Guns in the jungle around 1920?
December 3, 2013 12:12 PM
I'm writing a story and I need to know any difficulties an army might have keeping guns in a jungle environment around the 1900s to 1920s. I know nothing about guns.
This has been difficult to Google; most information is about modern guns and in a typical environment.
What kind of guns would be available around this time for military-type use? Are there particular features you'd want, or not want, in a jungle? Any problems I should know about?
Would they rust in such a humid environment? If so, what do you do to prevent it? How useful would a gun be in this time/environment if rusted? Does it depend?
Do you have to take special precautions to keep gun powder from getting wet in a jungle environment? If it gets a bit wet, is it still useable? Is that even an issue with the types of guns/bullets for this era?
What is something negligent that might cause a gun to malfunction in this environment? What would a malfunction look like: does it just not fire, or might someone be hurt?
It's a fantasy story with technology roughly parallel to the early 1900s. Any information is helpful since I know practically nothing even after a lot of Googling.
This has been difficult to Google; most information is about modern guns and in a typical environment.
What kind of guns would be available around this time for military-type use? Are there particular features you'd want, or not want, in a jungle? Any problems I should know about?
Would they rust in such a humid environment? If so, what do you do to prevent it? How useful would a gun be in this time/environment if rusted? Does it depend?
Do you have to take special precautions to keep gun powder from getting wet in a jungle environment? If it gets a bit wet, is it still useable? Is that even an issue with the types of guns/bullets for this era?
What is something negligent that might cause a gun to malfunction in this environment? What would a malfunction look like: does it just not fire, or might someone be hurt?
It's a fantasy story with technology roughly parallel to the early 1900s. Any information is helpful since I know practically nothing even after a lot of Googling.
The Lee Enfield was the standard British army issue from 1895 until 1957. These were bolt action, magazine fed rifles firing a .303 cartridge. I would imagine with proper care and frequent use a jungle environment would scarcely have any impact on them.
posted by three blind mice at 12:32 PM on December 3, 2013
posted by three blind mice at 12:32 PM on December 3, 2013
Would they rust in such a humid environment? If so, what do you do to prevent it? How useful would a gun be in this time/environment if rusted? Does it depend?
Guns rust when they get wet (eventually). There is lots of information you could find on this topic about Vietnam. Guns take a long time to rust and will still work when mildly rusted. Guns are oiled to keep them working smoothly and prevent this.
Do you have to take special precautions to keep gun powder from getting wet in a jungle environment? If it gets a bit wet, is it still useable? Is that even an issue with the types of guns/bullets for this era?
This is irrelevant, guns of this are use modern cartridge ammunition that will work even if completely submerged.
What is something negligent that might cause a gun to malfunction in this environment? What would a malfunction look like: does it just not fire, or might someone be hurt?
A dirty gun (potentially muddy or whatever) is likely to fail to fire because the mechanical parts in it are gummed up and not moving properly. It is very unlikely to fail in a dangerous way, but could, especially if the barrel is plugged up.
This page shows a more modern firearm being abused but you can get a sense of the sort of thing that does and doesn't ruin a gun or cause it to misfire. A 1911 pistol, is not as reliable as the Glock on this page, and will clog up with dirt and stop working sooner, but the fundamental idea is the same.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:34 PM on December 3, 2013
Guns rust when they get wet (eventually). There is lots of information you could find on this topic about Vietnam. Guns take a long time to rust and will still work when mildly rusted. Guns are oiled to keep them working smoothly and prevent this.
Do you have to take special precautions to keep gun powder from getting wet in a jungle environment? If it gets a bit wet, is it still useable? Is that even an issue with the types of guns/bullets for this era?
This is irrelevant, guns of this are use modern cartridge ammunition that will work even if completely submerged.
What is something negligent that might cause a gun to malfunction in this environment? What would a malfunction look like: does it just not fire, or might someone be hurt?
A dirty gun (potentially muddy or whatever) is likely to fail to fire because the mechanical parts in it are gummed up and not moving properly. It is very unlikely to fail in a dangerous way, but could, especially if the barrel is plugged up.
This page shows a more modern firearm being abused but you can get a sense of the sort of thing that does and doesn't ruin a gun or cause it to misfire. A 1911 pistol, is not as reliable as the Glock on this page, and will clog up with dirt and stop working sooner, but the fundamental idea is the same.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:34 PM on December 3, 2013
The famous great gun from that time period is the Lee Enfield Rifle. Some Lee Enfield rifles were still in use during WWII. Like most rifles (including the modern M16), if the rifle got dirty or wet, it would jam.
In untrained hands, a Lee Enfield would surely jam up and break-down after prolonged exposure in the jungle. Trained soldiers would be cleaning their weapons EVERY night in that environment. A well maintained Lee Enfield rifles served British soldiers well in jungles in Asia and Africa during that time frame.
posted by Flood at 12:44 PM on December 3, 2013
In untrained hands, a Lee Enfield would surely jam up and break-down after prolonged exposure in the jungle. Trained soldiers would be cleaning their weapons EVERY night in that environment. A well maintained Lee Enfield rifles served British soldiers well in jungles in Asia and Africa during that time frame.
posted by Flood at 12:44 PM on December 3, 2013
I know little anout guns but suggest you might try searching under WWI weapons and failure. Bad ammunition could turn something up.
Here's a wiki piece about the "chauchat" WWI gun that failed due to poor magazines.
posted by ecorrocio at 1:03 PM on December 3, 2013
Here's a wiki piece about the "chauchat" WWI gun that failed due to poor magazines.
posted by ecorrocio at 1:03 PM on December 3, 2013
On my "I've reason to expect the author got it right but will wait to buy it 'til I'm writing about that subject", are you aware of Throwing Lead: A Writer's Guide to Firearms (and the People Who Use Them) by J. Daniel Sawyer and Mary Mason, illustrated by Kitty NicIaian? I suspect that Mr. Sawyer (don't tell him I called him that) either answers most of your questions in there, or would if you asked him in the context of having read it.
posted by straw at 1:18 PM on December 3, 2013
posted by straw at 1:18 PM on December 3, 2013
Rounds from that era would predate non-corrosive primers, meaning the bore ends up coated in potassium chloride salt every time the gun is fired, a problem in humid jungle environments as the salt would hold moisture from the air and accelerate rusting.
posted by Venadium at 2:09 PM on December 3, 2013
posted by Venadium at 2:09 PM on December 3, 2013
For context, search for contemporary documents:
Internet Archive, subject:(shooting, military) AND date:[1900-01-01 TO 1921-01-01]
Scribd WW1 Manuals (Triple Entente and Central Powers) Collection
The Rifle in War, 1908
Description and Rules for the Management of the United States Rifle, Caliber .30
posted by zamboni at 3:23 PM on December 3, 2013
Internet Archive, subject:(shooting, military) AND date:[1900-01-01 TO 1921-01-01]
Scribd WW1 Manuals (Triple Entente and Central Powers) Collection
The Rifle in War, 1908
Description and Rules for the Management of the United States Rifle, Caliber .30
posted by zamboni at 3:23 PM on December 3, 2013
It's worth looking at the failure of the Ross Rifle, which was designed in 1903. It proved itself to be a very good sniper rifle under ideal conditions, and a miserable failure under battlefield conditions.
Definitely take a good look at the Burma Campaign of WWII. British and Allied troops fought in monsoon conditions for years.
By the 1920s, modern armies had pretty much stopped using gunpowder for rifles and artillery pieces, and had moved on to using "smokeless powders" such as cordite.
Most of the military rifles of the early 20th century were bolt-actions. They were made of wood, iron, and brass. You would need to clean and oil them all the time to keep them from rusting or jamming. Here is what happens when you cycle a bolt-action Mauser- try to imagine what would happen if those mechanisms got dirty or rusty.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 3:58 PM on December 3, 2013
Definitely take a good look at the Burma Campaign of WWII. British and Allied troops fought in monsoon conditions for years.
By the 1920s, modern armies had pretty much stopped using gunpowder for rifles and artillery pieces, and had moved on to using "smokeless powders" such as cordite.
Most of the military rifles of the early 20th century were bolt-actions. They were made of wood, iron, and brass. You would need to clean and oil them all the time to keep them from rusting or jamming. Here is what happens when you cycle a bolt-action Mauser- try to imagine what would happen if those mechanisms got dirty or rusty.
posted by Multicellular Exothermic at 3:58 PM on December 3, 2013
The most commonly issued military rifle of that era would be a variant of the 1898 Mauser Rifle (or 98 Mauser). It is estimated that well over 100 million were made. The 1903 Springfield was one of the many variants of this rifle and it is still in use today as a parade weapon and hunting rifle (I own 5 different ones all converted to some degree or another for hunting). This wikipedia article covers them well.
If the military wasn't part of the British empire they used a mauser. If they were part of the british empire they used the Lee-Enfield or specefically the No1Mk3 SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) mentioned above. Here is the relevant wikipedia article.
You don't mention what jungle or army but those two rifles would cover about 90% of the possiblities. if it is an archaic force or partisans or such they very well could be using the Martini Henry single shot rifle or trapdoor springfields.
A machine gun would likely be a variant of the maxim gun.
The variants of all these have important differences but are impossible to cover without more information about location and forces involved
Ammunition in everything military of this time would be fully sealed brass case round with a lead bullet covered in a copper Full Metal Jacket. Military ammunition is usually quite good and pretty impervious to environmental conditions. I personally have shot British ammunition dated from WW1 with no ill effects whatsoever. And a large part of my practice ammunition is military surplus from the early 50's that shoots really well so ammunition is going to be fine, reliable and reasonably accurate.
Any officers would be armed with handguns as well. The german Luger, the british webley revolver, the colt revolver (the peacemaker), a smith&wesson police revolver or the U.S. 1911 (a very expensive gun at this point in history). In a military context handguns are largely ceremonial and serve more as a demonstration of rank than any real practical purpose. (out of time but they all have big pages on wikipedia).
Most guns of this era are finished with a process called 'bluing' as the much superior parkerization hadn't really been invented yet. Various military firearms had a better finish than others but they all rusted in humid corrosive environments (like a jungle). But the wood stock and the rifling on the barrels would deteriorate much faster in that environment. The bore (the interior of the barrel with the rifling) will rust out really fast with the ammunition of the time or what venadium said. However this process will take years in the worst enviroments to render the gun inoperable. Like I said, I have several mauser variants I use for hunting rifles that are fine shape 100 years after they were made.
posted by bartonlong at 3:58 PM on December 3, 2013
If the military wasn't part of the British empire they used a mauser. If they were part of the british empire they used the Lee-Enfield or specefically the No1Mk3 SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) mentioned above. Here is the relevant wikipedia article.
You don't mention what jungle or army but those two rifles would cover about 90% of the possiblities. if it is an archaic force or partisans or such they very well could be using the Martini Henry single shot rifle or trapdoor springfields.
A machine gun would likely be a variant of the maxim gun.
The variants of all these have important differences but are impossible to cover without more information about location and forces involved
Ammunition in everything military of this time would be fully sealed brass case round with a lead bullet covered in a copper Full Metal Jacket. Military ammunition is usually quite good and pretty impervious to environmental conditions. I personally have shot British ammunition dated from WW1 with no ill effects whatsoever. And a large part of my practice ammunition is military surplus from the early 50's that shoots really well so ammunition is going to be fine, reliable and reasonably accurate.
Any officers would be armed with handguns as well. The german Luger, the british webley revolver, the colt revolver (the peacemaker), a smith&wesson police revolver or the U.S. 1911 (a very expensive gun at this point in history). In a military context handguns are largely ceremonial and serve more as a demonstration of rank than any real practical purpose. (out of time but they all have big pages on wikipedia).
Most guns of this era are finished with a process called 'bluing' as the much superior parkerization hadn't really been invented yet. Various military firearms had a better finish than others but they all rusted in humid corrosive environments (like a jungle). But the wood stock and the rifling on the barrels would deteriorate much faster in that environment. The bore (the interior of the barrel with the rifling) will rust out really fast with the ammunition of the time or what venadium said. However this process will take years in the worst enviroments to render the gun inoperable. Like I said, I have several mauser variants I use for hunting rifles that are fine shape 100 years after they were made.
posted by bartonlong at 3:58 PM on December 3, 2013
What guns are used will depend on the characters and the setting. Guerillas will likely have stolen guns from the local armed forces, so you'd want to look into what the police and army of the country the action is in. They might have purchased them legally or illegally, depending on the rules of the country in question. They might be armed by a foreign power, as in the case of a self-defense force set-up as a counterinsurgency measure by the US Marines, or as a communist movement helped by the USSR (less likely early on, as Russia was embroiled in a civil war after WWI and it took a while to rebuild its industrial capacity). Or they may have gotten them from arms traffickers, which may well be Belgian or French. In many cases it would be likely that they used obsolete military rifles off-loaded by the armies of rich countries, such as the French Gras rifle of 1874.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 5:08 PM on December 3, 2013
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 5:08 PM on December 3, 2013
Often if dirt or cruft got into the chamber, bolt or action you'd encounter a situation after firing a round where you tried to cock your weapon and it would jam.
Now there were a few ways to deal with the jam. The best and most unlikely way is to hand it over to a gunsmith, while the second best way was to have someone hold the weapon steady down range while you use the sling to pull the cocking handle and force the jam, but that meant asking for help and if you didn't want to lose face within your group you might proceed to do something stupid like put the butt of the rifle on the ground and kick down on the bolt much like someone kickstarting a motorcycle. With luck it clears your jam the same way as pulling the bolt by pulling that sling would, but sometimes the jerk of the kick would be enough to fire off the next round and guess where the rifle was aiming when you did that.
Food for thought.
posted by furtive at 11:42 PM on December 3, 2013
Now there were a few ways to deal with the jam. The best and most unlikely way is to hand it over to a gunsmith, while the second best way was to have someone hold the weapon steady down range while you use the sling to pull the cocking handle and force the jam, but that meant asking for help and if you didn't want to lose face within your group you might proceed to do something stupid like put the butt of the rifle on the ground and kick down on the bolt much like someone kickstarting a motorcycle. With luck it clears your jam the same way as pulling the bolt by pulling that sling would, but sometimes the jerk of the kick would be enough to fire off the next round and guess where the rifle was aiming when you did that.
Food for thought.
posted by furtive at 11:42 PM on December 3, 2013
while goggling I came across this photo of US troops in the Philippines during the Moro rebellion circa 1906 Moro rebellion US Army so Springfield rifles and Krag carbines.
posted by kanemano at 12:34 AM on December 4, 2013
posted by kanemano at 12:34 AM on December 4, 2013
The Lee Enfield 4.1 derivative called the jungle carbine didn't actually come into service till 1944, but it probably wouldn't be out of place in your story.
For sidearms, there would still be plenty of service revolvers around. See here for a breakdown by country and year. These are typically portrayed as being more reliable than early semi-auto pistols, which may or may not accord with reality.
Besides the maxim gun there was also the Browning Automatic Rifle, a more portable precursor to the light machinegun.
Submachineguns, fully automatic pistols with attachable stocks, and pump-action shotguns all existed in this period.
I'd agree with what others have said about maintenance, reliability etc. Bolt-action rifles were very reliable overall, the more complex and innovative weapons less so.
posted by Drexen at 5:16 AM on December 4, 2013
For sidearms, there would still be plenty of service revolvers around. See here for a breakdown by country and year. These are typically portrayed as being more reliable than early semi-auto pistols, which may or may not accord with reality.
Besides the maxim gun there was also the Browning Automatic Rifle, a more portable precursor to the light machinegun.
Submachineguns, fully automatic pistols with attachable stocks, and pump-action shotguns all existed in this period.
I'd agree with what others have said about maintenance, reliability etc. Bolt-action rifles were very reliable overall, the more complex and innovative weapons less so.
posted by Drexen at 5:16 AM on December 4, 2013
By the way, for information on how guns *can* fail rather than on how they can't, this page and (for semi/automatic weapons) this one might be useful. Other problems might be with magazines or their housing causing the magazine to either stick or fall out (or just not feed properly).
posted by Drexen at 6:40 PM on December 4, 2013
posted by Drexen at 6:40 PM on December 4, 2013
Oh, I should add since a few of you asked... it's not any existing country's military, which is why I need a wide range of examples. I said it was a fantasy story but I just realized that doesn't necessarily convey that, my apologies. It's a made up world, with technology roughly equivalent to the early 1900s (not steampunk, though) with a few advances, so for the sake of semi-realism I want the guns to be more or less on track technologically. I thought about leaving guns out altogether and just going the sword route but it seemed REALLY unrealistic to me that an empire technologically advanced enough to have electricity would never have made a gun...
posted by Nattie at 9:52 AM on December 5, 2013
posted by Nattie at 9:52 AM on December 5, 2013
an interesting take/alternative would be a well developed compressed air rifle technology. The development of drawn brass cartridges and smokeless gunpowder (a variant of nitroglycerin really) is what delayed/halted development of that in our world. Lewis and Clark had a really neat air rifle that they used extensively on their expedition and their is no reason at all gun technology couldn't have followed that route, especially if the world had short supply of something like copper that would make disposable brass cartridges impractical. Also the very height of black power cartridge technology was the Werder Rifle, and it is a really neat design that came on the scene just as smokeless powder really took off. And the development of smokeless powder was a surprise to everyone when the french produced it (called poudreB).
posted by bartonlong at 10:01 AM on December 5, 2013
posted by bartonlong at 10:01 AM on December 5, 2013
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Whose army? Typically, there is *lots* of information available on historic firearms. For instance, around that time, the U.S. Army was issuing M1903 Springfields. There is lots and lots of information on these rifles available online. The M1911 service pistol was also coming into service with the U.S. army at that time and it has to be one of the most well-known (and well-documented) weapons of all time.
If you are talking about someone else besides the U.S. army, there is still likely to be a lot of historical information on their military weapons at the time available, especially for major world powers like Russia, Germany, and the UK.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 12:28 PM on December 3, 2013