This guy makes me feel uncomfortable
September 6, 2014 7:58 PM
There's an older man I run into at social dances sometimes. I can't tell if his behavior is just overt but harmless friendliness or creepy flirtatiousness.
I have been getting into social dancing for a few months now. Three months ago, I took a group class in which I was one of the few follows. It was a small class, including an older man in his 50s. I'll call him Steve. Steve's manner has always come across as kind of creepy to me--something about his oddly intense curiosity about other people, mixed with his age, just seems out of place to me in a setting that's mostly filled with young 20-somethings. He's always been a weirdly friendly guy, so he may just be acting normal around me. But even so, our exchanges make me uncomfortable.
For example, during class, when we danced together, I would ask him how he was. He would say things like, "I'm better now that you're here." I just laughed it off at first, because I always thought he said these things jokingly, or that he was just naturally flirty but was pretty harmless.
(In contrast, there was another gentleman, probably older than Steve, who would come to the classes and dances. But while he was friendly enough, he was mainly there for the dance. I felt comfortable with this other older guy because he was there for dancing primarily. There was no weird vibe from him)
During one class session, Steve found out I write on the side and asked me for my business card so he could visit my online portfolio. I didn't want to give it to him, so I said I didn't have it (which was the truth) and told him I'd bring it to the next class (which was a lie). Next class rolls around, I purposefully don't bring it. He asks me if I have it, and when I say I forgot again, he says, visibly peeved, "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?"
I'm taken aback, and also naturally bad at confrontation, so I just look at him and repeat I forgot. He doesn't believe me, and it's an awkward last class. It just so happens that before this awkward exchange occurs, he asks me if I'll send him the video of the teachers' recap of the lesson because he forgot his phone that night. I end up emailing him the video, and the link to my portfolio. I felt bad because I thought that maybe I was just overreacting. This was back in June.
Last night I went to the weekly dance for the first time in a while and bring a friend, Jason, with me for a beginner lesson. Steve's there and he's brought a friend with him, too. We exchange pleasantries, I introduce Steve to Jason, etc. During the beginner lesson, when we rotate partners and I rotate to Steve, he holds out his hand for me to shake and jokes, "Hi, I'm Jason. I believe you're here with Steve." Since I haven't been to the dance in awhile, he says he misses me and has to dance with another follow from our class.
I'm shy and reserved and never talk much when I'm trying to learn a dance anyway, but I especially try not to talk to Steve anymore than necessary when we dance together or see each other because I just didn't want to engage with him that much. So it's possible he means his flirty comments to help me feel more comfortable, though they're having the opposite effect.
Between our last class together and last night, I've been to some of the dances and he has never really initiated that much contact beyond a wave, an occasional short conversation or just asking to dance if we happen to be standing near each other. However, he does always seem to make it a point to say things like, "I haven't seen you in forever. Where have you been?" Yes, I realize that sounds innocuous enough, but his interest still bothers me nonetheless. I think part of me just finds him really offputting for whatever reason and maybe what's mere flirtatiousness/friendliness leads me to think of him as super creepy.
The next time he says something flirty to me--although I really hope I can avoid seeing him again for awhile--should I just write it off as harmless? Or should I say something? (I kind of like billiebee's suggestion for a quasi-similar question that was asked here on the green, although I am very aware that the OP's situation was much, much more serious than mine.)
I have been getting into social dancing for a few months now. Three months ago, I took a group class in which I was one of the few follows. It was a small class, including an older man in his 50s. I'll call him Steve. Steve's manner has always come across as kind of creepy to me--something about his oddly intense curiosity about other people, mixed with his age, just seems out of place to me in a setting that's mostly filled with young 20-somethings. He's always been a weirdly friendly guy, so he may just be acting normal around me. But even so, our exchanges make me uncomfortable.
For example, during class, when we danced together, I would ask him how he was. He would say things like, "I'm better now that you're here." I just laughed it off at first, because I always thought he said these things jokingly, or that he was just naturally flirty but was pretty harmless.
(In contrast, there was another gentleman, probably older than Steve, who would come to the classes and dances. But while he was friendly enough, he was mainly there for the dance. I felt comfortable with this other older guy because he was there for dancing primarily. There was no weird vibe from him)
During one class session, Steve found out I write on the side and asked me for my business card so he could visit my online portfolio. I didn't want to give it to him, so I said I didn't have it (which was the truth) and told him I'd bring it to the next class (which was a lie). Next class rolls around, I purposefully don't bring it. He asks me if I have it, and when I say I forgot again, he says, visibly peeved, "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?"
I'm taken aback, and also naturally bad at confrontation, so I just look at him and repeat I forgot. He doesn't believe me, and it's an awkward last class. It just so happens that before this awkward exchange occurs, he asks me if I'll send him the video of the teachers' recap of the lesson because he forgot his phone that night. I end up emailing him the video, and the link to my portfolio. I felt bad because I thought that maybe I was just overreacting. This was back in June.
Last night I went to the weekly dance for the first time in a while and bring a friend, Jason, with me for a beginner lesson. Steve's there and he's brought a friend with him, too. We exchange pleasantries, I introduce Steve to Jason, etc. During the beginner lesson, when we rotate partners and I rotate to Steve, he holds out his hand for me to shake and jokes, "Hi, I'm Jason. I believe you're here with Steve." Since I haven't been to the dance in awhile, he says he misses me and has to dance with another follow from our class.
I'm shy and reserved and never talk much when I'm trying to learn a dance anyway, but I especially try not to talk to Steve anymore than necessary when we dance together or see each other because I just didn't want to engage with him that much. So it's possible he means his flirty comments to help me feel more comfortable, though they're having the opposite effect.
Between our last class together and last night, I've been to some of the dances and he has never really initiated that much contact beyond a wave, an occasional short conversation or just asking to dance if we happen to be standing near each other. However, he does always seem to make it a point to say things like, "I haven't seen you in forever. Where have you been?" Yes, I realize that sounds innocuous enough, but his interest still bothers me nonetheless. I think part of me just finds him really offputting for whatever reason and maybe what's mere flirtatiousness/friendliness leads me to think of him as super creepy.
The next time he says something flirty to me--although I really hope I can avoid seeing him again for awhile--should I just write it off as harmless? Or should I say something? (I kind of like billiebee's suggestion for a quasi-similar question that was asked here on the green, although I am very aware that the OP's situation was much, much more serious than mine.)
Here's how we know it's not innocuous:
He asks me if I have it, and when I say I forgot again, he says, visibly peeved, "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?"
So - he knows perfectly well that he's being pushy; and now he knows that you're going to let him keep getting away with it. This line of his was a GREAT opportunity for you to smile tightly, look away for a beat and then look him directly in the eye and say "yeah… I'm just here for the dancing; I won't be sharing my portfolio." Look out for the next opportunity to say it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:29 PM on September 6, 2014
He asks me if I have it, and when I say I forgot again, he says, visibly peeved, "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?"
So - he knows perfectly well that he's being pushy; and now he knows that you're going to let him keep getting away with it. This line of his was a GREAT opportunity for you to smile tightly, look away for a beat and then look him directly in the eye and say "yeah… I'm just here for the dancing; I won't be sharing my portfolio." Look out for the next opportunity to say it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 8:29 PM on September 6, 2014
It sort of doesn't matter what his motivation is -- his overtures, be they friendly or otherwise, are unwelcome. You don't have to be nice and you don't have to make sure everyone likes you. You are 100% okay to say "Look Steve, I am here for the dancing. We are not friends and I don't want to be friends." And you don't have to apologise for that, either.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:31 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by DarlingBri at 8:31 PM on September 6, 2014
he says, visibly peeved, "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?"
This sets off alarm bells for me. Listen to your gut. This guy is pushing your boundaries. It isn't your fault. But you can tell him off and you can tell the organizers. And keep an eye on him, in case he takes up any other boundary-pushing behaviours. I get the creeps just reading this.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 8:38 PM on September 6, 2014
This sets off alarm bells for me. Listen to your gut. This guy is pushing your boundaries. It isn't your fault. But you can tell him off and you can tell the organizers. And keep an eye on him, in case he takes up any other boundary-pushing behaviours. I get the creeps just reading this.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 8:38 PM on September 6, 2014
Hi, I'm Jason. I believe you're here with Steve.
What the hell? Look, that's not a normal thing to say, even being flirty.
You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?
This suggests he feels somehow entitled to know anything about you that you clearly are not open to volunteering. It's not as if you couldn't have given him the URL to your online portfolio by writing it down (which is what you eventually did, of course, but only after significant cajoling past the point where a non-skeevy person would have let it drop).
Trust your gut, if he's making you feel creeped out, then he is very likely being creepy. You're not responsible for whether he feels offended by your asking him to stop behaving in ways that you're uncomfortable with. Decent humans respect one another's boundaries. Draw a bright line boundary and let him be the one responsible for his own feelings.
posted by axiom at 8:39 PM on September 6, 2014
What the hell? Look, that's not a normal thing to say, even being flirty.
You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?
This suggests he feels somehow entitled to know anything about you that you clearly are not open to volunteering. It's not as if you couldn't have given him the URL to your online portfolio by writing it down (which is what you eventually did, of course, but only after significant cajoling past the point where a non-skeevy person would have let it drop).
Trust your gut, if he's making you feel creeped out, then he is very likely being creepy. You're not responsible for whether he feels offended by your asking him to stop behaving in ways that you're uncomfortable with. Decent humans respect one another's boundaries. Draw a bright line boundary and let him be the one responsible for his own feelings.
posted by axiom at 8:39 PM on September 6, 2014
I can't tell if his behavior is just overt but harmless friendliness or creepy flirtatiousness.
I vote creepy, and I really like DarlingBri's suggestion.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 8:40 PM on September 6, 2014
I vote creepy, and I really like DarlingBri's suggestion.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 8:40 PM on September 6, 2014
I'm female and in my 30s. Two important things I know now that I didn't know in my 20s:
1) If a guy (or anyone at all, really) is making me feel uncomfortable, I should pay attention to that feeling rather than making excuses for the person/telling myself I'm being silly/etc.
2) I don't need to be nice to everyone. Being coldly polite is a good way to handle certain situations.
I like the suggestion above: "I'm just here for the dancing." imo, he was pretty rude when he said "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?" - so there was definitely no need to worry about being nice. I would've said, "That's right, no need for you to know any of my personal information - I'm just here for the dancing!"
posted by sunflower16 at 8:42 PM on September 6, 2014
1) If a guy (or anyone at all, really) is making me feel uncomfortable, I should pay attention to that feeling rather than making excuses for the person/telling myself I'm being silly/etc.
2) I don't need to be nice to everyone. Being coldly polite is a good way to handle certain situations.
I like the suggestion above: "I'm just here for the dancing." imo, he was pretty rude when he said "You don't want me to know anything about you, do you?" - so there was definitely no need to worry about being nice. I would've said, "That's right, no need for you to know any of my personal information - I'm just here for the dancing!"
posted by sunflower16 at 8:42 PM on September 6, 2014
The next time he says something flirty to me--although I really hope I can avoid seeing him again for awhile--should I just write it off as harmless?
But it's not harmless. It makes you feel uncomfortable.
It doesn't matter whether he's trying to be friendly or creepy or whatever. His intentions don't change how his behaviour makes you feel. And you're not responsible for his feelings.
I agree with DarlingBri's approach.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:43 PM on September 6, 2014
But it's not harmless. It makes you feel uncomfortable.
It doesn't matter whether he's trying to be friendly or creepy or whatever. His intentions don't change how his behaviour makes you feel. And you're not responsible for his feelings.
I agree with DarlingBri's approach.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:43 PM on September 6, 2014
I like DarlingBri's answer too. Another thing that helps in those moments when you're taken aback and don't know what to say and the silence is awkward and embarrassing - just say what you're thinking. "Well, that was a creepy thing to say, Steve." Now he's on defense.
posted by ctmf at 8:55 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by ctmf at 8:55 PM on September 6, 2014
He's being creepy and counting on you to let him continue to do so because you've been socialized to be a nice girl and taught that niceness will keep you safe.
It won't.
He may be "only" an entitled creeper and, not say, a rapist, but creeping is bad enough. He knows you're uncomfortable. He doesn't care. Or worse, he likes making you uncomfortable.
I'm not sure how to give you the courage to break with your programming and tell him to knock it off. But that's what you need to do.
He won't like it...he may just be snitty, or he may blow up and then complain about you.
You might be able to preempt this by telling the organizers that he makes you uncomfortable enough to consider leaving and he is likely to run off others as well. It depends on how they see him.
But he won't stop on his own, so you either have to stand up to him or keep letting him ruin your fun hobby.
posted by emjaybee at 9:21 PM on September 6, 2014
It won't.
He may be "only" an entitled creeper and, not say, a rapist, but creeping is bad enough. He knows you're uncomfortable. He doesn't care. Or worse, he likes making you uncomfortable.
I'm not sure how to give you the courage to break with your programming and tell him to knock it off. But that's what you need to do.
He won't like it...he may just be snitty, or he may blow up and then complain about you.
You might be able to preempt this by telling the organizers that he makes you uncomfortable enough to consider leaving and he is likely to run off others as well. It depends on how they see him.
But he won't stop on his own, so you either have to stand up to him or keep letting him ruin your fun hobby.
posted by emjaybee at 9:21 PM on September 6, 2014
Now that I know it's not just me, all these answers have me feeling worked up and eager to tell this guy off. But I don't see him all that often; I usually go to the dance late enough that he's left by then. The beginner lesson was an exception because I was bringing a friend who hadn't done swing in a long time. But I'll inevitably see him again, and I'd like to get my feelings out now, rather than wait for the "opportunity" to suffer one of his creepy come-ons again.
I still have his email address in my account history, it seems. I know it would probably be more effective to address this issue face to face, but would it be a bad idea to send him an email saying I don't appreciate his remarks while the latest creepy remarks are still fresh?
OR, should I email the organizers, explain the situation and get their thoughts/give them a head's up first before I contact this guy? That seems like the smarter route.
posted by dean_deen at 9:27 PM on September 6, 2014
I still have his email address in my account history, it seems. I know it would probably be more effective to address this issue face to face, but would it be a bad idea to send him an email saying I don't appreciate his remarks while the latest creepy remarks are still fresh?
OR, should I email the organizers, explain the situation and get their thoughts/give them a head's up first before I contact this guy? That seems like the smarter route.
posted by dean_deen at 9:27 PM on September 6, 2014
I don't know if this behaviour's got a name, but it is so familiar to me from my own experience that I only got halfway through your question before starting to mutter "it's That Thing! He's doing That Thing!"
The Steves I've known are harmless, I suppose, in that they're not actively predatory. But they do know they're making you uncomfortable, and this does not bother them. Having seen several Steves do pretty much this exact routine with me or friends when I/we were younger and shyer, I think now that the awkwardness they generate is something they're actually trying to create. Either they have a view of flirting where this is how it works - they the older experienced one makes the suggestions, you the young innocent are flustered and shy - or, less charitably, they are using that as a kind of plausible deniability because they know they're making you feel awkward, and they also know you won't call them on it because hey, they're just being friendly! And this way they get all the flirty interaction they want because it doesn't really matter if you're interested or not. I have one friend who's like a magnet for this kind of man and it is amazing how similar their behaviour is.
I would call him on it - I like DarlingBri's and ctmf's suggestions. He will probably act, and possibly be, shocked/offended/hurt (but I'm betting he'll go with 'hurt', so you'll feel bad for him and be more likely to take it back...), but stick to your guns - you're just here for the dancing. You are not being mean to be direct with him.
posted by Catseye at 9:30 PM on September 6, 2014
The Steves I've known are harmless, I suppose, in that they're not actively predatory. But they do know they're making you uncomfortable, and this does not bother them. Having seen several Steves do pretty much this exact routine with me or friends when I/we were younger and shyer, I think now that the awkwardness they generate is something they're actually trying to create. Either they have a view of flirting where this is how it works - they the older experienced one makes the suggestions, you the young innocent are flustered and shy - or, less charitably, they are using that as a kind of plausible deniability because they know they're making you feel awkward, and they also know you won't call them on it because hey, they're just being friendly! And this way they get all the flirty interaction they want because it doesn't really matter if you're interested or not. I have one friend who's like a magnet for this kind of man and it is amazing how similar their behaviour is.
I would call him on it - I like DarlingBri's and ctmf's suggestions. He will probably act, and possibly be, shocked/offended/hurt (but I'm betting he'll go with 'hurt', so you'll feel bad for him and be more likely to take it back...), but stick to your guns - you're just here for the dancing. You are not being mean to be direct with him.
posted by Catseye at 9:30 PM on September 6, 2014
An additional note: Talking to him during another beginner lesson, were I to go to one, could get ugly and awkward because we usually rotate and end up dancing with the same person multiple times throughout the night. So I could address him and then have to dance with him again, or just air things out and sit out of the rest of the lesson (which I don't actually mind doing, because I'm past the point where these beginner lessons are anything new, though it does seem messed up that I would have to step out to avoid the ensuing awkwardness with this person).
posted by dean_deen at 9:32 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by dean_deen at 9:32 PM on September 6, 2014
Definitely incredibly creepy comments. I would advise you not to email him. You don't know his motives, and for all you know, contacting him could invite more interest on his part. Have your response prepared for the next time, but also keep in mind that you don't have to dance with him. Talk to the organizers about it and when it's your turn to dance with him, you can state that his previous comments make dancing with him uncomfortable. And then move on to the next partner. Don't let him debate you and don't apologize.
posted by Sal and Richard at 9:37 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by Sal and Richard at 9:37 PM on September 6, 2014
Don't confront him or send him an email. He wants your attention. Do not give it to him. He does not have the right to your attention. It is possible to snub someone and still keep your dignity. When he asks a question, answer with one or two words, and walk away. Avoid dancing with him. After a few times, he should get the hint. If he tries to confront you about it, look him in the eye and say, "I don't know what you are talking about. I'm sure you have me confused with someone else. I do not know you another well enough for you to be saying this." And then walk away.
If he creeps you out, you have to trust that instinct and respect it.
posted by myselfasme at 9:37 PM on September 6, 2014
If he creeps you out, you have to trust that instinct and respect it.
posted by myselfasme at 9:37 PM on September 6, 2014
I'm male and in my 40s. This guy gives *me* the creeps. Hey Creepy Steve, don't hit on women who could be your daughter's age.
Creepy Steve has very little in the way of social skills and that manifests itself in him saying inappropriate things to you. Don't write it off, and definitely say something to Creepy Steve.
Personally I think 50 year old Creepy Steve is in this class because it is filled with 20 somethings. Sorry Creepy Steve, ain't gonna happen buddy.
posted by Rob Rockets at 9:43 PM on September 6, 2014
Creepy Steve has very little in the way of social skills and that manifests itself in him saying inappropriate things to you. Don't write it off, and definitely say something to Creepy Steve.
Personally I think 50 year old Creepy Steve is in this class because it is filled with 20 somethings. Sorry Creepy Steve, ain't gonna happen buddy.
posted by Rob Rockets at 9:43 PM on September 6, 2014
You need to be careful of your safety also. Are you going alone to these dances? Where do you park? Do you carry your mobile? Get some apps and let people know where you are going for these dances and also if possible mention this in detail to someone close to you with his name etc. AND let him know that you did so. SAFETY first.
posted by jellyjam at 9:48 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by jellyjam at 9:48 PM on September 6, 2014
I know it would probably be more effective to address this issue face to face, but would it be a bad idea to send him an email saying I don't appreciate his remarks while the latest creepy remarks are still fresh?
No, I don't think that's a good idea. That will just invite a response by email. The 'don't feed the troll' rule applies here.
If he makes another pass, shut him down clearly and unequivocally, without apology. But otherwise, don't engage.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:02 PM on September 6, 2014
No, I don't think that's a good idea. That will just invite a response by email. The 'don't feed the troll' rule applies here.
If he makes another pass, shut him down clearly and unequivocally, without apology. But otherwise, don't engage.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:02 PM on September 6, 2014
Creepy. Getting peeved like you 'owe' him a business card? So creepy.
No need to escalate, NO face to face confrontation, just ice him out.
Beginner lesson - when it's a turn with him, oh my foot hurts I'll just sit this one out. Or suddenly have an important call for those 3-4 minutes. Or go to the bathroom.
No apologies.
If he gets uppity still, then you can mention it to the organizers. Don't unload, just keep it classy. "Hey I thought I'd let you know Steve's been making me uncomfortable for a while now." They can talk to Steve for you and let him know "some people" feel he's out of line. If they value their clientele, they'll shut him down quick.
Make more friends at this group. Notice who else avoids Steve and stick with those people.
My vote is he's mostly harmless but it's good practice to have a standard bitchface that you can pull out at will.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:08 PM on September 6, 2014
No need to escalate, NO face to face confrontation, just ice him out.
Beginner lesson - when it's a turn with him, oh my foot hurts I'll just sit this one out. Or suddenly have an important call for those 3-4 minutes. Or go to the bathroom.
No apologies.
If he gets uppity still, then you can mention it to the organizers. Don't unload, just keep it classy. "Hey I thought I'd let you know Steve's been making me uncomfortable for a while now." They can talk to Steve for you and let him know "some people" feel he's out of line. If they value their clientele, they'll shut him down quick.
Make more friends at this group. Notice who else avoids Steve and stick with those people.
My vote is he's mostly harmless but it's good practice to have a standard bitchface that you can pull out at will.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 10:08 PM on September 6, 2014
I've got an in-law that's a Steve. Overly long hugs for everyone, inappropriate comments, just generally gives all the women in my family the creeps, and is completely oblivious to all social cues. He seems harmless but I wouldn't encourage anyone to intentionally spend time with him. Best case, the same is true about your Steve. That's not a very appealing best case.
posted by foodgeek at 10:14 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by foodgeek at 10:14 PM on September 6, 2014
I think that if your intuition is telling you there's something off about this guy, you should trust that.
Reading jellyjam's comment, though, and reading over what you've written here, I don't actually think this guy is dangerous in the sense of jumping you in the parking lot or anything like that, because after you gave Steve that business card--which, by the way, please don't let concerns over being "rude" take precedence over that gut feeling you are having! Your Safety always comes first!-- he didn't attempt to contact you outside of class.
Since that was back in June, and although he sounds a bit creepy to me, too, it is reassuring me somewhat that despite being unreasonably upset by your "not wanting him to know anything about" you, he did at least respect that wish and didn't ignore your boundaries by bothering you outside of class.
Definitely call him on it if he says or does anything that makes you uncomfortable, though!
posted by misha at 10:32 PM on September 6, 2014
Reading jellyjam's comment, though, and reading over what you've written here, I don't actually think this guy is dangerous in the sense of jumping you in the parking lot or anything like that, because after you gave Steve that business card--which, by the way, please don't let concerns over being "rude" take precedence over that gut feeling you are having! Your Safety always comes first!-- he didn't attempt to contact you outside of class.
Since that was back in June, and although he sounds a bit creepy to me, too, it is reassuring me somewhat that despite being unreasonably upset by your "not wanting him to know anything about" you, he did at least respect that wish and didn't ignore your boundaries by bothering you outside of class.
Definitely call him on it if he says or does anything that makes you uncomfortable, though!
posted by misha at 10:32 PM on September 6, 2014
Don't email him, he may turn you into " that crazy broad who suddenly emailed me out of nowhere".
Odds are you are not the only one who thinks he's creepy.
Maybe say something like "I really don't appreciate the flirty stuff, knock it off, ok." If he won't quit, complain. I think most dance studios have to deal with this issue occasionally.
posted by BoscosMom at 10:32 PM on September 6, 2014
Odds are you are not the only one who thinks he's creepy.
Maybe say something like "I really don't appreciate the flirty stuff, knock it off, ok." If he won't quit, complain. I think most dance studios have to deal with this issue occasionally.
posted by BoscosMom at 10:32 PM on September 6, 2014
I meant to add that I agree emailing him is a Bad idea. Do NOT initiate any contact with Steve; he is the type to misread it in the worst way.
posted by misha at 10:43 PM on September 6, 2014
posted by misha at 10:43 PM on September 6, 2014
Also a swing dancer - I think your very best approach if you're feeling consistently uncomfortable is to talk to the organizers of your class and/or dance. You want to minimize interaction, not spark up a lot of feeling with emailing etc. Cause, y'know, this guy is (or should be) a very minimal presence in your life and you should treat him accordingly.
posted by scribbler at 1:10 AM on September 7, 2014
posted by scribbler at 1:10 AM on September 7, 2014
but would it be a bad idea to send him an email saying I don't appreciate his remarks while the latest creepy remarks are still fresh?
Yes, this would be a bad idea because you'd be giving him attention, which he'd probably take as encouragement. Stick with Darling Bri's suggestion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:22 AM on September 7, 2014
Yes, this would be a bad idea because you'd be giving him attention, which he'd probably take as encouragement. Stick with Darling Bri's suggestion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:22 AM on September 7, 2014
I haven't seen you in forever. Where have you been?
this is a perfect opportunity to give him a brittle smile, say "oh I've just been avoiding you" and walk away.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 4:29 AM on September 7, 2014
this is a perfect opportunity to give him a brittle smile, say "oh I've just been avoiding you" and walk away.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 4:29 AM on September 7, 2014
Listen to your gut. Your gut is telling you "hell no" and so act accordingly. If I were you, I'd contact whoever organises these dance sessions and tell them exactly how creepy you are finding Steve's behaviour.
Do not say "I know it's probably just me but .." or "I'm sorry but.." or "Sorry but.." (YOU ARE NOT THE GUILTY PARTY)
Do say "Steve's behaviour towards me has been creeping me out and I think you should know" or "Steve has pressing me for personal details and I find this inappropriate" (FOCUS ON STEVE'S BEHAVIOUR)
There are many Steves in the world, unfortunately. Men who think them giving you attention means you owe them something in return; men who don't realise their attention might be crossing several boundaries. Think of this as a practise run of something that'll unfortunately happen again and will probably happen in circumstances less forgiving than a dance class.
posted by kariebookish at 6:03 AM on September 7, 2014
Do not say "I know it's probably just me but .." or "I'm sorry but.." or "Sorry but.." (YOU ARE NOT THE GUILTY PARTY)
Do say "Steve's behaviour towards me has been creeping me out and I think you should know" or "Steve has pressing me for personal details and I find this inappropriate" (FOCUS ON STEVE'S BEHAVIOUR)
There are many Steves in the world, unfortunately. Men who think them giving you attention means you owe them something in return; men who don't realise their attention might be crossing several boundaries. Think of this as a practise run of something that'll unfortunately happen again and will probably happen in circumstances less forgiving than a dance class.
posted by kariebookish at 6:03 AM on September 7, 2014
Next time Steve says something "flirty":
You: "Are you flirting with me?" (In a flat, cold, disaffected, not-at-all flirty tone.)
Steve: "Hababeebop splutter splutter NO! I'm just being friendly."
You: "Good, because I think it would be pretty weird if you flirted with me, since you're old enough to be my grandfather and it would be very uncomfortable for me."
Chance are, he'd stop creeping at you.
posted by mibo at 6:14 AM on September 7, 2014
You: "Are you flirting with me?" (In a flat, cold, disaffected, not-at-all flirty tone.)
Steve: "Hababeebop splutter splutter NO! I'm just being friendly."
You: "Good, because I think it would be pretty weird if you flirted with me, since you're old enough to be my grandfather and it would be very uncomfortable for me."
Chance are, he'd stop creeping at you.
posted by mibo at 6:14 AM on September 7, 2014
So I could address him and then have to dance with him again, or just air things out and sit out of the rest of the lesson... though it does seem messed up that I would have to step out to avoid the ensuing awkwardness with this person...
Muscle through it. Look, women are socialised differently than men, and the awkwardness is because you've made someone uncomfortable. That discomfort is not your weight to carry. It is very hard to live that truth, but it is true, so just fake it for awhile.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:19 AM on September 7, 2014
Muscle through it. Look, women are socialised differently than men, and the awkwardness is because you've made someone uncomfortable. That discomfort is not your weight to carry. It is very hard to live that truth, but it is true, so just fake it for awhile.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:19 AM on September 7, 2014
Nobody has suggested The Gift of Fear yet, so let me be the one to suggest that. It's worth reading -- not just for Creepy Steve, but for other people who will push your boundaries over the years.
When you're female, you get socialized to ignore these things, to value Creepy Steve's feelings over your own. That's bullshit. Your feelings matter. You feeling comfortable matters. I personally found The Gift of Fear very helpful in letting me internalize that.
Also, if Creepy Steve is legit not creepy, but just awkward, that is ALSO NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
I've been part of a similar group environment in the past, and when a dude who was well-meaning but old enough to be my dad made a comment that made me uncomfortable, I looked him in the eye and said "Dude, that's not appropriate. Please stop it." And the dude apologized, and didn't say anything like that again, and we're still friendly, and all is well with the world. Because he was well-meaning and didn't realize it was a comment that would make me uncomfortable, and as soon as I pointed it out, he knocked it off.
If Creepy Steve reacts to your "Dude, knock it off" with anything but an apology or letting it drop and leaving you alone, that means he doesn't think you have the right to set boundaries. And that means that Creepy Steve is bad news bears, and I personally would talk to the organizers about him. As other people have said, you're probably not the only one.
And yeah, don't email him. That just gives him a reason to escalate.
posted by pie ninja at 8:50 AM on September 7, 2014
When you're female, you get socialized to ignore these things, to value Creepy Steve's feelings over your own. That's bullshit. Your feelings matter. You feeling comfortable matters. I personally found The Gift of Fear very helpful in letting me internalize that.
Also, if Creepy Steve is legit not creepy, but just awkward, that is ALSO NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
I've been part of a similar group environment in the past, and when a dude who was well-meaning but old enough to be my dad made a comment that made me uncomfortable, I looked him in the eye and said "Dude, that's not appropriate. Please stop it." And the dude apologized, and didn't say anything like that again, and we're still friendly, and all is well with the world. Because he was well-meaning and didn't realize it was a comment that would make me uncomfortable, and as soon as I pointed it out, he knocked it off.
If Creepy Steve reacts to your "Dude, knock it off" with anything but an apology or letting it drop and leaving you alone, that means he doesn't think you have the right to set boundaries. And that means that Creepy Steve is bad news bears, and I personally would talk to the organizers about him. As other people have said, you're probably not the only one.
And yeah, don't email him. That just gives him a reason to escalate.
posted by pie ninja at 8:50 AM on September 7, 2014
Sounds like he's using the excuse of just being a "harmless old guy/gal" like a certain subset of older people do to get away with behaviour you wouldn't accept in a second from someone your own age. Politely but firmly call him on it using DarlingBri's suggestion.
Also all the people saying a guy in his fifties is old enough to have a granddaughter in her 20's in making my 46 year old ass feel even older & slightly concerned by the number of teenage pregnancies that would have entailed.
posted by wwax at 10:47 AM on September 7, 2014
Also all the people saying a guy in his fifties is old enough to have a granddaughter in her 20's in making my 46 year old ass feel even older & slightly concerned by the number of teenage pregnancies that would have entailed.
posted by wwax at 10:47 AM on September 7, 2014
This guy makes me feel uncomfortable
Act accordingly.
posted by oceanjesse at 3:00 PM on September 7, 2014
Act accordingly.
posted by oceanjesse at 3:00 PM on September 7, 2014
Brit male (lead) swing dancer here: There's a tension between wanting to be inclusive and dealing with problems that occur, and from my reading (see below) I get the impression that scenes have erred to far towards the inclusive side (scene organisers presumably find confrontation difficult too). Some scenes are heavily into the "it's rude to refuse a dance" thing, but I'm against saying that to anyone (there are other ways to get across the sentiment that we're all there to be social and so you shouldn't be shy of asking).
I think there's a sort of graded approach you can take depending on how uncomfortable you are, that is, you can deal with this socially or more officially by talking to the organisers. On the "socially" side, forming alliances with other follows is good (as well as with the nice leads, but some of the time, we don't know who the bad guys are unless you tell us). You're not obligated to dance with anyone who asks you at a social dance, and in the rotation in a lesson, you can be icily polite while making it clear with your body language that you're waiting for the next rotation to come along ASAP.
If it escalates, talk to the organisers. Persist if they're of the "lindy is all shiny rainbows and no-one ever does anything bad" variety.
(One thing I do not like, and which you, OP, have disclaimed, is the implication that all old guys at a younger scene are creepers: one day I hope to be an old guy who still dances).
If you like blogs, there's plenty of discussion about this out there (e.g. Yehoodi's old thread on creepy leads). Read dogpossum's blog for feminist perspectives on swing dancing, she is thoughtful and doesn't take any crap (I'm thinking about this post about sexual violence, mainly).
posted by pw201 at 3:56 AM on September 8, 2014
I think there's a sort of graded approach you can take depending on how uncomfortable you are, that is, you can deal with this socially or more officially by talking to the organisers. On the "socially" side, forming alliances with other follows is good (as well as with the nice leads, but some of the time, we don't know who the bad guys are unless you tell us). You're not obligated to dance with anyone who asks you at a social dance, and in the rotation in a lesson, you can be icily polite while making it clear with your body language that you're waiting for the next rotation to come along ASAP.
If it escalates, talk to the organisers. Persist if they're of the "lindy is all shiny rainbows and no-one ever does anything bad" variety.
(One thing I do not like, and which you, OP, have disclaimed, is the implication that all old guys at a younger scene are creepers: one day I hope to be an old guy who still dances).
If you like blogs, there's plenty of discussion about this out there (e.g. Yehoodi's old thread on creepy leads). Read dogpossum's blog for feminist perspectives on swing dancing, she is thoughtful and doesn't take any crap (I'm thinking about this post about sexual violence, mainly).
posted by pw201 at 3:56 AM on September 8, 2014
Thank you, everyone. I did email the president of the organization that holds these dances explaining the behavior that made me uncomfortable and saying that next time it occurs, I plan on saying something to him. I explained that I just wanted to bring the situation to her attention in case he responds by complaining to her or another person.
The person I contacted is also an older twenty-something female who's very friendly. From the few times I've interacted with her, she doesn't strike me as someone who would be comfortable with confrontation. She said she hated to hear I was uncomfortable and also agreed that this person can be overly aggressive sometimes. She said she was going to give the board a head's up for any complaints about this guy and told me I should be in contact with her, should I need anything else.
Unfortunately, I get the feeling that this particular community isn't so great at dealing with the bad seeds, like the ones pw201 has referred to. Looking back, it might have been a better strategy to contact a male organizer I know a bit better who also knows Steve--maybe he would have been a little more proactive about the situation?
Either way, my contact with Steve is pretty minimal, so I don't expect to have to interact with him soon in the near future. But when I do, at least I'll have a better idea of how to handle it. I will try to update this thread accordingly with any further updates.
posted by dean_deen at 7:28 AM on September 8, 2014
The person I contacted is also an older twenty-something female who's very friendly. From the few times I've interacted with her, she doesn't strike me as someone who would be comfortable with confrontation. She said she hated to hear I was uncomfortable and also agreed that this person can be overly aggressive sometimes. She said she was going to give the board a head's up for any complaints about this guy and told me I should be in contact with her, should I need anything else.
Unfortunately, I get the feeling that this particular community isn't so great at dealing with the bad seeds, like the ones pw201 has referred to. Looking back, it might have been a better strategy to contact a male organizer I know a bit better who also knows Steve--maybe he would have been a little more proactive about the situation?
Either way, my contact with Steve is pretty minimal, so I don't expect to have to interact with him soon in the near future. But when I do, at least I'll have a better idea of how to handle it. I will try to update this thread accordingly with any further updates.
posted by dean_deen at 7:28 AM on September 8, 2014
Whoops. I meant to say "give the board a head's up for any complaints FROM this guy," not "about this guy." But hopefully they'll be on the lookout for that, as well.
posted by dean_deen at 7:34 AM on September 8, 2014
posted by dean_deen at 7:34 AM on September 8, 2014
The sad thing I've noticed now that I'm older, is that my guy friends my age(50-ish)still think they're 25 and that all the babes are still hot for them. I have to constantly tell them to quit being "the creepy old guy". Sometimes I think they don't realize that they're old, lol. Just be cool with him and if need be tell him flat out that he's a creepy old guy or he reminds you of your dad(they hate that).
posted by PJMoore at 12:43 PM on September 8, 2014
posted by PJMoore at 12:43 PM on September 8, 2014
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This thread is closed to new comments.
Still, this strikes me as a little on the edge. I would assume that Steve is going to the social dances in an effort to make friends and possibly to meet a girlfriend (as this is something often recommended for single men with limited social skills).
Next time he says something borderline I'd say, "Steve, you're making me feel uncomfortable right now. Please stop." And just leave it there.
If he keeps pushing, I'd talk to the dance organizers. If you're uncomfortable I suspect you're not the only one.
posted by arnicae at 8:07 PM on September 6, 2014