Help me help you.
June 8, 2013 9:02 AM Subscribe
My husband recently had a meeting with his boss. Boss suggested he would have a better time getting ahead in the company if he dressed for success. Husband was offended that his work would be over-looked based on the way he dresses. Unfortunately, I agree with his boss. How can I positively coax my husband in to dressing better without making him self conscious?
My husband works in an office. His work is displayed on a very public level, but he is behind the scenes and not seen by the public. Obviously he is seen on a daily basis by his co-workers, bosses, and corporate officers. The office is fairly laid back as far as dress code- inferred business casual with a few suits at the corporate/ president level.
He has been in his industry for over a decade and is in a management position. His work has won many national awards. He recently had a very frank discussion with his boss. My husband was honest and straight forward stating that he was unsure what he was lacking to get ahead (next step for him would be a directorial position) when his work is getting constant praise. His boss suggested he should dress for success.
Husband got home and complained about how insulted he was about that remark. The truth is, my husband takes the casual dress code a little to far. He kind of dresses like a college kid (he is in his late 30's), with ripped t-shirts, cargo pants, button down shirts, and sneakers.
I told him it wouldn't be a bad idea to just try it. We wouldn't have to spend a fortune. His button down shirts are nice enough once ironed/ starched that if we added just a tie, some non-cargo khaki pants or even black pants or dark jeans, and better looking shoes he would look worlds more professional.
He is so sensitive about this that I'm not sure how to get him to come around without hurting his feelings. I think the tough love answer is that he should swallow his pride and play the game - his business is a rat race plain and simple, just like every where else. He is just so insulted that his work doesn't speak for itself. His success and happiness is our success and happiness, so I want to see him succeed and get where he wants to go.
Thoughts on how to proceed? What are some positive and encouraging ways I can help him come around and actually take his bosses advice?
My husband works in an office. His work is displayed on a very public level, but he is behind the scenes and not seen by the public. Obviously he is seen on a daily basis by his co-workers, bosses, and corporate officers. The office is fairly laid back as far as dress code- inferred business casual with a few suits at the corporate/ president level.
He has been in his industry for over a decade and is in a management position. His work has won many national awards. He recently had a very frank discussion with his boss. My husband was honest and straight forward stating that he was unsure what he was lacking to get ahead (next step for him would be a directorial position) when his work is getting constant praise. His boss suggested he should dress for success.
Husband got home and complained about how insulted he was about that remark. The truth is, my husband takes the casual dress code a little to far. He kind of dresses like a college kid (he is in his late 30's), with ripped t-shirts, cargo pants, button down shirts, and sneakers.
I told him it wouldn't be a bad idea to just try it. We wouldn't have to spend a fortune. His button down shirts are nice enough once ironed/ starched that if we added just a tie, some non-cargo khaki pants or even black pants or dark jeans, and better looking shoes he would look worlds more professional.
He is so sensitive about this that I'm not sure how to get him to come around without hurting his feelings. I think the tough love answer is that he should swallow his pride and play the game - his business is a rat race plain and simple, just like every where else. He is just so insulted that his work doesn't speak for itself. His success and happiness is our success and happiness, so I want to see him succeed and get where he wants to go.
Thoughts on how to proceed? What are some positive and encouraging ways I can help him come around and actually take his bosses advice?
Unfortunately I think he has to understand that if he doesn't look the part that the people who have the power to PUT him in the part won't SEE him in the part.
As to how to navigate a husbandly ego-tell him to think of it as an experiment. Shoot, tell him to try this for six months and see what happens. Or alternatively, ask him to think about the people who HAVE achieved what he wants and think about how they dress. Heck, make a chart. If you can get him to think about this analytically instead of emotionally, perhaps he can see it and even enjoy it as the game it actually is.
Would he object to taking his shirts to the cleaners and letting them starch them? It would save work and look snazzy.
One other thing. You didn't state his industry but if it is a "fun" one he might get away with some fun ties. My husband is in real estate and he even wears things like Bugs Bunny/Marvin the Martian/Yosemite Sam ties.
Let him vent, because on one hand the work SHOULD speak for itself, but on the other hand, boss and you are right, you always need to dress for the job you want not the one you have. And finally, maybe you can help him understand that if he wants to be in a directorial position, dressing nicer will have the added benefit of getting more respect from those he will be directing (this will be unconscious on their part-again, stress that yes, this is a game that humans play, and no reason he cannot take advantage of it.)
I know for a fact myself that I am treated way differently depending on how I dress, so once he has a little experience with taking a step up, that may be enough to encourage him.
Now if he is the type that wants to dig in his heels, tell him fine, but it would be a shame if all that stood between him and $ucce$$ was a little polishing. He's a diamond-he deserves a little cut and polish!
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:15 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
As to how to navigate a husbandly ego-tell him to think of it as an experiment. Shoot, tell him to try this for six months and see what happens. Or alternatively, ask him to think about the people who HAVE achieved what he wants and think about how they dress. Heck, make a chart. If you can get him to think about this analytically instead of emotionally, perhaps he can see it and even enjoy it as the game it actually is.
Would he object to taking his shirts to the cleaners and letting them starch them? It would save work and look snazzy.
One other thing. You didn't state his industry but if it is a "fun" one he might get away with some fun ties. My husband is in real estate and he even wears things like Bugs Bunny/Marvin the Martian/Yosemite Sam ties.
Let him vent, because on one hand the work SHOULD speak for itself, but on the other hand, boss and you are right, you always need to dress for the job you want not the one you have. And finally, maybe you can help him understand that if he wants to be in a directorial position, dressing nicer will have the added benefit of getting more respect from those he will be directing (this will be unconscious on their part-again, stress that yes, this is a game that humans play, and no reason he cannot take advantage of it.)
I know for a fact myself that I am treated way differently depending on how I dress, so once he has a little experience with taking a step up, that may be enough to encourage him.
Now if he is the type that wants to dig in his heels, tell him fine, but it would be a shame if all that stood between him and $ucce$$ was a little polishing. He's a diamond-he deserves a little cut and polish!
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:15 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Incrementally. Start with nicer shoes or nicer pants. Add the other after a few weeks. Then add the starched shirt. THen a few weeks later add the tie. If he needs a haircut, get that first.
Tell him it is strictly business. Not personal. He can wear whatever the frick he wants at home.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:25 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Tell him it is strictly business. Not personal. He can wear whatever the frick he wants at home.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 9:25 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Maybe try making it more of a carrot instead of a stick. He deserves to look suave, professional, and admirably well dressed. He looks good with a more structured look, it emphasizes his features, etc. Load on the praise, because it seems like he isn't feeling enough of it right now.
Both men's and women's work clothes have a tendency to be less than comfortable and a little more hassle to work with than a t-shirt and cargo pants. Make sure you are looking for comfortable fabric and non restrictive clothing. Get new insoles for dress shoes. Old Navy is not too pretentious and has a wide range of comfortable affordable khakis and polos.
Then change into new clothes and go out for dinner at a favorite restaurant. Get dessert.
posted by donut_princess at 9:27 AM on June 8, 2013
Both men's and women's work clothes have a tendency to be less than comfortable and a little more hassle to work with than a t-shirt and cargo pants. Make sure you are looking for comfortable fabric and non restrictive clothing. Get new insoles for dress shoes. Old Navy is not too pretentious and has a wide range of comfortable affordable khakis and polos.
Then change into new clothes and go out for dinner at a favorite restaurant. Get dessert.
posted by donut_princess at 9:27 AM on June 8, 2013
It's a change he has to want to make. My husband took the plunge and switched from wrinkled t-shirts more professional wear and it did make a big impact on his work life.
We took it on as a joint project, went shopping together, set up a laundry plan together, and made each other stick to it.
I agree with trialing the experiment for 6 months to see what happens.
posted by MadMadam at 9:27 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
We took it on as a joint project, went shopping together, set up a laundry plan together, and made each other stick to it.
I agree with trialing the experiment for 6 months to see what happens.
posted by MadMadam at 9:27 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree about easing into it. Like, start out with "no clothes with holes, no cargo pants."
posted by mskyle at 9:29 AM on June 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 9:29 AM on June 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
SAotB raises a good point: the people with the power to move him up can't visualise him in the role currently, not because of his ability but because he would be in front of the client in ripped clothes.
I wear professional office wear in the office but immediately change into the clothes I want to wear when I get home. The suggestion to incrementally upgrade his office wear is a good one.
posted by arcticseal at 9:34 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wear professional office wear in the office but immediately change into the clothes I want to wear when I get home. The suggestion to incrementally upgrade his office wear is a good one.
posted by arcticseal at 9:34 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
First, I would sympathize with him. I would find it really aggravating to have someone look me in the face and tell me I need to dress better.
In the big picture, he's been handed a gift. All he needs to do to move up is not wear ragged clothes? That's great news! Hopefully once he gets past the (very real) annoyance factor of being told he doesn't dress well enough, he will come to appreciate that that's about the easiest thing you can be told to change.
posted by BibiRose at 9:35 AM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
In the big picture, he's been handed a gift. All he needs to do to move up is not wear ragged clothes? That's great news! Hopefully once he gets past the (very real) annoyance factor of being told he doesn't dress well enough, he will come to appreciate that that's about the easiest thing you can be told to change.
posted by BibiRose at 9:35 AM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
I disagree with the idea that you need to be gentle or sensitive about this. Your husband is a late 30s professional. He can either choose to dress (and act) like a grown up, or not. If he chooses not, it shouldn't surprise him that some people will not treat him like a grown up.
Welcome to real life.
posted by COD at 9:47 AM on June 8, 2013 [21 favorites]
Welcome to real life.
posted by COD at 9:47 AM on June 8, 2013 [21 favorites]
Ouch. I can understand why your husband is feels sensitive and defensive. He probably does want to improve his style now that it's been brought to his attention, what you can do is help him not let his defenses get in the way. Here's what I would do:
- agree that it's terribly unfair that people's work don't get to stand on it's merit. He needs to know you're on his side. He probably resents the implication that he's less than a professional, especially when he takes his work so seriously. So I'd avoid saying anything that indicates you're endorsing the idea that it would be "more professional." Just acknowledge that it's a difference between workplaces. And it's a very easy fix, so help him embrace that. It's not like his boss dumped a load of toxic psychobabble on him, which happens to a lot of people when they discuss career paths with bosses.
- It sounds like he likes comfortable clothes - so find him some business casual items that are truly comfortable and fit well. There's a lot of choice out there. You want to make this very easy on him. This might require you shopping for him, or going shopping together.
- When he tries on the new clothes, praise him to the high heavens. Don't be insincere, but let him know how great he looks. Don't compare it to the old comfy stuff. You want to say stuff like, "Huh, I wasn't sure about a polo on you, but that color looks really sexy on you!" (Or whatever complimentary language suits you - brings out his eyes, flatters his butt, etc.) You want to avoid sounding like a mom dressing up her kid on picture day. You do want to sound like a woman who really, really, really wants her man.
posted by stowaway at 9:48 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
- agree that it's terribly unfair that people's work don't get to stand on it's merit. He needs to know you're on his side. He probably resents the implication that he's less than a professional, especially when he takes his work so seriously. So I'd avoid saying anything that indicates you're endorsing the idea that it would be "more professional." Just acknowledge that it's a difference between workplaces. And it's a very easy fix, so help him embrace that. It's not like his boss dumped a load of toxic psychobabble on him, which happens to a lot of people when they discuss career paths with bosses.
- It sounds like he likes comfortable clothes - so find him some business casual items that are truly comfortable and fit well. There's a lot of choice out there. You want to make this very easy on him. This might require you shopping for him, or going shopping together.
- When he tries on the new clothes, praise him to the high heavens. Don't be insincere, but let him know how great he looks. Don't compare it to the old comfy stuff. You want to say stuff like, "Huh, I wasn't sure about a polo on you, but that color looks really sexy on you!" (Or whatever complimentary language suits you - brings out his eyes, flatters his butt, etc.) You want to avoid sounding like a mom dressing up her kid on picture day. You do want to sound like a woman who really, really, really wants her man.
posted by stowaway at 9:48 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Just ask him what's most important to him: getting the higher-level of position or magically getting everyone to think the way he does about the relative value of dressing professionally (and essentially going on a career-advancement strike until they comply.)
Seriously, this is a classic "you can be right or you can win" scenario.
He may find this book helpful.
(Note: if he's super sensitive, absolutely be gentle about it; the message itself can't change though. He needs to decide what his priority is.)
posted by SMPA at 9:50 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Seriously, this is a classic "you can be right or you can win" scenario.
He may find this book helpful.
(Note: if he's super sensitive, absolutely be gentle about it; the message itself can't change though. He needs to decide what his priority is.)
posted by SMPA at 9:50 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
He may need to understand that getting promoted isn't about the work you're currently doing; it's about the potential people see in you for other work at the next level. So someone whose work is good for the level he's at but doesn't demonstrate an understanding of the requirements or expectations of playing the next roles up, which at a director level in even a casual environment has a particular image, won't be considered for it. "Dress for the job you want, not the one you have." is exactly the right thing here. Do the directors and executives dress the way your husband does? If not, then he isn't going to join their club because they don't think he understands the requirements.
posted by marylynn at 9:51 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by marylynn at 9:51 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
I work in a law firm that is pretty conservative even by current legal profession standards, so if I may bring some of my experience to the discussion. Also, I am pretty conservative about such matters myself.
There is a saying, "dress for the job you want, not the job you have", which I see St. Alia has already cited. She is right. I am a man in my late 30s too (and I evaluate employees, which has a bearing on their pay and position) and if I see someone dressed in "ripped t-shirts, cargo pants, button down shirts, and sneakers", (and this certianly goes for a late 30s man) I think that this is someone who is not even trying to play grownup and I would not take him seriously. In fact, I would have anyone in ripped clothing sent home.
Your husband is offended that his work isn't all it takes. In other words, his work is objectively good and this business about attire is just the opinions of fuddy-duddies. You can turn this around to show him what he needs to do. His bruised ego is his subjective feeling but what his boss told him his what he objectively needs to do if he wants to advance. He called for the meeting with his boss and asked, "what do I need to do with advance?" The boss obliged him by giving him the information, so it bizarre to complain about getting the information he wanted to get. And, he's lucky! Does your husband have to commit some crime? No, he just has to improve his workplace appearance.
Right now, the ball is in his court. I do not take from your question that he has to change his attire or be fired. He can keep his clothes and stay where he is at, or he can improve his attire and get that promotion. Only he can decide what is more important. If he still is having trouble processing it, have him imagine if he didn't bathe regularly and therefore had terrible BO at work. Would he still think that his work should stand by itself?
FWIW, I wear suits to work every day but dress much more casually on the weekends and off-days (but no torn clothing, alas). Nice clothing is not uncomfortable. To the contrary, nice clothes that fit well are a joy to wear. There is no need to take "baby steps". Just come into work on Monday in a suit or slacks or whatever the boss said his new work uniform is. Yes, this is his uniform.
posted by Tanizaki at 9:52 AM on June 8, 2013 [7 favorites]
There is a saying, "dress for the job you want, not the job you have", which I see St. Alia has already cited. She is right. I am a man in my late 30s too (and I evaluate employees, which has a bearing on their pay and position) and if I see someone dressed in "ripped t-shirts, cargo pants, button down shirts, and sneakers", (and this certianly goes for a late 30s man) I think that this is someone who is not even trying to play grownup and I would not take him seriously. In fact, I would have anyone in ripped clothing sent home.
Your husband is offended that his work isn't all it takes. In other words, his work is objectively good and this business about attire is just the opinions of fuddy-duddies. You can turn this around to show him what he needs to do. His bruised ego is his subjective feeling but what his boss told him his what he objectively needs to do if he wants to advance. He called for the meeting with his boss and asked, "what do I need to do with advance?" The boss obliged him by giving him the information, so it bizarre to complain about getting the information he wanted to get. And, he's lucky! Does your husband have to commit some crime? No, he just has to improve his workplace appearance.
Right now, the ball is in his court. I do not take from your question that he has to change his attire or be fired. He can keep his clothes and stay where he is at, or he can improve his attire and get that promotion. Only he can decide what is more important. If he still is having trouble processing it, have him imagine if he didn't bathe regularly and therefore had terrible BO at work. Would he still think that his work should stand by itself?
FWIW, I wear suits to work every day but dress much more casually on the weekends and off-days (but no torn clothing, alas). Nice clothing is not uncomfortable. To the contrary, nice clothes that fit well are a joy to wear. There is no need to take "baby steps". Just come into work on Monday in a suit or slacks or whatever the boss said his new work uniform is. Yes, this is his uniform.
posted by Tanizaki at 9:52 AM on June 8, 2013 [7 favorites]
I disagree about incremental improvements.
Go whole hog or don't bother. Piecemeal wardrobe changes don't tend to work for people who have been told they need to dress better because they will continue to wear comfort items that will undermine looking better and they will likely get little or no positive feedback.
The boss has said make an effort. If the effort looks half-hearted that will be just as bad, if not worse, than making no effort. It will seem like he can't take feedback on board and that is probably the worst career killer there is.
Tell him to act fast. Don't shop with him (women really are not a great help at dressing men). Point him at a few medium-high quality men's clothing stores and tell him to get help on a full work wardrobe. Get help from a man. Don't buy anything on the first go around. Go back to the store you felt was the best after trying several and buy a full wardrobe from it. Get clothing tailored to fit. It matters.
His goal from here on out should be to always be just slightly better dressed than the people in the jobs he wants.
posted by srboisvert at 9:53 AM on June 8, 2013 [17 favorites]
Go whole hog or don't bother. Piecemeal wardrobe changes don't tend to work for people who have been told they need to dress better because they will continue to wear comfort items that will undermine looking better and they will likely get little or no positive feedback.
The boss has said make an effort. If the effort looks half-hearted that will be just as bad, if not worse, than making no effort. It will seem like he can't take feedback on board and that is probably the worst career killer there is.
Tell him to act fast. Don't shop with him (women really are not a great help at dressing men). Point him at a few medium-high quality men's clothing stores and tell him to get help on a full work wardrobe. Get help from a man. Don't buy anything on the first go around. Go back to the store you felt was the best after trying several and buy a full wardrobe from it. Get clothing tailored to fit. It matters.
His goal from here on out should be to always be just slightly better dressed than the people in the jobs he wants.
posted by srboisvert at 9:53 AM on June 8, 2013 [17 favorites]
It's probably part of his work identity that he doesn't need to look and dress like everyone else, his work speaks for itself. Now he's being told that isn't the case - how irksome. I'm glad your husband's boss was honest with him though.
I have a friend (field geologist) who resents the hell out of having to wear the 'corporate uniform' when he's not in the field and retaliates by wearing tailored shirts, dress pants and darkwash jeans made by companies like Patagonia and Mountain Equipment Co-Op (in Canada). Maybe buying business clothing at a place other than a standard menswear place would make it more palatable?
posted by variella at 9:55 AM on June 8, 2013
I have a friend (field geologist) who resents the hell out of having to wear the 'corporate uniform' when he's not in the field and retaliates by wearing tailored shirts, dress pants and darkwash jeans made by companies like Patagonia and Mountain Equipment Co-Op (in Canada). Maybe buying business clothing at a place other than a standard menswear place would make it more palatable?
posted by variella at 9:55 AM on June 8, 2013
Does he maybe not like dressy clothes because he feels uncomfortable with them? Either physically uncomfortable or that he doesn't think it's "him"?
For example, my husband looks great in dress clothes. He doesn't need to wear them at his current job, but has a few options from our wedding and interviews. (He works in IT, his boss wears Transformers T-shirts and Crocs...)
My husband is picky about dress clothing because he has a hard time finding things that are comfortable. He is broad shouldered and has wider hips and thighs. Therefore it's difficult for him to find dress clothes - especially pants - that are comfortable and look nice.
Does your husband also have trouble actually finding dress clothes that fit?
If so, that could be part of the issue. If not, it could be that he doesn't feel that it's "him". If it's the second, yeah, he needs to get over it.
Go shopping with him. Find some staff that can help too. He can also still be "him" in dress clothes. There are many nice dress shirts with interesting patterns and brighter colors. There are also tons of dress shoes that are very cool (Check out Steve Madden for Men!)
I think it's going to be about him finding "himself" in dress clothes. He doesn't have to do black slacks and a gray shirt. He can use color and interesting shoes and still look professional.
Maybe you can buy some men's fashion magazines like GQ for inspiration?
posted by Crystalinne at 9:59 AM on June 8, 2013
For example, my husband looks great in dress clothes. He doesn't need to wear them at his current job, but has a few options from our wedding and interviews. (He works in IT, his boss wears Transformers T-shirts and Crocs...)
My husband is picky about dress clothing because he has a hard time finding things that are comfortable. He is broad shouldered and has wider hips and thighs. Therefore it's difficult for him to find dress clothes - especially pants - that are comfortable and look nice.
Does your husband also have trouble actually finding dress clothes that fit?
If so, that could be part of the issue. If not, it could be that he doesn't feel that it's "him". If it's the second, yeah, he needs to get over it.
Go shopping with him. Find some staff that can help too. He can also still be "him" in dress clothes. There are many nice dress shirts with interesting patterns and brighter colors. There are also tons of dress shoes that are very cool (Check out Steve Madden for Men!)
I think it's going to be about him finding "himself" in dress clothes. He doesn't have to do black slacks and a gray shirt. He can use color and interesting shoes and still look professional.
Maybe you can buy some men's fashion magazines like GQ for inspiration?
posted by Crystalinne at 9:59 AM on June 8, 2013
To quote srboisvert: The boss has said make an effort. He either accepts that his career is stalled, and possibly in jeopardy, unless he pays his boss heed or he doesn't accept it. Anything else, frankly, is childish. Since you're his wife, it's almost certainly unkind of you to put it to him that way. The advice above that you commiserate about how stupid it is is good, but you need to help him recognize that once your boss says to you: your dress is insufficiently professional for us to take you sufficiently seriously, you are left only two choices: dress better or start looking for another workplace. You won't overcome barriers to advancement in your organization by ignoring them, no matter how capable a professional you are.
My husband would be very receptive to his boss' advice that he dress better or accept that he'll never advance. Yours, apparently wasn't; hopefully because you know him well, you can figure out how to frame the advice so it's palatable.
And srboisvert's second & third points are equally important: your husband can't make these improvements piecemeal and you can't make them for him. The best you can do is agree that it's stupid and annoying and meet him at a bar when he's done shopping.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
My husband would be very receptive to his boss' advice that he dress better or accept that he'll never advance. Yours, apparently wasn't; hopefully because you know him well, you can figure out how to frame the advice so it's palatable.
And srboisvert's second & third points are equally important: your husband can't make these improvements piecemeal and you can't make them for him. The best you can do is agree that it's stupid and annoying and meet him at a bar when he's done shopping.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Think of it this way: they are offering MONEY and POWER in exchange for wearing a few clothes.
Or think of it this way: wearing office clothes is part of the "work." In any job, there are lots of things you do that are not "productive" but are part of the job. This is one of them.
There are just some things you have to do in order to get along. I mean, everybody uses deodorant so they don't smell bad to other people.
I think you're being a little too precious here. I think a little "suck it up, that's how the world works" might do wonders.
posted by musofire at 10:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
Or think of it this way: wearing office clothes is part of the "work." In any job, there are lots of things you do that are not "productive" but are part of the job. This is one of them.
There are just some things you have to do in order to get along. I mean, everybody uses deodorant so they don't smell bad to other people.
I think you're being a little too precious here. I think a little "suck it up, that's how the world works" might do wonders.
posted by musofire at 10:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
Does he ever dress up, say for dates or weddings/funerals? He does, right? So in those instances, even though it might be unfair for people to expect him to change his normal dress, he does?
This is no different. It's not about his work, it's about his willingness to look professional in order to inspire confidence in others and show that he takes his job seriously.
Does he cut his hair? Shave? Shower? Then he already makes some effort. None of those things affect his work, either, but he does them because it's expected, whether or not he feels like it.
Human societies are weird and complex things, the business world no less so. We use our appearance to communicate. He can't send the message he wants dressing the way he does.
And it is possible, for men especially, to look good and be comfortable. Maybe you should explain what professional dress for a woman is like, with the bras and the pantyhose and the heels and sometimes the makeup and jewelry etc. etc. Whatever effort he takes isn't going to be nearly as much as a woman would.
posted by emjaybee at 10:06 AM on June 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
This is no different. It's not about his work, it's about his willingness to look professional in order to inspire confidence in others and show that he takes his job seriously.
Does he cut his hair? Shave? Shower? Then he already makes some effort. None of those things affect his work, either, but he does them because it's expected, whether or not he feels like it.
Human societies are weird and complex things, the business world no less so. We use our appearance to communicate. He can't send the message he wants dressing the way he does.
And it is possible, for men especially, to look good and be comfortable. Maybe you should explain what professional dress for a woman is like, with the bras and the pantyhose and the heels and sometimes the makeup and jewelry etc. etc. Whatever effort he takes isn't going to be nearly as much as a woman would.
posted by emjaybee at 10:06 AM on June 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
Not sure there is a way to get him to take that on board that isn't going to see him slightly put out for a short while. It's not just about competence, it is about projecting that you are able to do that more senior role. And if he turns up in ripped t-shirts and is looking for a very senior role that doesn't really compute in most cases, even in casual environments. Perhaps it might help to start the idea that this would have started to be a problem before now if he wasn't as brilliant at his job as he appears to be...
But much as it may pain your husband to realise this he is no longer 16. Ripped t-shirts were ok when he was 16 and his next goal was to finish high school. But now, decidedly older than 16 and with goals that are significantly different, projecting himself as a kid just sends mixed messages. And in senior roles you don't want mixed messages.
As for how to get there. Incremenetal changes. Start with banishing all things ripped or very juvenile in terms of t-shirt messages or ill fitting from the work wardrobe. Then look at what kind of pants and footwear he has in his wardrobe. He should start to wear the smarter pants to work and shoes, not sneakers. The aim is clean, ironed, well fitting, age appropriate. No immediate investments are required and with smaller changes like that in clothes he already has he will be less outside his comfort zone. Nor would it be immediately obvious to his colleagues that he is doing anything different at this point, which should help him feel more relaxed.
As he makes those small changes he should start to pay more attention to how people in the role he aspires to present themselves at work. How far off the mark is he? What could he incorporate to bridge the gap? From what you say it doesn't sound as if he would actually need to wear a suit and tie...he'd probably still get the 'he'sbrilliant at his job' benefit and may well get away with the smart end of smart casual or the very casual end of business casual. So haircut (if needed), ironed shirts, smart jeans or smarter but non suit trousers and shoes as opposed to sneakers would probably go a long way in terms of day to day presentation.
For example I'm an accountant. At my most casual clients my male team members get away with wearing button down shirts, chinos and shoes...if they turn up in suits at this client they get laughed at by the client...clearly these same people turn up in dark suits, ties and black shoes at the most conservative clients and somewhere in between at the rest...I have one client who is perfectly happy for us to turn up in some variation of business casual clothing Mo-Thursday (they dress pretty casually but not jeans and t-shirts) but they get very upset if we don't join in their casual Friday and turn up in jeans...so every Thursday I remind my team to dress casually but to make sure that they pick their smart jeans and their smart casual tops because we're still supposed to project a professional image...it is all about meeting expectations, not personal preference. And ripped t-shirts, cargo pants and sneakers will never/very rarely project what you want your more senior people to project, even in the most casual of organisations.
posted by koahiatamadl at 10:14 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
But much as it may pain your husband to realise this he is no longer 16. Ripped t-shirts were ok when he was 16 and his next goal was to finish high school. But now, decidedly older than 16 and with goals that are significantly different, projecting himself as a kid just sends mixed messages. And in senior roles you don't want mixed messages.
As for how to get there. Incremenetal changes. Start with banishing all things ripped or very juvenile in terms of t-shirt messages or ill fitting from the work wardrobe. Then look at what kind of pants and footwear he has in his wardrobe. He should start to wear the smarter pants to work and shoes, not sneakers. The aim is clean, ironed, well fitting, age appropriate. No immediate investments are required and with smaller changes like that in clothes he already has he will be less outside his comfort zone. Nor would it be immediately obvious to his colleagues that he is doing anything different at this point, which should help him feel more relaxed.
As he makes those small changes he should start to pay more attention to how people in the role he aspires to present themselves at work. How far off the mark is he? What could he incorporate to bridge the gap? From what you say it doesn't sound as if he would actually need to wear a suit and tie...he'd probably still get the 'he'sbrilliant at his job' benefit and may well get away with the smart end of smart casual or the very casual end of business casual. So haircut (if needed), ironed shirts, smart jeans or smarter but non suit trousers and shoes as opposed to sneakers would probably go a long way in terms of day to day presentation.
For example I'm an accountant. At my most casual clients my male team members get away with wearing button down shirts, chinos and shoes...if they turn up in suits at this client they get laughed at by the client...clearly these same people turn up in dark suits, ties and black shoes at the most conservative clients and somewhere in between at the rest...I have one client who is perfectly happy for us to turn up in some variation of business casual clothing Mo-Thursday (they dress pretty casually but not jeans and t-shirts) but they get very upset if we don't join in their casual Friday and turn up in jeans...so every Thursday I remind my team to dress casually but to make sure that they pick their smart jeans and their smart casual tops because we're still supposed to project a professional image...it is all about meeting expectations, not personal preference. And ripped t-shirts, cargo pants and sneakers will never/very rarely project what you want your more senior people to project, even in the most casual of organisations.
posted by koahiatamadl at 10:14 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
To paraphrase myself: Your husband was taken aback by his boss's advice; hopefully because you know him well, you can figure out how to frame the advice so it's palatable. Perhaps that's how you could approach the conversation: helping your husband see that his boss wasn't criticizing him, but offering him a way to get what he wants. Your husband feels he deserves more from his company, because his work is that good. When he asked his boss how to get that, instead of saying "You'll never get that", his boss said "Stop dressing like a college kid." That's positive feedback from someone who can help or hinder professional progress. Seriously. A frank conversation with your boss that points out something simple as the barrier to advancement is a godsend. and he's lucky: I work in the legal profession--which still judges you first on your suit and shoes, second on your professional connections, third on your law school and then on your work.
I think the solution here is not buying your husband a work wardrobe, but helping him understand which choice is more palatable to him: accepting his boss's advice or accepting that he won't advance dressed in hole-y t-shirts.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:15 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think the solution here is not buying your husband a work wardrobe, but helping him understand which choice is more palatable to him: accepting his boss's advice or accepting that he won't advance dressed in hole-y t-shirts.
posted by crush-onastick at 10:15 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Think of it this way: they are offering MONEY and POWER in exchange for wearing a few clothes dressing well is a potent way of taking money and power.
When I was younger, I would've rebelled in this same sort of way, but rebellion only makes sense if you're focused on the notion that you are an underdog, and that others have power over you. What I've since realized is that there's nothing magical about the boss man. He's made of the same stuff, swimming in the same waters. Sure, he's had some advantages that I didn't, but ultimately he's made of the same vulnerable stuff and has only slightly more influence over the rules than I do. If I want to, I have the power to be him. If clothes are part of that, who cares? That's the shift in thinking that I'd suggest.
posted by jon1270 at 10:16 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
When I was younger, I would've rebelled in this same sort of way, but rebellion only makes sense if you're focused on the notion that you are an underdog, and that others have power over you. What I've since realized is that there's nothing magical about the boss man. He's made of the same stuff, swimming in the same waters. Sure, he's had some advantages that I didn't, but ultimately he's made of the same vulnerable stuff and has only slightly more influence over the rules than I do. If I want to, I have the power to be him. If clothes are part of that, who cares? That's the shift in thinking that I'd suggest.
posted by jon1270 at 10:16 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you want to go out on the field with the rest of the team, you have to wear the uniform. That's all this is about. If you don't wear the uniform, you'll get called on it no matter how many goals or home runs you score. He hasn't had a public-facing job, so it hasn't been an issue. If anything, the slack that he's been allowed is a testimonial to the quality of his work. But a directoral position, I assume, is going to be more visible. Now it's time to also look like he belongs out there.
posted by Longtime Listener at 10:20 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Longtime Listener at 10:20 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think you should make a show of taking the emotion out of it and just doing it. Don't have a big philosophical conversation about it, just say welp, gotta go buy your new work uniform. It's exactly like going out and buying new cargo pants, except these new ones aren't a wrinkle farm.
I understand how bad this stings, because it's not just "your work doesn't exist in a vacuum," it's "are you stupid?" It always sucks to get dinged on something you haven't noticed or don't think is important or refuse to think is important.
But grown-ups get over it and move on. Once you have a wardrobe of comfortable, well-fitting professional clothes (especially if you stick to a basic color scheme), it's just as easy to dress-and-go.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:22 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
I understand how bad this stings, because it's not just "your work doesn't exist in a vacuum," it's "are you stupid?" It always sucks to get dinged on something you haven't noticed or don't think is important or refuse to think is important.
But grown-ups get over it and move on. Once you have a wardrobe of comfortable, well-fitting professional clothes (especially if you stick to a basic color scheme), it's just as easy to dress-and-go.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:22 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm curious as to why he wears these ratty clothes in the first place - I think that's part of the equation. My boyfriend (also 30s man) will wear his clothes until they are so threadbare that they disappear in a puff of smoke, and gets really defensive at the suggestion that it's time to throw anything away. (We couldn't even donate the stuff at this point, and he's still trying to wear it, bless his heart.) Seriously - hoodie full of holes and splattered with paint, and we're going out to dinner. When I asked if he was going to wear that he was all indignant about how he's "had this hoodie for 16 years!!!1!" and I knew then that I was dealing with someone who was more than just, like, not into fashion. But, he became very attached to his things because of 1) shuttling between divorced parents all his life, and 2) losing a lot of belongings during Hurricane Katrina.
So I have learned to be gentle with him, and to slather on the compliments when he wears a new shirt (he really does look pretty snazzy when the clothes fit properly.) The other week he had to dress up for a work event and I am confident that he understood how much I liked the look, because I said it with kisses. I think I even goosed him, if I recall.
Over time this has decreased his defensiveness a lot, AND made it easier for him to go shopping and choose things on his own - because he knows that I'm going to be proud of him for taking care of himself and paying attention to the image he is projecting. He's less anxious about what to choose when shopping. He still dresses like a 14-year-old boy most of the time, but in the past month he has chucked two pairs of beat-to-Hell shoes and gotten two new pairs, that he likes a lot and is working better to take care of. I continue to be amazed.
If this wasn't about work (and I agree with everyone saying, yes this is insulting but it sounds like he needs to do it anyway) what would the conversation be like?
posted by polly_dactyl at 10:31 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
So I have learned to be gentle with him, and to slather on the compliments when he wears a new shirt (he really does look pretty snazzy when the clothes fit properly.) The other week he had to dress up for a work event and I am confident that he understood how much I liked the look, because I said it with kisses. I think I even goosed him, if I recall.
Over time this has decreased his defensiveness a lot, AND made it easier for him to go shopping and choose things on his own - because he knows that I'm going to be proud of him for taking care of himself and paying attention to the image he is projecting. He's less anxious about what to choose when shopping. He still dresses like a 14-year-old boy most of the time, but in the past month he has chucked two pairs of beat-to-Hell shoes and gotten two new pairs, that he likes a lot and is working better to take care of. I continue to be amazed.
If this wasn't about work (and I agree with everyone saying, yes this is insulting but it sounds like he needs to do it anyway) what would the conversation be like?
posted by polly_dactyl at 10:31 AM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Ask him why his identity is to tied to dressing the way he wants and not to promoting his work?
posted by discopolo at 10:41 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by discopolo at 10:41 AM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
And I think the whole "I'm not changing how I dress!" is immature. It's laughable. I don't think you should engage with trying to explain or help. He'll shake it off and go shopping.
posted by discopolo at 10:46 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by discopolo at 10:46 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Consider adopting a fetish for guys in suits.
posted by travelwithcats at 10:56 AM on June 8, 2013
posted by travelwithcats at 10:56 AM on June 8, 2013
And while you're getting him out of the ripped t-shirts, maybe take a gander at his grooming, too?
posted by Ideefixe at 11:05 AM on June 8, 2013
posted by Ideefixe at 11:05 AM on June 8, 2013
I'd probably be miffed if my boss offered such advice unsolicited, but he asked and was given an honest answer. That's a good thing. Most bosses would hem and haw and say something like "gee, well, I don't know either."
One way to understand how it isn't just about "the work" is that most businesses have customers. Sometimes those customers see the inner workings of the operation. Seeing well dressed people makes buyers feel like the company is professional and capable. Better clothes = more sales. Analogy- would you really want to eat in a restaurant where the back room people looked like ass? The food tastes good either way, but clean and well dressed employees give you the impression that these people take care of the little things.
Honestly, there is nothing at all hard about going to Kohls and buying a couple pairs of Dockers and a half dozen Arrow shirts. If it takes the investment of a couple hundred dollars a year to get a promotion and raise that pays that investment off in one paycheck, it seems silly not to.
posted by gjc at 11:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
One way to understand how it isn't just about "the work" is that most businesses have customers. Sometimes those customers see the inner workings of the operation. Seeing well dressed people makes buyers feel like the company is professional and capable. Better clothes = more sales. Analogy- would you really want to eat in a restaurant where the back room people looked like ass? The food tastes good either way, but clean and well dressed employees give you the impression that these people take care of the little things.
Honestly, there is nothing at all hard about going to Kohls and buying a couple pairs of Dockers and a half dozen Arrow shirts. If it takes the investment of a couple hundred dollars a year to get a promotion and raise that pays that investment off in one paycheck, it seems silly not to.
posted by gjc at 11:05 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think a constructive conversation about what he expected his boss to say, and some other things that his boss might have said that would be far worse. Put this in perspective: dressing better is an easy problem to solve, compared to being despised by someone higher up, not being qualified, or any of the other dozens of reasons people might not be getting promotions.
Appearance is a tool that your husband can wield to improve his position. Many people are not that lucky- their problems require much more effort.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:16 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
Appearance is a tool that your husband can wield to improve his position. Many people are not that lucky- their problems require much more effort.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:16 AM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
He is just so insulted that his work doesn't speak for itself.
His work doesn't speak for itself because being at work isn't just about doing the actual work. Being an employee means that your presence matters. If how you present yourself to the world tells a story about what's inside your head, then how you present yourself at work tells a story about who you are and what you want to be.
I always tell my husband "como te ven te tratan", that is "how you look is how people treat you". If he wants to be a director, he has to look like a director. Simple as that.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 11:30 AM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
His work doesn't speak for itself because being at work isn't just about doing the actual work. Being an employee means that your presence matters. If how you present yourself to the world tells a story about what's inside your head, then how you present yourself at work tells a story about who you are and what you want to be.
I always tell my husband "como te ven te tratan", that is "how you look is how people treat you". If he wants to be a director, he has to look like a director. Simple as that.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 11:30 AM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'm a bit resistant to dressing well myself but I would change in a flash if it meant gains for me in something that mattered so I understand where your man is coming from.
There are lots of hurdles.
Change sucks.
Nicer clothes = more laundry hassles.
Nicer clothes = cost more
Nicer clothes = requires learning a new fashion vocabulary - this is a learning and attention tax.
Nicer clothes = more time getting dressed
Nicer clothes = means you are now making a positive statement when you dress. It is no longer the safe "I just threw this on and I don't really care" statement. Now it is "I am actively choosing to dress this way" and that feels like it is a bit more like public speaking/acting in terms of putting yourself out there to be judged (even though you are always judged on this - pretending you are not or that you don't care is mostly denial and avoidance - nobody wants to look slobby).
Nicer clothes = a bit less comfort. Ties and shirt collars are not comfortable. Suit jackets have to be done up and undone and taken on and off...shoes are less comfortable than sandals. Dressier shoes are less comfortable than casual shoes.
But the big issue is probably not knowing how to dress well rather than the actual ordeals of dressing well which can be managed/mitigated. The fear of not knowing how to dress well is probably the big issue.
Get him help from someone who knows how (and like I said before - you are probably not the best source - at the very least because you let him get away dressing so casual up to now and obviously were okay with him like that - add in the relationship landmines of each other feelings and you have a recipe for ill will). Even a consultant might be worthwhile. If I have the cash I will probably do this before I return to an office environment.
Oh and one good source of advice for him is to return to his boss and ask him. After all it was his idea in the first place. Maybe he has specific ideas or suggestions but even then I would suggest exceeding the boss's expectations.
Also, I'd suggest overshooting business casual by a bit. Standard business casual won't get much in the way of positive feedback (and frankly makes men look like human franchises waiting for a logo to stamped on them. He should be out dressing the FedEx guy). Think business casual ++. Nice trousers, good shoes and slightly more elegant shirt takes an ordinary Joe from worker drone to executive material for only about $200 more. You don't need to look like Italian aristocracy but you should try not to look like an Midwestern business drone flying to a widget conference. He should have just a little more verve - not too much because you don't want to be a peacock - but just enough that it communicates a touch more effort. Think of it as an indicator of above average quality workmanship like the feel of an iPad. Wrinkle free clothing suggests you are lazy (efficient). Ironed shirts and proper tailoring communicates that you care through an attention to detail.
Think something like this or this versus this.
I've currently got The Handbook of Style: A mans guide to looking good by Esquire courtesy of the public library on my coffee table and a casual perusal seems to indicate it's a good reference that I'll be reading in more depth.
Of course you'll also have to step up your game too because your man will be looking good to some ladies who probably never noticed him before.
posted by srboisvert at 11:42 AM on June 8, 2013 [10 favorites]
There are lots of hurdles.
Change sucks.
Nicer clothes = more laundry hassles.
Nicer clothes = cost more
Nicer clothes = requires learning a new fashion vocabulary - this is a learning and attention tax.
Nicer clothes = more time getting dressed
Nicer clothes = means you are now making a positive statement when you dress. It is no longer the safe "I just threw this on and I don't really care" statement. Now it is "I am actively choosing to dress this way" and that feels like it is a bit more like public speaking/acting in terms of putting yourself out there to be judged (even though you are always judged on this - pretending you are not or that you don't care is mostly denial and avoidance - nobody wants to look slobby).
Nicer clothes = a bit less comfort. Ties and shirt collars are not comfortable. Suit jackets have to be done up and undone and taken on and off...shoes are less comfortable than sandals. Dressier shoes are less comfortable than casual shoes.
But the big issue is probably not knowing how to dress well rather than the actual ordeals of dressing well which can be managed/mitigated. The fear of not knowing how to dress well is probably the big issue.
Get him help from someone who knows how (and like I said before - you are probably not the best source - at the very least because you let him get away dressing so casual up to now and obviously were okay with him like that - add in the relationship landmines of each other feelings and you have a recipe for ill will). Even a consultant might be worthwhile. If I have the cash I will probably do this before I return to an office environment.
Oh and one good source of advice for him is to return to his boss and ask him. After all it was his idea in the first place. Maybe he has specific ideas or suggestions but even then I would suggest exceeding the boss's expectations.
Also, I'd suggest overshooting business casual by a bit. Standard business casual won't get much in the way of positive feedback (and frankly makes men look like human franchises waiting for a logo to stamped on them. He should be out dressing the FedEx guy). Think business casual ++. Nice trousers, good shoes and slightly more elegant shirt takes an ordinary Joe from worker drone to executive material for only about $200 more. You don't need to look like Italian aristocracy but you should try not to look like an Midwestern business drone flying to a widget conference. He should have just a little more verve - not too much because you don't want to be a peacock - but just enough that it communicates a touch more effort. Think of it as an indicator of above average quality workmanship like the feel of an iPad. Wrinkle free clothing suggests you are lazy (efficient). Ironed shirts and proper tailoring communicates that you care through an attention to detail.
Think something like this or this versus this.
I've currently got The Handbook of Style: A mans guide to looking good by Esquire courtesy of the public library on my coffee table and a casual perusal seems to indicate it's a good reference that I'll be reading in more depth.
Of course you'll also have to step up your game too because your man will be looking good to some ladies who probably never noticed him before.
posted by srboisvert at 11:42 AM on June 8, 2013 [10 favorites]
Get him into a pair of slacks. He'll notice very quickly that they are *way* more comfortable than cargos or jeans.
posted by colin_l at 11:46 AM on June 8, 2013
posted by colin_l at 11:46 AM on June 8, 2013
So your husband seems like the kind of guy who dresses casual because THE MAN dresses up and he's still fighting THE MAN, you know? That's the impression I get. But here's the thing, if you want to be The Man--and if you're moving to a directorship, or wanting to, you're no longer the proletariat, you know?--you have to play by his rules. I agree with him completely that in a just world we'd all be judged by our work product and the content of our character, however, I also know that if my lawyer rolled up to court in flip flops and cargo shorts, I'd be hiring a new lawyer because even if he was a GOD among lawyers he'd probably get tossed out of court for wasting the judge's time.
In terms of how to do it, whether you rip the Band-Aid off or try to soft touch it, here's the thing I think a lot of guys need to know, especially if they haven't dressed like an adult before (and I include myself because it took me a while to learn): If the only thing you remember about picking out nice clothes is your mom dragging you to the mall and making you try on all kinds of awful things and otherwise turning shopping into this big awful thing you want to avoid at all costs...it doesn't have to be that way if you don't want it to be, however, you have to put some effort in over time.
The problem with so many guys (and some women, for the sake of it) that I know is they leave it until it becomes A Crisis. Like, it's not just "hey I need some shirts", it's "I NEED A NEW SHIRT BY TOMORROW OR I'M GOING TO GET FIRED" and then it becomes a frantic scramble to the mall and you're already anxious and you're frantically throwing stuff on and none of it seems to fit but you have to pick one of them because IT'S AN EMERGENCY and so you wind up with something you don't like and/or doesn't fit and over time your closet fills up full of nice things you don't like wearing but you never actually make the effort to go out and change that because shopping has turned into A Terrible Thing with all this baggage attached to it and you want to put it off as long as possible, so the cycle repeats.
What people who like dressing up do is--I'm going to lapse into baseball metaphor here--once they've got their wardrobe established, they add things over time. So you need, say, 5 Starting Pants and 5 Starting Shirts for every day workwear, then you need to build out your bullpen with some Reliever-type clothes that maybe you don't want to wear every week, but you add every now and then. Then you can flesh it out with Specialist pieces like, I dunno, a tux and a job interview suit, and then you have all these tools you can work with and combine and hey presto, you have a grownup wardrobe. And then what they do is they add things here and there, like picking up free agents or reclamation prospects the way a sports team would, over time. For example, when I'm out and about and close to it, I'll stop in my favorite store even though I don't NEED anything to peruse the sale racks. Or I'm signed up for sales newsletters from the sites I order from and I peruse what's on sale even if I don't strictly speaking NEED anything. I bought a great sportjacket for like $50 on super-duper markdown once, for example, that I probably wouldn't have gotten if I'd been in HOLY SHIT I'M GOING TO A CONFERENCE AND THEY EXPECT ME TO DRESS LIKE AN ADULT mode, you know? And now I wear it to everything.
But you have to do some legwork up front, and do it in small chunks. First you need to figure out your sizes. If he's moving into fitted stuff like dressy shirts, it's totally worth going to a tailor and paying them a few bucks to have his measurements taken. Then you need to figure out which stores carry things that fit you well and that you like and, yes, that does mean trying things on. However, if your weight doesn't fluctuate much, that means a weekend of trying things on can mean you're done or, honestly, just find places with good return policies and buy in whatever sizes you think might work and just return whatever doesn't fit. I can fluctuate between two sizes depending on who makes the clothes, so I order a set of whatever in each size and then take whichever size doesn't work back. All of these are small, manageable tasks IF you don't put off your shopping until frantic MUST BUY CLOTHES time.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:50 AM on June 8, 2013 [9 favorites]
In terms of how to do it, whether you rip the Band-Aid off or try to soft touch it, here's the thing I think a lot of guys need to know, especially if they haven't dressed like an adult before (and I include myself because it took me a while to learn): If the only thing you remember about picking out nice clothes is your mom dragging you to the mall and making you try on all kinds of awful things and otherwise turning shopping into this big awful thing you want to avoid at all costs...it doesn't have to be that way if you don't want it to be, however, you have to put some effort in over time.
The problem with so many guys (and some women, for the sake of it) that I know is they leave it until it becomes A Crisis. Like, it's not just "hey I need some shirts", it's "I NEED A NEW SHIRT BY TOMORROW OR I'M GOING TO GET FIRED" and then it becomes a frantic scramble to the mall and you're already anxious and you're frantically throwing stuff on and none of it seems to fit but you have to pick one of them because IT'S AN EMERGENCY and so you wind up with something you don't like and/or doesn't fit and over time your closet fills up full of nice things you don't like wearing but you never actually make the effort to go out and change that because shopping has turned into A Terrible Thing with all this baggage attached to it and you want to put it off as long as possible, so the cycle repeats.
What people who like dressing up do is--I'm going to lapse into baseball metaphor here--once they've got their wardrobe established, they add things over time. So you need, say, 5 Starting Pants and 5 Starting Shirts for every day workwear, then you need to build out your bullpen with some Reliever-type clothes that maybe you don't want to wear every week, but you add every now and then. Then you can flesh it out with Specialist pieces like, I dunno, a tux and a job interview suit, and then you have all these tools you can work with and combine and hey presto, you have a grownup wardrobe. And then what they do is they add things here and there, like picking up free agents or reclamation prospects the way a sports team would, over time. For example, when I'm out and about and close to it, I'll stop in my favorite store even though I don't NEED anything to peruse the sale racks. Or I'm signed up for sales newsletters from the sites I order from and I peruse what's on sale even if I don't strictly speaking NEED anything. I bought a great sportjacket for like $50 on super-duper markdown once, for example, that I probably wouldn't have gotten if I'd been in HOLY SHIT I'M GOING TO A CONFERENCE AND THEY EXPECT ME TO DRESS LIKE AN ADULT mode, you know? And now I wear it to everything.
But you have to do some legwork up front, and do it in small chunks. First you need to figure out your sizes. If he's moving into fitted stuff like dressy shirts, it's totally worth going to a tailor and paying them a few bucks to have his measurements taken. Then you need to figure out which stores carry things that fit you well and that you like and, yes, that does mean trying things on. However, if your weight doesn't fluctuate much, that means a weekend of trying things on can mean you're done or, honestly, just find places with good return policies and buy in whatever sizes you think might work and just return whatever doesn't fit. I can fluctuate between two sizes depending on who makes the clothes, so I order a set of whatever in each size and then take whichever size doesn't work back. All of these are small, manageable tasks IF you don't put off your shopping until frantic MUST BUY CLOTHES time.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 11:50 AM on June 8, 2013 [9 favorites]
Once you get out of the cubes, the rule of law is as plain and simple as his very kind boss spelled it out: if you want the role, you put on the costume and you act the part.
When you meet someone for business you have 0.2 seconds to make an impression and 90% of that is what you are wearing and how you carry it. The other 10% is the expression on your face.
It's all an act. We put on business clothes and a business face so that we can radiate concepts like "you can trust me" "I am competent" "I am confident" "I play well with others" and other important business concepts.
Wearing crappy clothes while in an otherwise successful position says none of those things in the first 0.2 seconds; in fact it says "I don't care about my appearance" "I don't care about what others think" "I think I am special" "I might be related to the business owner" "I can't be trusted to deliver professional work because I am not myself professional".
Maybe those things aren't true. But it doesn't matter, you've already started off on the wrong foot; instead of having people being modestly confident in you at the start of a meeting because you are dressed properly and carrying it well, it's the opposite: you have an enormous hill to climb: you look like hell, you look like you don't give a shit, now you have to actually try and prove yourself with words and actions and maybe a few successful projects what 0.2 seconds in a damn fine suit would have done. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I mean, it's the function of small talk. Lots of people hate small talk. But being able to carry off small talk is a metasignalling process that means "I am modestly intelligent, I can string words together, I am probably not homicidal, I am interested in many of the same things you are, like the weather, and we are all just monkeys hanging out here in the monkey zoo having a good time doing monkey stuff."
Yeah, on one level, small talk is bullshit. But at the next level up, it's not bullshit, it's essential signalling.
And it's the same thing with business attire. It's metacontextual information that you, and by extension your colleagues and your business, are worth dealing with.
And all he has to do is put on a decent suit and wear it well.
It will be the best money he will spend in his career.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:52 AM on June 8, 2013 [8 favorites]
When you meet someone for business you have 0.2 seconds to make an impression and 90% of that is what you are wearing and how you carry it. The other 10% is the expression on your face.
It's all an act. We put on business clothes and a business face so that we can radiate concepts like "you can trust me" "I am competent" "I am confident" "I play well with others" and other important business concepts.
Wearing crappy clothes while in an otherwise successful position says none of those things in the first 0.2 seconds; in fact it says "I don't care about my appearance" "I don't care about what others think" "I think I am special" "I might be related to the business owner" "I can't be trusted to deliver professional work because I am not myself professional".
Maybe those things aren't true. But it doesn't matter, you've already started off on the wrong foot; instead of having people being modestly confident in you at the start of a meeting because you are dressed properly and carrying it well, it's the opposite: you have an enormous hill to climb: you look like hell, you look like you don't give a shit, now you have to actually try and prove yourself with words and actions and maybe a few successful projects what 0.2 seconds in a damn fine suit would have done. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I mean, it's the function of small talk. Lots of people hate small talk. But being able to carry off small talk is a metasignalling process that means "I am modestly intelligent, I can string words together, I am probably not homicidal, I am interested in many of the same things you are, like the weather, and we are all just monkeys hanging out here in the monkey zoo having a good time doing monkey stuff."
Yeah, on one level, small talk is bullshit. But at the next level up, it's not bullshit, it's essential signalling.
And it's the same thing with business attire. It's metacontextual information that you, and by extension your colleagues and your business, are worth dealing with.
And all he has to do is put on a decent suit and wear it well.
It will be the best money he will spend in his career.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:52 AM on June 8, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh, and when he goes to buy a new wardrobe, and he should do that, he should not wear it to the office for two weeks. Put all those clothes on at home and wear them around the house and on errands. Wear them constantly, except for work.
You have to practice wearing them, so you can show up one Monday morning looking like fucking Superman having just stood up straight and taken off the dorky glasses.
HOLY SHIT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU? "I grew up."
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:55 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
You have to practice wearing them, so you can show up one Monday morning looking like fucking Superman having just stood up straight and taken off the dorky glasses.
HOLY SHIT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU? "I grew up."
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:55 AM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hit Post too soon.
As for "comfort", honestly? Most of the time, your nice stuff should be more comfortable than t-shirt and jeans, but you have to pay for that. Like if you're buying a Wal-Mart E-Z-Fit dress shirt that's 100% polyester, of course it's going to be hot and scratchy and not fit right and uncomfortable. I wear wool suits that weren't stupidly expensive, but fit me nicely (tailoring helps) and are much cooler temperature-wise than a lot of people think when they hear "wool suit", but that's because they buy off the rack all-polyester suits that are super cheap and never get them fitted and then wonder why they're hot and uncomfortable. It's worth jumping up a tier or two until you get into nicer stuff because I've found the more you pay, the more comfortable and better fitting things are (and there's a point where diminishing returns kick in, where that is is up to your budget). I was one of those people that scoffed at buying anything above, like, Target quality for YEARS and then I pulled on my first designer shirt and it was like oh, that's why people pay for this. This is awesome. Clothes don't have to be hot, scratchy, and uncomfortable. Why wasn't I informed sooner?!
Oh, and tailoring. I read something on here I think that that's the secret to how people on those makeover shows and celebrities look great, even in stuff like t-shirt and jeans. Everything gets tailored, everything fits right, and everything is personally fitted to you. That's the secret. And it's worth investing in if you're buying a decent wardrobe. Not for the jeans you wear to clean out the gutters, obviously, but the suit and pants you wear to a client dinner? Worth doing.
So, honestly, if you guys have the budget, take him somewhere like Nordstrom where he can get a personal shopper and they can just go to town. And then you leave him to it, because a lot of guys like this will get all YOU'RE TRYING TO CHANGE WHO I AM AS A PERSON DON'T YOU LOVE ME?! as a way of getting away from the issue, which is dude, you look like a scrub.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:06 PM on June 8, 2013 [7 favorites]
As for "comfort", honestly? Most of the time, your nice stuff should be more comfortable than t-shirt and jeans, but you have to pay for that. Like if you're buying a Wal-Mart E-Z-Fit dress shirt that's 100% polyester, of course it's going to be hot and scratchy and not fit right and uncomfortable. I wear wool suits that weren't stupidly expensive, but fit me nicely (tailoring helps) and are much cooler temperature-wise than a lot of people think when they hear "wool suit", but that's because they buy off the rack all-polyester suits that are super cheap and never get them fitted and then wonder why they're hot and uncomfortable. It's worth jumping up a tier or two until you get into nicer stuff because I've found the more you pay, the more comfortable and better fitting things are (and there's a point where diminishing returns kick in, where that is is up to your budget). I was one of those people that scoffed at buying anything above, like, Target quality for YEARS and then I pulled on my first designer shirt and it was like oh, that's why people pay for this. This is awesome. Clothes don't have to be hot, scratchy, and uncomfortable. Why wasn't I informed sooner?!
Oh, and tailoring. I read something on here I think that that's the secret to how people on those makeover shows and celebrities look great, even in stuff like t-shirt and jeans. Everything gets tailored, everything fits right, and everything is personally fitted to you. That's the secret. And it's worth investing in if you're buying a decent wardrobe. Not for the jeans you wear to clean out the gutters, obviously, but the suit and pants you wear to a client dinner? Worth doing.
So, honestly, if you guys have the budget, take him somewhere like Nordstrom where he can get a personal shopper and they can just go to town. And then you leave him to it, because a lot of guys like this will get all YOU'RE TRYING TO CHANGE WHO I AM AS A PERSON DON'T YOU LOVE ME?! as a way of getting away from the issue, which is dude, you look like a scrub.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 12:06 PM on June 8, 2013 [7 favorites]
Are looks important? The answer is obvious. As you mentioned, he dresses like a kid. His boss has called him on it. Industry leaders are not called suits because they wear ripped T shirts. Your husband is in his late thirties - 40 is just around the bend. Could his reaction to his boss's criticism of his clothing have a root in his fear of growing old?
posted by Cranberry at 12:33 PM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Cranberry at 12:33 PM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
One way to approach this could be flattery. I was once in a somewhat similar sartorial position to your husband, and although it wasn't important for work, my fiancee (now wife) clearly wanted me to dress a little more nicely. Instead of listing reasons why I should do so, she bought a couple of things for me, and then every time I wore them told me how nice I looked in them. And that made me want to wear them more often, but I couldn't just keep wearing the same things, so I had to get more, and... you see where this is going.
posted by number9dream at 12:48 PM on June 8, 2013
posted by number9dream at 12:48 PM on June 8, 2013
My husband needed to do this, but managed to get away with just wearing khakis or corduroys and these shoes, which "read" as black if you don't look too closely (which most people don't.) As for shirts, he wears button downs, either long or short sleeve, and sometimes wears ties (including funky ones), but not all the time. He wears shirts in a variety of colors, and sometimes madras types. (Shirt example). We make life easier by taking the shirts to the cleaners, but only do light starch on the shirts. This is really not that drastic a change for your husband, if he tries it this way (it just means dropping ripped anything, t-shirts, cargo pants, and sneakers that are too obviously sneakers).
Also, SMPA is right about this, and he needs to consider it seriously: Seriously, this is a classic "you can be right or you can win" scenario.
And Etrigan is also right: "Sweetie, I love you just the way you are, but your boss has now told you what you need to do to get ahead. It would be foolish of you not to do that. You're not foolish, even if they are."
posted by gudrun at 1:29 PM on June 8, 2013
Also, SMPA is right about this, and he needs to consider it seriously: Seriously, this is a classic "you can be right or you can win" scenario.
And Etrigan is also right: "Sweetie, I love you just the way you are, but your boss has now told you what you need to do to get ahead. It would be foolish of you not to do that. You're not foolish, even if they are."
posted by gudrun at 1:29 PM on June 8, 2013
This thread has been a wakeup call for me as, possibly, the girl version of your guy. Just the other day I was bragging about having the kind of job where I can wear a Yoda tee, boardshorts and sandals to my annual evaluation and salary discussion. On the other hand, it's not two weeks ago that I was complaining that the head of my organisation asked me in front of visiting political representatives if I missed working as X (where X is my two-promotions ago job). So, yeah, a penny just dropped and I am going to go buy myself some new dudes.
I know a little of how to dress slightly sharper, I am just going to switch so my "meeting clothes" are more standard operating procedure. If your dude is also a geek from the floor made good, well, we've been cut a lot of slack for a long time, but are kinda being expected to step up our game these days. There are ways to make it a little more fun though, there's subtle geek stuff for wearing. This Hand of The King tiepin is, for example, insanely good. Maybe google some fashionable nerds, villains do have a slight edge I must admit. Even Forbes is in on the action.
posted by Iteki at 2:24 PM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
I know a little of how to dress slightly sharper, I am just going to switch so my "meeting clothes" are more standard operating procedure. If your dude is also a geek from the floor made good, well, we've been cut a lot of slack for a long time, but are kinda being expected to step up our game these days. There are ways to make it a little more fun though, there's subtle geek stuff for wearing. This Hand of The King tiepin is, for example, insanely good. Maybe google some fashionable nerds, villains do have a slight edge I must admit. Even Forbes is in on the action.
posted by Iteki at 2:24 PM on June 8, 2013 [6 favorites]
I think seanmpuckett mentioned something your husband needs to get about what people get from him now: "I am special"
I've worked at several places where there's that one guy. The senior-most technician is X negative thing, but it's put up with because he's a genius at what he does. Nobody thinks we should get rid of him. But everyone can't help but think, man, I wish we could have that guy, but without X. X could be dress, it could be that he's the grumpy curmudgeon type, it could be he has a late-for-work problem, whatever. He's special because he does his thing so well.
Here's the thing, though, when you get promoted, you don't do that thing you're so good at anymore. Now you're learning a new thing and chances are you're going to go through a phase where you kind of suck at it. So now this guy's not "X, but a genius." He's just X, and not all that useful right now anyway. Also, he's going to come into contact with some people higher up in the food chain who don't really know him that well and have no idea that he's a former genius technician. He will just be the new director, who's X [frowny face].
I know I'm not putting myself in the position of recommending him for that, because it's going to reflect on my judgment and make me look bad. I like to handle all the "making me look bad" myself, thanks.
posted by ctmf at 2:25 PM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
I've worked at several places where there's that one guy. The senior-most technician is X negative thing, but it's put up with because he's a genius at what he does. Nobody thinks we should get rid of him. But everyone can't help but think, man, I wish we could have that guy, but without X. X could be dress, it could be that he's the grumpy curmudgeon type, it could be he has a late-for-work problem, whatever. He's special because he does his thing so well.
Here's the thing, though, when you get promoted, you don't do that thing you're so good at anymore. Now you're learning a new thing and chances are you're going to go through a phase where you kind of suck at it. So now this guy's not "X, but a genius." He's just X, and not all that useful right now anyway. Also, he's going to come into contact with some people higher up in the food chain who don't really know him that well and have no idea that he's a former genius technician. He will just be the new director, who's X [frowny face].
I know I'm not putting myself in the position of recommending him for that, because it's going to reflect on my judgment and make me look bad. I like to handle all the "making me look bad" myself, thanks.
posted by ctmf at 2:25 PM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Oh God, I was *married* to your husband, and I never did dislodge him from his ripped t-shirts and cargo shorts --- so you know, take my advice with a grain of salt.
But, I felt like coaxing and nagging and shopping for my husband was the wrong answer, because it perpetuated the problem. It turned me into The Man, or his mom, which neatly played into him wanting to play rebellious teenager. Yuck, no fun for either of us. I didn't do the "you're so sexy in that suit" thing either, because it felt manipulative and patronizing.
I did have some success with encouraging him to express his individuality through slightly better, but still iconoclastic, clothes. He would not wear chinos and polos, or anything he thought of as douchey or fratty or jockish. But he was willing to wear some work-appropriate clothes, sometimes, as long as they had a little edge -- like, Ben Sherman or Doc Martens or button-downs with bold purple stripes or other colours he particularly liked. So, you might try encouraging your husband to get interested in expressing his individuality through clothing in some way other than just not giving a shit. You know?
But honestly, if your husband is like mine was, this is a very very tough problem. You might try (like others have said here) framing this to him as his boss doing him a favour. Maybe he can try to channel his resentment towards the clients, or his boss's boss, or "society," or something. But if he can't find a way to enjoy dressing better, he will probably always foot-drag and be resentful and look for excuses to revert. Really, this needs to come from him. You might do him a favour by just being utterly honest, telling him you agree with his boss, and that he has to decide what he wants to do.
posted by Susan PG at 3:04 PM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
But, I felt like coaxing and nagging and shopping for my husband was the wrong answer, because it perpetuated the problem. It turned me into The Man, or his mom, which neatly played into him wanting to play rebellious teenager. Yuck, no fun for either of us. I didn't do the "you're so sexy in that suit" thing either, because it felt manipulative and patronizing.
I did have some success with encouraging him to express his individuality through slightly better, but still iconoclastic, clothes. He would not wear chinos and polos, or anything he thought of as douchey or fratty or jockish. But he was willing to wear some work-appropriate clothes, sometimes, as long as they had a little edge -- like, Ben Sherman or Doc Martens or button-downs with bold purple stripes or other colours he particularly liked. So, you might try encouraging your husband to get interested in expressing his individuality through clothing in some way other than just not giving a shit. You know?
But honestly, if your husband is like mine was, this is a very very tough problem. You might try (like others have said here) framing this to him as his boss doing him a favour. Maybe he can try to channel his resentment towards the clients, or his boss's boss, or "society," or something. But if he can't find a way to enjoy dressing better, he will probably always foot-drag and be resentful and look for excuses to revert. Really, this needs to come from him. You might do him a favour by just being utterly honest, telling him you agree with his boss, and that he has to decide what he wants to do.
posted by Susan PG at 3:04 PM on June 8, 2013 [1 favorite]
This only works if he buys into it. It doesn't matter if he agrees with the idea, it doesn't matter if he thinks it is stupid that he's being evaluated on how he dresses as much as what he does - he has to buy into the idea that he is constantly being evaluated by people on the way he presents himself in addition to what he wears.
If you were asking this question absent the boss's input: I recommend dressing like the position you want (or, dressing the way your boss's level of people do).
But since you've told us his boss has actually coached him on this: beyond the question of promotion and dress standards, not listening and adopting the approach his boss has suggested could actually HURT him in his current position (to say nothing of promotion) because it will be a pretty clear statement to his boss that he has heard his boss's coaching and intends to ignore it.
I'd suggest bringing that up. If I were his boss, and made a similar suggestion to an otherwise high-performing employee, if the employee chose to ignore my advice I would see that as a red flag that there might be more issues with the employee than simply his choice of dress.
posted by arnicae at 3:24 PM on June 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
If you were asking this question absent the boss's input: I recommend dressing like the position you want (or, dressing the way your boss's level of people do).
But since you've told us his boss has actually coached him on this: beyond the question of promotion and dress standards, not listening and adopting the approach his boss has suggested could actually HURT him in his current position (to say nothing of promotion) because it will be a pretty clear statement to his boss that he has heard his boss's coaching and intends to ignore it.
I'd suggest bringing that up. If I were his boss, and made a similar suggestion to an otherwise high-performing employee, if the employee chose to ignore my advice I would see that as a red flag that there might be more issues with the employee than simply his choice of dress.
posted by arnicae at 3:24 PM on June 8, 2013 [5 favorites]
Oh, and on ways to make it work - Mr. Arnicae wore his middle-school ripped t-shirts and cotton athletic shorts EVERYWHERE except work for the first four years we were together.
Solution? I announced one year that clothing with rips in it would be thrown away unless they were mended. I timed my announcement with a day that he had (unknowingly) worn a t-shirt with a substantial hole on the back, which he was slightly embarrassed by when I pointed it out. Since then, whenever I run into something with a hole in it, I put it in the rag drawer. Probably 1/10 of the time, it is rescued and mended by Mr. Arnicae. Solution, he no longer wears garments with holes in them.
On the cotton athletic shorts, I started bringing home a variety of nicer shorts. The deal was, I'd shop for them and return the rejects, but he had to try them on. Eventually one of the pairs of chino-style shorts that I brought home (from Target, believe it or not) was judged to be as comfortable as the cotton athletic shorts. He hasn't worn the cotton athletic shorts once since, they just sit in his drawer. He wears the chino shorts every day, and now has 5 pairs. It was just a question of finding the right style, brand and size to make him comfortable.
posted by arnicae at 3:30 PM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
Solution? I announced one year that clothing with rips in it would be thrown away unless they were mended. I timed my announcement with a day that he had (unknowingly) worn a t-shirt with a substantial hole on the back, which he was slightly embarrassed by when I pointed it out. Since then, whenever I run into something with a hole in it, I put it in the rag drawer. Probably 1/10 of the time, it is rescued and mended by Mr. Arnicae. Solution, he no longer wears garments with holes in them.
On the cotton athletic shorts, I started bringing home a variety of nicer shorts. The deal was, I'd shop for them and return the rejects, but he had to try them on. Eventually one of the pairs of chino-style shorts that I brought home (from Target, believe it or not) was judged to be as comfortable as the cotton athletic shorts. He hasn't worn the cotton athletic shorts once since, they just sit in his drawer. He wears the chino shorts every day, and now has 5 pairs. It was just a question of finding the right style, brand and size to make him comfortable.
posted by arnicae at 3:30 PM on June 8, 2013 [2 favorites]
I agree with polly_dactyl who pointed out that if he's reached his late 30s and is still dressing this way, there is probably some underlying issue that you or he needs to resolve first.
I'm kind of a female version of him - luckily in academia so I can usually get away with jeans and t-shirts (though this thread is making me reevaluate a bit). When asked about why I dress this way I usually say I prefer to let my work speak for itself, or I find dressy clothing uncomfortable; and though both of these things are true, it's not the real reason. The real reason is that wearing almost anything that is acceptably dressy for a woman feels unnervingly like I'm in drag; I feel awful, like a costume version of myself. I think there is probably some set of professional-looking suitably tailored button-down shirts, doc martens, and nice pants that I could wear without feeling this way, but I haven't the faintest clue how to go shopping for them or what to look for or how to make it look decent. It all seems so overwhelming and difficult so I just mentally throw my hands in the air and figure the status quo isn't that bad.
I'm not saying your husband's issue is the same as mine -- it probably isn't -- but there probably is something, and you and/or he may need to try to get to the bottom of it to get any lasting change.
posted by forza at 3:40 PM on June 8, 2013 [8 favorites]
I'm kind of a female version of him - luckily in academia so I can usually get away with jeans and t-shirts (though this thread is making me reevaluate a bit). When asked about why I dress this way I usually say I prefer to let my work speak for itself, or I find dressy clothing uncomfortable; and though both of these things are true, it's not the real reason. The real reason is that wearing almost anything that is acceptably dressy for a woman feels unnervingly like I'm in drag; I feel awful, like a costume version of myself. I think there is probably some set of professional-looking suitably tailored button-down shirts, doc martens, and nice pants that I could wear without feeling this way, but I haven't the faintest clue how to go shopping for them or what to look for or how to make it look decent. It all seems so overwhelming and difficult so I just mentally throw my hands in the air and figure the status quo isn't that bad.
I'm not saying your husband's issue is the same as mine -- it probably isn't -- but there probably is something, and you and/or he may need to try to get to the bottom of it to get any lasting change.
posted by forza at 3:40 PM on June 8, 2013 [8 favorites]
arnicae brings up a good point. Now that the boss has suggested something, he HAS to try it, at least for a while. Not trying it says one of two things: he thinks the boss gave him worthless advice, or he wasn't serious when he asked for advice in the first place. Neither thing is that great for the boss to think.
And if he tries it and then stops later, he's going to have to be prepared to say to the boss (because it will come up again, now that it's explicitly out there,) hey, I tried it and it's just not me. Which the boss will translate in his head as "being a director is just not me."
Sometimes it better not asking questions you don't want the answer to.
posted by ctmf at 3:54 PM on June 8, 2013
And if he tries it and then stops later, he's going to have to be prepared to say to the boss (because it will come up again, now that it's explicitly out there,) hey, I tried it and it's just not me. Which the boss will translate in his head as "being a director is just not me."
Sometimes it better not asking questions you don't want the answer to.
posted by ctmf at 3:54 PM on June 8, 2013
Sweetie, you aske4d your boss what you needed to do, and he said to dress better. I'm concerned that not following his advice could go badly. Your current shoes are pretty worn out, and so are number of your tshirts. I'd like to buy you some new tshirts to replace them, and I'd like you to come with me and buy new shoes.
If you can get him to go shopping and accept any new clothes, compliment him. That color looks good on you. You look good today. I like the way your butt looks in those jeans. Even if he doesn't change his style, he should wear clothing that is in good shape (no rips or stains, ever, and no serious wear) and that fits properly, especially shoes. If you can talk to him and get him to try 1 new pair of nicer pants and 1 nicer shirt, maybe a company-logo-ed polo, he can try it and see if it still feels comfortable, and he'll at least be visibly showing the boss that he listened. If you do the laundry, take the time to smooth tshirts, and hang cloth shirts, and maybe iron those. Maybe the ripped tees and rattiest shorts could get stalled in the laundry basket?
I'd also commiserate with him that the company isn't as focused on his work as he'd like. Maybe also a subscription to a men's magazine that has a style section would inspire him.
posted by theora55 at 4:04 PM on June 8, 2013
If you can get him to go shopping and accept any new clothes, compliment him. That color looks good on you. You look good today. I like the way your butt looks in those jeans. Even if he doesn't change his style, he should wear clothing that is in good shape (no rips or stains, ever, and no serious wear) and that fits properly, especially shoes. If you can talk to him and get him to try 1 new pair of nicer pants and 1 nicer shirt, maybe a company-logo-ed polo, he can try it and see if it still feels comfortable, and he'll at least be visibly showing the boss that he listened. If you do the laundry, take the time to smooth tshirts, and hang cloth shirts, and maybe iron those. Maybe the ripped tees and rattiest shorts could get stalled in the laundry basket?
I'd also commiserate with him that the company isn't as focused on his work as he'd like. Maybe also a subscription to a men's magazine that has a style section would inspire him.
posted by theora55 at 4:04 PM on June 8, 2013
Hell yeah, looks are important. Presentation is important. You don't give a wonderful birthday gift taped up in a crappy Wal*Mart bag. You don't serve a sublime gourmet dinner on paper plates and red Solo cups.
Putting effort into his presentation will enhance how much people appreciate his skills. It shows attention to all details, not just the ones he thinks are important.
His work can't speak for itself if his clothes speak louder before people even get a chance to consider his work.
posted by cadge at 4:06 PM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Putting effort into his presentation will enhance how much people appreciate his skills. It shows attention to all details, not just the ones he thinks are important.
His work can't speak for itself if his clothes speak louder before people even get a chance to consider his work.
posted by cadge at 4:06 PM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
I make less than I could be making because the idea of having to dress up every single day (and for me "dress up" = wearing anything that is not jeans/tshirts and flipflops) makes me want to cry. Seriously, I want to throw myself on the floor and sob at the prospect of having to iron something. But the key here is I know that's why I'm not advancing in my career and if someone told me "you'd be an awesome X if only you dressed more professionally" I would thank them for their honest advice. Because it is valuable advice, even if I'm not in a place mentally where I can handle it.
posted by crankylex at 5:23 PM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by crankylex at 5:23 PM on June 8, 2013 [3 favorites]
Boss suggested he would have a better time getting ahead in the company if he dressed for success. Husband was offended that his work would be over-looked based on the way he dresses
If his work wasn't good, there's no way that dressing better would cause it to be overlooked.
In engineering, there's the concept of constraints. A constraint is a restriction on the degree of freedom you have in providing a solution. Boss has pointed out that husband's chosen method of avoiding violation of public decency laws and social norms is acting as a constraint to leveling up in his career.
Boss has taken notice that husband's work is good enough to achieve next level, and pointing out that an additional requirement of reaching the next level is to add some skill points in costuming as well. Husband is fortunate that boss has chosen to take on the role of Wise Old Master and inform him of the secret hidden requirements for next level.
Modify explanation as needed based on husbands interests.
posted by yohko at 6:54 PM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
If his work wasn't good, there's no way that dressing better would cause it to be overlooked.
In engineering, there's the concept of constraints. A constraint is a restriction on the degree of freedom you have in providing a solution. Boss has pointed out that husband's chosen method of avoiding violation of public decency laws and social norms is acting as a constraint to leveling up in his career.
Boss has taken notice that husband's work is good enough to achieve next level, and pointing out that an additional requirement of reaching the next level is to add some skill points in costuming as well. Husband is fortunate that boss has chosen to take on the role of Wise Old Master and inform him of the secret hidden requirements for next level.
Modify explanation as needed based on husbands interests.
posted by yohko at 6:54 PM on June 8, 2013 [4 favorites]
Lots of good ideas up above. My very geeky husband could never see why he had to dress more nicely for work whenever I tried to buy him nicer clothes, until I explained to him that I loved him whatever he wore, but I just wanted other people to see him how I did ie as someone that not only could do the job but looked like he could do the job. I also had to overcome a lot of resistance as he didn't feel he deserved nicer clothes.
Also you might want to work on finding a compromise, my husband like t-shirts and jeans so we went less walmart jeans and tshirts with computer game logos on the front and more well fitting jeans with, t shirts that actually fit his weirdly shaped frame and a nice shirt open over the top. Keeping his clothes the same sort of thing he likes to wear but in better quality and finish and up to date styles might be a good way to get him at least started. My husband ended up liking his "new" look but it took him nervously trying a few outfits and getting good reactions from family, friends and workmates for him to really own the new look.
posted by wwax at 7:21 PM on June 8, 2013
Also you might want to work on finding a compromise, my husband like t-shirts and jeans so we went less walmart jeans and tshirts with computer game logos on the front and more well fitting jeans with, t shirts that actually fit his weirdly shaped frame and a nice shirt open over the top. Keeping his clothes the same sort of thing he likes to wear but in better quality and finish and up to date styles might be a good way to get him at least started. My husband ended up liking his "new" look but it took him nervously trying a few outfits and getting good reactions from family, friends and workmates for him to really own the new look.
posted by wwax at 7:21 PM on June 8, 2013
I am a person of roughly average handsomeness. My father is a very nice man and was and is an excellent father, but he is one of the worst dressed people I have ever met and so I didn't have a very strong male role model in that regard. About five years ago, I decided to stop dressing like a teenager, just kind of to try it out and play at adulthood. Do you know what happened? Women started to notice me sometimes! Strangers on the street or in line at the coffee shop or on the bus. I would catch them looking at me, being attracted to me. It had never happened before, to the extent that it took me a little while to realize what it was-I married my highschool sweetheart and have spent basically no time being single as an adult person. Even happily coupled, I appreciate that attention. I suspect that I am not alone in this regard.
Let me stress this again, this is directed right at you, teenager-dressing-heterosexual-men, (ideally some of the ones who work in my office): when I was dressing like a teenager, I NEVER caught women checking me out. Since I stopped dressing like a teenager, I SOMETIMES catch women checking me out.
I don't think that this suggests any particular action for you, OP, but in an area where locating effective motivation can be difficult, that's what motivated me.
posted by Kwine at 12:07 AM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Let me stress this again, this is directed right at you, teenager-dressing-heterosexual-men, (ideally some of the ones who work in my office): when I was dressing like a teenager, I NEVER caught women checking me out. Since I stopped dressing like a teenager, I SOMETIMES catch women checking me out.
I don't think that this suggests any particular action for you, OP, but in an area where locating effective motivation can be difficult, that's what motivated me.
posted by Kwine at 12:07 AM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think it's really about finding the right metaphor to help it make sense to him. For me, the metaphor of acting a part and putting on an appropriate costume really makes sense. But at least part of my work involves people interacting with me, having never seen me before ever, so if I want them to react to me a certain way, I need to put on the costume that gives them the cues of how to respond. (This is easy to see when watching movies: good guys wear white, hookers wear scanty clothing, rebels wear leather jackets and jeans - the initial visual impression is informed a lot by appearance.) Yes, a lot of these are stereotypes. But just because stereotypes are frequently wrong/unfair/inaccurate doesn't make them less powerful.
To continue with the acting metaphor, actors in rehearsal don't wear special clothes usually. They just wear whatever. However, when they are getting close to performance time, they do a dress rehearsal. Partly of course this is to check that costumes fit, mechanics work (eg full skirt doesn't knock over scenery). But it also has this kind of magical effect: you dress like your character and you feel more like your character. The princess dress makes you feel like a princess. The black mask and pirate shirt make you feel like a debonair villain. And so on.
Your husband sounds like he works with people who know him pretty well and doesn't often have to interact with strangers. But the costume he is wearing still says "lazy college student". His audience has a hard time seeing past the "lazy college student" costume. Yes, the work should speak for itself. But his good work would be even more noticeable if it didn't have to overcome the lazy college student image.
The acting metaphor might not work for your husband. There are other metaphors to pick (I also like yohko's suggestion about the levelling up after investing some skill points in costume, but I would!) You know your husband better than we do, OP, think about what kind of things would appeal to him. Or try multiple things.
But it does boil down to this (as others have said): his boss has kindly told him what he can do to move up. It's not a really hard thing to do, though it is awkward at first and requires some adjustment. It will become routine pretty easily, and he can always wear whatever he wants to at home. He is a grown-up and needs to suck it up, or make the decision that being taken seriously at work is less important than dressing like a lazy college student.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:10 AM on June 9, 2013
To continue with the acting metaphor, actors in rehearsal don't wear special clothes usually. They just wear whatever. However, when they are getting close to performance time, they do a dress rehearsal. Partly of course this is to check that costumes fit, mechanics work (eg full skirt doesn't knock over scenery). But it also has this kind of magical effect: you dress like your character and you feel more like your character. The princess dress makes you feel like a princess. The black mask and pirate shirt make you feel like a debonair villain. And so on.
Your husband sounds like he works with people who know him pretty well and doesn't often have to interact with strangers. But the costume he is wearing still says "lazy college student". His audience has a hard time seeing past the "lazy college student" costume. Yes, the work should speak for itself. But his good work would be even more noticeable if it didn't have to overcome the lazy college student image.
The acting metaphor might not work for your husband. There are other metaphors to pick (I also like yohko's suggestion about the levelling up after investing some skill points in costume, but I would!) You know your husband better than we do, OP, think about what kind of things would appeal to him. Or try multiple things.
But it does boil down to this (as others have said): his boss has kindly told him what he can do to move up. It's not a really hard thing to do, though it is awkward at first and requires some adjustment. It will become routine pretty easily, and he can always wear whatever he wants to at home. He is a grown-up and needs to suck it up, or make the decision that being taken seriously at work is less important than dressing like a lazy college student.
posted by Athanassiel at 8:10 AM on June 9, 2013
Some advice for forza, and I would think my advice to her will work for the OP's husband as well. If you want to keep wearing jeans and casual shoes, just upgrade them a little. Make sure they are nice dark blue or black jeans and dark shoes. So, you can still wear jeans, just upgrade them, and you can still wear Doc Martin's or sneakers, just make sure they are black. If what you wear below the waist is neat and does not call attention to itself, then it can be more casual. Then you just need to address the upper body. For men, ditch the t-shirts and go with something button down. For women, ditch any logo or too casual t-shirts and wear a blouse, button down, or if you wear a t-shirt wear something a bit more tailored looking. LL Bean is hardly a fashion icon, but this is an example of what I mean by upgrading your t-shirt for women, here is another women's shirt (note, I'm not a big fan of pink, just showing some styles rather than suggesting getting these exact items), and here's a man's shirt. Also, going with new or new looking, neat, pressed, clean, and no rips, goes a long long way toward being a better look for work clothing, and means you can still get away with more casual clothing; really just lose the t-shirts.
Once you've done some basic upgrading, you can then look to ways to individualize your look, if you want to. In the case of one woman I know, she dresses fairly conservatively, but wears some really interesting necklaces (including one made up of a line of small lime green model airplanes).
posted by gudrun at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Once you've done some basic upgrading, you can then look to ways to individualize your look, if you want to. In the case of one woman I know, she dresses fairly conservatively, but wears some really interesting necklaces (including one made up of a line of small lime green model airplanes).
posted by gudrun at 9:40 AM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Etrigan at 9:12 AM on June 8, 2013 [21 favorites]