Tight singer, sloppy band
June 19, 2013 2:10 PM Subscribe
I've been enjoying the hell out of Van Morrison's recordings with Them, and Janis Joplin's with Big Brother. I've realized they have something in common: a singer with impeccable rhythm, phrasing and timing -- better than nearly anyone in rock music, and up there with the greats of soul, jazz and gospel -- backed by a much sloppier, garage-ier bunch of instrumentalists. To a lesser extent, The Who and the White Stripes have the same thing going on: I'd say their respective frontmen had "good enough" rhythm rather than anything brilliant, but they were definitely the ones holding the whole band together from the top, while the rhythm section flopped and flailed around underneath. So: where else does that combination show up? (Doesn't necessarily have to be in rock, either, though the examples I've got all are. If you've got some long-lost recording of Nas, Nina Simone or Elvis Presley backed by the Shaggs, now's your chance to bring it out.)
Note that the question ISN'T "name bands with both R&B (or jazz or gospel....) and punk (or garage or psych...) influences."
For instance: The Clash is NOT an example of what I'm looking for, because they didn't have the sort of dramatic mismatch between singer and rhythm section that I'm talking about. The whole band could be tight as hell if they wanted to be, and never sounded flat-out sloppy except maybe as a joke.
Another thing I'm probably not looking for: the whole Captain Beefheart / Tom Waits "tight musicians faking sloppy" thing. (I mean, I love that stuff to pieces. But in the examples I'm familiar with, the singer is joining in on the "faking sloppy" act, which makes it Not The Same Thing. Find me a recording where James Brown fronts for the first-generation Magic Band and I will fall down and kiss your feet.)
Note that the question ISN'T "name bands with both R&B (or jazz or gospel....) and punk (or garage or psych...) influences."
For instance: The Clash is NOT an example of what I'm looking for, because they didn't have the sort of dramatic mismatch between singer and rhythm section that I'm talking about. The whole band could be tight as hell if they wanted to be, and never sounded flat-out sloppy except maybe as a joke.
Another thing I'm probably not looking for: the whole Captain Beefheart / Tom Waits "tight musicians faking sloppy" thing. (I mean, I love that stuff to pieces. But in the examples I'm familiar with, the singer is joining in on the "faking sloppy" act, which makes it Not The Same Thing. Find me a recording where James Brown fronts for the first-generation Magic Band and I will fall down and kiss your feet.)
Response by poster: Ah, yeah, "tight" may be the wrong word to use here.
I don't know that particular recording, but the incarnations of B.B. King's band that I've heard have all played with incredibly good, skillful rhythm and phrasing. They may not have been "tight" in the James Brown sense -- not keeping strict metronomic rhythm, not getting up ahead of the beat, maybe even lagging a good ways behind it -- but they definitely weren't sloppy. If they were behind the beat, it's because they MEANT to be.
Contrast that with Big Brother and the Holding Company. They didn't really even have the control of their instruments that they'd have needed to play behind the beat in a clean, skillful, deliberate way. They were just a big sloppy garage-rock mess. (But in a good way!)
Maybe the right way to put it isn't "tight" versus "loose," but rather "really good rhythm" (either tight like James Brown or loose like B.B. King) versus "just a total fucking happy drunk-ass train wreck."
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 2:21 PM on June 19, 2013
I don't know that particular recording, but the incarnations of B.B. King's band that I've heard have all played with incredibly good, skillful rhythm and phrasing. They may not have been "tight" in the James Brown sense -- not keeping strict metronomic rhythm, not getting up ahead of the beat, maybe even lagging a good ways behind it -- but they definitely weren't sloppy. If they were behind the beat, it's because they MEANT to be.
Contrast that with Big Brother and the Holding Company. They didn't really even have the control of their instruments that they'd have needed to play behind the beat in a clean, skillful, deliberate way. They were just a big sloppy garage-rock mess. (But in a good way!)
Maybe the right way to put it isn't "tight" versus "loose," but rather "really good rhythm" (either tight like James Brown or loose like B.B. King) versus "just a total fucking happy drunk-ass train wreck."
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 2:21 PM on June 19, 2013
hmm. I have to say I'm stumped here, because on first read I was like "oooh, you're looking for stuff like the early Police!!" but then you disallowed jazz influences and Stewart Copeland is a fucking genius so... yea, I'm lost.
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2013
OK thanks. Big Brother and the Holding Company seem above garage standard to me, but I certainly agree they are not playing at the level of groove that bands like the James Brown units did.
posted by thelonius at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Huh? No, jazz influence is totally fine. Do early Police recordings feature a singer with awesomely good rhythm and a rhythm section with catastrophically sloppy rhythm? Then I'm there!
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 2:30 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 2:30 PM on June 19, 2013
Bob Dylan with The Band?
Traffic/Steve Winwood?
Rod Stewart with Faces?
I'm not sure I fully understand your criteria, but these come to mind for me next to your examples.
posted by cmoj at 2:32 PM on June 19, 2013
Traffic/Steve Winwood?
Rod Stewart with Faces?
I'm not sure I fully understand your criteria, but these come to mind for me next to your examples.
posted by cmoj at 2:32 PM on June 19, 2013
I'm not sure if Neil Young counts as a tight enough lead singer to create the mismatch you want, but Crazy Horse was pure joyous slop.
posted by Beardman at 2:33 PM on June 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Beardman at 2:33 PM on June 19, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think early Police would fall under great players pretending to be sloppy. Although they did rush the hell out of tempos; you can see Summers screaming at Copeland about this in live footage. Also they had enough material for about 30 minutes, and they'd play free form stuff to pad it out, which increased the sloppiness factor.
posted by thelonius at 2:35 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 2:35 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Do early Police recordings feature a singer with awesomely good rhythm and a rhythm section with catastrophically sloppy rhythm?
yea, totally - their whole gig featured Sting being all coldly articulate and lyrical over a trainwreck happening in the background, but it was a heavily syncopated trainwreck and on review, yea what thelonious said.
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:42 PM on June 19, 2013
yea, totally - their whole gig featured Sting being all coldly articulate and lyrical over a trainwreck happening in the background, but it was a heavily syncopated trainwreck and on review, yea what thelonious said.
posted by lonefrontranger at 2:42 PM on June 19, 2013
Best answer: Steve Winwood with the Spencer Davis Group.
Linda Ronstadt with The Stone Poneys.
posted by mygoditsbob at 2:42 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Linda Ronstadt with The Stone Poneys.
posted by mygoditsbob at 2:42 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm not exactly sure I understand your criteria either, but it's possible the Faces may be up your alley. I wouldn't say the band was sloppy (though perhaps they could sometimes get a little sloppy live, considering that they were notorious for boozing it up onstage), but I would say they were often quite marvelously loose. And Rod Stewart, in the early '70s, was absolutely at the peak of his powers as a vocalist (something that may be hard to believe now -- but oh my god, could he fucking sing back then).
Stay With Me
(I Know) I'm Losing You
Maybe I'm Amazed
Jealous Guy (song starts around 1:11)
Cindy Incidentally
posted by scody at 2:53 PM on June 19, 2013
Stay With Me
(I Know) I'm Losing You
Maybe I'm Amazed
Jealous Guy (song starts around 1:11)
Cindy Incidentally
posted by scody at 2:53 PM on June 19, 2013
Hmm. Maybe some of the 90s grunge acts? Often the vocalists were more sophisticated and skilled than the band, especially in their earlier years. Although that's relative, I'm not sure they would qualify as sounding 'tight' vs. 'sloppy.'
Phish sounds like that sometimes, but it also seems like a different thing.
What about the Stones? That was their sound for much of their span.
Hey You Get Off My Cloud
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:04 PM on June 19, 2013
Phish sounds like that sometimes, but it also seems like a different thing.
What about the Stones? That was their sound for much of their span.
Hey You Get Off My Cloud
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:04 PM on June 19, 2013
You don't always hear it on their albums, the sloppiness tends to come through most live -- Heartbreaker
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:11 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:11 PM on June 19, 2013
Best answer: A couple of albums by Destroyer fit this bill. Check out This Night and the EP Notorious Lightning & Other Works. Dan Bejar, the meat and soul behind Destroyer, is a lyrical genius and a top-notch singer (even if his vocals can take some getting used to). But on This Night he only gave sketches of what he wanted the songs to sound like to the performers, and they didn't practice much. The result is expansive and very messy, but beautiful.
The same could be said for Notorious Lightning..., which is a collection of re-worked songs from the album Your Blues. Where Your Blues was synth-heavy and very precisely arranged, Notorious Lightning... is all crazy vibrations and wild rhythms from the guitar-heavy band Bejar toured with in support of Your Blues—Frog Eyes.
posted by carsonb at 3:26 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
The same could be said for Notorious Lightning..., which is a collection of re-worked songs from the album Your Blues. Where Your Blues was synth-heavy and very precisely arranged, Notorious Lightning... is all crazy vibrations and wild rhythms from the guitar-heavy band Bejar toured with in support of Your Blues—Frog Eyes.
posted by carsonb at 3:26 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Notorious Lightning (title track)
Makin' Angels (from This Night)
posted by carsonb at 3:55 PM on June 19, 2013
Makin' Angels (from This Night)
posted by carsonb at 3:55 PM on June 19, 2013
Best answer: Jim Morrison and The Doors were like that.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:01 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:01 PM on June 19, 2013
Slade? Lots of videos up there, just randomly chose this one.
posted by bongo_x at 4:16 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by bongo_x at 4:16 PM on June 19, 2013
Best answer: The Fall
The Bellrays (which fits the White Stripes analogy pretty closely, since they're all from Detroit and its a soul singer in front of a punk backing band)
Royal Headache
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:57 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
The Bellrays (which fits the White Stripes analogy pretty closely, since they're all from Detroit and its a soul singer in front of a punk backing band)
Royal Headache
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:57 PM on June 19, 2013 [1 favorite]
Possibly Tin Machine (David Bowie fronting a pretty straightforward rock band in late 80's/early 90's), although I'm not 100% certain I grok your criteria either.
Also, Eagles of Death Metal.
posted by usonian at 5:22 PM on June 19, 2013
Also, Eagles of Death Metal.
posted by usonian at 5:22 PM on June 19, 2013
Only because you mention the White Stripes, but I think the Black Key's earlier stuff from Thickfreakness and Rubber Factory have some pretty sloppy blues-garage tracks, and the lead singers voice is just as on point as it is today.
posted by windbox at 6:18 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by windbox at 6:18 PM on June 19, 2013
Ok, no, I think I'm wrong. Every version of that band has always seemed like they're being exactly as messy as they intend to be, which seems to fall outside your criteria.
posted by brennen at 9:04 PM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by brennen at 9:04 PM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yeah, honestly, your criteria does seem a little . . . . idiosyncratic. (I mean, if you think Moonie, Entwistle & Townshend were just "flopping and flailing" underneath Daltrey let me politely suggest that you really need to go listen again - those boys were approaching Coltrane/Mingus levels of rhythmic complexity & interplay, with poor Roger hanging on for dear life.)
Having said that, I'll second snuffleupagus's idea of early grunge, maybe especially Soundgarden. (ex. - Jesus Christ Pose)
Maybe The Replacements will scratch that itch? (Left Of The Dial), for example. Westerberg was hardly immune to the drunken shenanigans, but throughout their catalog there are often clearly points where the band only knew where the hell they were in the song because of what he was singing.
And I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but I wanna say that digging through the genres of "americana" or "alt-country" should find some stuff that works for you.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:51 PM on June 19, 2013 [7 favorites]
Having said that, I'll second snuffleupagus's idea of early grunge, maybe especially Soundgarden. (ex. - Jesus Christ Pose)
Maybe The Replacements will scratch that itch? (Left Of The Dial), for example. Westerberg was hardly immune to the drunken shenanigans, but throughout their catalog there are often clearly points where the band only knew where the hell they were in the song because of what he was singing.
And I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but I wanna say that digging through the genres of "americana" or "alt-country" should find some stuff that works for you.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:51 PM on June 19, 2013 [7 favorites]
Hmm. For varying interpretations of "tight" and "loose":
Ray Charles -- What'd I Say. Not sloppy at all, but the way the song builds up from a bit of rhythm and the keyboards, then layers in voice, then more instruments, then more singers invade with the call and response, then harmonies -- it just feels like an explosion of joy, or an entire array of instruments falling down a staircase and making beautiful music along the way. So open and loose, unlike the Pollockian layers of modern production.
Costello and the Attractions -- Hope You're Happy Now (sorry, audio is out of synch) The band isn't exactly loose or sloppy, but they still sound a lot larger and all over the place than you think they could sound. Faster and less lush than Charles, and I know there are some better examples from Costello and crew out there, but this is good.
The Fall (look, Mark E. Smith isn't the most technically smooth or melodic singer, but you did mention phrasing, rhythm and timing) Kicker Conspiracy and Totally Wired and I'll try to stop here.
Flamin' Groovies -- Kicks.
Gene Vincent -- Rip It Up.
Imaginary Cities -- Ride It Out. Again, the backing isn't sloppy, but there's that build to an explosion of joy again, which might be related to what you're looking for.
posted by maudlin at 10:22 PM on June 19, 2013
Ray Charles -- What'd I Say. Not sloppy at all, but the way the song builds up from a bit of rhythm and the keyboards, then layers in voice, then more instruments, then more singers invade with the call and response, then harmonies -- it just feels like an explosion of joy, or an entire array of instruments falling down a staircase and making beautiful music along the way. So open and loose, unlike the Pollockian layers of modern production.
Costello and the Attractions -- Hope You're Happy Now (sorry, audio is out of synch) The band isn't exactly loose or sloppy, but they still sound a lot larger and all over the place than you think they could sound. Faster and less lush than Charles, and I know there are some better examples from Costello and crew out there, but this is good.
The Fall (look, Mark E. Smith isn't the most technically smooth or melodic singer, but you did mention phrasing, rhythm and timing) Kicker Conspiracy and Totally Wired and I'll try to stop here.
Flamin' Groovies -- Kicks.
Gene Vincent -- Rip It Up.
Imaginary Cities -- Ride It Out. Again, the backing isn't sloppy, but there's that build to an explosion of joy again, which might be related to what you're looking for.
posted by maudlin at 10:22 PM on June 19, 2013
Cody ChesnuTT's Headphone Masterpiece, uh, sort of fits the bill. ChesnuTT is a soulful and creative singer and has a true knack for a catchy groove, but he mostly sucks at performing most of the instruments on the album. It has that ARTISTMUSTMAKEMUSIC feel of not giving a shit about anything except singing and playing your heart out.
posted by carsonb at 11:10 PM on June 19, 2013
posted by carsonb at 11:10 PM on June 19, 2013
The effect of David Sylvian and Derek Bailey together is similar to what I think you're after - but I'm not sure that you'd argue that Sylvian's 'holding it together' in quite the same way.
posted by monkey closet at 4:28 AM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by monkey closet at 4:28 AM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Little Joy?
posted by Captain Chesapeake at 8:23 AM on June 20, 2013
posted by Captain Chesapeake at 8:23 AM on June 20, 2013
Aerosmith's "Live Bootleg" Album may fit the bill.
posted by fredericsunday at 8:51 AM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by fredericsunday at 8:51 AM on June 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe Pavement (though they're kind of sloppy all around) or Cake? Not sure either meets your criteria, but they both have unusual lead singers and are both from California's Central Valley.
posted by cnc at 2:33 PM on June 20, 2013
posted by cnc at 2:33 PM on June 20, 2013
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posted by thelonius at 2:15 PM on June 19, 2013 [2 favorites]