Sharing relationship problems for advice with best friend
September 16, 2014 11:05 AM Subscribe
Is it okay to ever talk about relationship problems with your closest trusted friend(s) for advice or to vent?
I never saw this as an issue until I read online that issues should only be discussed between you and your partner. My whole life I've always confided in my sisters or a cousin about relationships for advice but always going with my gut. I don't talk about certain things like sex though. I don't really see the problem as long as it's not frequent because I think that can damage how they see your partner and hear one side of the story and think it's all bad because all they hear is the bad, not the good.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
I never saw this as an issue until I read online that issues should only be discussed between you and your partner. My whole life I've always confided in my sisters or a cousin about relationships for advice but always going with my gut. I don't talk about certain things like sex though. I don't really see the problem as long as it's not frequent because I think that can damage how they see your partner and hear one side of the story and think it's all bad because all they hear is the bad, not the good.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
Friend of mine constantly shares his relationship woes with me. Constantly.
A lot of times I'm entertained, a lot of times I'm annoyed for him/at him, all of the times I respond with "so have you brought this up with her yet?" and all of the times the answer is "well, no."
Venting: useful to do from time to time. Friends can be a good sounding board to check your expectations against (c.f. 100000 human relations questions here on the green).
Constantly venting? Not useful if you refuse to bring any of it up with your partner. Basically, if you're not using it as an experience to learn and grow, then you're just dumping unnecessarily on your friends.
posted by phunniemee at 11:14 AM on September 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
A lot of times I'm entertained, a lot of times I'm annoyed for him/at him, all of the times I respond with "so have you brought this up with her yet?" and all of the times the answer is "well, no."
Venting: useful to do from time to time. Friends can be a good sounding board to check your expectations against (c.f. 100000 human relations questions here on the green).
Constantly venting? Not useful if you refuse to bring any of it up with your partner. Basically, if you're not using it as an experience to learn and grow, then you're just dumping unnecessarily on your friends.
posted by phunniemee at 11:14 AM on September 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
I think it's ok as long as, like you say, it's not constant, you balance the bad with the good, and the other person feels free to share with you too. I think talking about this part of your life is a healthy and necessary part of nurturing that friendship and keeping yourself sane. There's also a big difference between confiding in close friend or relative for your whole life and dumping your entire latest flare-up on every acquaintance you meet.
posted by bleep at 11:24 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 11:24 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is largely cultural, so there are no real hard definitions around this. In my circles, it is usually fine, but you need to be careful how much you complain to your friends about your partner; they might start only seeing the bad.
I've known this to happen to a couple of relationships. The person who is receiving the complaints ends up resenting, and hating their friends partner, because all they hear is bad, terrible, shitty things about said partner. The reality is that yeah, the relationship in those scenarios wasn't the best, the people weren't a good match and whatnot, but no one was a 'bad person,' even though thats how they ended up being portrayed.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've known this to happen to a couple of relationships. The person who is receiving the complaints ends up resenting, and hating their friends partner, because all they hear is bad, terrible, shitty things about said partner. The reality is that yeah, the relationship in those scenarios wasn't the best, the people weren't a good match and whatnot, but no one was a 'bad person,' even though thats how they ended up being portrayed.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:29 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think this can be very healthy. For one, if your relationship was abusive, it might be impossible to ever realize how unhealthy your relationship is without talking about it. Secondly, it can make you realize that some of your struggles are totally normal and reasonable. The caveat I make is that like with anything in a friendship, if all you ever do is complain about your relationship that's not healthy for your relationship or your friendship.
posted by Nimmie Amee at 11:30 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Nimmie Amee at 11:30 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
It's not as clear-cut as OK or not OK in all situations. Personally, I tend toward the "discussing very little with my friends" side, for assorted reasons including both my own temperament and desire to protect my partner. (I love him, dearly, but life with a partner with bipolar disorder has some unique and painful facets that I simply do not think it's fair to him or to shared friends to have me vent about. I seek bipolar-partner-specific support groups for that stuff.) But even so, there are absolutely smaller frustrations, day-to-day type stuff, that I share with friends on occasion, interspersed with the good stories about all the ways he is awesome and the good times we had together. There's a balance.
From the flip side, I know he talks to his friends more than I do about relationship-issue type stuff, and mostly that's fine. I trust him to have good judgment about what is really private personal stuff and what it's cool for him to blow off steam about, and I believe/hope he also tells about the good stuff so his friends don't think I'm just a horrible shrew. If they do, whatever, they are wrong, I'm not losing sleep over it. Once or twice there have been particular things where I really had a big "Oh, god, I wish you hadn't told like everyone we both know about that" reactions. It's rare, we've worked it out and now communicate a bit more clearly about what is and isn't okay to share beyond the two of us.
posted by Stacey at 11:35 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
From the flip side, I know he talks to his friends more than I do about relationship-issue type stuff, and mostly that's fine. I trust him to have good judgment about what is really private personal stuff and what it's cool for him to blow off steam about, and I believe/hope he also tells about the good stuff so his friends don't think I'm just a horrible shrew. If they do, whatever, they are wrong, I'm not losing sleep over it. Once or twice there have been particular things where I really had a big "Oh, god, I wish you hadn't told like everyone we both know about that" reactions. It's rare, we've worked it out and now communicate a bit more clearly about what is and isn't okay to share beyond the two of us.
posted by Stacey at 11:35 AM on September 16, 2014 [2 favorites]
"... until I read online that issues should only be discussed between you and your partner. "
Where are you reading this nonsense?
Imagine you were happily married for 62 years and then your partner died - are you supposed to suffer in silence because you no longer have a partner?
posted by Lesser Shrew at 11:37 AM on September 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
Where are you reading this nonsense?
Imagine you were happily married for 62 years and then your partner died - are you supposed to suffer in silence because you no longer have a partner?
posted by Lesser Shrew at 11:37 AM on September 16, 2014 [5 favorites]
It can be good and it can be bad. A good approach is to be fairly careful about how much you talk about your partner and how much of it is good and how much of it is bad. Basically, about two-thirds should be about how wonderful your partner is, and then, the remaining third of the time, it's okay to talk about issues, though I recommend you endeavor to be as fair as you can.
I say this because it's easy to fall into the habit of complaining a lot about your relationship and always complaining to the same friend, and what happens is that the friend winds up hating your partner. You can't unring that bell, so it's best to avoid it if at all possible.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:41 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I say this because it's easy to fall into the habit of complaining a lot about your relationship and always complaining to the same friend, and what happens is that the friend winds up hating your partner. You can't unring that bell, so it's best to avoid it if at all possible.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:41 AM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I would go absolutely crazy if I DIDN'T do this.
posted by JenThePro at 11:46 AM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by JenThePro at 11:46 AM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
Depends on the discussion and how private and personal it is. "SO sometimes drives me crazy with his snoring" is very different from "SO has a crusty rash on his butt" is very different from "SO yells at me all the time." Judge accordingly.
Also, a bit of venting is totally okay but let's face it, nobody wants to hear someone talk about their relationship all the time. I'm always happy to lend an ear to a friend who needs to talk but I can't listen it constantly, especially if nothing ever changes with regard to issues between friend and their partner.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
Also, a bit of venting is totally okay but let's face it, nobody wants to hear someone talk about their relationship all the time. I'm always happy to lend an ear to a friend who needs to talk but I can't listen it constantly, especially if nothing ever changes with regard to issues between friend and their partner.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:48 AM on September 16, 2014 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Great feedback everyone, my thoughts are on the same page as you...literally lol. Okay, that was gross what futurewritten has wrote about butts and crustiness!!
posted by Asian_Hunnie at 11:53 AM on September 16, 2014
posted by Asian_Hunnie at 11:53 AM on September 16, 2014
It's definitely okay to talk to your friends. In fact, I would encourage it (within reason of course). The reason I say this is because in my previous relationship, I never talked to anyone about all the problems I was having in the relationship. And there were many. After nearly 10 years, the relationship ended, and when I finally started talking about it, my friends and family couldn't believe I hadn't discussed the issues with them at all, especially since many of them had strong feelings that my ex was emotionally abusive once I started talking to them about how the relationship was.
posted by FireFountain at 11:54 AM on September 16, 2014
posted by FireFountain at 11:54 AM on September 16, 2014
From an anonymous commenter:
I confided in my sister when I was having problems in my relationship, and she took my side and did everything in her power to help me leave my partner, including, at the peak of the troubles, consulting an attorney about dividing our property.posted by restless_nomad at 11:58 AM on September 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
My partner and I have over the next six months resolved most of our problems through weekly couples therapy, but my sister is mentally still back at our low point and unable to see my partner in a positive light.
I regret involving her in the issues of my relationship because the bridge between her and my partner has essentially been burnt.
My best friend, on the other hand, also heard the whole story as it was happening, helped me analyze it and supported me emotionally, but she was also able to respect and understand my subsequent choices with regard to my relationship and remains positive about it.
So, my advice would be, be very selective about who you share your problems with, as this can come to bite you in a big way.
I used to do this and I've stopped. I was with an abusive man for awhile and kept everything secret. After all of that I swung pretty hard in the opposite direction. Then I realized that I was putting too much stock in what other people thought. Rather than listening and then comparing their thoughts to mine I was just acting based on what they thought without giving myself time to process and think about how I felt.
I am of the mind that no one knows what's going on in a relationship aside from the two people in it. Because of this I will never be able to accurately portray whatever the issue is to an outsider. Friends too may interact with your relationship partner and if they have a certain take on things and ideas about your boyfriend/girlfriend that could get sticky. Because of these two things I now completely steer clear of talking about my relationships with other people. Any relationships - friendships too. I have taken Eleanor Roosevelt's quote to heart: "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people" - and my life is the better for it.
That said, I find a therapist to be an incredible resource for talking through relationships. They have no stake in the outcome; and will ideally never interact with any of the people I have relationships with unless we all are there together. I used to treat friends like therapists and that's not what a friendship is, at least not for me anymore. Thank god. Now my life is truly drama free too because I really don't get involved in anyone's relationships but my own. Disclosure and sharing tends to be reciprocal, so if I don't talk about relationships and other people, my friends don't either. I like that, personally. I intensely dislike being responsible for helping others through their interpersonal dramas, but that is just me.
As with all things, though: whatever works for you. If you can take advice without internalizing it and behaving in ways that you don't actually want to behave (like I used to do!) and your friends are cool with it, go for it. Live your life by your terms and your own comfort and don't worry about what random people on the Internet say, especially when it's a generalization that can't possibly apply to every situation or person.
posted by sockermom at 12:03 PM on September 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
I am of the mind that no one knows what's going on in a relationship aside from the two people in it. Because of this I will never be able to accurately portray whatever the issue is to an outsider. Friends too may interact with your relationship partner and if they have a certain take on things and ideas about your boyfriend/girlfriend that could get sticky. Because of these two things I now completely steer clear of talking about my relationships with other people. Any relationships - friendships too. I have taken Eleanor Roosevelt's quote to heart: "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people" - and my life is the better for it.
That said, I find a therapist to be an incredible resource for talking through relationships. They have no stake in the outcome; and will ideally never interact with any of the people I have relationships with unless we all are there together. I used to treat friends like therapists and that's not what a friendship is, at least not for me anymore. Thank god. Now my life is truly drama free too because I really don't get involved in anyone's relationships but my own. Disclosure and sharing tends to be reciprocal, so if I don't talk about relationships and other people, my friends don't either. I like that, personally. I intensely dislike being responsible for helping others through their interpersonal dramas, but that is just me.
As with all things, though: whatever works for you. If you can take advice without internalizing it and behaving in ways that you don't actually want to behave (like I used to do!) and your friends are cool with it, go for it. Live your life by your terms and your own comfort and don't worry about what random people on the Internet say, especially when it's a generalization that can't possibly apply to every situation or person.
posted by sockermom at 12:03 PM on September 16, 2014 [7 favorites]
Is it okay to ever talk about relationship problems with your closest trusted friend(s) for advice or to vent?
It would be strange, IMO, to only talk about relationship problems with your SO. Everyone needs a support network, which is multiple people to talk about various problems. Sure, the SO should be the highest on the list (or at least 2nd), but definitely always have multiple people to discuss things with.
If fact, I'd consider it unhealthy if an SO insisted I only talk to them. That would be a huge red flag for toxic insecurity. As a married guy, I've just had to accept that my wife's friends know a bit more about than I'd volunteer, but that's not big deal since I'm not a huge asshole doing things I should be hiding.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:15 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
It would be strange, IMO, to only talk about relationship problems with your SO. Everyone needs a support network, which is multiple people to talk about various problems. Sure, the SO should be the highest on the list (or at least 2nd), but definitely always have multiple people to discuss things with.
If fact, I'd consider it unhealthy if an SO insisted I only talk to them. That would be a huge red flag for toxic insecurity. As a married guy, I've just had to accept that my wife's friends know a bit more about than I'd volunteer, but that's not big deal since I'm not a huge asshole doing things I should be hiding.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:15 PM on September 16, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think there are two parts to this:
1. Not sharing something your partner would be uncomfortable with other people knowing. One of the things that I, at least, expect in a relationship is that we'll guard each other's vulnerabilities. So if I know that sharing something with a friend would hurt his feelings I won't do it. This doesn't mean I wouldn't talk about it at all if it was something I needed advice on, but I would find people to talk to in a way that would preserve his anonymity. So I might ask an anonymous question on AskMe, rather than venting to my best friend.
2. Not sharing only the bad things. Like anything else, people remember the bad and discard the good. So if my friend tells me mostly good things about her partner, but tosses in the occasional story about how she wishes he would stop leaving toothpaste in the sink, I can sympathize and still think they have a good relationship. If she is always listing the things he does wrong, however, I start to think that either she's very judgemental, or he's a pain in the ass. If she tells me a story about him causing her real emotional distress, I won't forgive or forget it easily.
So "don't discuss the inner workings of your relationship with your friends" isn't a hard and fast rule, but a guideline to remind people that once you've shared something it's out there and you won't be able to control how your friend reacts to it.
posted by MsMolly at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
1. Not sharing something your partner would be uncomfortable with other people knowing. One of the things that I, at least, expect in a relationship is that we'll guard each other's vulnerabilities. So if I know that sharing something with a friend would hurt his feelings I won't do it. This doesn't mean I wouldn't talk about it at all if it was something I needed advice on, but I would find people to talk to in a way that would preserve his anonymity. So I might ask an anonymous question on AskMe, rather than venting to my best friend.
2. Not sharing only the bad things. Like anything else, people remember the bad and discard the good. So if my friend tells me mostly good things about her partner, but tosses in the occasional story about how she wishes he would stop leaving toothpaste in the sink, I can sympathize and still think they have a good relationship. If she is always listing the things he does wrong, however, I start to think that either she's very judgemental, or he's a pain in the ass. If she tells me a story about him causing her real emotional distress, I won't forgive or forget it easily.
So "don't discuss the inner workings of your relationship with your friends" isn't a hard and fast rule, but a guideline to remind people that once you've shared something it's out there and you won't be able to control how your friend reacts to it.
posted by MsMolly at 12:16 PM on September 16, 2014 [10 favorites]
I have had a bestfriend since I was 11, who is amazing and trustworthy and I tell her - just about - everything. She gives me insight and I have her some as well.
I think everyone needs SOMEONE to vent to, especially because sometimes the venting is something you can do with your bestfriend and then realize, all the sudden, that it wasn't as big of a deal as you thought it was or worth an arguement with your SO.
However, I do NOT think this applies to family. I would never share things about my realtionship that were really personal with my sibilings, and I would expect my husband to do the same. If I ever hear of him saying those things to family members - in laws, sibligs, my family, whoever - I would be livid.
So, I guess it is a double edged sword if it isn't something that you have discussed with your SO on WHO is appropriate in these situations.
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 12:24 PM on September 16, 2014
I think everyone needs SOMEONE to vent to, especially because sometimes the venting is something you can do with your bestfriend and then realize, all the sudden, that it wasn't as big of a deal as you thought it was or worth an arguement with your SO.
However, I do NOT think this applies to family. I would never share things about my realtionship that were really personal with my sibilings, and I would expect my husband to do the same. If I ever hear of him saying those things to family members - in laws, sibligs, my family, whoever - I would be livid.
So, I guess it is a double edged sword if it isn't something that you have discussed with your SO on WHO is appropriate in these situations.
posted by Sara_NOT_Sarah at 12:24 PM on September 16, 2014
I've learned to be careful about how I present my SO to others, and I try to be fair and balanced. Yes if I'm having problems I want to get some outside input and will ask friends' advice. But no I don't bash my partner, even if I'm mad because he's done something, I try to present it as a my-side, his side, trying to resolve it together. Because people remember what you tell them, and they will form opinions about your spouse and relationship based on the picture you leave them with.
Breaking up with someone and then later deciding to get back together with them though, that can ruin friendships. A friend decided he was leaving his common-law spouse and came to me for advice a month into the breakup. Epic drama ensued, and I witnessed some spectacular manipulation and anxiety from her end. Then he cut contact entirely as per my advice, she seemed to move on and get better, he decided to live it up in his new singledom... and then randomly he decided "all's well!" and back to her. Very hard for me to support that, and of course now he saw me as an enemy to their relationship. Unsurprisingly, a year and a half later, they are actually split up now.
posted by lizbunny at 12:29 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
Breaking up with someone and then later deciding to get back together with them though, that can ruin friendships. A friend decided he was leaving his common-law spouse and came to me for advice a month into the breakup. Epic drama ensued, and I witnessed some spectacular manipulation and anxiety from her end. Then he cut contact entirely as per my advice, she seemed to move on and get better, he decided to live it up in his new singledom... and then randomly he decided "all's well!" and back to her. Very hard for me to support that, and of course now he saw me as an enemy to their relationship. Unsurprisingly, a year and a half later, they are actually split up now.
posted by lizbunny at 12:29 PM on September 16, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think it's better to confide in someone who doesn't know your partner, and ideally in someone who knows neither of you. Of course, it's only in recent times that this has been feasible.
posted by tel3path at 12:40 PM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 12:40 PM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
It depends a lot on how you go about doing it but I think in general it is not an abnormal or unhealthy thing to do, so don't let some online article scare you away from confiding in your friends!
Things to watch out for:
- don't be that friend who only wants to talk about themselves and isn't there for others when they want to talk about their own issues
- understand that, as mentioned above, there may be cases where you share the details of a relationship conflict with your friends, and they are unable to forgive your partner even after you and your partner have cleared up the problem and moved on
posted by poffin boffin at 12:53 PM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
Things to watch out for:
- don't be that friend who only wants to talk about themselves and isn't there for others when they want to talk about their own issues
- understand that, as mentioned above, there may be cases where you share the details of a relationship conflict with your friends, and they are unable to forgive your partner even after you and your partner have cleared up the problem and moved on
posted by poffin boffin at 12:53 PM on September 16, 2014 [3 favorites]
Of course it's fine, as long as you respect your partner's privacy. If there is something that they would not want to get out, or that would be embarrassing, or they told to you in confidence then that is an egregious breach of trust. Remember, it's not just your personal life - it's your partner's personal life too and they get a say in whose business it is.
Two questions to ask yourself before venting to a friend -
1. Would you still bring this up if you knew for a fact your conversation would get back to your partner?
2. If you partner was talking about the exact same thing to their buddy, would you be fine with it?
posted by Willie0248 at 1:34 PM on September 16, 2014
Two questions to ask yourself before venting to a friend -
1. Would you still bring this up if you knew for a fact your conversation would get back to your partner?
2. If you partner was talking about the exact same thing to their buddy, would you be fine with it?
posted by Willie0248 at 1:34 PM on September 16, 2014
If I had a partner, he would know that I think it's generally fair game for me to discuss pretty much anything in my life with my sisters and best friends X,Y,Z. And of course he could do the same with his close friends. And there would likely be exceptions -- things one of us would prefer to keep extremely private -- and we would discuss those as they came up.
I think this is one of those "every relationship gets to make its own rules" situations, and you need to consider how you and your partner both feel about the issue. The answer isn't the same for everyone.
posted by ktkt at 3:24 PM on September 16, 2014
I think this is one of those "every relationship gets to make its own rules" situations, and you need to consider how you and your partner both feel about the issue. The answer isn't the same for everyone.
posted by ktkt at 3:24 PM on September 16, 2014
I'm of two minds on this, particularly because I'm in a situation right now with my partner that seems extremely dire and too difficult to resolve with own resources. In the past, during times like this, I would speak pretty openly with a few close friends, but always with the distinct feeling after that I was overburdening my friends with TMI, and more importantly creating a kind of emotional asymmetry between my partner and I.
In my current relationship, I've learned a difficult lesson time and time again when I've turned to friends for a listening ear. Advice and concerned "get the hell out" messages almost certainly result from my distress signals, prompting me to feel confused about my own perspective on and responsibility in the situation. I've gone to friends during what feel like relationship emergencies because I wanted to feel validated, but I also have a learned desire to confess my own sins and contributions to whatever prompted the emergency (I'm an atheist, pretty much, but was raised evangelical, so the guilt complex persists).
When I've approached friends for advice in the past, I haven't angled for them to paint my partner as the "bad one," because she's not; I'm responsible for co-creating whatever situation we're in. But intention doesn't always carry the day. I've discovered that some friends are willing to suspend their judgements and just listen, while others aren't able or willing to shake their negative opinion of my partner. And my partner, when she senses this, feels stigmatized and betrayed.
So, I dunno, really. Talking things out with a trusted friend or a couple trusted friends or confidantes almost always feels instinctive to me (and to many other social animals, it appears). Because I tend to struggle with anxiety-fueled indecision when conflict arises, and because I don't want to suffer or feel emotionally stuck for too long, and because I'm only now realizing the importance of fostering strong emotional boundaries. And, I mean, I've a glimmer of hope that my friends may be able to help mobilize me out of my difficult feelings. The truth is, they can't. They can provide support and a salve and reflect on their perception of my side, which is inherently limited.
posted by lesemajesty at 5:27 PM on June 19, 2015
In my current relationship, I've learned a difficult lesson time and time again when I've turned to friends for a listening ear. Advice and concerned "get the hell out" messages almost certainly result from my distress signals, prompting me to feel confused about my own perspective on and responsibility in the situation. I've gone to friends during what feel like relationship emergencies because I wanted to feel validated, but I also have a learned desire to confess my own sins and contributions to whatever prompted the emergency (I'm an atheist, pretty much, but was raised evangelical, so the guilt complex persists).
When I've approached friends for advice in the past, I haven't angled for them to paint my partner as the "bad one," because she's not; I'm responsible for co-creating whatever situation we're in. But intention doesn't always carry the day. I've discovered that some friends are willing to suspend their judgements and just listen, while others aren't able or willing to shake their negative opinion of my partner. And my partner, when she senses this, feels stigmatized and betrayed.
So, I dunno, really. Talking things out with a trusted friend or a couple trusted friends or confidantes almost always feels instinctive to me (and to many other social animals, it appears). Because I tend to struggle with anxiety-fueled indecision when conflict arises, and because I don't want to suffer or feel emotionally stuck for too long, and because I'm only now realizing the importance of fostering strong emotional boundaries. And, I mean, I've a glimmer of hope that my friends may be able to help mobilize me out of my difficult feelings. The truth is, they can't. They can provide support and a salve and reflect on their perception of my side, which is inherently limited.
posted by lesemajesty at 5:27 PM on June 19, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by cacao at 11:09 AM on September 16, 2014