How to handle 'very assertive' (?) people.
December 10, 2014 8:00 AM
I just called up a job to clarify something they'd ask for in the application as it was such an unusual request. I was going to just do it, but wanted to double check and arrange to visit.
The guy clarified they did want this thing and I asked, I thought in a friendly inquisitive way, about them asking for it as it was unusual. I was also (I felt) making a bit of conversation. He said that was an inappropriate question as he could 'ask what he liked'.
I am very low just now. Though an experienced professional, job hunting is getting me nowhere except more depressed (not that I'm really enthusiastic about my career anymore, cos I ain't) and it takes so much to keep trying to sell myself so I know I'm probably uber sensitive about stuff, but this has really made me feel shit.
I'm not that bothered about whether you think my question was a crime against humanity or not, more.. how do you handle curt/slightly aggressive responses such as this? (mainly in the tone), without feeling kind of shot down? There was an awkward silence and I said 'ofcourse they could ask what they wanted' (I do agree!) but I said I was 'just curious' and suggested a time to meet. To be honest though I kind of don't want to go now as this has got me wondering if he's just some asshole who likes his crumbs of power and if it's some eggshelly type of environment (for me, the 'oversensitive').
I know this all tracks back to my mum making feel like hell/'less than' with a swift change in intonation and yes I'm in therapy... but I don't seem to get better at handling this stuff/these kind of interactions and it makes stuff really hard sometimes :(
I am very low just now. Though an experienced professional, job hunting is getting me nowhere except more depressed (not that I'm really enthusiastic about my career anymore, cos I ain't) and it takes so much to keep trying to sell myself so I know I'm probably uber sensitive about stuff, but this has really made me feel shit.
I'm not that bothered about whether you think my question was a crime against humanity or not, more.. how do you handle curt/slightly aggressive responses such as this? (mainly in the tone), without feeling kind of shot down? There was an awkward silence and I said 'ofcourse they could ask what they wanted' (I do agree!) but I said I was 'just curious' and suggested a time to meet. To be honest though I kind of don't want to go now as this has got me wondering if he's just some asshole who likes his crumbs of power and if it's some eggshelly type of environment (for me, the 'oversensitive').
I know this all tracks back to my mum making feel like hell/'less than' with a swift change in intonation and yes I'm in therapy... but I don't seem to get better at handling this stuff/these kind of interactions and it makes stuff really hard sometimes :(
Well, I immediately write people like this off and stay far far away from them.
"Happy People Don't Do Bad Things."
Try to understand that he's a broken person on the inside and that you can not take it at all personally. Really.
posted by jbenben at 8:09 AM on December 10, 2014
"Happy People Don't Do Bad Things."
Try to understand that he's a broken person on the inside and that you can not take it at all personally. Really.
posted by jbenben at 8:09 AM on December 10, 2014
I was just dealing with a situation like this at work with a customer who felt wronged.
The thing that really helps me is to try to put aside their feelings and my feelings about it (I, too, am really sensitive -- this is the kind of thing that can ruin my day) and concentrate on what I need to do. So in your case, I'd try to blank out the emotional part and just work twice as hard on the application itself. In my case, I deleted the comments from the customer and focused only on the action I needed to take.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:12 AM on December 10, 2014
The thing that really helps me is to try to put aside their feelings and my feelings about it (I, too, am really sensitive -- this is the kind of thing that can ruin my day) and concentrate on what I need to do. So in your case, I'd try to blank out the emotional part and just work twice as hard on the application itself. In my case, I deleted the comments from the customer and focused only on the action I needed to take.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:12 AM on December 10, 2014
I think that Fiercecupcake has it right.
Less Kirk, more Spock.
Focus on the application, focus on your resume, focus on taking small actions that will represent the awesomeness that you are and make them want to give you an interview and maybe even a job immediately.
posted by John Kennedy Toole Box at 8:15 AM on December 10, 2014
Less Kirk, more Spock.
Focus on the application, focus on your resume, focus on taking small actions that will represent the awesomeness that you are and make them want to give you an interview and maybe even a job immediately.
posted by John Kennedy Toole Box at 8:15 AM on December 10, 2014
Is this a random phone answerer who just hates his job, or is this the hiring manager?
If it's the former, write it off. If it's the later, bear it in mind if you're called into the interview and look for other read flags. Even if you're desperate for a job, if you get a bad vibe just from the interview process RUN AWAY!
I too am unemployed (I'm waiting on an offer letter and it's taking a long time!) I get it, it's hard to stay motivated. It has nothing to do with YOU! It doesn't.
You will find a gig, and if you do it right, and are selective and not desperate, you will find a GOOD gig.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:23 AM on December 10, 2014
If it's the former, write it off. If it's the later, bear it in mind if you're called into the interview and look for other read flags. Even if you're desperate for a job, if you get a bad vibe just from the interview process RUN AWAY!
I too am unemployed (I'm waiting on an offer letter and it's taking a long time!) I get it, it's hard to stay motivated. It has nothing to do with YOU! It doesn't.
You will find a gig, and if you do it right, and are selective and not desperate, you will find a GOOD gig.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:23 AM on December 10, 2014
Honestly, this incident to me would be a blessing in disguise. Even if he felt your question was inappropriate, his response was equally so. You don't want to work for a company whose public-facing people behave like this. His reaction was not your fault.
posted by something something at 8:23 AM on December 10, 2014
posted by something something at 8:23 AM on December 10, 2014
Remind yourself that it's not about you, it's about someone trying to reassure themselves that they're the person with power in this exchange. This sort of behavior--from recruiters, bosses, mothers, customers--means that they feel their control of a situation is under threat, and the easiest way to re-establish control is to try to put you back in your place, for lack of a better term. The question you asked made the guy feel that you were questioning or criticizing him, so he lashed out at you.
Most people don't react to questions--even ones that are wildly inappropriate, which it doesn't sound like this was--by being nasty. You're not the problem here.
posted by MeghanC at 8:26 AM on December 10, 2014
Most people don't react to questions--even ones that are wildly inappropriate, which it doesn't sound like this was--by being nasty. You're not the problem here.
posted by MeghanC at 8:26 AM on December 10, 2014
Job hunting often forces the job hunter to be completely at the mercy of the hiring organization and every interaction feels like a test of your worth. So here you are, reaching out to this company and trying to present your best self and this guy decides to jab you while you're in a vulnerable position. I'm sorry it happened, because I know the feeling sucks. Think of yourself as having the upper hand now. Even though job hunting feels like constantly being judged and found wanting, you're judging them too, and right now you've found them wanting. So go find out if they're worth your time.
posted by Rora at 8:27 AM on December 10, 2014
posted by Rora at 8:27 AM on December 10, 2014
I really do appreciate you all being so sweet and reassuring about this :) It is making me feel less alone. Bring on the rise of self employment!
posted by tanktop at 8:37 AM on December 10, 2014
posted by tanktop at 8:37 AM on December 10, 2014
You have a perfect right to ask questions - interviews are two-way, and you are interviewing the company as well.
And he can't actually "ask what he liked", at least in the US. There are laws restricting what he can ask, and even if his question wasn't near any of those, his reply is bullshit and wrong.
Bullet dodged if they don't call back.
posted by IAmBroom at 8:46 AM on December 10, 2014
And he can't actually "ask what he liked", at least in the US. There are laws restricting what he can ask, and even if his question wasn't near any of those, his reply is bullshit and wrong.
Bullet dodged if they don't call back.
posted by IAmBroom at 8:46 AM on December 10, 2014
I had something like this happen to me – it was during a phone interview and the guy basically tore apart my resume, saying that it was missing some very, very specific information. It wasn’t a problem before or since so I chalked that up to him having a bad day or just being a jerk.
You’re interviewing them just as they are interviewing you. This person showed their true colors right from the start. Imagine if you got the job and this is how they treat all their employees?
posted by Diskeater at 8:54 AM on December 10, 2014
You’re interviewing them just as they are interviewing you. This person showed their true colors right from the start. Imagine if you got the job and this is how they treat all their employees?
posted by Diskeater at 8:54 AM on December 10, 2014
Honestly, this incident to me would be a blessing in disguise. Even if he felt your question was inappropriate, his response was equally so. You don't want to work for a company whose public-facing people behave like this.
I have to disagree if the company in question is large. A lot of employers that are real joys (relatively speaking) have dysfunctional recruiters and hiring practices. If this kind of thing happened at an interview with someone who was actually a prospective colleague, though, I would agree with you.
posted by telegraph at 9:03 AM on December 10, 2014
I have to disagree if the company in question is large. A lot of employers that are real joys (relatively speaking) have dysfunctional recruiters and hiring practices. If this kind of thing happened at an interview with someone who was actually a prospective colleague, though, I would agree with you.
posted by telegraph at 9:03 AM on December 10, 2014
He said that was an inappropriate question as he could 'ask what he liked'.
Ho-ho-ho, that's not really true. It depends on what he was asking. If it was something like, "include a photograph," or, "are you planning on getting married and/or having kids soon?" then that's really not cool. And maybe being abrupt about it is his way of scaring you off or trying to intimidate you not to make a stink about something that is illegal or shady.
Read up on prohibited practices at the EEOC's website.
If a potential employer asks you something that you are uncomfortable with, have a pat answer ready, such as, "I'd have to think about that and get back to you."
And it can be a big or a small company. We used to have a manager at Big Company who required all potential employees to provide a handwriting sample for analysis, as well as take a (non-Corporate approved) 100-question personality test. He had to stop doing that once Corporate found out.
Anyway, put it down to lesson learned. Next time, call and said, "just calling to verify that you want the name of my first born child, is that correct?" If they say, "yes," then make your decision whether to proceed based on that answer. As you have learned, people can be jerks. Do you want to work for a jerk?
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:20 AM on December 10, 2014
Ho-ho-ho, that's not really true. It depends on what he was asking. If it was something like, "include a photograph," or, "are you planning on getting married and/or having kids soon?" then that's really not cool. And maybe being abrupt about it is his way of scaring you off or trying to intimidate you not to make a stink about something that is illegal or shady.
Read up on prohibited practices at the EEOC's website.
If a potential employer asks you something that you are uncomfortable with, have a pat answer ready, such as, "I'd have to think about that and get back to you."
And it can be a big or a small company. We used to have a manager at Big Company who required all potential employees to provide a handwriting sample for analysis, as well as take a (non-Corporate approved) 100-question personality test. He had to stop doing that once Corporate found out.
Anyway, put it down to lesson learned. Next time, call and said, "just calling to verify that you want the name of my first born child, is that correct?" If they say, "yes," then make your decision whether to proceed based on that answer. As you have learned, people can be jerks. Do you want to work for a jerk?
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 9:20 AM on December 10, 2014
> I think it's a little aggressive on your part to ask why they are asking XYZ.
Bullshit. Some companies will ask for stuff that is unusual or even inappropriate. Youve been job hunting, you know the standard drill, you saw something unusual and asked about it. This is perfectly normal.
If there's one thing I would suggest, it would be that you get in the habit of matter-of-factly answering questions with short, true statements. Ie:
"Am I reading this correctly, that you want XYZ?"
"Yes, we need that"
"Okay, thanks. I'm curious: what do you do with that? No-one else has ever asked me for that"
"That's an inappropriate question. We can ask anything we want to ask"
"I understand that you can ask me for things. I'm just curious about XYZ, because no-one has ever asked me for that."
Admittedly, this could go downhill, but - I hope you can see that you're not going out of line asking about this.
For this specific situation, I think you should try to put it out of your mind BUT remember it as a possible red flag. If you meet with this guy and he's a total dick - worse, he's the guy you'd be working for? Then you've can blow these guys off and be happy that you dodged a bullet. Or you might meet this guy, chat, and he might say "hey, I asked someone about the XYZ stuff - I didn't realize it but you're right, it's unusual but we need it because blah blah blah." It's optimistic but not impossible - sometimes people in person are waaaay different than on the phone.
It's been said that the truest test of a person's character is to give them a minute amount of authority and see how they handle it. And you see people FAIL all the time. I won't win any points here in the green with this, but one trick I use to walk away from the stress of any asshole I encounter is to take stock of them - what's their job, how old are they, what do they look like, etc - and give a moment of thanks that I'm not 45yo and working the register at Arby's, or that I'm not gravely obese, or that I speak properly and know not to use foul language in front of a lady, whatever. You may be thinking "but surely there are jerkwads out there who are without fault?" And I'm sure there are. But I've run into damn few of them.
I hope this helps a little. Hang in there.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:32 AM on December 10, 2014
Bullshit. Some companies will ask for stuff that is unusual or even inappropriate. Youve been job hunting, you know the standard drill, you saw something unusual and asked about it. This is perfectly normal.
If there's one thing I would suggest, it would be that you get in the habit of matter-of-factly answering questions with short, true statements. Ie:
"Am I reading this correctly, that you want XYZ?"
"Yes, we need that"
"Okay, thanks. I'm curious: what do you do with that? No-one else has ever asked me for that"
"That's an inappropriate question. We can ask anything we want to ask"
"I understand that you can ask me for things. I'm just curious about XYZ, because no-one has ever asked me for that."
Admittedly, this could go downhill, but - I hope you can see that you're not going out of line asking about this.
For this specific situation, I think you should try to put it out of your mind BUT remember it as a possible red flag. If you meet with this guy and he's a total dick - worse, he's the guy you'd be working for? Then you've can blow these guys off and be happy that you dodged a bullet. Or you might meet this guy, chat, and he might say "hey, I asked someone about the XYZ stuff - I didn't realize it but you're right, it's unusual but we need it because blah blah blah." It's optimistic but not impossible - sometimes people in person are waaaay different than on the phone.
It's been said that the truest test of a person's character is to give them a minute amount of authority and see how they handle it. And you see people FAIL all the time. I won't win any points here in the green with this, but one trick I use to walk away from the stress of any asshole I encounter is to take stock of them - what's their job, how old are they, what do they look like, etc - and give a moment of thanks that I'm not 45yo and working the register at Arby's, or that I'm not gravely obese, or that I speak properly and know not to use foul language in front of a lady, whatever. You may be thinking "but surely there are jerkwads out there who are without fault?" And I'm sure there are. But I've run into damn few of them.
I hope this helps a little. Hang in there.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:32 AM on December 10, 2014
I work in a field where this sort of thing is rampant. Whether it's big/tough personalities, VIPs who think they're allowed to be awful to underlings, or just the stress we work under, it's rare that a week goes by without anyone giving me attitude.
I just don't allow myself to hear the tone. When someone is shitty when they could have easily been nice, I just assume that either they didn't mean it or they're having a terrible day.
I mean obviously this is different if someone says something really inappropriate or rakes me over the coals in a personal and unfair way. You have to stand up for yourself. But if we're talking about snarking when they could have been genuine, or obstructing when they could have been helpful, or throwing attitude at you when it was entirely unwarranted, yeah, you just choose not to hear it and move on.
All of the above said, I'm not sure I'd want to work at a place with this type of company culture. It's one thing if you know it's par for the course in that field, but given the choice to work somewhere HR is helpful vs. somewhere you know you'll get a ton of shade if you call up with the tiniest question about anything, why waste your time with the latter?
posted by Sara C. at 9:33 AM on December 10, 2014
I just don't allow myself to hear the tone. When someone is shitty when they could have easily been nice, I just assume that either they didn't mean it or they're having a terrible day.
I mean obviously this is different if someone says something really inappropriate or rakes me over the coals in a personal and unfair way. You have to stand up for yourself. But if we're talking about snarking when they could have been genuine, or obstructing when they could have been helpful, or throwing attitude at you when it was entirely unwarranted, yeah, you just choose not to hear it and move on.
All of the above said, I'm not sure I'd want to work at a place with this type of company culture. It's one thing if you know it's par for the course in that field, but given the choice to work somewhere HR is helpful vs. somewhere you know you'll get a ton of shade if you call up with the tiniest question about anything, why waste your time with the latter?
posted by Sara C. at 9:33 AM on December 10, 2014
In response to your question "how do you handle curt/aggressive responses," I think you handled it pretty well. I probably would have said, "I was just curious" and tried to move along as cheerfully as possible.
Possibly the only mis-step you made was expecting them to reveal their recruiting methods to an applicant.
It would have been ideal (for you) if he had said, "We ask for [thing] to determine your logical reasoning skills" or whatever but the company probably wants applicants acting as naturally as possible and not trying to anticipate what the company is looking for. They also probably want to control as much as possible the information that each applicant gets and not give one an unfair advantage.
In short I would expect most recruitments (at least in the early stages) to be rather oblique and to have to jump through mysterious hoops. I'm not saying that you should waste your time if a request seems totally out of order, or illegal, but for the most part you should trust that they are asking you for [thing] for a reason, even if that reason is not yet clear.
posted by cranberrymonger at 9:34 AM on December 10, 2014
Possibly the only mis-step you made was expecting them to reveal their recruiting methods to an applicant.
It would have been ideal (for you) if he had said, "We ask for [thing] to determine your logical reasoning skills" or whatever but the company probably wants applicants acting as naturally as possible and not trying to anticipate what the company is looking for. They also probably want to control as much as possible the information that each applicant gets and not give one an unfair advantage.
In short I would expect most recruitments (at least in the early stages) to be rather oblique and to have to jump through mysterious hoops. I'm not saying that you should waste your time if a request seems totally out of order, or illegal, but for the most part you should trust that they are asking you for [thing] for a reason, even if that reason is not yet clear.
posted by cranberrymonger at 9:34 AM on December 10, 2014
To play the devil's advocate, it sounds like you may have inadvertently put your guy on the defensive. In your own account of events:
1. The job application asked for X.
2. You called and asked if X is, indeed, needed.
3. The guy said yes, it's needed.
4. You asked, again, whether it's needed, and essentially said that in your opinion, X is an unusual thing to ask for.
So basically, you were told once and then twice and you just kept asking, essentially implying that they were wrong to ask. We weren't there so we don't know what tone the guy took - maybe he was indeed overly "assertive" - but then so were you, in my opinion.
posted by rada at 9:34 AM on December 10, 2014
1. The job application asked for X.
2. You called and asked if X is, indeed, needed.
3. The guy said yes, it's needed.
4. You asked, again, whether it's needed, and essentially said that in your opinion, X is an unusual thing to ask for.
So basically, you were told once and then twice and you just kept asking, essentially implying that they were wrong to ask. We weren't there so we don't know what tone the guy took - maybe he was indeed overly "assertive" - but then so were you, in my opinion.
posted by rada at 9:34 AM on December 10, 2014
But rada, your accounting of events is inaccurate.
posted by doctor tough love at 9:45 AM on December 10, 2014
posted by doctor tough love at 9:45 AM on December 10, 2014
Respecting a hiring manager's time is imperative. (Everybody's time, really.)
If a job seeker called me up to briefly ask for clarification about how to execute a specific part of an application, I would consider them to be proactive and confident! But if she wanted to keep talking about why I asked for something, I would feel cornered. My time on the clock is valuable, and I don't want to spend it assuaging a stranger's curiosity.
That said, this guy was a grump. Please don't take his negativity personally.
posted by jessca84 at 10:14 AM on December 10, 2014
If a job seeker called me up to briefly ask for clarification about how to execute a specific part of an application, I would consider them to be proactive and confident! But if she wanted to keep talking about why I asked for something, I would feel cornered. My time on the clock is valuable, and I don't want to spend it assuaging a stranger's curiosity.
That said, this guy was a grump. Please don't take his negativity personally.
posted by jessca84 at 10:14 AM on December 10, 2014
Here is what OP posted, with my event sequence over-imposed:
I called (#2) a job to clarify something they'd asked (#1) for in the application. The guy clarified (#3) they did want this thing and I asked (#4) about them asking for it as it was unusual.
Where is my accounting of events inaccurate? Did OP not ask for yet a 3rd "clarification" of whatever it is that OP considers unnecessary?
posted by rada at 10:46 AM on December 10, 2014
I called (#2) a job to clarify something they'd asked (#1) for in the application. The guy clarified (#3) they did want this thing and I asked (#4) about them asking for it as it was unusual.
Where is my accounting of events inaccurate? Did OP not ask for yet a 3rd "clarification" of whatever it is that OP considers unnecessary?
posted by rada at 10:46 AM on December 10, 2014
[Asker can clarify if they need to; we need you guys not to argue it out amongst yourselves in here, please.]
posted by cortex at 10:47 AM on December 10, 2014
posted by cortex at 10:47 AM on December 10, 2014
So I'm really curious now - what did they ask for?
posted by tinkletown at 12:18 PM on December 10, 2014
posted by tinkletown at 12:18 PM on December 10, 2014
"I can ask for whatever I want."
"In that case, so can I, can you please remove my application."
posted by Jubey at 2:52 PM on December 10, 2014
"In that case, so can I, can you please remove my application."
posted by Jubey at 2:52 PM on December 10, 2014
"I can ask for whatever I want."
[is his question not prohibited by state/federal statutes?]
"Of course, and the answer is x. However, I'm asking you what bearing this information has on my application, and I'd appreciate an honest answer so that I can consider what impact this would have on the nature of this particular job."
[is his question prohibited by state/federal statues?]
"Actually, you are not allowed to ask that question because of Law." Then report them to the applicable board or whatever.
posted by disconnect at 1:42 PM on December 11, 2014
[is his question not prohibited by state/federal statutes?]
"Of course, and the answer is x. However, I'm asking you what bearing this information has on my application, and I'd appreciate an honest answer so that I can consider what impact this would have on the nature of this particular job."
[is his question prohibited by state/federal statues?]
"Actually, you are not allowed to ask that question because of Law." Then report them to the applicable board or whatever.
posted by disconnect at 1:42 PM on December 11, 2014
No I don't feel I asked the same question 3 times but maths was never my strong point ;)
Yeah I am tempted to say what they wanted... (as I'm a bit weirded out firstly by the request and secondly by the force of his response.. ) but knowing my luck he hangs out on the green! Will try to take on board that to some I could have been seen as pushy and think about where the 'sweet spot' may lie between being interested in a place and being pushy and how one can aim for that whilst still basically being them self.. or something!
Not overly excited out our pending meet suffice to say!
posted by tanktop at 3:28 PM on December 12, 2014
Yeah I am tempted to say what they wanted... (as I'm a bit weirded out firstly by the request and secondly by the force of his response.. ) but knowing my luck he hangs out on the green! Will try to take on board that to some I could have been seen as pushy and think about where the 'sweet spot' may lie between being interested in a place and being pushy and how one can aim for that whilst still basically being them self.. or something!
Not overly excited out our pending meet suffice to say!
posted by tanktop at 3:28 PM on December 12, 2014
This thread is closed to new comments.
In terms of dealing with situations like this in general, well, I just let it go. Not everything that happens to me, is about me. So someone being a little short with me, is probably because they have a lot of personal stuff going on, or they are under a lot of job pressure, or etc. No one acts ideally all the time and I think about all the times I've been less than perfectly friendly to people who didn't deserve it. I basically always assume people are decent, I'm always willing to give them a pass, because being human is hard.
posted by Aranquis at 8:07 AM on December 10, 2014