Is it possible to be with someone who has friends you cannot stand?
September 10, 2014 9:41 AM
Is it possible to be in a relationship with someone who has friends you cannot stand, especially if one of them is female?
My partner’s friends have been insulting to me and disrespectful to us both. His friends use him constantly and are very demanding of his time. Only two have been there for him and one is female. I keep out of his relationships and just let him know that he seems a better person than they are. I don't want to be pushy but merely open his eyes to their bad behavior.
The other and bigger issue is his best friend, who is a female and significantly younger. I’ve been open to her by being warm, friendly, talkative and very supportive. She has been very kind to me, so much so she’s scared me a tad – she seems almost too good to be true. A few weeks ago she had a party that my partner and I attended. She became drunk and made a huge fuss over the fact he did not remember her birthday (they have been friends ten years.) He entered her birthday into his cell phone to which she replied, “My heart is not on your phone!” She was being very whiny; I tell myself she was just drunk. Then the conversation turned strange regarding the intimacy of plucking/trimming a partner’s eyebrows or shaving a partner’s face to which my boyfriend asked her what her views on it were. It bothered me he asked her since this was a conversation he and I had in the beginning of our relationship. Then she turned to him and complimented him on his “really nice” eyebrows. When she said it red flags were raised as it was uncharacteristic of her to compliment him at all and how she said it was almost flirtatious and affectionate, at least I thought it was. I was shocked and he seemed kind of uncomfortable and flustered. He later mentioned to me that he thought her behavior was odd.
Yesterday was her birthday. She ignored mine months ago and after her odd behavior at the party, I’ve distanced myself a little. I did not wish her a happy birthday. When my partner had his first birthday after his divorce this friend went all out for him, baking him a cake and having a small gathering at her house. I mentioned my partner should wish her a happy birthday. Instead he waited until about 15 minutes before midnight and then texted his Happy Birthday to her just before it passed. It felt odd, as if it was flirtatious for him to wait just before midnight and then tease her that he forgot, especially given the circumstances of their conversation at her party.
He and I spoke about what happened with him trying to convince me how he sees her but his actions just seem out of sink somehow. The words are convincing but then I think of the party and it just felt so off.
The bottom line is I feel I don’t fit with his life or friends. I don't trust her and now I’ve lost trust in him. I question myself constantly, wonder if I'm being nutty. I was up all night with a tight throat, I’m riding out a panic attack. As much as I love him, I wonder about the closeness of their relationship and at the same time wonder if I’m overeating. I doubt our relationship can work at this point and wonder if anybody else has been in this difficult situation and if so how did they handle it and what is the best advice on how to retain my grace if I do decide to break it off or stay? I feel like I’m shutting down on him and people I know as a result of the stress and questions the people in his life seem to bring with them.
This cannot be normal for anybody and I cannot always be wrong about the people he knows. He seems bent on convincing me I am.
My partner’s friends have been insulting to me and disrespectful to us both. His friends use him constantly and are very demanding of his time. Only two have been there for him and one is female. I keep out of his relationships and just let him know that he seems a better person than they are. I don't want to be pushy but merely open his eyes to their bad behavior.
The other and bigger issue is his best friend, who is a female and significantly younger. I’ve been open to her by being warm, friendly, talkative and very supportive. She has been very kind to me, so much so she’s scared me a tad – she seems almost too good to be true. A few weeks ago she had a party that my partner and I attended. She became drunk and made a huge fuss over the fact he did not remember her birthday (they have been friends ten years.) He entered her birthday into his cell phone to which she replied, “My heart is not on your phone!” She was being very whiny; I tell myself she was just drunk. Then the conversation turned strange regarding the intimacy of plucking/trimming a partner’s eyebrows or shaving a partner’s face to which my boyfriend asked her what her views on it were. It bothered me he asked her since this was a conversation he and I had in the beginning of our relationship. Then she turned to him and complimented him on his “really nice” eyebrows. When she said it red flags were raised as it was uncharacteristic of her to compliment him at all and how she said it was almost flirtatious and affectionate, at least I thought it was. I was shocked and he seemed kind of uncomfortable and flustered. He later mentioned to me that he thought her behavior was odd.
Yesterday was her birthday. She ignored mine months ago and after her odd behavior at the party, I’ve distanced myself a little. I did not wish her a happy birthday. When my partner had his first birthday after his divorce this friend went all out for him, baking him a cake and having a small gathering at her house. I mentioned my partner should wish her a happy birthday. Instead he waited until about 15 minutes before midnight and then texted his Happy Birthday to her just before it passed. It felt odd, as if it was flirtatious for him to wait just before midnight and then tease her that he forgot, especially given the circumstances of their conversation at her party.
He and I spoke about what happened with him trying to convince me how he sees her but his actions just seem out of sink somehow. The words are convincing but then I think of the party and it just felt so off.
The bottom line is I feel I don’t fit with his life or friends. I don't trust her and now I’ve lost trust in him. I question myself constantly, wonder if I'm being nutty. I was up all night with a tight throat, I’m riding out a panic attack. As much as I love him, I wonder about the closeness of their relationship and at the same time wonder if I’m overeating. I doubt our relationship can work at this point and wonder if anybody else has been in this difficult situation and if so how did they handle it and what is the best advice on how to retain my grace if I do decide to break it off or stay? I feel like I’m shutting down on him and people I know as a result of the stress and questions the people in his life seem to bring with them.
This cannot be normal for anybody and I cannot always be wrong about the people he knows. He seems bent on convincing me I am.
Which is more likely:
- your boyfriend is nothing like his group of friends and you are right about him
- your boyfriend is actually very much like his group of friends and you are wrong about him
Frankly, for me I would assume the latter. And frankly, even if he really is different from his friends, he still actively hangs out with the, considers them friends, and sees nothing wrong in their behaviour.
So either way, this relationship isn't a good match. This is way more trouble than it is worth.
Time to move on.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:56 AM on September 10, 2014
- your boyfriend is nothing like his group of friends and you are right about him
- your boyfriend is actually very much like his group of friends and you are wrong about him
Frankly, for me I would assume the latter. And frankly, even if he really is different from his friends, he still actively hangs out with the, considers them friends, and sees nothing wrong in their behaviour.
So either way, this relationship isn't a good match. This is way more trouble than it is worth.
Time to move on.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:56 AM on September 10, 2014
It depends on why you can't stand them.
And is this the guy you've known for 9 years?
You do seem to be "riding a panic attack. " Your question is so busy it's hard to work out if you are describing a pattern or have seized on a few events.
Have you tried calmly making lists about what bothers you, and then playing devils advocate to shoot holes in the lists?
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:57 AM on September 10, 2014
And is this the guy you've known for 9 years?
You do seem to be "riding a panic attack. " Your question is so busy it's hard to work out if you are describing a pattern or have seized on a few events.
Have you tried calmly making lists about what bothers you, and then playing devils advocate to shoot holes in the lists?
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:57 AM on September 10, 2014
Wow, the whole paragraph 2 birthday conversation sounds like something I would do, except that mine would be completely sober. That's exactly the kind of jokingly melodramatic business I would pull with a ten year friend who forgot my birthday, right down to the phone/heart line. Of course, I don't know this friend or her personality at all, so I can't speak to the level of seriousness she was feeling, but that exact thing would come out of my mouth in a sarcastic ribbing to a 100% platonic friend.
But that doesn't matter, because this:
The bottom line is I feel I don’t fit with his life or friends. I don't trust her and now I’ve lost trust in him.
is really the crux of the issue. You don't trust him. It has very little to do with this specific friend and everything to do with your relationship. If you don't feel like you fit in with his life and you don't trust him, then that's just it, period, and the relationship will not work unless the two of you really sit down to honestly talk everything through.
posted by phunniemee at 9:58 AM on September 10, 2014
But that doesn't matter, because this:
The bottom line is I feel I don’t fit with his life or friends. I don't trust her and now I’ve lost trust in him.
is really the crux of the issue. You don't trust him. It has very little to do with this specific friend and everything to do with your relationship. If you don't feel like you fit in with his life and you don't trust him, then that's just it, period, and the relationship will not work unless the two of you really sit down to honestly talk everything through.
posted by phunniemee at 9:58 AM on September 10, 2014
He seems bent on convincing me I am.
He is prioritizing them over you, not just for a particular special occasion, but their entire friendship over your entire relationship. That's not a recipe for happiness for anyone in this equation.
posted by Etrigan at 10:02 AM on September 10, 2014
He is prioritizing them over you, not just for a particular special occasion, but their entire friendship over your entire relationship. That's not a recipe for happiness for anyone in this equation.
posted by Etrigan at 10:02 AM on September 10, 2014
Honestly it sounds like the issue here is not the guy or his friends but your own anxiety. What's really making you miserable is not what he or his friends are doing, but your own negative interpretations and emotional (over)reactions.
I'm not saying this in a blaming or shaming way; anxiety is a real and painful thing. It sounds like you could use some help in finding tools and resources (self-soothing exercises/meditation/medication) to deal with your anxious feelings in a more productive way.
posted by ottereroticist at 10:04 AM on September 10, 2014
I'm not saying this in a blaming or shaming way; anxiety is a real and painful thing. It sounds like you could use some help in finding tools and resources (self-soothing exercises/meditation/medication) to deal with your anxious feelings in a more productive way.
posted by ottereroticist at 10:04 AM on September 10, 2014
I'm a woman. My best friend is a man. We are definitely never getting together.
I've had lots of male friends over the years, and hooking up with them -- especially in an affair/cheating type of context -- has never ever even occurred to me.
I don't really understand why it's taken as axiomatic that if your partner has friends of the opposite sex, there's obviously some kind of hanky panky going on. (Which isn't to say such a thing couldn't ever happen, but the two things don't necessarily follow from each other.)
If you can't just deal with the fact that he has a female best friend, and you must get worked up over things like what time of day they text each other, or whether they ever discuss facial hair, I don't really see the point in continuing to date this guy. It's unlikely he's going to dump his best friend for you.
posted by Sara C. at 10:05 AM on September 10, 2014
I've had lots of male friends over the years, and hooking up with them -- especially in an affair/cheating type of context -- has never ever even occurred to me.
I don't really understand why it's taken as axiomatic that if your partner has friends of the opposite sex, there's obviously some kind of hanky panky going on. (Which isn't to say such a thing couldn't ever happen, but the two things don't necessarily follow from each other.)
If you can't just deal with the fact that he has a female best friend, and you must get worked up over things like what time of day they text each other, or whether they ever discuss facial hair, I don't really see the point in continuing to date this guy. It's unlikely he's going to dump his best friend for you.
posted by Sara C. at 10:05 AM on September 10, 2014
Ok. First you need to breathe and go for a walk. Just get away from the computer and from your phone and go walk around and count windows or birds. Make yourself notice three nice or pretty things on your walk.
Are you back? Do you feel a little better?
I get so trapped in these anxiety spirals that I know exactly how you feel. Trapped and panicked and confused, too. Like, "Is this situation entirely in my head, or what? What is this?" That is how I feel when I get into one of these spirals. I have a lot of anxiety about relationships and I tend to obsess and ruminate. It's not a great way to feel.
I think your feelings are trying to tell you something. Listen to them. I think they're trying to say to you, "Hey. I don't feel safe in this relationship. This feels bad." But it doesn't matter what I think they're saying. What do you think you are trying to tell yourself? And how do you want to react to these feelings?
I suggest writing down specific facts about the situation. What actual concrete evidence do you have that this is fishy? Concrete. "He texted her at midnight and I thought that was flirty" isn't concrete because you're bringing emotion without fact in. Try to separate what you feel from what is happening so that you can get a handle on the actual situation.
Also. Relationships are all different. But in my relationship I have literally nothing to do with my boyfriend's friends. Sure, I've met them, and they're all nice, but I don't pay much attention to whether or not his friends are "there for him" or anything like that. That is not really my business. And it greatly cuts down on anxiety for me because I feel secure in the fact that he has a life that does not revolve around me. I would go crazy if I monitored his interactions with his friends. Those interactions are just not my business. If something fishy is going on with another woman it's up to him to say to me: "Yeah, I met someone else that I want to pursue," or to say to her "Lady, I have a girlfriend, no thanks." He's an adult and I trust him.
It took a long time for me to get to trust and it mostly comes from two things: working hard on my anxiety, which is all-encompassing for me; and reminding myself of the facts. My boyfriend treats me like gold all of the time. I have literally no evidence that he might be having inappropriate relationships with other women. And if he is, well, I'll find out eventually. By observing the actual facts of the situation.
I think that working on your anxiety will greatly improve your life. There's no need to stay up all night with a lump in your throat because you feel bad. I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 10:21 AM on September 10, 2014
Are you back? Do you feel a little better?
I get so trapped in these anxiety spirals that I know exactly how you feel. Trapped and panicked and confused, too. Like, "Is this situation entirely in my head, or what? What is this?" That is how I feel when I get into one of these spirals. I have a lot of anxiety about relationships and I tend to obsess and ruminate. It's not a great way to feel.
I think your feelings are trying to tell you something. Listen to them. I think they're trying to say to you, "Hey. I don't feel safe in this relationship. This feels bad." But it doesn't matter what I think they're saying. What do you think you are trying to tell yourself? And how do you want to react to these feelings?
I suggest writing down specific facts about the situation. What actual concrete evidence do you have that this is fishy? Concrete. "He texted her at midnight and I thought that was flirty" isn't concrete because you're bringing emotion without fact in. Try to separate what you feel from what is happening so that you can get a handle on the actual situation.
Also. Relationships are all different. But in my relationship I have literally nothing to do with my boyfriend's friends. Sure, I've met them, and they're all nice, but I don't pay much attention to whether or not his friends are "there for him" or anything like that. That is not really my business. And it greatly cuts down on anxiety for me because I feel secure in the fact that he has a life that does not revolve around me. I would go crazy if I monitored his interactions with his friends. Those interactions are just not my business. If something fishy is going on with another woman it's up to him to say to me: "Yeah, I met someone else that I want to pursue," or to say to her "Lady, I have a girlfriend, no thanks." He's an adult and I trust him.
It took a long time for me to get to trust and it mostly comes from two things: working hard on my anxiety, which is all-encompassing for me; and reminding myself of the facts. My boyfriend treats me like gold all of the time. I have literally no evidence that he might be having inappropriate relationships with other women. And if he is, well, I'll find out eventually. By observing the actual facts of the situation.
I think that working on your anxiety will greatly improve your life. There's no need to stay up all night with a lump in your throat because you feel bad. I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. Best of luck.
posted by sockermom at 10:21 AM on September 10, 2014
I see at least three things happening here:
1) You don't like your boyfriend's friends and think they are jerks who use him. You should assume he will not change who his friends are for you; in fact, to ask him to do so would be unreasonable. Your role here is to decide if you can date someone who has these friends.
2) You think that your boyfriend mistreats his best friend; for instance, almost completely ignoring her birthday while she went the extra mile in celebrating his. If I were you, I would reconsider whether someone like that is a person you would like to date at all.
3) You are anxious about the relationship between your boyfriend and his platonic best friend. I think this piece is about your own insecurities more than it is about these two particular people. And in that case, you might find it helpful to look into therapy or other ways to reduce your anxiety and insecurity about trusting partners to be faithful.
posted by capricorn at 10:22 AM on September 10, 2014
1) You don't like your boyfriend's friends and think they are jerks who use him. You should assume he will not change who his friends are for you; in fact, to ask him to do so would be unreasonable. Your role here is to decide if you can date someone who has these friends.
2) You think that your boyfriend mistreats his best friend; for instance, almost completely ignoring her birthday while she went the extra mile in celebrating his. If I were you, I would reconsider whether someone like that is a person you would like to date at all.
3) You are anxious about the relationship between your boyfriend and his platonic best friend. I think this piece is about your own insecurities more than it is about these two particular people. And in that case, you might find it helpful to look into therapy or other ways to reduce your anxiety and insecurity about trusting partners to be faithful.
posted by capricorn at 10:22 AM on September 10, 2014
I promise you with every fiber of my being that this will end in sadness if you stay. Break up and find a partner with whom you can have positive interactions with friends all around.
posted by Hermione Granger at 11:05 AM on September 10, 2014
posted by Hermione Granger at 11:05 AM on September 10, 2014
I love that my partner surrounds himself with good people. His friends have become mine and vice versa. He has many attractive qualities and his being an excellent judge of character is one of the most important ones. Dickhead, disrespectful friends who made me feel small would be a definite dealbreaker.
You seem so unhappy OP. It doesn't have to be that way.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:10 AM on September 10, 2014
You seem so unhappy OP. It doesn't have to be that way.
posted by futureisunwritten at 11:10 AM on September 10, 2014
I think everyone is missing the point here!!
I'm sorry, but there is SO MUCH WRONG between your BF and his friends.
- Why is he playing games with his "best" friend about her birthday?
Yeah. You're having an anxiety attack because there is so much game playing and shenanigans going on, and while individual events "clicked" to me, it would take an hour or two to explain what the inconsistencies and lies point to.
Let me shorthand it for you:
- Your BF likely puts up with users because he's dishonest, too.
- The thing with the eyebrows? Your BF is covering up some intimacy with his "best" friend. That's why he's putting her down in front of you lately, to "throw you off the scent."
- No. I don't know why they don't just get together.
- Yes. They are sleeping together, have slept together, or want to sleep with each other but have not done so yet.
- Some people just like game playing. Maybe that's the connection between these two?
- DTMFA. RUN. RUN. RUN.
Nothing and no one should make you question your perceptions this much. Who cares what the bottom line is? YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW THE DETAILS TO SPOT LYING LIARS WHO LIE.
Trust your gut. Dump this guy.
To answer your question: I find it impossible to be intimate with anyone with crappy friends. Eventually, it always turns out the crappy friends are just like the BF, and vice versa.
posted by jbenben at 11:18 AM on September 10, 2014
I'm sorry, but there is SO MUCH WRONG between your BF and his friends.
- Why is he playing games with his "best" friend about her birthday?
Yeah. You're having an anxiety attack because there is so much game playing and shenanigans going on, and while individual events "clicked" to me, it would take an hour or two to explain what the inconsistencies and lies point to.
Let me shorthand it for you:
- Your BF likely puts up with users because he's dishonest, too.
- The thing with the eyebrows? Your BF is covering up some intimacy with his "best" friend. That's why he's putting her down in front of you lately, to "throw you off the scent."
- No. I don't know why they don't just get together.
- Yes. They are sleeping together, have slept together, or want to sleep with each other but have not done so yet.
- Some people just like game playing. Maybe that's the connection between these two?
- DTMFA. RUN. RUN. RUN.
Nothing and no one should make you question your perceptions this much. Who cares what the bottom line is? YOU DON'T NEED TO KNOW THE DETAILS TO SPOT LYING LIARS WHO LIE.
Trust your gut. Dump this guy.
To answer your question: I find it impossible to be intimate with anyone with crappy friends. Eventually, it always turns out the crappy friends are just like the BF, and vice versa.
posted by jbenben at 11:18 AM on September 10, 2014
PuppetMcSockerson said it best:
- your boyfriend is nothing like his group of friends and you are right about him
- your boyfriend is actually very much like his group of friends and you are wrong about him
I've encountered people who are "the nice one" in a friendship group of dysfunctional, mean people. Either they are dysfunctional and mean too (and just show it behind closed doors) OR they have really low self-esteem and are choosing to spend their lives tacitly condoning the behavior of dysfunctional and mean people. Is either the person you'd choose as a partner?
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 11:25 AM on September 10, 2014
- your boyfriend is nothing like his group of friends and you are right about him
- your boyfriend is actually very much like his group of friends and you are wrong about him
I've encountered people who are "the nice one" in a friendship group of dysfunctional, mean people. Either they are dysfunctional and mean too (and just show it behind closed doors) OR they have really low self-esteem and are choosing to spend their lives tacitly condoning the behavior of dysfunctional and mean people. Is either the person you'd choose as a partner?
posted by rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto at 11:25 AM on September 10, 2014
I had a "platonic" 12 years long "best" friend that was a good deal older than me. He used to shit talk me to his (now ex) wife all the time as a way of covering up the emotional affair that was going on....
At least I had the decency not to pretend to be her friend, though.
I can't tell everyone in this thread how transparent and textbook this situation is - down to him having lots of other questionable friends, too.
IDK. I was living in a dream world at the time where I thought if I just played my cards right, I could get him away from all of those "bad influences."
*Sigh*
I was an idiot and he was a game playing loser.
OP, you're not crazy. People really do stuff like this.
Open a new door in your life and walk away. When you are with the right person, it is never ever this complicated.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 11:27 AM on September 10, 2014
At least I had the decency not to pretend to be her friend, though.
I can't tell everyone in this thread how transparent and textbook this situation is - down to him having lots of other questionable friends, too.
IDK. I was living in a dream world at the time where I thought if I just played my cards right, I could get him away from all of those "bad influences."
*Sigh*
I was an idiot and he was a game playing loser.
OP, you're not crazy. People really do stuff like this.
Open a new door in your life and walk away. When you are with the right person, it is never ever this complicated.
Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 11:27 AM on September 10, 2014
Per jbenben's "Yes. They are sleeping together, have slept together, or want to sleep with each other but have not done so yet":
My very good (arguably best, for how much we confide in each other) friend of 11+ years is of the opposite sex, and we did indeed sleep together! Big-time! But it was a decade ago and we've since realized that we can never ever be a couple, ever, because we're just not compatible in that way. No question about that.
It is entirely possible that your boyfriend has slept with his friend and, anticipating an anxiety tailspin from you, has withheld this information. Which is not cool! But I might assume that there has been some funny business in the past, it's over, but every now and then a little whisper of a flirt comes out and floats away into the wind. It doesn't need to be a big deal, in my experience.
posted by magdalemon at 11:39 AM on September 10, 2014
My very good (arguably best, for how much we confide in each other) friend of 11+ years is of the opposite sex, and we did indeed sleep together! Big-time! But it was a decade ago and we've since realized that we can never ever be a couple, ever, because we're just not compatible in that way. No question about that.
It is entirely possible that your boyfriend has slept with his friend and, anticipating an anxiety tailspin from you, has withheld this information. Which is not cool! But I might assume that there has been some funny business in the past, it's over, but every now and then a little whisper of a flirt comes out and floats away into the wind. It doesn't need to be a big deal, in my experience.
posted by magdalemon at 11:39 AM on September 10, 2014
When you take a really dispassionate, clear, and analytical look at the totality of his behavior, OP, it is clear you're dating someone who you think is this "sensitive" Great Guy, but who apparently has been presenting himself very differently to all of these various "friends" when you are not around.
All of these odd-boundary having friendships of his, with both males and females, and these events that make you feel like shit - they don't "just happen" to him, OP. He creates them.
Gaslighting. That's my take on your anxious feelings in response to your boyfriend's overall behavior pattern (as you've described it to us anyway here, in your two Asks about him in the past 6 months). Staging and engaging in these bizarre little interactions for you to watch, like he's pitting his friends against his lovers in an odd bid for his attentions?
jbenben's extremely wise, prescient comment from your last Ask about this boyfriend from March 2014 nailed it exactly:
"Funny how your boyfriend's affection and attention is always the "prize" in these little skirmishes, don't you think?...
The ex wife was in competition with these men and others, and now you are in competition with her and others in your boyfriend's life. These types of dynamics don't magically repeat themselves over and over again by chance...
Sure, you are at fault if you continue to participate in these competitions, but it is crystal clear the dynamics existed long before you joined the party.
OP, I'm not sure if you can triumph over this type of systemic dysfunction, or if you should even try."
True dat.
posted by hush at 11:43 AM on September 10, 2014
All of these odd-boundary having friendships of his, with both males and females, and these events that make you feel like shit - they don't "just happen" to him, OP. He creates them.
Gaslighting. That's my take on your anxious feelings in response to your boyfriend's overall behavior pattern (as you've described it to us anyway here, in your two Asks about him in the past 6 months). Staging and engaging in these bizarre little interactions for you to watch, like he's pitting his friends against his lovers in an odd bid for his attentions?
jbenben's extremely wise, prescient comment from your last Ask about this boyfriend from March 2014 nailed it exactly:
"Funny how your boyfriend's affection and attention is always the "prize" in these little skirmishes, don't you think?...
The ex wife was in competition with these men and others, and now you are in competition with her and others in your boyfriend's life. These types of dynamics don't magically repeat themselves over and over again by chance...
Sure, you are at fault if you continue to participate in these competitions, but it is crystal clear the dynamics existed long before you joined the party.
OP, I'm not sure if you can triumph over this type of systemic dysfunction, or if you should even try."
True dat.
posted by hush at 11:43 AM on September 10, 2014
Yes, it is possible if it is only some friends, and if you and your boyfriend are not involved in whatever drama the friends come up with. But it seems like you are over-involved, so it does not seem like it is possible in this situation.
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 4:24 PM on September 10, 2014
posted by never.was.and.never.will.be. at 4:24 PM on September 10, 2014
Are you happy?
If you were happy, none of this would bother you to the point of writing a long-assed post to Internet Strangers.
At this point it should be obvious that you don't like these folks and don't want to mix with them. Therefore, in a healthy relationship, he would see his friends alone, and you'd go to the movies, or see your friends that HE doesn't like.
But it seems that he keeps dragging you to events with these people you don't like. And you keep going. Why is that?
How much could you really have in common if you don't like ANY of his friends. As for the 'drunky-wunky' crap at the party, that's just a bag of fucked-up.
Cut your losses. There are good relationships out there, this isn't one of them.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:20 PM on September 10, 2014
If you were happy, none of this would bother you to the point of writing a long-assed post to Internet Strangers.
At this point it should be obvious that you don't like these folks and don't want to mix with them. Therefore, in a healthy relationship, he would see his friends alone, and you'd go to the movies, or see your friends that HE doesn't like.
But it seems that he keeps dragging you to events with these people you don't like. And you keep going. Why is that?
How much could you really have in common if you don't like ANY of his friends. As for the 'drunky-wunky' crap at the party, that's just a bag of fucked-up.
Cut your losses. There are good relationships out there, this isn't one of them.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:20 PM on September 10, 2014
OP Here: Thank you for your replies.
I'd like to retort on a few things:
@phunniemee, I understand your reply but this is not common behavior for his female friend, hence the red flag. His reaction was not common, he was like an embarrassed little kid. If that is normal for you, I am unsure that is healthy. For me, not normal and poor taste on both parts.
@ Sara C, texting any woman (unless it’s his family) around midnight is not normal nor respectful. I disagree with you. I wouldn’t text a man at that time of night either, especially while with someone.
@hal_c_on, maybe I did not make myself clear, not arguing semantics – I mean that I do not want to keep bringing it up so I will not, I genuinely do not want to make him feel bad. I have mentioned gently that I think he is better than them, that he deserves better pals. I do not pound it in his head. I actually do not want to talk to him about this at all, I find it tiresome…
@futureisunwritten, I somewhat expected that and took for granted it would happen here. I am extremely disappointed and broken hearted. Maturity is a dying art. He admits he has faults and he needs to work on things. Perhaps that is why I hang on.
@jbenben, thank you so much. You have been a source of comfort and kindness to me, very non judgmental. This has been so hard on many levels for me. I think you are right, but it hurts. I wanted so bad to see it different and I’m still wanting to shoot holes in my own views. I am artistic and very much alone, I do not make friends easily so those I do make I wish to cling to. Him included. He has been so patient in so many ways with me. He has even offered to stop talking to these people but I feel so guilty. What a mess. I don’t feel I will ever be suitable for anybody at this point.
@ rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto, I’ve been asking myself that very thing.
Thank you all, even those I've not directly replied to. I'm still having a panic attack but at least it isn’t massive. I'm angry as well. I think I need to go back to my painting but find it daunting when I feel this way. Still all the feedback here, even what I disagree with has been so helpful. It’s akin to holding up a mirror, no? Thank you.
posted by Fayrose at 5:43 PM on September 10, 2014
I'd like to retort on a few things:
@phunniemee, I understand your reply but this is not common behavior for his female friend, hence the red flag. His reaction was not common, he was like an embarrassed little kid. If that is normal for you, I am unsure that is healthy. For me, not normal and poor taste on both parts.
@ Sara C, texting any woman (unless it’s his family) around midnight is not normal nor respectful. I disagree with you. I wouldn’t text a man at that time of night either, especially while with someone.
@hal_c_on, maybe I did not make myself clear, not arguing semantics – I mean that I do not want to keep bringing it up so I will not, I genuinely do not want to make him feel bad. I have mentioned gently that I think he is better than them, that he deserves better pals. I do not pound it in his head. I actually do not want to talk to him about this at all, I find it tiresome…
@futureisunwritten, I somewhat expected that and took for granted it would happen here. I am extremely disappointed and broken hearted. Maturity is a dying art. He admits he has faults and he needs to work on things. Perhaps that is why I hang on.
@jbenben, thank you so much. You have been a source of comfort and kindness to me, very non judgmental. This has been so hard on many levels for me. I think you are right, but it hurts. I wanted so bad to see it different and I’m still wanting to shoot holes in my own views. I am artistic and very much alone, I do not make friends easily so those I do make I wish to cling to. Him included. He has been so patient in so many ways with me. He has even offered to stop talking to these people but I feel so guilty. What a mess. I don’t feel I will ever be suitable for anybody at this point.
@ rogerrogerwhatsyourrvectorvicto, I’ve been asking myself that very thing.
Thank you all, even those I've not directly replied to. I'm still having a panic attack but at least it isn’t massive. I'm angry as well. I think I need to go back to my painting but find it daunting when I feel this way. Still all the feedback here, even what I disagree with has been so helpful. It’s akin to holding up a mirror, no? Thank you.
posted by Fayrose at 5:43 PM on September 10, 2014
(Sock puppet account for when I need to be more comfortable/anonymous when talking about my relationship past.)
I'm going to share my story with you, just because I want you to know you're not alone in having this experience. I went through this for over two years with my previous boyfriend. He was a wonderful person with a heart of gold; charismatic but in a sweet, whimsical way. By the time we started dating, we'd been friends for six years. However, I met him in college, and always socialized with him within the context of college, and so I was an outsider to his 'core' friends that he'd known since high school. They were not at college with us, but had instead grown up in said college town their whole lives (as had he), and were just as rooted to my ex's charisma as they were to the town itself. All of them were musicians and for years had been together in different band projects. I watched how they put my ex on a pedestal to the point that it was a bit coddling and idiotic. And I was, again, an outsider, so there was always a slight, passive aggressive undertone in their interactions with me that communicated that I was not an acceptable partner because I was not one of them (whatever "them" can be defined by; I'm thinking it was as superficial as knowing my ex for twelve years as opposed to my paltry six). I found myself acting awkward around them as a result. It's strange for me to feel intimidated, but it's a trait that comes out when I'm around people who are cold and withholding.
Anyway, these feelings of awkwardness were always present when we'd go out to see his friends. I'd get anxious about it, dread it. Whether it was at a party at one of their homes, at a band performance, at a birthday party in the park for one of their kids. One of his friends (not a super close friend, but definitely the leader of the pack) was a narcissist with sociopathic traits. She would never look me in the eye or even look at me. If I spoke, she'd stare in the other direction with a smug, shit-eating grin on her face. She made no effort to get to know me, despite the fact that I'd shown an interest in getting to know her on several occasions. I was always polite. I have no idea what I did to piss her off. (I should note that her interest in him wasn't romantic; it never came across that way, more motherly/controlling; she also had a husband who was her exact opposite in that he was friendly, charming, and was the rare person of the group who'd address me like a human). Now, I look back and see that her behavior toward me wasn't personal. I was just a threat to her narcissism (which needs the fanning and adoration of others to keep it alive) and to their core friend base.
She was the worst example, but his other friends were still pretty distant and aloof. Many would act like I was not there; would not acknowledge me. The breaking point was when the aforementioned narcissist chick was talking to my ex and I about films we'd recently watched. She then made a sarcastic, cruel remark in response to something innocuous I said, totally out of left field, and left my ex and I sitting there stunned and speechless. Then she said something hyper-friendly about how we should totally all get together for a movie night and proceeded to rush off. It was like she'd flip a switch off and then on and then off again.
My ex was pretty non-confrontational, but I was disappointed in him for not telling this person that he found her behavior toward me disrespectful. We had quite the row over it but in the end I realized he felt the same way about her I did, that she was unreasonable and alienating, and he said we'd avoid at all costs any events that he knew she'd be at. He held to this.
Still, the fact that he wouldn't communicate with his friends (what good are your longtime best friends if you can't communicate with them?) that he found their behavior alienating is something that stuck with me, and contributed to my breaking it off with him.
It was so painful.
And I'll be honest with you. There are moments I regret it. And that's because I loved him, but I didn't love his friends or (more importantly) who I was when around or confronted by his friends. I have also started treating my anxiety disorder since then, and wonder at times if I would have handled the whole situation better had I been on anxiety medication at the time. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that he enabled his friends' shitty behavior to me by refusing to call it out or correct it when he himself was bothered by it. I'm not saying I didn't have a responsibility to stick up for myself (and I did on many occasion) but the fact that he wasn't on my side when it came to action, not just words, was the deal breaker.
So ultimately, while I have anxiety-tinged pangs of regret on rare occasion, I know that I made the right choice. I see all the places we were growing apart, and how we differed in our approach to communication and conflict resolution.
Just because you love someone and they love you back does not mean you are right for each other.
Also, while you're dating your boyfriend and not his friends, they're still a part of his life that he chose. I'd rather be alone and not around people who make me feel like that than with the best guy ever but surrounded by jerks.
posted by sockdrawerfortunes at 7:46 PM on September 10, 2014
I'm going to share my story with you, just because I want you to know you're not alone in having this experience. I went through this for over two years with my previous boyfriend. He was a wonderful person with a heart of gold; charismatic but in a sweet, whimsical way. By the time we started dating, we'd been friends for six years. However, I met him in college, and always socialized with him within the context of college, and so I was an outsider to his 'core' friends that he'd known since high school. They were not at college with us, but had instead grown up in said college town their whole lives (as had he), and were just as rooted to my ex's charisma as they were to the town itself. All of them were musicians and for years had been together in different band projects. I watched how they put my ex on a pedestal to the point that it was a bit coddling and idiotic. And I was, again, an outsider, so there was always a slight, passive aggressive undertone in their interactions with me that communicated that I was not an acceptable partner because I was not one of them (whatever "them" can be defined by; I'm thinking it was as superficial as knowing my ex for twelve years as opposed to my paltry six). I found myself acting awkward around them as a result. It's strange for me to feel intimidated, but it's a trait that comes out when I'm around people who are cold and withholding.
Anyway, these feelings of awkwardness were always present when we'd go out to see his friends. I'd get anxious about it, dread it. Whether it was at a party at one of their homes, at a band performance, at a birthday party in the park for one of their kids. One of his friends (not a super close friend, but definitely the leader of the pack) was a narcissist with sociopathic traits. She would never look me in the eye or even look at me. If I spoke, she'd stare in the other direction with a smug, shit-eating grin on her face. She made no effort to get to know me, despite the fact that I'd shown an interest in getting to know her on several occasions. I was always polite. I have no idea what I did to piss her off. (I should note that her interest in him wasn't romantic; it never came across that way, more motherly/controlling; she also had a husband who was her exact opposite in that he was friendly, charming, and was the rare person of the group who'd address me like a human). Now, I look back and see that her behavior toward me wasn't personal. I was just a threat to her narcissism (which needs the fanning and adoration of others to keep it alive) and to their core friend base.
She was the worst example, but his other friends were still pretty distant and aloof. Many would act like I was not there; would not acknowledge me. The breaking point was when the aforementioned narcissist chick was talking to my ex and I about films we'd recently watched. She then made a sarcastic, cruel remark in response to something innocuous I said, totally out of left field, and left my ex and I sitting there stunned and speechless. Then she said something hyper-friendly about how we should totally all get together for a movie night and proceeded to rush off. It was like she'd flip a switch off and then on and then off again.
My ex was pretty non-confrontational, but I was disappointed in him for not telling this person that he found her behavior toward me disrespectful. We had quite the row over it but in the end I realized he felt the same way about her I did, that she was unreasonable and alienating, and he said we'd avoid at all costs any events that he knew she'd be at. He held to this.
Still, the fact that he wouldn't communicate with his friends (what good are your longtime best friends if you can't communicate with them?) that he found their behavior alienating is something that stuck with me, and contributed to my breaking it off with him.
It was so painful.
And I'll be honest with you. There are moments I regret it. And that's because I loved him, but I didn't love his friends or (more importantly) who I was when around or confronted by his friends. I have also started treating my anxiety disorder since then, and wonder at times if I would have handled the whole situation better had I been on anxiety medication at the time. Nevertheless, it doesn't change the fact that he enabled his friends' shitty behavior to me by refusing to call it out or correct it when he himself was bothered by it. I'm not saying I didn't have a responsibility to stick up for myself (and I did on many occasion) but the fact that he wasn't on my side when it came to action, not just words, was the deal breaker.
So ultimately, while I have anxiety-tinged pangs of regret on rare occasion, I know that I made the right choice. I see all the places we were growing apart, and how we differed in our approach to communication and conflict resolution.
Just because you love someone and they love you back does not mean you are right for each other.
Also, while you're dating your boyfriend and not his friends, they're still a part of his life that he chose. I'd rather be alone and not around people who make me feel like that than with the best guy ever but surrounded by jerks.
posted by sockdrawerfortunes at 7:46 PM on September 10, 2014
Wow. I had no idea. Thank you!
Trouble is, I can't seem to disavow you of this notion you have that you are somehow to blame.
You. Are. Not.
It's obvious the situation is super dysfunctional. I mean, yeah, you are choosing a relationship that has unfixable flaws - you're responsible for that.
But I've been there. (A few too many times, TBH.)
Dumping this guy is going to hurt a lot, because you really really meant for the best, and meant for it to work out. I know.
Make this pain matter. Learn from it.
#1 - You can't save people, no matter how deep and true your love is.
#2. - TRUST YOUR GUT. You're having anxiety attacks and writing multiple AskMe's because this relationship is not good for you!!
---
I'm going to leave you with this....
I was worrying about you and this thread today as I drove my amazing son from Preschool to Speech Therapy today. Amazing son is shared with my "forever husband" (remember him from your previous question?)....
Dude!! It struck me as INCREDIBLE I'm even in this position today!!
I would not have either of these wonderful men in my life if I had not walked away from dysfunctional relationships - including my ENTIRE family.
I totally understand loneliness and being an artist. Believe me when I tell you that shit like this is holding you back from much better things in life, and more stable relationships with people that treat you wonderfully.
Stack of bibles! I mean it!!
Best to you. *Hugs*
posted by jbenben at 8:09 PM on September 10, 2014
Trouble is, I can't seem to disavow you of this notion you have that you are somehow to blame.
You. Are. Not.
It's obvious the situation is super dysfunctional. I mean, yeah, you are choosing a relationship that has unfixable flaws - you're responsible for that.
But I've been there. (A few too many times, TBH.)
Dumping this guy is going to hurt a lot, because you really really meant for the best, and meant for it to work out. I know.
Make this pain matter. Learn from it.
#1 - You can't save people, no matter how deep and true your love is.
#2. - TRUST YOUR GUT. You're having anxiety attacks and writing multiple AskMe's because this relationship is not good for you!!
---
I'm going to leave you with this....
I was worrying about you and this thread today as I drove my amazing son from Preschool to Speech Therapy today. Amazing son is shared with my "forever husband" (remember him from your previous question?)....
Dude!! It struck me as INCREDIBLE I'm even in this position today!!
I would not have either of these wonderful men in my life if I had not walked away from dysfunctional relationships - including my ENTIRE family.
I totally understand loneliness and being an artist. Believe me when I tell you that shit like this is holding you back from much better things in life, and more stable relationships with people that treat you wonderfully.
Stack of bibles! I mean it!!
Best to you. *Hugs*
posted by jbenben at 8:09 PM on September 10, 2014
OP here: Thread sitting a bit and wanted to reply one more time to someone who has been kind and in the process let anyone else know (who is curious) what is happening.
@Jbenben, he and I spoke in depth about it today - had an extremely serious conversation where my leaving came up (I put it on the table as a viable option for myself and explained I do not feel I am wrong at all.) He's fighting for me to not go and is willing to speak about this deeply until we both feel it resolved. I have often sensed his female friend is a decent person myself but she also has a drinking issue, which is her fault and an issue she needs to fix - and a few weeks ago it became an issue to me (obviously). He and I have discussed her drinking a few times in the last year, he has seen it before but not to this degree as she was drinking 'everclear'. I have never seen her that drunk or strange before, myself.
The bad male friend is going away soon as he and I both agree he's a prick and my partner has stated he feels a great deal of discomfort when around him - I notice he has pulled away a lot after confronting his friend about his disrespect toward me. The other pals he has get along with me and they like me and I them.
With regard to feelings for his female friend, he has no feelings for her whatsoever. I believe him because I think he cares but is not as close as I assume. In his defense the night she made fuss over him, he did walk away and tell me in private he did not wish to be around her, he seemed quite irritated and disgusted. They speak about once every two weeks or so and not for very long. Sometimes they speak once a month. He also did not feel his text to her last night was much to do, her reply was a simple "thanks".
I have a sordid history with very bad people and physical abuse. He has been kind and patient with my suspicions and issues regarding trust and has said he wants me to be happy and that he's willing to work on these things to see that I am. The issues are literally what I have posted here. I think for me the intensity is much worse due to my abusive history, so some of the culpability must also be placed upon me, I believe. Baggage. He admits he has his own as well, so we work on it together and slowly.
I explained it would be fine for us to have separate friends, he did not like this as he wants us to be together and he is open to us making new ones together. He'd like for me to be more relaxed and care less about the shitty actions of others because he feels all I or anyone can control is our own action in the end. He feels my becoming upset lends to my unhappiness and he just wants us to be happy together.
Who knows how long he will keep his female pal around and if she can help herself, it will be better for all involved. I believe I need to assert myself with her as well, she is only 29 - my partner and I are both in our 40's. She was employed under him in the past. He said that while she can be good, she is human and makes mistakes - sadly none of what he tells her to help her issues, sticks. He does not mind being a mentor as he had a few until his late twenties. (I admit I have had one for the last 30 years so can understand where he is coming from in this regard.) He told me he doesn't care about certain aspects of their friendship or her personality the way I assume he does. He did not put her down, just explained how he views her. It helps.
I am not defending him, but trying to sift through this - because online I can paint a picture without filling in some details and anyone can make their own conclusions. I agree with you completely and many of the posters here about understanding what is best for me. I also would like to help myself and be open to what he says before I ruin what may be a good thing because it is not always or even mostly bad. These are isolated incidents that need navigating through.
I'm going to label this resolved soon and slip a private email to someone within the next few days who has been very kind.
Thank you for all your feedback.
posted by Fayrose at 12:30 AM on September 11, 2014
@Jbenben, he and I spoke in depth about it today - had an extremely serious conversation where my leaving came up (I put it on the table as a viable option for myself and explained I do not feel I am wrong at all.) He's fighting for me to not go and is willing to speak about this deeply until we both feel it resolved. I have often sensed his female friend is a decent person myself but she also has a drinking issue, which is her fault and an issue she needs to fix - and a few weeks ago it became an issue to me (obviously). He and I have discussed her drinking a few times in the last year, he has seen it before but not to this degree as she was drinking 'everclear'. I have never seen her that drunk or strange before, myself.
The bad male friend is going away soon as he and I both agree he's a prick and my partner has stated he feels a great deal of discomfort when around him - I notice he has pulled away a lot after confronting his friend about his disrespect toward me. The other pals he has get along with me and they like me and I them.
With regard to feelings for his female friend, he has no feelings for her whatsoever. I believe him because I think he cares but is not as close as I assume. In his defense the night she made fuss over him, he did walk away and tell me in private he did not wish to be around her, he seemed quite irritated and disgusted. They speak about once every two weeks or so and not for very long. Sometimes they speak once a month. He also did not feel his text to her last night was much to do, her reply was a simple "thanks".
I have a sordid history with very bad people and physical abuse. He has been kind and patient with my suspicions and issues regarding trust and has said he wants me to be happy and that he's willing to work on these things to see that I am. The issues are literally what I have posted here. I think for me the intensity is much worse due to my abusive history, so some of the culpability must also be placed upon me, I believe. Baggage. He admits he has his own as well, so we work on it together and slowly.
I explained it would be fine for us to have separate friends, he did not like this as he wants us to be together and he is open to us making new ones together. He'd like for me to be more relaxed and care less about the shitty actions of others because he feels all I or anyone can control is our own action in the end. He feels my becoming upset lends to my unhappiness and he just wants us to be happy together.
Who knows how long he will keep his female pal around and if she can help herself, it will be better for all involved. I believe I need to assert myself with her as well, she is only 29 - my partner and I are both in our 40's. She was employed under him in the past. He said that while she can be good, she is human and makes mistakes - sadly none of what he tells her to help her issues, sticks. He does not mind being a mentor as he had a few until his late twenties. (I admit I have had one for the last 30 years so can understand where he is coming from in this regard.) He told me he doesn't care about certain aspects of their friendship or her personality the way I assume he does. He did not put her down, just explained how he views her. It helps.
I am not defending him, but trying to sift through this - because online I can paint a picture without filling in some details and anyone can make their own conclusions. I agree with you completely and many of the posters here about understanding what is best for me. I also would like to help myself and be open to what he says before I ruin what may be a good thing because it is not always or even mostly bad. These are isolated incidents that need navigating through.
I'm going to label this resolved soon and slip a private email to someone within the next few days who has been very kind.
Thank you for all your feedback.
posted by Fayrose at 12:30 AM on September 11, 2014
I explained it would be fine for us to have separate friends, he did not like this as he wants us to be together
She was employed under him in the past.... He does not mind being her mentor.
These are red flags. Especially the idea of "mentoring" someone younger that used to work for him, and the idea that y'all shouldn't have separate friends. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but that was a massive red flag in my worst relationship, and my ex also did the whole "mentoring younger women" thing and it was really, well, gross and inappropriate and totally transparent. My ex had no friends that we did not share, and I had no friends that we did not share (because he would... throw tantrums... when I tried to socialize without him). Both of those are not great, and together it's lethal.
Do you have a hobby? A thing that you do alone that takes you out of the house once or twice a week? Your painting is great, but I would suggest that you do something a tiny bit social that is also related to a hobby, like joining a book club or knitting group or taking yoga or doing a movie club. I think that might be really great for you.
Also, are you in any type of therapy? I find my therapist has been very helpful for dealing with my anxiety. Whether or not you are right and your boyfriend is being sketchy (I kind of personally think you should break it off with this guy and walk away, because this is a lot of heartache and a romantic relationship should sustain and nourish you, not give you the angry sweats and make you lose sleep) - well, whether you're right or not, it sounds like you have a lot of anxiety.
I know that my past abuse really has shaped me a lot, and one of the "gifts" being abused gave me was that it completely heightened my already-anxious state. I am like, super duper ultra anxious now in a way that I never was before. I recently started working on it in a very concerted way and my life is changing for the better at a pretty rapid pace. I highly, highly encourage you to consider talking to your general practitioner or to a therapist about your anxiety. I think it will really help, no matter what is actually going on with your boyfriend here.
Best of luck to you. I'm sorry you're going through this.
posted by sockermom at 8:15 AM on September 11, 2014
She was employed under him in the past.... He does not mind being her mentor.
These are red flags. Especially the idea of "mentoring" someone younger that used to work for him, and the idea that y'all shouldn't have separate friends. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but that was a massive red flag in my worst relationship, and my ex also did the whole "mentoring younger women" thing and it was really, well, gross and inappropriate and totally transparent. My ex had no friends that we did not share, and I had no friends that we did not share (because he would... throw tantrums... when I tried to socialize without him). Both of those are not great, and together it's lethal.
Do you have a hobby? A thing that you do alone that takes you out of the house once or twice a week? Your painting is great, but I would suggest that you do something a tiny bit social that is also related to a hobby, like joining a book club or knitting group or taking yoga or doing a movie club. I think that might be really great for you.
Also, are you in any type of therapy? I find my therapist has been very helpful for dealing with my anxiety. Whether or not you are right and your boyfriend is being sketchy (I kind of personally think you should break it off with this guy and walk away, because this is a lot of heartache and a romantic relationship should sustain and nourish you, not give you the angry sweats and make you lose sleep) - well, whether you're right or not, it sounds like you have a lot of anxiety.
I know that my past abuse really has shaped me a lot, and one of the "gifts" being abused gave me was that it completely heightened my already-anxious state. I am like, super duper ultra anxious now in a way that I never was before. I recently started working on it in a very concerted way and my life is changing for the better at a pretty rapid pace. I highly, highly encourage you to consider talking to your general practitioner or to a therapist about your anxiety. I think it will really help, no matter what is actually going on with your boyfriend here.
Best of luck to you. I'm sorry you're going through this.
posted by sockermom at 8:15 AM on September 11, 2014
There's such a huge disconnect between your questions about this relationship and your most recent follow-up, I just don't know!
People don't develop symptoms like panic attacks out of thin air, so yes, I think you might really enjoy therapy as a way to get your heart and your head on the same page.
posted by jbenben at 10:19 AM on September 11, 2014
People don't develop symptoms like panic attacks out of thin air, so yes, I think you might really enjoy therapy as a way to get your heart and your head on the same page.
posted by jbenben at 10:19 AM on September 11, 2014
I just wanted to pop in and offer a different perspective on your issue. I'm a little confused by your account of events though. You mention the female friend of your partner had a birthday party a few weeks ago (involving the drunken encounter where she called your bf out for forgetting), but then say yesterday involved the late night text wishing her birthday?
That said, and I know this is going a bit against the grain here so far, but IMHO it's unfair to condemn someone based on the behavior of their friends. To imply a person should be responsible for what their friends do completely disregards the fact that we're talking about grown, autonomous human beings who have their own thoughts, personality, preferences, desires, ideas of humor, etc. No one can predict others' behavior - people that are normally -awesome- may act a fool under the right circumstances. People are flawed. It happens. It seems really immature to play the 'guilty by association' game. Yes, if your partners' friends are making you uncomfortable, he should speak with them but it seems like quite a leap to make predictions about his (your partners') character, behavior or honesty because of it.
And to add, you're going into a very established friendship circle who just helped nurse their friend through the end of a 20-year marriage---of course they're going to be standoffish to any new woman (they don't appear to know of the 9-year history with your partner) forming a relationship with him--per your own words the last partner was selfish and "not too deep". If you are "shy and introverted - also extremely cerebral" (your own words; I would use them to describe myself as well so no judgement here), you may be giving off the same vibe as your partners' ex---quiet, not interested and lost in your own thoughts. Or, there's also that you find it a "chore to smile and act interested" - and they may be picking up on that as well. That doesn't excuse their behavior of course, but it certainly makes it less surprising and may be something to consider. Also, if you don't like them, don't hang out with them. There is no rule saying that you have to. My partner and I each have friends that the other doesn't like, so we simply hang out with those people alone. Having your own separate circle of friends is a good thing (or so is my opinion after the end of a LTR where we only had mutual friends).
Also, I think a lot of your dislike for his female friend may stem from insecurity/anxiety. There's nothing you've presented to indicate that she's some sort of threat to your relationship. You mention a female friend in your first post, but then only discussed actual issues with the male friends. What was her part at that time? This one drunken incident aside, what else has she done to make you uncomfortable? Per your own words she's been kind to you and a bit 'too good to be true'. If you're just going off this one incident, that seems quite unfair - everyone has behaved in exaggerated ways they would otherwise not while drunk. Her behavior seemed harmless (to me, I admit) but seems to have thrown up your defenses. Are you projecting a bit based on the 2 year online relationship you posted about back in July? I may be reaching, but perhaps you feel insecure about the interactions between your partner and this female friend because you have been having romantic/sexual feelings for your own (online) friend?
posted by stubbehtail at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2014
That said, and I know this is going a bit against the grain here so far, but IMHO it's unfair to condemn someone based on the behavior of their friends. To imply a person should be responsible for what their friends do completely disregards the fact that we're talking about grown, autonomous human beings who have their own thoughts, personality, preferences, desires, ideas of humor, etc. No one can predict others' behavior - people that are normally -awesome- may act a fool under the right circumstances. People are flawed. It happens. It seems really immature to play the 'guilty by association' game. Yes, if your partners' friends are making you uncomfortable, he should speak with them but it seems like quite a leap to make predictions about his (your partners') character, behavior or honesty because of it.
And to add, you're going into a very established friendship circle who just helped nurse their friend through the end of a 20-year marriage---of course they're going to be standoffish to any new woman (they don't appear to know of the 9-year history with your partner) forming a relationship with him--per your own words the last partner was selfish and "not too deep". If you are "shy and introverted - also extremely cerebral" (your own words; I would use them to describe myself as well so no judgement here), you may be giving off the same vibe as your partners' ex---quiet, not interested and lost in your own thoughts. Or, there's also that you find it a "chore to smile and act interested" - and they may be picking up on that as well. That doesn't excuse their behavior of course, but it certainly makes it less surprising and may be something to consider. Also, if you don't like them, don't hang out with them. There is no rule saying that you have to. My partner and I each have friends that the other doesn't like, so we simply hang out with those people alone. Having your own separate circle of friends is a good thing (or so is my opinion after the end of a LTR where we only had mutual friends).
Also, I think a lot of your dislike for his female friend may stem from insecurity/anxiety. There's nothing you've presented to indicate that she's some sort of threat to your relationship. You mention a female friend in your first post, but then only discussed actual issues with the male friends. What was her part at that time? This one drunken incident aside, what else has she done to make you uncomfortable? Per your own words she's been kind to you and a bit 'too good to be true'. If you're just going off this one incident, that seems quite unfair - everyone has behaved in exaggerated ways they would otherwise not while drunk. Her behavior seemed harmless (to me, I admit) but seems to have thrown up your defenses. Are you projecting a bit based on the 2 year online relationship you posted about back in July? I may be reaching, but perhaps you feel insecure about the interactions between your partner and this female friend because you have been having romantic/sexual feelings for your own (online) friend?
posted by stubbehtail at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2014
OP @ stubbehtail - No, She did not have a birthday party, she had a party and mentioned her birthday during the evening of the party. She did however have a birthday a week or so later. And yes she made my boyfriend uncomfortable with how she behaved, so much so he was irritated by her drunkenness when we left soon after - and so much so he was aware how upset I was when we left her place.
To answer your question - she has done stupid crap aside from that. A year ago she asked my boyfriend if he'd like to do dinner on X-mas eve without so much as acknowledging me. She did it again a few days ago. This has made my boyfriend uncomfortable for a few reasons, because he knew how I'd react and also because she looked at him like a little kid - it was weird. He was quite happy when I chimed in we would see, as I do have family. I have agreed to the dinner, but still have some bad feelings about her lack of tact.
The birthday situation is a little touchy for me personally as I wished her Happy Birthday last year and she completely overlooked mine when mine rolled around, it was impossible to miss it was all over FB, which she goes on daily - plus my boyfriend mentioned it to her. She also will not compliment my work personally to me either, but will be sure and tell my boyfriend how great my work is, he has become irritated with her because of it and called her on it.
I find her a tad disingenuous and am entitled to. I have been polite, open and kind to her. I deserve the same in return. It may be a case she is simply thoughtless and rude. I would be sure and tell someone personally if I liked their work. I would not intrude on a couple by assuming I am to spend holidays with them. I would also wish someone a happy birthday who extends the same courtesy to me and at the same time not make a huge deal to my best guy friend in front of his girlfriend the fact he forgets my own birthday - especially if I overlooked her birthday. If that's how you roll, great. You wouldn't be my friend. I have self respect and am thoughtful.
As for feelings about my friend overseas, we are fond of one another and close. I have thought of ending ties with him because I was worried he may be compensating for something, such as not meeting someone offline by spending time with me on the phone. I care about him and his head, I have been worried. Not so much now, as we discussed it in depth. My feelings for my friend are quite under control and are strictly platonic. While it's nice to assume I feel guilt. I don't. I am not spending Holidays or inviting him to spend Holidays with my boyfriend and I, like my boyfriend's best female friend does, by always inviting herself along. I do not allow my friend overseas to interfere and he is VERY unbiased when it comes to my personal situations - in fact he rather enjoys my boyfriend. My cross sex friendship is not the issue, my boyfriend's is. And he has other cross sex friendships where this is NOT an issue.
As for judging a person by their friends. Sure you can!!! Why not?! They choose them. Who a person decides to surround themselves with speaks volumes about them innately. Many of my partners friends are just human, people with average struggles who confront daily situations. But you know, when someone is accusing, dishonest or purposely trying to hurt my relationship by painting a bad picture of me to him, that's screwed up and wrong, especially when they have never spent five minutes alone with me or started a one on one conversation with me. This has happened in one case and my boyfriend has more or less ended that tie and will be moving on completely in the near future - - - and if the other female friend cannot be cool with me, my partner has an obligation to distance himself and place me first or I can leave. If he cannot do that it infers he's fine with his friends treatment of me and comfortable himself with their crummy social habits. I cannot respect someone like that. My own personal friends are wonderfully warm people who would NEVER treat my partner the way two of his friends have me. If they did, they would no longer be in my life. But since I am smart, I suss people and simply don't cultivate those sorts of relationships with that sort of person.
Thanks.
posted by Fayrose at 11:15 AM on October 23, 2014
To answer your question - she has done stupid crap aside from that. A year ago she asked my boyfriend if he'd like to do dinner on X-mas eve without so much as acknowledging me. She did it again a few days ago. This has made my boyfriend uncomfortable for a few reasons, because he knew how I'd react and also because she looked at him like a little kid - it was weird. He was quite happy when I chimed in we would see, as I do have family. I have agreed to the dinner, but still have some bad feelings about her lack of tact.
The birthday situation is a little touchy for me personally as I wished her Happy Birthday last year and she completely overlooked mine when mine rolled around, it was impossible to miss it was all over FB, which she goes on daily - plus my boyfriend mentioned it to her. She also will not compliment my work personally to me either, but will be sure and tell my boyfriend how great my work is, he has become irritated with her because of it and called her on it.
I find her a tad disingenuous and am entitled to. I have been polite, open and kind to her. I deserve the same in return. It may be a case she is simply thoughtless and rude. I would be sure and tell someone personally if I liked their work. I would not intrude on a couple by assuming I am to spend holidays with them. I would also wish someone a happy birthday who extends the same courtesy to me and at the same time not make a huge deal to my best guy friend in front of his girlfriend the fact he forgets my own birthday - especially if I overlooked her birthday. If that's how you roll, great. You wouldn't be my friend. I have self respect and am thoughtful.
As for feelings about my friend overseas, we are fond of one another and close. I have thought of ending ties with him because I was worried he may be compensating for something, such as not meeting someone offline by spending time with me on the phone. I care about him and his head, I have been worried. Not so much now, as we discussed it in depth. My feelings for my friend are quite under control and are strictly platonic. While it's nice to assume I feel guilt. I don't. I am not spending Holidays or inviting him to spend Holidays with my boyfriend and I, like my boyfriend's best female friend does, by always inviting herself along. I do not allow my friend overseas to interfere and he is VERY unbiased when it comes to my personal situations - in fact he rather enjoys my boyfriend. My cross sex friendship is not the issue, my boyfriend's is. And he has other cross sex friendships where this is NOT an issue.
As for judging a person by their friends. Sure you can!!! Why not?! They choose them. Who a person decides to surround themselves with speaks volumes about them innately. Many of my partners friends are just human, people with average struggles who confront daily situations. But you know, when someone is accusing, dishonest or purposely trying to hurt my relationship by painting a bad picture of me to him, that's screwed up and wrong, especially when they have never spent five minutes alone with me or started a one on one conversation with me. This has happened in one case and my boyfriend has more or less ended that tie and will be moving on completely in the near future - - - and if the other female friend cannot be cool with me, my partner has an obligation to distance himself and place me first or I can leave. If he cannot do that it infers he's fine with his friends treatment of me and comfortable himself with their crummy social habits. I cannot respect someone like that. My own personal friends are wonderfully warm people who would NEVER treat my partner the way two of his friends have me. If they did, they would no longer be in my life. But since I am smart, I suss people and simply don't cultivate those sorts of relationships with that sort of person.
Thanks.
posted by Fayrose at 11:15 AM on October 23, 2014
I have been polite, open and kind to her. I deserve the same in return.
Not really, sorry. No one really "deserves" openness or kindness. Politeness, sure. It's always in everyone's best interests to be cordial and polite. No one deserves rudeness.
But openness and kindness are not things that we "get" in return for the same. That is, just because I am open with someone does not entitle me to expect them to be open with me. Just because I am kind does not mean I can expect kindness in return.
Treat other people the way you would like to be treated, but expect nothing. This woman is not your friend. If you can't date someone who has friends that are not also your friends - which is what this question and your follow up strongly implies - you might consider doing some work on that. People have friends outside of their romantic relationships. It is healthy and normal. She sounds like she's not your friend, but that she is your boyfriend's friend. Not everyone will want to be friends with you, no matter how kind and open you are with them. That's ok. My boyfriend has friends that are polite to me but aren't my friends - and that is ok. That is good. I want him to have people in his life that are not connected intimately with me. That way lies disaster.
If you can't respect your boyfriend because you don't like his friends, break up with him so he can find someone that does respect him.
posted by sockermom at 8:37 AM on October 24, 2014
Not really, sorry. No one really "deserves" openness or kindness. Politeness, sure. It's always in everyone's best interests to be cordial and polite. No one deserves rudeness.
But openness and kindness are not things that we "get" in return for the same. That is, just because I am open with someone does not entitle me to expect them to be open with me. Just because I am kind does not mean I can expect kindness in return.
Treat other people the way you would like to be treated, but expect nothing. This woman is not your friend. If you can't date someone who has friends that are not also your friends - which is what this question and your follow up strongly implies - you might consider doing some work on that. People have friends outside of their romantic relationships. It is healthy and normal. She sounds like she's not your friend, but that she is your boyfriend's friend. Not everyone will want to be friends with you, no matter how kind and open you are with them. That's ok. My boyfriend has friends that are polite to me but aren't my friends - and that is ok. That is good. I want him to have people in his life that are not connected intimately with me. That way lies disaster.
If you can't respect your boyfriend because you don't like his friends, break up with him so he can find someone that does respect him.
posted by sockermom at 8:37 AM on October 24, 2014
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posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:53 AM on September 10, 2014