Incognito Rolex?
November 18, 2013 10:12 AM Subscribe
From 1967 until his death, my dad wore a perpetual-movement stainless steel watch that my mother gave him when they got married. He always said it was an "incognito Rolex," and I've recently learned that there might be some truth to that. Watch-loving MeFites, can you help me discover my watch's history and teach me how to change the date on its face?
The watch was almost certainly purchased at Zell Brothers Jewelry in Portland, Oregon, in late 1966 or early 1967. In trying to learn more about Turtle watches, I ran across this forum thread that says Rolex entered the US market in the 60s through a partnership with Zell Bros., in which Zell chose to brand the watches as Turtle rather than use Rolex's name. That user posted the same information to another forum a couple of years later.
The face says "Turtle Jubilee Chronometre, Duo-Matic 23", and the back is engraved around the outer edge with "SUPREME SWISS QUALITY - STAINLESS STEEL - "O" RING FITTED - WATERPRESSURE TESTED - INCABLOC - SHOCKPROTECTED." I don't have the tools or the gumption to open the case and see what might lurk in the movement.
Is anyone familiar with the history of Rolex in the US, particularly their association with Zell Bros.? Bonus for anyone who can tell me how to change the date; with other watches, I've been able to pull the stem out to a secondary stop that changes the date, but this one doesn't seem to do that. Changing the time with the stem through 24 hours doesn't change the date, either.
[Note: this watch is well-loved. It could use a new crystal, but I'm not particularly interested in selling it unless there is some voracious market for second-hand unbranded incognito Rolexes with the previous owner's initials and wedding date engraved on the back. Otherwise, I'm gonna wear it myself.]
The watch was almost certainly purchased at Zell Brothers Jewelry in Portland, Oregon, in late 1966 or early 1967. In trying to learn more about Turtle watches, I ran across this forum thread that says Rolex entered the US market in the 60s through a partnership with Zell Bros., in which Zell chose to brand the watches as Turtle rather than use Rolex's name. That user posted the same information to another forum a couple of years later.
The face says "Turtle Jubilee Chronometre, Duo-Matic 23", and the back is engraved around the outer edge with "SUPREME SWISS QUALITY - STAINLESS STEEL - "O" RING FITTED - WATERPRESSURE TESTED - INCABLOC - SHOCKPROTECTED." I don't have the tools or the gumption to open the case and see what might lurk in the movement.
Is anyone familiar with the history of Rolex in the US, particularly their association with Zell Bros.? Bonus for anyone who can tell me how to change the date; with other watches, I've been able to pull the stem out to a secondary stop that changes the date, but this one doesn't seem to do that. Changing the time with the stem through 24 hours doesn't change the date, either.
[Note: this watch is well-loved. It could use a new crystal, but I'm not particularly interested in selling it unless there is some voracious market for second-hand unbranded incognito Rolexes with the previous owner's initials and wedding date engraved on the back. Otherwise, I'm gonna wear it myself.]
Have you seen these photos of a Turtle Jubilee Chronometre?
Seconding the National Watch & Clock suggestion.
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:52 AM on November 18, 2013
Seconding the National Watch & Clock suggestion.
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:52 AM on November 18, 2013
Very interesting! Can you post a picture?
If it looks like the watch that MonkeyToes linked to, my guess is no. My hunch is that Rolex would not have been supplying private-label watches to a regional jeweler by the 1960s. They were an established brand by then, so it wouldn't make sense for anyone involved to obscure Rolex's involvement in such a venture. (Even Rolexes sold by Tiffany and Cartier, with their names on the dial, still were also Rolex-branded.) Nothing else you've written here sounds like a Rolex - very few models (mostly Sea-Dwellers) had engraved casebacks, and I'm not aware of Rolex using any of that language on any of their watches.
If you spin the hands 24 hours and the date doesn't change, I think something's broken. Mechanical watches are not cheap to fix, but if you plan on wearing the watch, you'll want to get it serviced anyway. I'm sure it's overdue. At least then you'll know what movement is inside. (FWIW, the movement in the previous post does not look anything like a Rolex movement to me.)
posted by ndg at 10:58 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
If it looks like the watch that MonkeyToes linked to, my guess is no. My hunch is that Rolex would not have been supplying private-label watches to a regional jeweler by the 1960s. They were an established brand by then, so it wouldn't make sense for anyone involved to obscure Rolex's involvement in such a venture. (Even Rolexes sold by Tiffany and Cartier, with their names on the dial, still were also Rolex-branded.) Nothing else you've written here sounds like a Rolex - very few models (mostly Sea-Dwellers) had engraved casebacks, and I'm not aware of Rolex using any of that language on any of their watches.
If you spin the hands 24 hours and the date doesn't change, I think something's broken. Mechanical watches are not cheap to fix, but if you plan on wearing the watch, you'll want to get it serviced anyway. I'm sure it's overdue. At least then you'll know what movement is inside. (FWIW, the movement in the previous post does not look anything like a Rolex movement to me.)
posted by ndg at 10:58 AM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
A few more notes -- perhaps they'll help you narrow down the timeframe.
"These companies, Abercrombie & Fitch and Zell Brothers, sold Rolex between 1926 and 1930 and 1932 and 1940 respectively."
And this:
"The names "Turtle", "Turtle Timer", "Duo-Matic", and "Town and Country" were all registered trademarks of Zell Brothers Inc, Portland OR. They claim the use of "Turtle Timer" from 1935. The first registration was in 1938. Duo-Matic was claimed as of 1946, and "Town and Country" in 1950. The last trademark filing they did was in 1969 ("Blossom Time").
And:
"It's hard to say anything about the watch you've seen...but as far as I know, Rolex never used the term Duomatic. Duomatic is most often seen on watches by Favre Leuba."
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:38 PM on November 18, 2013
"These companies, Abercrombie & Fitch and Zell Brothers, sold Rolex between 1926 and 1930 and 1932 and 1940 respectively."
And this:
"The names "Turtle", "Turtle Timer", "Duo-Matic", and "Town and Country" were all registered trademarks of Zell Brothers Inc, Portland OR. They claim the use of "Turtle Timer" from 1935. The first registration was in 1938. Duo-Matic was claimed as of 1946, and "Town and Country" in 1950. The last trademark filing they did was in 1969 ("Blossom Time").
And:
"It's hard to say anything about the watch you've seen...but as far as I know, Rolex never used the term Duomatic. Duomatic is most often seen on watches by Favre Leuba."
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:38 PM on November 18, 2013
I don't think your information is quite right. What I am getting from the referenced forum posts is that Rolex entered the US Pacific Northwest Market in the 1920s (not the 1960s) through a partnership with Zell Brothers.
By the time your father bought his watch in the 1960s, the only way it could be one of the Rolex/Zell watches is if it were quite antique when he bought it. By the 1960s, Rolex was firmly established as a status symbol timepiece, and I have a hard time believing any Rolex-made watches were sold unbranded at that time. In fact, on my wrist right now is my grandfather's rose gold bezel Rolex Oyster Perpetual Datejust that he purchased in the United States in the early 1950s.
As ndg points out above, all mechanical watches need regular maintenance and periodic overhauls to function properly. These are not expensive (service on my Rolex recently cost something like 400 bucks). So, really, if you want to know about the watch, you should take it to a reputable, licensed watch repair place. They will crack it open and should be able to tell you everything you want to know.
posted by slkinsey at 12:59 PM on November 18, 2013
By the time your father bought his watch in the 1960s, the only way it could be one of the Rolex/Zell watches is if it were quite antique when he bought it. By the 1960s, Rolex was firmly established as a status symbol timepiece, and I have a hard time believing any Rolex-made watches were sold unbranded at that time. In fact, on my wrist right now is my grandfather's rose gold bezel Rolex Oyster Perpetual Datejust that he purchased in the United States in the early 1950s.
As ndg points out above, all mechanical watches need regular maintenance and periodic overhauls to function properly. These are not expensive (service on my Rolex recently cost something like 400 bucks). So, really, if you want to know about the watch, you should take it to a reputable, licensed watch repair place. They will crack it open and should be able to tell you everything you want to know.
posted by slkinsey at 12:59 PM on November 18, 2013
You likely have a watch without a quick-set date. In which case you just need to keep rotating the hands past midnight over and over to advance the date. See here.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:16 PM on November 18, 2013
posted by leotrotsky at 6:16 PM on November 18, 2013
These are not expensive (service on my Rolex recently cost something like 400 bucks)
For the quality of the service (replacing lubricants, repairing stretched bands, etc.) I agree, but it is worth acknowledging that this is considerably more than most folks spend for a watch, let alone a service.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:24 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
For the quality of the service (replacing lubricants, repairing stretched bands, etc.) I agree, but it is worth acknowledging that this is considerably more than most folks spend for a watch, let alone a service.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:24 PM on November 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sorry, I meant to say, "these are not inexpensive." Talk about your typos!
posted by slkinsey at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by slkinsey at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
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