how can I stop someone from using the word "gay" in a derogatory way?
October 3, 2005 3:09 PM
How can I politely ask someone to stop using the word "gay" in a derogatory way? I wish I would have objected to it from the first time that I heard this individual say it, but the person is my new roommate in a new town and I didn't want to anger him/her. Plus the first few times s/he said it, we were around other people in public and I didn't want to scold him/her at the time. S/he says "gay" to mean "stupid" all the time and it offends me. How can I bring it up now, a few weeks into our being roommates, in a way that won't be upsetting to our relationship? If this helps, I have a gay sibling and many gay friends and could use that as part of the explanation. Normally I call people out on this right away but this is a much more complicated relationship, as we have to live together and get along for a year. I don't think that s/he knows that it is offensive, although s/he is nearly 30 years old.
If someone's provincial, you won't fix it by correcting them. You may get him/her to stop using it in front of you. But they'll like you less for it.
Change roommates if you think this is a big deal. Otherwise, resign yourself to the fact that you're living with a hick and remember that the only issue here is your comfort level-- the roommate is not affecting public opinion or the equality struggle in general in any measureable fashion with their choice of adjective.
Really, save you ire for when this roommate starts putting Jeff Gordon collectors plates in shared areas or parking their pickup on the lawn. Because that's coming next.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:26 PM on October 3, 2005
Change roommates if you think this is a big deal. Otherwise, resign yourself to the fact that you're living with a hick and remember that the only issue here is your comfort level-- the roommate is not affecting public opinion or the equality struggle in general in any measureable fashion with their choice of adjective.
Really, save you ire for when this roommate starts putting Jeff Gordon collectors plates in shared areas or parking their pickup on the lawn. Because that's coming next.
posted by Mayor Curley at 3:26 PM on October 3, 2005
Mayor, it wouldn't be Jeff Gordon plates, if that were the case.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:28 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:28 PM on October 3, 2005
...just politely ask them to stop using the word "gay" in a derogatory way! "I've noticed that you've been using the word in the past as a derogatory term, and I would appreciate it if you didn't. I have gay friends and family members, and it's painful to me to hear the word used as a slur."
Unless your roommate is Fred Phelps, they should have no problem accepting this and moving on. I've personally seen the above said by one friend of mine to another, and if put politely, it's quite effective.
posted by apple scruff at 3:31 PM on October 3, 2005
Unless your roommate is Fred Phelps, they should have no problem accepting this and moving on. I've personally seen the above said by one friend of mine to another, and if put politely, it's quite effective.
posted by apple scruff at 3:31 PM on October 3, 2005
This question is so gay.
No, no wait. Call her on it without compunction. Y'know why? Because "gay" doesn't mean stupid. I can understand it in some contexts when used to mean "feminine behavior from a guy," but even that's a stretch.
What I'd do? Ask her about it the next time she says it. Say "Gay how?"
The reason why this should work is that most people say things like that because they're linguistically retarded. They don't have a vocabulary large enough to really express themselves, and they don't think about how they sound. So, if you went after her and said something like "That really offends me, my sibling's gay..." that will more likely lead to her telling her friends "OMG, my new roommate is so gay. He, like, gave me this big lecture and stuff about how I talk."
Instead, by asking her questions, it avoids the appearence of overt conflict while making her examine why she does use gay incorrectly. You've just gotta be all "That doesn't make sense," Socratic.
At the least, she should stop using it around you. At best, she'll realize that it does soundgay stupid to keep using it all the time.
If not, go with the bridge-burning "What are you, fuckin' retarded?" or any bevy of sexual/racial slurs. People usually figure out the rebuke pretty quickly when you say things like "Just like a girl. You know, I mean stupid."
posted by klangklangston at 3:32 PM on October 3, 2005
No, no wait. Call her on it without compunction. Y'know why? Because "gay" doesn't mean stupid. I can understand it in some contexts when used to mean "feminine behavior from a guy," but even that's a stretch.
What I'd do? Ask her about it the next time she says it. Say "Gay how?"
The reason why this should work is that most people say things like that because they're linguistically retarded. They don't have a vocabulary large enough to really express themselves, and they don't think about how they sound. So, if you went after her and said something like "That really offends me, my sibling's gay..." that will more likely lead to her telling her friends "OMG, my new roommate is so gay. He, like, gave me this big lecture and stuff about how I talk."
Instead, by asking her questions, it avoids the appearence of overt conflict while making her examine why she does use gay incorrectly. You've just gotta be all "That doesn't make sense," Socratic.
At the least, she should stop using it around you. At best, she'll realize that it does sound
If not, go with the bridge-burning "What are you, fuckin' retarded?" or any bevy of sexual/racial slurs. People usually figure out the rebuke pretty quickly when you say things like "Just like a girl. You know, I mean stupid."
posted by klangklangston at 3:32 PM on October 3, 2005
"You know, I haven't said anything about it until now, but it really bugs me when you use the word 'gay' to mean 'stupid.' I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't say that around me."
Saying that you have gay friends is optional, and IMO, unnecessary.
posted by ottereroticist at 3:33 PM on October 3, 2005
Saying that you have gay friends is optional, and IMO, unnecessary.
posted by ottereroticist at 3:33 PM on October 3, 2005
"Calling something stupid gay is gay."
or
"In what way is that homosexual?"
Aside from the insensitive overuse of the word, is the roomate open-minded and tolerant and just has a peculiar speech affectation or are they not open-minded and are intolerant of homosexuality?
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:34 PM on October 3, 2005
or
"In what way is that homosexual?"
Aside from the insensitive overuse of the word, is the roomate open-minded and tolerant and just has a peculiar speech affectation or are they not open-minded and are intolerant of homosexuality?
posted by PurplePorpoise at 3:34 PM on October 3, 2005
Ah, roommates suuuck. Options:
1. Confront this person, since your influence in their life is important, we theoretically learn from each other, but also create tension between you since I wouldn't think that I'd have to change just b/c my roommate asked me to, and now this person has to watch their mouth around you, like you're their parent.
2. Let it go, try to accept this as a learning experience, maybe once you become friends it can come up in a casual way and since you guys are now hombros, your roommate will not want to be such an ass.
I think you guys are in the first throes of roommateship and it's important to use this time to create the kind of environment you want to live in. Meaning trust and civility, even friendship. I think option 2 is the way to go.
posted by scazza at 3:36 PM on October 3, 2005
1. Confront this person, since your influence in their life is important, we theoretically learn from each other, but also create tension between you since I wouldn't think that I'd have to change just b/c my roommate asked me to, and now this person has to watch their mouth around you, like you're their parent.
2. Let it go, try to accept this as a learning experience, maybe once you become friends it can come up in a casual way and since you guys are now hombros, your roommate will not want to be such an ass.
I think you guys are in the first throes of roommateship and it's important to use this time to create the kind of environment you want to live in. Meaning trust and civility, even friendship. I think option 2 is the way to go.
posted by scazza at 3:36 PM on October 3, 2005
I like apple scruff's formulation, but I'd change it a bit to "Could you stop using 'gay' that way around me? It makes me uncomfortable" or something similar. It might avoid a raging argument about PC nonsense if you frame it as a situational thing (not in front of me) rather than a potential "Change your entire way of speaking, you ignorant hick" thing.
posted by occhiblu at 3:41 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by occhiblu at 3:41 PM on October 3, 2005
"Susie, I just hate it when you use the word gay that way. To me, it is just like hearing you say "nigger" or "kike." I have gay friends and family and I can't be friends with aomeone who talks that way."
Your roomate may not be a homophobe, just ignorant, in which case you are doing her a huge favor by speaking up.
posted by LarryC at 3:44 PM on October 3, 2005
Your roomate may not be a homophobe, just ignorant, in which case you are doing her a huge favor by speaking up.
posted by LarryC at 3:44 PM on October 3, 2005
And, as others have said, I'd try to avoid getting into an argument about whether people should be allowed to use the word that way, or whether your having gay friends means you get more say in it than she does, blah di blah blah. Just say you find it rude, or uncomfortable, and ask that she not do it around you, and leave it at that.
It's a reasonable request, so don't hem and haw and explain and qualify and turn it into a huge debate, because you'll just water down the request.
posted by occhiblu at 3:46 PM on October 3, 2005
It's a reasonable request, so don't hem and haw and explain and qualify and turn it into a huge debate, because you'll just water down the request.
posted by occhiblu at 3:46 PM on October 3, 2005
Yeah, the way to go is to ask them in what way it is "gay"? How is that professor's grading policy "gay"?! How can a grading policy be "gay"? How can anything other than an adult male carbon based lifeform be gay? Just call them on the intrinsic absurdity of it's incorrect usage. If they really are a homophobe, point out they are really watering down it's power to offend by overusing it.
posted by phrontist at 3:55 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by phrontist at 3:55 PM on October 3, 2005
Personally I'd probably tease her about it to make my point. "What are you, a homophobe?" said jokingly will get the point across without sounding didactic or giving her anything to tease you about in return.
posted by cali at 3:55 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by cali at 3:55 PM on October 3, 2005
I don't think that s/he knows that it is offensive, although s/he is nearly 30 years old.
Do you? I don't think it is. It's just a word, and actually fits nicely into sentences in a way other words don't. It in no way implies a hatred for homosexuals. You're projecting that. Get over it.
posted by cillit bang at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2005
Do you? I don't think it is. It's just a word, and actually fits nicely into sentences in a way other words don't. It in no way implies a hatred for homosexuals. You're projecting that. Get over it.
posted by cillit bang at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2005
I had the bad habit of over- and mis-using the word "retarded." A friend who actually has a retarded brother told me she didn't appreciate it and said "please don't say that" every time I slipped. It was a little annoying, but I didn't like her any less because I knew where she was coming from and I knew I was wrong.
As a kid, we used both "gay" and "jewish" as euphemisms for stupid. We were stupid. When I hear a 30-year old say something is "gay", I just think - grow up! Maybe your roommate will graduate to grody, rad, phat, and sick.
posted by clh at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2005
As a kid, we used both "gay" and "jewish" as euphemisms for stupid. We were stupid. When I hear a 30-year old say something is "gay", I just think - grow up! Maybe your roommate will graduate to grody, rad, phat, and sick.
posted by clh at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2005
The first time I chastized someone for doing it, they stoppped.
It seems a lot of such things happened because people don't know any better.
posted by philida at 4:02 PM on October 3, 2005
It seems a lot of such things happened because people don't know any better.
posted by philida at 4:02 PM on October 3, 2005
How hetero!
But seriously, start using "straight" or "hetero" when you're around her to mean "That's stupid". Or if she says "That's so gay" you could say "Well, actually, it seems a little heterosexual, if you know what I mean."
The chair breaks and she deems it gay? "Sorry to break it to you, but that chair? And that one over there? I don't like to gossip, but the broken one is a boy, and that one's a girl, and, well, you know how it is. With those straight chairs."
Watching a reality TV show and she deems it stupid? "Aren't most of the producers married? Like, legally? So that would make this a straight show. Damn heteros!"
Bush's fiscal policy drives her up the wall? "Gay? I dunno. Bush seems fairly breedertastic to me. Fucking breeders!"
Etc etc. It doesn't have to make sense--after all, it's not like hers do.
posted by Anonymous at 4:03 PM on October 3, 2005
But seriously, start using "straight" or "hetero" when you're around her to mean "That's stupid". Or if she says "That's so gay" you could say "Well, actually, it seems a little heterosexual, if you know what I mean."
The chair breaks and she deems it gay? "Sorry to break it to you, but that chair? And that one over there? I don't like to gossip, but the broken one is a boy, and that one's a girl, and, well, you know how it is. With those straight chairs."
Watching a reality TV show and she deems it stupid? "Aren't most of the producers married? Like, legally? So that would make this a straight show. Damn heteros!"
Bush's fiscal policy drives her up the wall? "Gay? I dunno. Bush seems fairly breedertastic to me. Fucking breeders!"
Etc etc. It doesn't have to make sense--after all, it's not like hers do.
posted by Anonymous at 4:03 PM on October 3, 2005
I once got a jewish friend of mine, (a former frat boy) to stop describing things as gay by pointing out it was no different than me saying "That's so jewish." It cured him, at least in front of me.
Of course, he was the same guy who got mad if you called fraternities "frats"...(He always said, "you don't call your country a c*nt, so don't call a fraternity a frat.") That just seemed silly to me, so happily breaking the do unto others rule, I cured him of his habit, but still call the greek system guys frat boys to this day.
posted by Futurehouse at 4:23 PM on October 3, 2005
Of course, he was the same guy who got mad if you called fraternities "frats"...(He always said, "you don't call your country a c*nt, so don't call a fraternity a frat.") That just seemed silly to me, so happily breaking the do unto others rule, I cured him of his habit, but still call the greek system guys frat boys to this day.
posted by Futurehouse at 4:23 PM on October 3, 2005
Everytime they say something is gay, make a point to meander into a twenty minute monologue on the changing nature of the word gay. Quote chaucer. Sppend 10 minutes on the gay rights movement. Bore your room mate into submission.
posted by seanyboy at 4:30 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by seanyboy at 4:30 PM on October 3, 2005
I would call her on it -- I know I couldn't stand to live with a roommate without at least trying to address the problem. Be prepared for her to react defensively, but don't engage her in an argument. She'll probably be embarrassed about it, so just let it drop after you tell her sincerely how your feel. The point isn't to win an argument about semantics or politeness, but to tell her how you feel.
And think of it this way --you're doing her a favor by telling her. If she uses language like that in the workplace, it might be seen as unsophisticated at best, discriminatory at worst. (However, I would NOT tell her "you sound unsophisticated when you say that" -- keep the focus on your own feelings rather than criticizing her.)
posted by footnote at 4:48 PM on October 3, 2005
And think of it this way --you're doing her a favor by telling her. If she uses language like that in the workplace, it might be seen as unsophisticated at best, discriminatory at worst. (However, I would NOT tell her "you sound unsophisticated when you say that" -- keep the focus on your own feelings rather than criticizing her.)
posted by footnote at 4:48 PM on October 3, 2005
I always just say, "Can we please not use "gay" as a derogatory?" and it stops- at least around me. If it works on Everquest (seriously!) it will surely work in the real world.
posted by headspace at 4:54 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by headspace at 4:54 PM on October 3, 2005
IMHO, in this contest, this is one of those macguffin words (i.e. it doesn't mean anything other than filling a place in a sentence), previously filled by other un-PC words like 'retarded'. The people using it honestly don't connect it with the homosexual thing. It seems to have started being the macguffin recently (conspiracy theories abound) and I'd expect it to be replaced with another word in a few months.
Have you asked your gay friends if they care? Most of mine dont care much, especially since those using the word dont tend to be the same people beating up 15 year old closet cases.
posted by softlord at 5:30 PM on October 3, 2005
Have you asked your gay friends if they care? Most of mine dont care much, especially since those using the word dont tend to be the same people beating up 15 year old closet cases.
posted by softlord at 5:30 PM on October 3, 2005
Do you know that she's a phobe, for sure? Or is just a habit or something from a different circle than yours? I'll say it, but for the record, it's spelled gheay and must be said in the most 7th-grader voice you can summon. Probably 40% of my friends are gay, and some of them say "gheay," too. I don't say it outside of a very tight circle, though, 'cause I'm not a retard or anything. :P
posted by mimi at 5:32 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by mimi at 5:32 PM on October 3, 2005
Maybe you could quietly ask if she's aware that some people find the term really offensive. It's amazing how some people can live for years without ever realizing that a word they use is loaded.
For example, I once worked with a guy fresh out of university who came from a very whitebread environment. He moved to Vancouver and suddenly needed to interact with people from a wide mosaic. He worked with me and constantly used racist and sexist terms. He seemed to have no clue about the weight of his words. Most of our co-workers ignored him, because they knew he wasn't a "fit" for the firm and that his contract would not be extended. But I had to work with him day in, day out. When he used a racist, sexist or homophobic term, I'd quietly let him know that, in Vancouver, people found this term very offensive. He was often surprised.
One day, we were out for lunch with our supervisor (a Japanese fellow) and another co-worker (from India). We were eating hamburgers. Our supervisor and the other co-worker kept their burgers partially wrapped, so that they didn't drip all over the place. The newbie turned to our supervisor and said, "So...do all you Japs eat burgers like that?"
Silence. The three of us were stunned. "What did you say?" asked my supervisor. "I asked if all you Japs eat like that," said the newbie. My supervisor then calmly explained that the term was offensive and outlined the origins of the term. The newbie was stunned. To him, "Jap" was simply a short-hand term.
He did improve somewhat over time, but the sheer volume of racist comments was too much. So his contract wasn't renewed. Last I heard, he was working in China. I imagine he eventually learned to adjust his language. I'm not sure he was racist, per se...just very naive.
posted by acoutu at 6:09 PM on October 3, 2005
For example, I once worked with a guy fresh out of university who came from a very whitebread environment. He moved to Vancouver and suddenly needed to interact with people from a wide mosaic. He worked with me and constantly used racist and sexist terms. He seemed to have no clue about the weight of his words. Most of our co-workers ignored him, because they knew he wasn't a "fit" for the firm and that his contract would not be extended. But I had to work with him day in, day out. When he used a racist, sexist or homophobic term, I'd quietly let him know that, in Vancouver, people found this term very offensive. He was often surprised.
One day, we were out for lunch with our supervisor (a Japanese fellow) and another co-worker (from India). We were eating hamburgers. Our supervisor and the other co-worker kept their burgers partially wrapped, so that they didn't drip all over the place. The newbie turned to our supervisor and said, "So...do all you Japs eat burgers like that?"
Silence. The three of us were stunned. "What did you say?" asked my supervisor. "I asked if all you Japs eat like that," said the newbie. My supervisor then calmly explained that the term was offensive and outlined the origins of the term. The newbie was stunned. To him, "Jap" was simply a short-hand term.
He did improve somewhat over time, but the sheer volume of racist comments was too much. So his contract wasn't renewed. Last I heard, he was working in China. I imagine he eventually learned to adjust his language. I'm not sure he was racist, per se...just very naive.
posted by acoutu at 6:09 PM on October 3, 2005
I second mimi, "ghey" sounds like "gay" when spoken, and while it probably has roots in the word "gay", to a lot (if not most) people that use it, there is no connection with homosexuality, the words are seperate and not interchangeable. This is most likely the reason s/he doesn't realise it's offensive - it isn't, assuming the listener also knows the slang that is.
Since it bugs you, bring it up, but be prepared in advance for the possibility that your objection might not be taken as seriously as you like, on the grounds that from their point of view, your complaint stems from your own misinterpretation of modern slang/lingo, rather than from any actual bigotry or disagreeable trait on their part.
Pointing out that you're not the only one who might misunderstand and think less of them, and that normally people will not mention that they think less of then or why, but they will act on it - that in that sense it's a risky word to throw around, that might help.
But I would also suggest you at least consider being less offended. For the people I know who say "ghey", neither the words nor the concept are interchangeable with "gay".
posted by -harlequin- at 6:50 PM on October 3, 2005
Since it bugs you, bring it up, but be prepared in advance for the possibility that your objection might not be taken as seriously as you like, on the grounds that from their point of view, your complaint stems from your own misinterpretation of modern slang/lingo, rather than from any actual bigotry or disagreeable trait on their part.
Pointing out that you're not the only one who might misunderstand and think less of them, and that normally people will not mention that they think less of then or why, but they will act on it - that in that sense it's a risky word to throw around, that might help.
But I would also suggest you at least consider being less offended. For the people I know who say "ghey", neither the words nor the concept are interchangeable with "gay".
posted by -harlequin- at 6:50 PM on October 3, 2005
Mayor Curley: If someone's provincial, you won't fix it by correcting them. ...
Really, save you ire for when this roommate starts putting Jeff Gordon collectors plates in shared areas or parking their pickup on the lawn. Because that's coming next.
...
Wait, what?
So we're agreed that "gay" doesn't mean "stupid," since when does "provincial" mean "homophobic?" Last time I checked, classism isn't cool.
Also, substitute "skullcaps" or "dreidels" or "Manishevitz" in that second sentence. You'll see what I'm talking about.
/feels intense fardo for you.
posted by electric_counterpoint at 7:03 PM on October 3, 2005
Really, save you ire for when this roommate starts putting Jeff Gordon collectors plates in shared areas or parking their pickup on the lawn. Because that's coming next.
...
Wait, what?
So we're agreed that "gay" doesn't mean "stupid," since when does "provincial" mean "homophobic?" Last time I checked, classism isn't cool.
Also, substitute "skullcaps" or "dreidels" or "Manishevitz" in that second sentence. You'll see what I'm talking about.
/feels intense fardo for you.
posted by electric_counterpoint at 7:03 PM on October 3, 2005
How about "that makes you sound like Cartman"? That's who using "gay" in that sense reminds me of, anyway.
posted by zadcat at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by zadcat at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2005
Just to second electric_counterpoint... the people who I've met who use gay in a derogatory sense have been by a majority URBAN.
Otherwise, I think everyone has mainly been making good suggestions on how to fix the issue.
posted by Atreides at 7:40 PM on October 3, 2005
Otherwise, I think everyone has mainly been making good suggestions on how to fix the issue.
posted by Atreides at 7:40 PM on October 3, 2005
I don't use the word gay that way because I know it offends people, but I don't think it's offensive.
Why not? Because calling something gay (as in stupid) has nothing to do with gay (as in homosexual). I see it as just two different meanings of the same word. Is there some reason to think (seriously, I'm asking) that there's an etymolotical relationship between the two meanings?
I've never associated the two meanings because "gay" as in stupid has existed in my brain as long as I can remember (I knew it in kindergarten. I'm 29.). It was there long before "gay" as in homosexual, and when I learned that "gay" could also mean homosexual it never occurred to me that there was any sort of relationship between the two meanings of the word. Saying "how is that homosexual?" makes about as much sense as saying "how is that happy?". Lots of words have two different and unrelated meanings.
(Again, I have no idea what the etymology of the meanings is, and maybe they were formed in relation to one another. I'm just saying that I learned the words independently and never considered them related. The same may be true of your friend.)
Just tell her that using the word that way can offend people and she should make an effort to stop. Unless you have some other evidence that she's homophobic, I wouldn't assume that she is.
posted by duck at 8:57 PM on October 3, 2005
Why not? Because calling something gay (as in stupid) has nothing to do with gay (as in homosexual). I see it as just two different meanings of the same word. Is there some reason to think (seriously, I'm asking) that there's an etymolotical relationship between the two meanings?
I've never associated the two meanings because "gay" as in stupid has existed in my brain as long as I can remember (I knew it in kindergarten. I'm 29.). It was there long before "gay" as in homosexual, and when I learned that "gay" could also mean homosexual it never occurred to me that there was any sort of relationship between the two meanings of the word. Saying "how is that homosexual?" makes about as much sense as saying "how is that happy?". Lots of words have two different and unrelated meanings.
(Again, I have no idea what the etymology of the meanings is, and maybe they were formed in relation to one another. I'm just saying that I learned the words independently and never considered them related. The same may be true of your friend.)
Just tell her that using the word that way can offend people and she should make an effort to stop. Unless you have some other evidence that she's homophobic, I wouldn't assume that she is.
posted by duck at 8:57 PM on October 3, 2005
I'd say something like: "I know you don't mean to degrade gay people every time you say this, but it comes across to me as really discriminatory and I wonder if you would mind not using it around me in that sense?"
I couldn't agree more with you, but this is one of those grey areas where the other person will probably get offended if you make it sound like you're accusing them of being a gay basher when that isn't what they mean at all.
In the most clinical, linguistic sense I could make the argument that the word has two distinct meanings that aren't absolutely, necessarily linked. I won't. But bear in mind that this is a technically valid point that your roommate might throw at you. "I don't mean it in that way at all," and perhaps he doesn't.
This usage should still be challenged and phased out. It's no good.
posted by scarabic at 9:02 PM on October 3, 2005
I couldn't agree more with you, but this is one of those grey areas where the other person will probably get offended if you make it sound like you're accusing them of being a gay basher when that isn't what they mean at all.
In the most clinical, linguistic sense I could make the argument that the word has two distinct meanings that aren't absolutely, necessarily linked. I won't. But bear in mind that this is a technically valid point that your roommate might throw at you. "I don't mean it in that way at all," and perhaps he doesn't.
This usage should still be challenged and phased out. It's no good.
posted by scarabic at 9:02 PM on October 3, 2005
"To try and argue that the roommate is using the word incorrectly will only be met with long tirades about how the word also means "stupid" nowadays. And it does."
Fuck that.
"Oh look, I'm a mincing descriptivist. Look at me, my nigga! Nothing's offensive, I'm just being post-modern!"
First off, and I repeat myself, don't argue. Question. You're just not clear on why someone would use that word to mean stupid.
Second off, on the "gheay" bullshit, that's a back construction meant to deflect criticism. And to Duck, how is it homophobic to associate the common term for homosexuality with "stupid"? If you can't see that one, you're fucking retarded.
("But wait, how come when you describe someone as a retard when they're not, to pejorative effect, that's considered offensive? I just don't get it.")
posted by klangklangston at 9:20 PM on October 3, 2005
Fuck that.
"Oh look, I'm a mincing descriptivist. Look at me, my nigga! Nothing's offensive, I'm just being post-modern!"
First off, and I repeat myself, don't argue. Question. You're just not clear on why someone would use that word to mean stupid.
Second off, on the "gheay" bullshit, that's a back construction meant to deflect criticism. And to Duck, how is it homophobic to associate the common term for homosexuality with "stupid"? If you can't see that one, you're fucking retarded.
("But wait, how come when you describe someone as a retard when they're not, to pejorative effect, that's considered offensive? I just don't get it.")
posted by klangklangston at 9:20 PM on October 3, 2005
ISTM that taking offence when people use "gay" to mean "stupid" on the grounds that it really means "homosexual" is about as pointless as taking offence when people use "gay" to mean "homosexual" on the grounds that it really means "light-hearted". English evolves. Live with it.
posted by flabdablet at 9:45 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by flabdablet at 9:45 PM on October 3, 2005
Put me down as a gay man who bristles every time he hears folks say, "Uh, that's SOOOO gay!" I think it's very similar to the misuse of "retarded".
posted by Bear at 11:29 PM on October 3, 2005
posted by Bear at 11:29 PM on October 3, 2005
In my sensitive opinion (since I'm Queer), the gay-as-stupid thing is intended to diminish queer folk. Just like mentioning Sadam and 9-11 repeatedly at the same time.
If Cartman started it, then perhaps this was intended to look stupid. It caught on because it was shocking to some folks, and the adolescents like to be shocking.
Arguing that, today gay means stupid, is like saying its okay to use 'nigger' because, after all, whites can be niggers too. Doesn't make it any less offensive, its still just a bunch of fecal material emanating from the speaker's mouth.
posted by Goofyy at 11:34 PM on October 3, 2005
If Cartman started it, then perhaps this was intended to look stupid. It caught on because it was shocking to some folks, and the adolescents like to be shocking.
Arguing that, today gay means stupid, is like saying its okay to use 'nigger' because, after all, whites can be niggers too. Doesn't make it any less offensive, its still just a bunch of fecal material emanating from the speaker's mouth.
posted by Goofyy at 11:34 PM on October 3, 2005
If Cartman started it
Cartman didn't start it. It's been around forever.
And to Duck, how is it homophobic to associate the common term for homosexuality with "stupid"? If you can't see that one, you're fucking retarded.
Well you see, when I was four, I didn't know that the word "gay" could be used to mean homosexual. (Perhaps I was retarded?) However, the word gay was often used to mean stupid. Therefore, I learned that the meaning of "gay" was stupid. This is the same process I used to learn the meaning of words like "apple" and "sunny" and "bowling". I used the word "gay" to mean "stupid" much the same way I used the word "stupid" to mean "stupid". No homophobic meaning was intended and I don't think any of the kids around me intended anything homophobic either.
At some later point, I learned that "gay" could also mean "homosexual" and it could also mean "happy". I did not then jumble these up and think "Ah, that's because homosexual people are stupid and happy." I just figured they were different meanings for the same word. Kind of like "set" can mean "ready" or "a backdrop for a play" or "to fall below the horizon" or "to arrange hair in curlers".
Not being retarded, I was aware that words often have multiple meanings and often these meanings have nothing to do with one another. I could say the sun "set" without any implications about backdrops for plays and without believing that the sun liked to wear it's hair in curls. I dropped "gay" into this category: A word that could mean "stupid" or "homosexual" or "happy", even though those three meanings are not related to one another.
At some point when I was in high school (long before Cartman came along), I found out that the use of the word "gay" to mean "stupid" offended people. These people did not grow up with the "stupid" meaning for "gay" and thought that I meant that "homosexual" implied "stupid". Well I don't want people to think that I think "homosexual" implies "stupid" so I don't use the word that way anymore.
And that is how it's not homophobic to use the same word to mean "stupid" and "homosexual". Do you think that using the word "gay" to mean "homosexual" implies that gay people are "happy"?
posted by duck at 5:29 AM on October 4, 2005
Cartman didn't start it. It's been around forever.
And to Duck, how is it homophobic to associate the common term for homosexuality with "stupid"? If you can't see that one, you're fucking retarded.
Well you see, when I was four, I didn't know that the word "gay" could be used to mean homosexual. (Perhaps I was retarded?) However, the word gay was often used to mean stupid. Therefore, I learned that the meaning of "gay" was stupid. This is the same process I used to learn the meaning of words like "apple" and "sunny" and "bowling". I used the word "gay" to mean "stupid" much the same way I used the word "stupid" to mean "stupid". No homophobic meaning was intended and I don't think any of the kids around me intended anything homophobic either.
At some later point, I learned that "gay" could also mean "homosexual" and it could also mean "happy". I did not then jumble these up and think "Ah, that's because homosexual people are stupid and happy." I just figured they were different meanings for the same word. Kind of like "set" can mean "ready" or "a backdrop for a play" or "to fall below the horizon" or "to arrange hair in curlers".
Not being retarded, I was aware that words often have multiple meanings and often these meanings have nothing to do with one another. I could say the sun "set" without any implications about backdrops for plays and without believing that the sun liked to wear it's hair in curls. I dropped "gay" into this category: A word that could mean "stupid" or "homosexual" or "happy", even though those three meanings are not related to one another.
At some point when I was in high school (long before Cartman came along), I found out that the use of the word "gay" to mean "stupid" offended people. These people did not grow up with the "stupid" meaning for "gay" and thought that I meant that "homosexual" implied "stupid". Well I don't want people to think that I think "homosexual" implies "stupid" so I don't use the word that way anymore.
And that is how it's not homophobic to use the same word to mean "stupid" and "homosexual". Do you think that using the word "gay" to mean "homosexual" implies that gay people are "happy"?
posted by duck at 5:29 AM on October 4, 2005
I'm a lesbian and find the current use of "gay" to mean "stupid" very offensive. Tone of voice and context make it very obvious that those who do that don't mean "happy" or "homosexual."
Sit down with your roommate and tell her you wish she wouldn't do that. When she asks why, tell her about your gay sibling and friends. Do not lower yourself to her level by calling dumb stuff "straight."
posted by Carol Anne at 5:37 AM on October 4, 2005
Sit down with your roommate and tell her you wish she wouldn't do that. When she asks why, tell her about your gay sibling and friends. Do not lower yourself to her level by calling dumb stuff "straight."
posted by Carol Anne at 5:37 AM on October 4, 2005
Do not lower yourself to her level by calling dumb stuff "straight."
And so by the same token, you yourself should refrain from calling stupid stuff "dumb". It is rather offensive to dumb people, who of course lack the voice for themselves to speak out against this injustice.
posted by dydecker at 5:44 AM on October 4, 2005
And so by the same token, you yourself should refrain from calling stupid stuff "dumb". It is rather offensive to dumb people, who of course lack the voice for themselves to speak out against this injustice.
posted by dydecker at 5:44 AM on October 4, 2005
You're right, dydecker, I wasn't thinking when I used the word "dumb" to mean stupid stuff. I apologize for that.
posted by Carol Anne at 6:18 AM on October 4, 2005
posted by Carol Anne at 6:18 AM on October 4, 2005
When you ask someone to stop behaving in a way that offends you, it's generally not the raw request that makes them angry. They assume a meta-message of "You're a bad person for doing that" or "I'm a better person than you because I don't do that." Most people's pride will bristle if they are knocked into a one-down position. This is a knee-jerk reaction ("You think you're BETTER than me?"). I suspect it's close to involuntary in many people. (It happens here all the time. See Metatalk.) So if you're serious about stopping the behavior with a minimum of discord, you should strive to subdue meta-messages.
One way to do this is to voluntarily take the one-down position. Say something like, "Betty, I need to talk to you about something, but I'm really scared to bring it up. I'm scared you'll hate me." From your post, it sounds like this is true, so you don't need to feel like you're playing politics when you say this. After the discussion, you might also say, "I'm sure there are things I do that really get on your nerves. If there are, please tell me about them."
In other words, if you're going to attack someone, make yourself vulnerable too. You'll just make them defensive if you go at them when they're naked and you're wearing full-body armor.
Generally, people reject this sort of advice. They say things like, "No! The roommate's behavior is WRONG. Anon shouldn't have to belittle herself to make her point." Fair enough. But please note that I'm talking about utility -- not ethics.
posted by grumblebee at 7:03 AM on October 4, 2005
One way to do this is to voluntarily take the one-down position. Say something like, "Betty, I need to talk to you about something, but I'm really scared to bring it up. I'm scared you'll hate me." From your post, it sounds like this is true, so you don't need to feel like you're playing politics when you say this. After the discussion, you might also say, "I'm sure there are things I do that really get on your nerves. If there are, please tell me about them."
In other words, if you're going to attack someone, make yourself vulnerable too. You'll just make them defensive if you go at them when they're naked and you're wearing full-body armor.
Generally, people reject this sort of advice. They say things like, "No! The roommate's behavior is WRONG. Anon shouldn't have to belittle herself to make her point." Fair enough. But please note that I'm talking about utility -- not ethics.
posted by grumblebee at 7:03 AM on October 4, 2005
I think a lot of these responses are total overkill. I had a roommate who used "gay" in that way. I didn't like it, and after a few days she made some proclimation that some TV dinner or something was "SO gay!" and looked to me for affirmation. I had an incredulous look on my face, my eyebrows were probably raised. I didn't say anything, and a moment later she apologized "I know I shouldn't say gay that way, it's just all of my friends started saying it all the time as a joke and now it just pops out.... but I'm gonna stop." The end.
posted by bonheur at 7:14 AM on October 4, 2005
posted by bonheur at 7:14 AM on October 4, 2005
"Gay means stupid now."
Bullshit. "Gay" can mean "bad" through association with the idea that homosexuality is bad. Gay means stupid the way that imply means infer— only when it's used incorrectly. If you didn't know you were wrong, consider yourself informed.
posted by klangklangston at 8:59 AM on October 4, 2005
Bullshit. "Gay" can mean "bad" through association with the idea that homosexuality is bad. Gay means stupid the way that imply means infer— only when it's used incorrectly. If you didn't know you were wrong, consider yourself informed.
posted by klangklangston at 8:59 AM on October 4, 2005
How about: "I know you don't mean anything bad by it, but I have a sibling and friends who are gay, and it's a put-down, just today's version of calling someone a "nigger"." I'm old enough to remember when many decent people simply used the word "nigger" when referring to people they thought of as stupid or cheap. "Don't be a nigger." It was wrong then, just as it's wrong now. But many who used it never thought of themselves as prejudiced, or of the term as bad: it was just how they were raised. To them it was an appropriate thing to say, and they didn't take the time to think that they weren't just implying that the person it was directed to was stupid or cheap, but that a whole group of people was. I think of the line from "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner": "Prejudice is sometimes mean, sometimes just stupid, but always wrong." Every time someone uses "gay" as a put down, it legitimizes the idea that actually to be gay is bad. If you can get your roommate to think about it that way, you've done something good. And mentioning your siblings and friends lets your roommate a bit off the hook by emphasizing that you wouldn't think of suggesting he or she is trying to be mean; rather you bring it up because of a heightened sensitivity you may have. Good luck. And, by the way, I think it's great that you are concerned about the problem...another example of where being "politically correct" is not a bad thing, but simply a way of trying to make it through life doing others less harm.
posted by rabbus at 9:11 AM on October 4, 2005
posted by rabbus at 9:11 AM on October 4, 2005
Grrrrr... NOW I'm bristling.
"Alot" doesn't mean "a lot". It's not even a word. Writing "alot" is so
posted by flabdablet at 9:19 AM on October 4, 2005
"Alot" doesn't mean "a lot". It's not even a word. Writing "alot" is so
posted by flabdablet at 9:19 AM on October 4, 2005
I'm more or less with 23skidoo on this. If you take the righteous "Oh, I don't understand why you'd call that 'gay' " tack you'll just make yourself look disingenuous at best or an out-of-touch dimwit at worst. It's just a sad fact of life that the kidz have decided to use "gay" to mean "naff" or "uncool" (and I do think they mean something closer to that rather than 'stupid'). And you can be damned sure that many of those who do it take great delight in knowing it pisses some people off. That's often a big part of what makes such slang fun for the young 'uns. Come on. You remember.
This isn't to say it's a good thing, of course, but I do think that any attempt to challenge it directly is unlikely to achieve much beyond making your roommate think you're a bit of a stiff. You may not mind that, in which case good for you; go for it. But do be aware that this will likely be the end result.
Personally I don't think it's worth getting too exercised about these things. I've seen so many come and go and at the end of the day they usually end up being subverted into irony - and that tends to kill them off with the kids who are trying to use them to be offensive.
Retard, spacker, spazz, mong, girly, queer, gay.... it's just standard slang tidal flow and there's little sense in being a Canute about it. I find that if one of these words particularly bugs you you can make the point best via humorous subversion and inversion rather than beating a drum about it. The tide will go out of its own accord when its ready. Calling things "gay" will be out of fashion soon enough. Then the kidz will probably move onto calling things totally MeFi or something.
posted by Decani at 9:24 AM on October 4, 2005
This isn't to say it's a good thing, of course, but I do think that any attempt to challenge it directly is unlikely to achieve much beyond making your roommate think you're a bit of a stiff. You may not mind that, in which case good for you; go for it. But do be aware that this will likely be the end result.
Personally I don't think it's worth getting too exercised about these things. I've seen so many come and go and at the end of the day they usually end up being subverted into irony - and that tends to kill them off with the kids who are trying to use them to be offensive.
Retard, spacker, spazz, mong, girly, queer, gay.... it's just standard slang tidal flow and there's little sense in being a Canute about it. I find that if one of these words particularly bugs you you can make the point best via humorous subversion and inversion rather than beating a drum about it. The tide will go out of its own accord when its ready. Calling things "gay" will be out of fashion soon enough. Then the kidz will probably move onto calling things totally MeFi or something.
posted by Decani at 9:24 AM on October 4, 2005
Bullshit. "Gay" can mean "bad" through association with the idea that homosexuality is bad. Gay means stupid the way that imply means infer— only when it's used incorrectly. If you didn't know you were wrong, consider yourself informed.
No, you're wrong.
posted by cillit bang at 9:36 AM on October 4, 2005
No, you're wrong.
posted by cillit bang at 9:36 AM on October 4, 2005
Most people, unfortunately, know very well that 'gay' has two meanings, and are very aware of both. They may not understand that what they are saying is offensive, but usually, at least in my experience, they understand that they're making fun of homosexuals in a backhanded way.
I broke a couple fraternity brothers of the habit by saying "NO YOUR HELLA GAY" in an obnoxiously loud voice whenever they used the word.
Turns out that when people have it turned back on them, the 'homosexual' meaning comes through very clearly. They got it and stopped.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 9:40 AM on October 4, 2005
I broke a couple fraternity brothers of the habit by saying "NO YOUR HELLA GAY" in an obnoxiously loud voice whenever they used the word.
Turns out that when people have it turned back on them, the 'homosexual' meaning comes through very clearly. They got it and stopped.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 9:40 AM on October 4, 2005
This guy I know runs a website and often deletes inappropriate posts by calling them 'lame'.
I think he means useless or uninteresting. I would ask him to be a little more exact, cos I think it is derogatory to the disabled, but the word is so widespread in that meaning that it would be pointless.
Eventually, the word lame won't mean 'disabled' it will mean useless. It may be a long time coming, and may cause lots of offence in the meantime, but hey! that's what you get with an evolving language.
Eventually, a new word will be adopted or invented to mean what lame used to mean. Then we can stop being offended.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:02 AM on October 4, 2005
I think he means useless or uninteresting. I would ask him to be a little more exact, cos I think it is derogatory to the disabled, but the word is so widespread in that meaning that it would be pointless.
Eventually, the word lame won't mean 'disabled' it will mean useless. It may be a long time coming, and may cause lots of offence in the meantime, but hey! that's what you get with an evolving language.
Eventually, a new word will be adopted or invented to mean what lame used to mean. Then we can stop being offended.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:02 AM on October 4, 2005
klangklangston:
You are mistaken. Claiming that it is "incorrect" to use slang the way it is commonly used and understood, is a losing game - that's half the point of slang. In slang vs huffing and puffing, slang normally wins. It seems to get better results to acknowledge that neither offense nor slur is meant, but let them know that that is how it will be (mis)interpreted. Judging by firsthand accounts in this thread, this approach works. Telling kids that cool means a low temperature and any other use is "incorrect", isn't useful advice IMO.
posted by -harlequin- at 10:49 AM on October 4, 2005
You are mistaken. Claiming that it is "incorrect" to use slang the way it is commonly used and understood, is a losing game - that's half the point of slang. In slang vs huffing and puffing, slang normally wins. It seems to get better results to acknowledge that neither offense nor slur is meant, but let them know that that is how it will be (mis)interpreted. Judging by firsthand accounts in this thread, this approach works. Telling kids that cool means a low temperature and any other use is "incorrect", isn't useful advice IMO.
posted by -harlequin- at 10:49 AM on October 4, 2005
"Telling kids that cool means a low temperature and any other use is "incorrect", isn't useful advice IMO."
This isn't a kid; she's near 30. And using "gay" to mean "dumb" is lazy.
She's old enough to know better, and being questioned about it will make her see that. Don't be such a nigger about it.
posted by klangklangston at 11:49 AM on October 4, 2005
This isn't a kid; she's near 30. And using "gay" to mean "dumb" is lazy.
She's old enough to know better, and being questioned about it will make her see that. Don't be such a nigger about it.
posted by klangklangston at 11:49 AM on October 4, 2005
Questioned about it will help, yes, pretending she's using the slang incorrectly, won't. Because, among other reasons, she isn't.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2005
posted by -harlequin- at 12:00 PM on October 4, 2005
I've never thought of the word gay as meaning stupid when used in that way. I always thought it meant something more akin to "silly". Silly in the way gay men are sometimes portrayed as hyper-effimenate buffons on TV or in the movies.
posted by Carbolic at 1:17 PM on October 4, 2005
posted by Carbolic at 1:17 PM on October 4, 2005
The point is not that it's "wrong" -- it's that it's offensive. Right vs. wrong is unwinnable. Plus, making her wrong is likely to provoke defensiveness.
If, as so many assert, she may not even connect the two meanings, you might try opening with "You may not have thought about this, but..."
Personally, I find that kind of thoughtlessness hard to credit; but whether or not it applies, it gives her a way to save face.
posted by ottereroticist at 5:21 PM on October 4, 2005
If, as so many assert, she may not even connect the two meanings, you might try opening with "You may not have thought about this, but..."
Personally, I find that kind of thoughtlessness hard to credit; but whether or not it applies, it gives her a way to save face.
posted by ottereroticist at 5:21 PM on October 4, 2005
Simmer down.
I just saw Antony & the Johnsons last night, and Antony totally used "gay" meaning stupid. Not a big deal, you guys. Do you freak out when people say they got gyp'ed?
posted by ibeji at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2005
I just saw Antony & the Johnsons last night, and Antony totally used "gay" meaning stupid. Not a big deal, you guys. Do you freak out when people say they got gyp'ed?
posted by ibeji at 7:23 PM on October 4, 2005
Yeah, ibeji, I do. I have attempted to eradicate all obviously offensive terms from my vocabulary. That includes "gyp", "jew" (as in "jew you down"), "retarded", "spazz" and "gay". Basically, anytime I'm made aware that the slang use of word offends someone, I try to stop using it. I can appreciate that YOU don't think it is a big deal, but if you read this thread at all, you'll realize that it IS a big deal to several members. I have no problem with folks using the above terms, but if you use them in my presence, I'm going to think you're either ignorant or a jerk.
posted by Bear at 1:50 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by Bear at 1:50 PM on October 5, 2005
"Someday, someone will explain to me why private theories about the logic of language so often turn into public crusades of moral awakening."
posted by flashboy at 6:02 PM on October 5, 2005
posted by flashboy at 6:02 PM on October 5, 2005
Weird, I've never heard it used to mean stupid, only to mean lame. As in, when someone might say "that is so lame", they instead say "that is so gay".
posted by jonson at 11:43 AM on October 6, 2005
posted by jonson at 11:43 AM on October 6, 2005
Here in Massachusetts, the use of "gay" to mean "stupid" is only found in working class or blue-collar environments. It's common to hear someone say, "That caahh [car] is wicked gay." While this may be offensive to people not used to it, I'm sure the intention isn't necessarily to offend or insult homosexuals. We live in very isolated classes here in the states. Norms in certain classes or groups often grow and flourish because of a lack of exposure to different viewpoints. You'll also find that the typical Boston accent exists in primarily working class communities.
That said, I cringe whenever I hear it. And, yes, I feel it is my responsibility to at least open a dialogue about it when I do hear it.
posted by tom_g at 12:54 PM on October 6, 2005
That said, I cringe whenever I hear it. And, yes, I feel it is my responsibility to at least open a dialogue about it when I do hear it.
posted by tom_g at 12:54 PM on October 6, 2005
Most people, unfortunately, know very well that 'gay' has two meanings, and are very aware of both. They may not understand that what they are saying is offensive, but usually, at least in my experience, they understand that they're making fun of homosexuals in a backhanded way.
Absolutely. It's not even backhanded. It's quite overt these days.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:08 PM on January 12, 2006
Absolutely. It's not even backhanded. It's quite overt these days.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:08 PM on January 12, 2006
Honestly, I do appreciate peoples sensitivity now days. And the fact that str8 people are so aware of gay peoples presence. But being so PC is annoying. My str8 roommate uses the "gay" word in that context, as do I; and I happen to be gay. Now if someone is being hostile about it thats a whole different issue. Me and my roommate/friends, are quick to defend our beliefs, even though I am the only gay guy in the group. Maybe consider lightening up a bit. For the most part, as long as your not trying to "str8n me out", I respect your right to your opinion and wont try to change you. People are different, be yourself and let others do the same. It's totally possible to lead by example, exposing him or her to your lifestyle including your siblings, may be enough to sesitize them to the social issues that bother you.
posted by cdavidc at 5:53 PM on January 12, 2006
posted by cdavidc at 5:53 PM on January 12, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:14 PM on October 3, 2005