
I've been scratched by my dogs tooth playing with her. Not to the point of it breaking the skin but I've had welts. I guess the difference is that a bite would be her closing her teeth on me whereas what actually happens is that she is waving her open mouth around going "arrrrrr" and a tooth bangs against my hand?
posted by fshgrl at 3:42 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 3:42 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Saying the dog is "always like that around food" is the red flag here.
I mean, I've known a few people over the years that habitually downplay their dog's aggression with that excuse or similar. Someone up top is right, both dogs and children are unpredictable. I have no idea how you address this, though.
posted by jbenben at 3:46 PM on December 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
I mean, I've known a few people over the years that habitually downplay their dog's aggression with that excuse or similar. Someone up top is right, both dogs and children are unpredictable. I have no idea how you address this, though.
posted by jbenben at 3:46 PM on December 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I'm sorry you're upset and glad your little one is ok.
I've had a variety of different dog species throughout my life and am always careful to watch them like a hawk around little kids because both can be so unpredictable.
This^^^
It doesn't matter what you call it; the fact of the matter is the dog broke your child's skin and caused her injury. I love animals as much as the next person but I would never trust an animal around a small child, no matter who owned it or how friendly the pet was. Some people will argue vehemently that their animal would never harm anyone. Always take that with a grain of salt. No one lives inside an animal's mind and the price is far too high if proven wrong.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 3:48 PM on December 27, 2014 [7 favorites]
I've had a variety of different dog species throughout my life and am always careful to watch them like a hawk around little kids because both can be so unpredictable.
This^^^
It doesn't matter what you call it; the fact of the matter is the dog broke your child's skin and caused her injury. I love animals as much as the next person but I would never trust an animal around a small child, no matter who owned it or how friendly the pet was. Some people will argue vehemently that their animal would never harm anyone. Always take that with a grain of salt. No one lives inside an animal's mind and the price is far too high if proven wrong.
posted by Klaxon Aoooogah at 3:48 PM on December 27, 2014 [7 favorites]
I don't think your little one was "bitten" by the dog because a bite, or even a nip, would have caused more damage than what appeared to be a scratch. My guess is that the dog is territorial when it comes to food, had a bit of a guilt thing going because he knew the carseat wasn't something he was supposed to be snuffling around in, and your baby startled him. When he whipped his head around his mouth was open and his tooth scratched her face. I've had dogs all my life and things like this happen often - just accidents, with no aggressive intent at all.
But - your baby is little and there are a lot of ways she can be hurt by the dog without any fault on the part of either one. He can easily knock her over just by turning around quickly, for instance. I had a Great Dane that could easily knock ME over just by turning around quickly - and his whip of a tail cleared the coffee table off daily, knocked over the trash can, and got caught in the door more than once, not to mention that a person could easily slip and break his neck in the drool/water mess he left within 10' of his water bowl. But he's an extreme example - not every dog would represent something so fearsome to your little person and honestly, I'd hate to see the dog locked away when you visit unless there's just no other way.
I'd recommend that someone just be with the baby constantly, watching over both baby and dog and making sure that they're well apart from each other when food is involved. I really hope you can work this out and be comfortable with it because a dog and a child is a winning combination for sure.
posted by aryma at 3:55 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
But - your baby is little and there are a lot of ways she can be hurt by the dog without any fault on the part of either one. He can easily knock her over just by turning around quickly, for instance. I had a Great Dane that could easily knock ME over just by turning around quickly - and his whip of a tail cleared the coffee table off daily, knocked over the trash can, and got caught in the door more than once, not to mention that a person could easily slip and break his neck in the drool/water mess he left within 10' of his water bowl. But he's an extreme example - not every dog would represent something so fearsome to your little person and honestly, I'd hate to see the dog locked away when you visit unless there's just no other way.
I'd recommend that someone just be with the baby constantly, watching over both baby and dog and making sure that they're well apart from each other when food is involved. I really hope you can work this out and be comfortable with it because a dog and a child is a winning combination for sure.
posted by aryma at 3:55 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Food aggression is never acceptable and should be trained out of the dog, ideally during puppyhood. It can be addressed later in a dog's life, though. The key here is just to never leave a dog and child unsupervised. I wouldn't leave a child alone with any dog (or cat), including my own. I don't think that Fido should necessarily be locked in a bedroom whenever the child is in residence, but it's also not acceptable for FIL to have his attention diverted with instrument practice while the child and dog are both loose. If instruments are being practiced, television being watched, the bathroom is being used, etc. etc., the dog should be in a crate and/or the kid should be in a pack n' play or similar. Again, I would say this even about the most trustworthy and dependable dog ever, because kids and animals can both be unpredictable. I say this as a person who, as a 3 year-old kid, decided that experimenting with pencils in her black lab's eye was the epitome of good times. Luckily for me the lab in question just pushed my hand away with her paw, but my mother was shocked that her gentle child who loved her dog would even consider experimenting with sharp objects and canine eyeballs.
posted by xyzzy at 4:12 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 4:12 PM on December 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also a red flag for me the comment about being protective about food.
Animals can never be trusted.
About 10 years ago, when our oldest was a baby she was bitten by our dog. The dog was put down (dog had many problems for a long time, please trust this wasn't something done quickly or without consultation). And just a couple years ago I saw my youngest at age 4 get 'grazed' by our dog's tooth. Our puppy and him were playing, I had a good view and had been watching the whole thing. I can't explain it well but the dog bucked up with open mouth and our boy ran into the dog and caught his nose in the mouth. Totally not a bite, but sure as heck looked like the result of one. I was thankful that I had such a good view because with our history of dogs and biting we are pretty nervous.
I have no idea if your daughter was bit or scratched by a tooth. I've seen both happen myself and I wanted to tell you it is totally possible to be grazed/scratched by a tooth. And totally possible for a dog to bite a child. Our boy even has a tiny tiny scar on his nose from the tooth 'scratch'.
If this were me-I would have a frank conversation with the in-laws and set some strict new rules about the dog.
posted by 58 at 4:17 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Animals can never be trusted.
About 10 years ago, when our oldest was a baby she was bitten by our dog. The dog was put down (dog had many problems for a long time, please trust this wasn't something done quickly or without consultation). And just a couple years ago I saw my youngest at age 4 get 'grazed' by our dog's tooth. Our puppy and him were playing, I had a good view and had been watching the whole thing. I can't explain it well but the dog bucked up with open mouth and our boy ran into the dog and caught his nose in the mouth. Totally not a bite, but sure as heck looked like the result of one. I was thankful that I had such a good view because with our history of dogs and biting we are pretty nervous.
I have no idea if your daughter was bit or scratched by a tooth. I've seen both happen myself and I wanted to tell you it is totally possible to be grazed/scratched by a tooth. And totally possible for a dog to bite a child. Our boy even has a tiny tiny scar on his nose from the tooth 'scratch'.
If this were me-I would have a frank conversation with the in-laws and set some strict new rules about the dog.
posted by 58 at 4:17 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I can see a non-aggressive cut happening if you surprise a dog that's focused on something else, like snuffing out some deep-hidden crumbs because you can sneak up on them a lot easier. If you startle them when you're right over them, they can spin their head around fast and you might essentially get head-butted with their teeth and get a scratch or cut. No aggression, just surprise. Though often, surprise can be a quick shortcut to aggression.
I've had it happen to me when I surprised my dozing neighbours dog and he just banged into my hand with his big lug of a head.
posted by Static Vagabond at 4:31 PM on December 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I've had it happen to me when I surprised my dozing neighbours dog and he just banged into my hand with his big lug of a head.
posted by Static Vagabond at 4:31 PM on December 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I just went through this with my 6 year old. First it was a scratch, then a nip and then he broke skin. Twice. We don't have that dog anymore.
posted by lester's sock puppet at 4:33 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by lester's sock puppet at 4:33 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
i think your MIL was right - this was a scratch more than a bite - a bite, to me, involves jaw strength. all the same, her immediately saying he's only "like that" with food is really the thing you should be concentrating on. your in-laws know the dog is dangerous around food and didn't warn you so you could be more aware of where she and the dog were at any given time. i assume if you knew this about this behavior you wouldn't have trusted a distracted adult to keep an eye on them.
posted by nadawi at 4:34 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 4:34 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thank you all for the answers. I had many conflicting thoughts and the replies have helped. I have a good relationship with my in laws and I feel more comfortable discussing this with them.
posted by spec80 at 5:13 PM on December 27, 2014
posted by spec80 at 5:13 PM on December 27, 2014
Best answer: Whether you call it a 'bite' or a 'scratch by a tooth' is semantics.
It makes no difference as to how you deal with the situation (i.e. having the child always be supervised more closely around the dog from now on, never allowing the child to approach the dog or vice versa when there is food involved), and it makes no difference in the medical treatment of the wound - for that, the only variables that matter are the depth, shape, and location of the wound, and the fact that the wound was caused by a dog's mouth, which is full of bacteria and therefore at much higher risk for infection than a scratch from a paw. At least in some states where I have worked, dog bites were reportable and I was supposed to fill out a form as an emergency department doctor when I saw them, so it could be that your MIL was trying to avoid having a report filed on her dog. But if the scratch was the result of the dog getting protective over food, it is still cause for concern from an animal safety point of view, because it was preventable. And regardless of what the dog's 'official record' is, if subsequently it ever did truly bite and injure your child or show the potential for doing so, I certainly hope your in-laws and you would all agree that your child must never be around this dog again.
So, don't focus on the 'bite vs. tooth scratch' part of the question. Focus on a plan for avoiding any such incidents in the future in cooperation with your in-laws. I do hope you're not 'in shock' over this or considering any major confrontation about it. It's always sad when your baby gets scratched, but scratches do happen, and you've got to be a team with your in-laws and understand that you need to work together with them, assuming they are reasonable people who love their grandchild, to minimize risk of injury to your child while they are watching her - someday they may be watching her and she could break her arm or get a big cut or whatever it is, and I think it's important to recognize that even with close supervision it can be impossible to prevent some injuries from happening and that if family members and babysitters are following established rules that you've agreed on with them, it shouldn't be a huge source of conflict or stress to the point where you can't forgive them, or are ready to pull out some kind of nuclear option or start a big fight over it. I'm not sure if that's what you're feeling about this, exactly, so you can take that thought or leave it if it's not useful. (I have a toddler too so I want you to know that I do understand that it's upsetting when your baby gets hurt, always).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 5:26 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
It makes no difference as to how you deal with the situation (i.e. having the child always be supervised more closely around the dog from now on, never allowing the child to approach the dog or vice versa when there is food involved), and it makes no difference in the medical treatment of the wound - for that, the only variables that matter are the depth, shape, and location of the wound, and the fact that the wound was caused by a dog's mouth, which is full of bacteria and therefore at much higher risk for infection than a scratch from a paw. At least in some states where I have worked, dog bites were reportable and I was supposed to fill out a form as an emergency department doctor when I saw them, so it could be that your MIL was trying to avoid having a report filed on her dog. But if the scratch was the result of the dog getting protective over food, it is still cause for concern from an animal safety point of view, because it was preventable. And regardless of what the dog's 'official record' is, if subsequently it ever did truly bite and injure your child or show the potential for doing so, I certainly hope your in-laws and you would all agree that your child must never be around this dog again.
So, don't focus on the 'bite vs. tooth scratch' part of the question. Focus on a plan for avoiding any such incidents in the future in cooperation with your in-laws. I do hope you're not 'in shock' over this or considering any major confrontation about it. It's always sad when your baby gets scratched, but scratches do happen, and you've got to be a team with your in-laws and understand that you need to work together with them, assuming they are reasonable people who love their grandchild, to minimize risk of injury to your child while they are watching her - someday they may be watching her and she could break her arm or get a big cut or whatever it is, and I think it's important to recognize that even with close supervision it can be impossible to prevent some injuries from happening and that if family members and babysitters are following established rules that you've agreed on with them, it shouldn't be a huge source of conflict or stress to the point where you can't forgive them, or are ready to pull out some kind of nuclear option or start a big fight over it. I'm not sure if that's what you're feeling about this, exactly, so you can take that thought or leave it if it's not useful. (I have a toddler too so I want you to know that I do understand that it's upsetting when your baby gets hurt, always).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 5:26 PM on December 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Just to follow what treehorn+bunny says. What your MIL was most concerned about was having her dog reported as having bitten your daughter, but not enough to compromise the care she received in Urgent Care.
When I was a kid, I tripped over our dog on a midnight bathroom visit. He was sleeping in the hallway, and I startled him. He bit me hard on the leg. So I went to our doctor to get a tetanus shot and he had to report it to Animal Control.
Your MIL probably didn't want her dog reported because it is a PITA! Our dog had two bites reported, (Afghan Hounds bite like idiots.) One more and he would have been quarantined or worse.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:47 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
When I was a kid, I tripped over our dog on a midnight bathroom visit. He was sleeping in the hallway, and I startled him. He bit me hard on the leg. So I went to our doctor to get a tetanus shot and he had to report it to Animal Control.
Your MIL probably didn't want her dog reported because it is a PITA! Our dog had two bites reported, (Afghan Hounds bite like idiots.) One more and he would have been quarantined or worse.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:47 PM on December 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
A bite has force behind it, enough to make deep puncture holes.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:37 PM on December 27, 2014
posted by Jacqueline at 7:37 PM on December 27, 2014
My brother had his face bitten by a dog when he was 8, to a level of his eye hanging off flaps of skin hanging loose and major corrective surgery needed. The dog was snapping after being protective of food. I say this because if the dog had meant to seriously bite your child there would be no doubt or confusion about the injury. treehorn+bunny has the best advice.
On a side note one of my current dogs has a tooth that was chipped many years ago (when a previous owner kicked in in the face breaking may of his teeth). It comes to a much sharper point than his other remaining teeth & when he licks or mouths it is easy for it to mark/graze/scratch the skin.
Your MIL may have wanted to avoid it being mentioned as a bite for many reasons, one is insurance costs can go up. Also just maybe she was worried if it was a bite it would make you angry towards her & the dog. I could see my very confrontation avoiding MIL doing something similar to try & keep the peace.
posted by wwax at 8:14 PM on December 27, 2014
On a side note one of my current dogs has a tooth that was chipped many years ago (when a previous owner kicked in in the face breaking may of his teeth). It comes to a much sharper point than his other remaining teeth & when he licks or mouths it is easy for it to mark/graze/scratch the skin.
Your MIL may have wanted to avoid it being mentioned as a bite for many reasons, one is insurance costs can go up. Also just maybe she was worried if it was a bite it would make you angry towards her & the dog. I could see my very confrontation avoiding MIL doing something similar to try & keep the peace.
posted by wwax at 8:14 PM on December 27, 2014
This is probably going to be a very unpopular opinion, but I am horrified that your MIL is making excuses for the dog.
"Oh, sorry that your toddler - MY GRANDCHILD - was injured by my poorly-trained dog, spec80. Lucky she didn't lose an eye, that would have been horrible for the poor dog who was only licking crumbs off the car seat".
The grandparents of my children, and most other grandparents I know, would immediately take action to ensure that the dog doesn't put any child at risk again (outside-only-when-granddaughter visits, re-homed with a family who doesn't have small children visit, etc). I am amazed that the grandmother of your daughter cared enough to go to the ER to defend the actions of her dog.
As far as I can tell, the dog is more important than the safety of your child.
You may get on well with them, but bloody hell... I wouldn't, after I'd told them exactly what I thought of her reactions and behaviour.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 8:51 PM on December 27, 2014
"Oh, sorry that your toddler - MY GRANDCHILD - was injured by my poorly-trained dog, spec80. Lucky she didn't lose an eye, that would have been horrible for the poor dog who was only licking crumbs off the car seat".
The grandparents of my children, and most other grandparents I know, would immediately take action to ensure that the dog doesn't put any child at risk again (outside-only-when-granddaughter visits, re-homed with a family who doesn't have small children visit, etc). I am amazed that the grandmother of your daughter cared enough to go to the ER to defend the actions of her dog.
As far as I can tell, the dog is more important than the safety of your child.
You may get on well with them, but bloody hell... I wouldn't, after I'd told them exactly what I thought of her reactions and behaviour.
posted by malibustacey9999 at 8:51 PM on December 27, 2014
The dog is obviously food aggressive, and swung around and snapped. She mentions he's "like that" with food.
A bite is a bite. A "snap" is a type of bite, but come on. Getting scratched by a tooth would mean there was no intent on the dog. The dog MEANT to close it's teeth on the kid, however lightly or briefly, to make a pretty specific point. " I am dominant and I own this. "
My current dog has ZERO food aggression with people. No matter what he has or who it is near him he doesn't pause, freeze, or growl or snap when they are near. With dogs he does have food aggression, he'll bark and make a show about it but that's it - honestly pretty mild. So all day today I was on high alert and following my dog around at my MIL's party (since there was more than one dog) in case a kid tried to feed the dogs I didn't want my dog to accidently get one of the kids. It would be MY fault if that happened.
My dog's trigger is other dogs so I can relax most of the time because I can control when there is another dog. Her dog's trigger is food and a dog can think just about anything is food (A crumb you don't see, cat poop on the lawn) so it's not safe around a young kid.
posted by beccaj at 12:21 AM on December 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
A bite is a bite. A "snap" is a type of bite, but come on. Getting scratched by a tooth would mean there was no intent on the dog. The dog MEANT to close it's teeth on the kid, however lightly or briefly, to make a pretty specific point. " I am dominant and I own this. "
My current dog has ZERO food aggression with people. No matter what he has or who it is near him he doesn't pause, freeze, or growl or snap when they are near. With dogs he does have food aggression, he'll bark and make a show about it but that's it - honestly pretty mild. So all day today I was on high alert and following my dog around at my MIL's party (since there was more than one dog) in case a kid tried to feed the dogs I didn't want my dog to accidently get one of the kids. It would be MY fault if that happened.
My dog's trigger is other dogs so I can relax most of the time because I can control when there is another dog. Her dog's trigger is food and a dog can think just about anything is food (A crumb you don't see, cat poop on the lawn) so it's not safe around a young kid.
posted by beccaj at 12:21 AM on December 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think that the reason that there is so much focus on whether or not to call it a "bite" or a "scatch" might be because, at least where I live, a dog that has a history of biting and it happens again, the dog MUST be put down no matter the circumstance. On the first incident, the dog get's designated as a "dangerous animal" and on the 2nd, it's destroyed. She might be trying to prevent the dog from getting labeled as "dangerous".
posted by VTX at 8:47 AM on December 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by VTX at 8:47 AM on December 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
> Whether you call it a 'bite' or a 'scratch by a tooth' is semantics.
Maybe not: many areas have laws that require health care providers to report the dog when a patient presents with dog bite, so you may be quite right that she's trying to protect the dog (though I'm not sure whether a doctor would really opt not report a "scratch with a tooth" instead of just treating it as a bite.) Sometimes a dog might even be subject to mandatory euthanasia after it has been reported a certain number of times, so claiming it as a "scratch" was likely a bid to keep the dog alive. Whether such a tactic is ethical is a complicated question, but that's probably what was going on.
posted by contraption at 11:03 AM on December 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Maybe not: many areas have laws that require health care providers to report the dog when a patient presents with dog bite, so you may be quite right that she's trying to protect the dog (though I'm not sure whether a doctor would really opt not report a "scratch with a tooth" instead of just treating it as a bite.) Sometimes a dog might even be subject to mandatory euthanasia after it has been reported a certain number of times, so claiming it as a "scratch" was likely a bid to keep the dog alive. Whether such a tactic is ethical is a complicated question, but that's probably what was going on.
posted by contraption at 11:03 AM on December 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just another anecdata point to say I have been "scratched" by a tooth and it's definitely possible for that to be the case. In my instance I was playing rough with my dog and my chin collided with his tooth. No biting whatsoever, but it cut and I bled and I still have a scar.
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:37 AM on December 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 7:37 AM on December 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
If your toddler came running across the room and ran by you, just as you were turning, and ran right into your hand, does that mean you HIT your child, or would it be an accident in which your hand and the child happened to collide?
Same difference.
posted by stormyteal at 11:07 PM on December 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Same difference.
posted by stormyteal at 11:07 PM on December 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
It was my mum's dog and we got advice from a dog behaviourist who advised not letting the dog at face height with children as this is common territorial behaviour and a common consequence. We also muzzle the dog now around the kids - not something we ever did before because the dog had always been around kids and vice versa - but it's an easy way (with proper training) to keep it from happening again.
I'm sorry this happened but fwiw there's been no repeat, my niece healed fine, and has had no subsequent fear of mum's dog or any other.
posted by billiebee at 3:15 PM on December 27, 2014 [6 favorites]