Purchasing an old home: lead water and air duct questions inside.
May 9, 2013 1:23 AM Subscribe
The home my wife and I are possibly about to purchase was built in 1900 and we have a few questions about aged systems and family safety. Lead water pipes and asbestos tape, oh my!
My wife and I are about to purchase our first home. We've found one we like, and the inspection was just done today. The home was built in 1900 but has had a lot of updating, and while no major issues turned up, lots of minor ones did. The inspector was great, and offered good suggestions for how to fix the issues, but I'd like some further clarification from people who have gone through similar problems or who have knowledge in these areas, since neither of us are particularly knowledgeable or handy about this kind of stuff.
1. The water line running out to the street is made of lead. Forking out $5k to get it replaced isn't feasible, but the inspector said a filtration system, either at point of use (taps) or point of entry (water line) would be okay, or we could just flush the pipes every time we've let the water sit for more than 6 hours. I'm having a difficult time finding POE filters on the internet (I think I'm just not parsing this correctly), and I'm wondering if anyone else has been in a similar situation, and if you've just gone with a tap-filter or taken a different approach. If anyone has a POE filtration system, any ballpark idea on how much it would cost?
2. While flushing the water before drinking (or filtering it) is necessary before consuming or cooking with it, what about showering or washing dishes? I haven't found any conclusive answers for this online.
3. Many of the air ducts in the basement are sealed with asbestos tape, much of which is peeling. The inspector recommended sealing all of this up (over the tape and all) with a product he referred to as "Duckmastic". Has anyone used this type of sealant, and what were the results?
We have a 9-month old baby and are planning on more children in the future. Would issues like these be a deal breaker? Our financial situation is fairly solid, though we are not well off. The house is in the low $60ks, and we are not in a major rush to move out of our rented house, but we really do like the house we've found.
Any insight or thoughts on all of this is greatly appreciated. This whole home-buying experience has been both frightening and fun, but words like "lead poisoning" and "asbestos carcinogens" keep running through my mind. I know a certain amount of issues like this are definitely going to be present in a house of this age, but I'd like a little insight into anyone with similar experiences.
Thanks in advance!
My wife and I are about to purchase our first home. We've found one we like, and the inspection was just done today. The home was built in 1900 but has had a lot of updating, and while no major issues turned up, lots of minor ones did. The inspector was great, and offered good suggestions for how to fix the issues, but I'd like some further clarification from people who have gone through similar problems or who have knowledge in these areas, since neither of us are particularly knowledgeable or handy about this kind of stuff.
1. The water line running out to the street is made of lead. Forking out $5k to get it replaced isn't feasible, but the inspector said a filtration system, either at point of use (taps) or point of entry (water line) would be okay, or we could just flush the pipes every time we've let the water sit for more than 6 hours. I'm having a difficult time finding POE filters on the internet (I think I'm just not parsing this correctly), and I'm wondering if anyone else has been in a similar situation, and if you've just gone with a tap-filter or taken a different approach. If anyone has a POE filtration system, any ballpark idea on how much it would cost?
2. While flushing the water before drinking (or filtering it) is necessary before consuming or cooking with it, what about showering or washing dishes? I haven't found any conclusive answers for this online.
3. Many of the air ducts in the basement are sealed with asbestos tape, much of which is peeling. The inspector recommended sealing all of this up (over the tape and all) with a product he referred to as "Duckmastic". Has anyone used this type of sealant, and what were the results?
We have a 9-month old baby and are planning on more children in the future. Would issues like these be a deal breaker? Our financial situation is fairly solid, though we are not well off. The house is in the low $60ks, and we are not in a major rush to move out of our rented house, but we really do like the house we've found.
Any insight or thoughts on all of this is greatly appreciated. This whole home-buying experience has been both frightening and fun, but words like "lead poisoning" and "asbestos carcinogens" keep running through my mind. I know a certain amount of issues like this are definitely going to be present in a house of this age, but I'd like a little insight into anyone with similar experiences.
Thanks in advance!
Also, remember that house inspectors have a weird conflict of interest - it's their job to point out problems, but if they consistently make buyers aware of problems in a way that scares people off from buying, then realtors tend not to recommend them as much and they get less business. Therefore inspectors have an incentive to say, yes, this is a problem, but it's totally fixable and not a big deal! It's been my experience that inspectors downplay problems in this way.
posted by medusa at 1:52 AM on May 9, 2013
posted by medusa at 1:52 AM on May 9, 2013
The tape on the heating ducts isn't a big deal. Asbestos is only dangerous if it gets disturbed so that little fibers break loose and float around in the air. Since it's peeling it's probably easy to bump into a loose bit and move it around unhelpfully, so securing it somehow is a good idea. I am unfamiliar with the product your inspector mentioned. Similar tape in my last house had been buried in what appeared to be several coats of latex paint, which worked fine.
I don't know enough about lead leaching and poisoning, but if it's a real hazard then I would reconsider replacing the pipe, because someone will have to do it eventually and right now you have a shot at getting the current owners to eat much or all of the cost. Flushing the pipes after 6 hours of sitting sounds impractical -- "Okay, whoever gets up first in the morning has to run the cold (only the cold!) water on full blast for two and a half minutes (there's a timer sitting on the back of the toilet) before doing anything else." Filtration would be better, but still a potential maintenance worry. If you don't replace the pipe then these issues will come up again down the road when you sell the place, and potentially eat into the sales price then. If the current sellers didn't know about this, then this was just their bad luck. Don't knowingly buy their misfortune.
posted by jon1270 at 1:54 AM on May 9, 2013
I don't know enough about lead leaching and poisoning, but if it's a real hazard then I would reconsider replacing the pipe, because someone will have to do it eventually and right now you have a shot at getting the current owners to eat much or all of the cost. Flushing the pipes after 6 hours of sitting sounds impractical -- "Okay, whoever gets up first in the morning has to run the cold (only the cold!) water on full blast for two and a half minutes (there's a timer sitting on the back of the toilet) before doing anything else." Filtration would be better, but still a potential maintenance worry. If you don't replace the pipe then these issues will come up again down the road when you sell the place, and potentially eat into the sales price then. If the current sellers didn't know about this, then this was just their bad luck. Don't knowingly buy their misfortune.
posted by jon1270 at 1:54 AM on May 9, 2013
It's fairly common in older homes to have lead pipes from the house out to the main. The issue with flushing is that the lead will leach into water that's been standing in the pipes - not water that's running through them. I've been told it would take something like centuries of exposure to get enough exposure to lead from a pipe like you're describing to be a problem That said - this is worth building the cost of replacing that line into any offer you make.
Asbestos insulation is often better left undisturbed and sealed because it's only a hazard if airborne. That said, I just spent a lot of money to have asbestos insulation over heating pipes in my basement pulled out - in part because it is much harder now to sell a house with it in place. Again - build remediation costs into any offer you make on a house - it's the easiest and best time to deal with it.
posted by leslies at 4:18 AM on May 9, 2013
Asbestos insulation is often better left undisturbed and sealed because it's only a hazard if airborne. That said, I just spent a lot of money to have asbestos insulation over heating pipes in my basement pulled out - in part because it is much harder now to sell a house with it in place. Again - build remediation costs into any offer you make on a house - it's the easiest and best time to deal with it.
posted by leslies at 4:18 AM on May 9, 2013
There's no point in testing the paint, a home that old will have lead paint, possibly underneath non-lead paint that was added later. If the interior paint is peeling, it tends to be easy for children to eat.
Make your offer conditional on the seller sealing the asbestos at the very least, this is not something you want to be doing yourself.
posted by yohko at 4:22 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Make your offer conditional on the seller sealing the asbestos at the very least, this is not something you want to be doing yourself.
posted by yohko at 4:22 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Eh, the inspector isn't objectively wrong in his recommendations, but I personally would want more than that if I were buying the house. I agree that you might want to see if the seller can handle these costs pre-closing (and personally I'd want the asbestos tape removed, not encapsulated -- it's more expensive, yes, but it doesn't turn any future duct work into a completely new asbestos issue).
Did the inspector actually sample anything? If he hasn't sampled the materials, he doesn't know the tape is the only asbestos. You could also have, say, an ancient boiler covered in asbestos, which can be a real nightmare to deal with if the boiler dies.
Moreover, if he didn't sample the drinking water, he doesn't actually know that flushing the water system will get the lead down below the drinking water standards. (This is a thing, for reals. Sometimes flushing the system works. Sometimes it doesn't. You have to actually sample the pre- and post-flush water to know if your problem can be managed this way.)
And Medusa is right that lead-based paint is an issue here. It's probably the biggest issue here, especially given that you have young kids. If the inspector didn't do any assessment, that's a big deal and if I were in your situation, I would get someone in to look at this. (The standards for a proper assessment vary a great deal, sometimes because of differing state regs, but at the very least I'd want a survey that (a) didn't use the little test swabs from Home Depot -- they're unreliable -- you really want someone with an XRF unit to come in for a few hours -- and (b) tested all the surfaces, not just some.)
If you're in the US, you can check in with your county or city environmental health folks for more specific questions about this sort of thing in your area, and any rules and programs that might be out there. The local water supplier may also have a lead in drinking water program, including assessment help.
posted by pie ninja at 4:26 AM on May 9, 2013
Did the inspector actually sample anything? If he hasn't sampled the materials, he doesn't know the tape is the only asbestos. You could also have, say, an ancient boiler covered in asbestos, which can be a real nightmare to deal with if the boiler dies.
Moreover, if he didn't sample the drinking water, he doesn't actually know that flushing the water system will get the lead down below the drinking water standards. (This is a thing, for reals. Sometimes flushing the system works. Sometimes it doesn't. You have to actually sample the pre- and post-flush water to know if your problem can be managed this way.)
And Medusa is right that lead-based paint is an issue here. It's probably the biggest issue here, especially given that you have young kids. If the inspector didn't do any assessment, that's a big deal and if I were in your situation, I would get someone in to look at this. (The standards for a proper assessment vary a great deal, sometimes because of differing state regs, but at the very least I'd want a survey that (a) didn't use the little test swabs from Home Depot -- they're unreliable -- you really want someone with an XRF unit to come in for a few hours -- and (b) tested all the surfaces, not just some.)
If you're in the US, you can check in with your county or city environmental health folks for more specific questions about this sort of thing in your area, and any rules and programs that might be out there. The local water supplier may also have a lead in drinking water program, including assessment help.
posted by pie ninja at 4:26 AM on May 9, 2013
Lead pipes were not the source of most low-level lead poisoning over the last century; lead paint was. In pipes, the lead and the calcium in the water form a barrier; no lead is leached into the water. If it had, there wouldn't be any pipe left after 113 years.
posted by notsnot at 5:38 AM on May 9, 2013
posted by notsnot at 5:38 AM on May 9, 2013
Best answer: I wouldn't worry about the lead pipe. That is easily mitigated by replacement, letting it run, or using bottled water for consumption. Other posters are right, the only way to be sure is to have the water tested.
As for the asbestos tape, I would want all asbestos remediated before I bought a house. The product the inspector referred to is duct mastic, and it's goop that you smear over seams to make them airtight.
Lead paint is only an issue if it is disturbed. If it is solid, I wouldn't worry. If it is peeling, I would.
posted by gjc at 5:43 AM on May 9, 2013
As for the asbestos tape, I would want all asbestos remediated before I bought a house. The product the inspector referred to is duct mastic, and it's goop that you smear over seams to make them airtight.
Lead paint is only an issue if it is disturbed. If it is solid, I wouldn't worry. If it is peeling, I would.
posted by gjc at 5:43 AM on May 9, 2013
Entirely anecdotal, but in the UK where the vast majority of desirable (i.e. old) properties have some or all of these issues, the only one that people might be concerned about is the asbestos. The paint gets painted over and the old lead pipes, well, you'd probably get them replaced eventually, but as someone else here points out, the interiors will be well and truly encrusted with calcium. As far as I am aware, lead poisoning is not a thing over here. If it was, I'm sure the Daily Mail would have told us.
posted by rhymer at 5:51 AM on May 9, 2013
posted by rhymer at 5:51 AM on May 9, 2013
I'd counter-offer contingent on the owner making the updates prior to closing. Ask for both the $5k for the pipe and asbestos removal.
For sure, I'd have the asbestos properly REMOVED. Asbestos is just not something I'd dick around with.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:04 AM on May 9, 2013
For sure, I'd have the asbestos properly REMOVED. Asbestos is just not something I'd dick around with.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:04 AM on May 9, 2013
Best answer: Lead paint is only an issue if it is disturbed. If it is solid, I wouldn't worry. If it is peeling, I would.
posted by gjc at 5:43 AM on May 9
Wrong. Lead paint is always an issue even if it is 100% intact. The issue is mouthable surfaces. Kids will gnaw on anything, so windowsills, door jambs, and basically anything below 5 ft. has to be either removed or encapsulated. As a home buyer this is entirely up to you. There is no obligation from the seller other than making you aware that there is lead paint.
posted by Gungho at 6:53 AM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by gjc at 5:43 AM on May 9
Wrong. Lead paint is always an issue even if it is 100% intact. The issue is mouthable surfaces. Kids will gnaw on anything, so windowsills, door jambs, and basically anything below 5 ft. has to be either removed or encapsulated. As a home buyer this is entirely up to you. There is no obligation from the seller other than making you aware that there is lead paint.
posted by Gungho at 6:53 AM on May 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: About the entry pipe. pie ninja is correct that it's really important to do sample measurements of the water to determine if it is actually safe drinking levels when the system has been flushed.
Read the CDC's tips on lead in water. Among other things, they say that "bathing and showering should be safe for you and your children, even if the water contains lead over EPA’s action level." which is good news, your morning showers wouldn't be dangerous whether you've flushed the system or not. However, it's not that simple. CDC is the source of the 6-hours 2-minute flushing reccomendation that the inspector cited. They also specify COLD water. Let's discuss.
One reason for the hot/cold distinction is that water's ability to hold dissolved particles is highly temperature dependent (like trying to stir sugar into iced tea). The other is that hot water comes from the heater tank, not directly from the street, so it has a history that's different from cold water.
The good news is that because your lead source is at the house-to-street connection, before the hot water heater, it doesn't matter what temperature you run the taps, the water flushing through that lead portion of the pipes is always cold (the supply temperature). That means that while the water in your house is running and there's fresh water going through the lead pipe, the water won't be getting too leady as it passes through. Also, if the pipes after the hot water heater are modern, hot water won't be getting any more leady as it travels from the heater to your tap.
The bad news is that taking a morning shower in hot leady water is a safe shower, but sets up unsafe system conditions. If cold water sits in the lead supply pipe overnight, it slowly picks up a bit of lead. Then you take a morning shower in hot water, and send the supply of cold (somewhat leady) water into your hot water heater. That water heats up and hangs out in the heater tank, and is warm enough that the lead will happily stay dissolved in it, so now no matter what time of day you run hot water, it will have some lead in it. Consider that no matter what your actions are after you buy the house, the hot water heater is probably already housing lead particulates.
So you go to the kitchen and run hot water, wash your lunch dishes in it. The amount of lead fromthe hot water heater that sticks to your plates is negligible, but the pipe between the basement and the kitchen tap now has hot leady water in it. You go away for a few hours, and it cools down, perhaps dumping some lead particulate into the pipe. Now you run the cold tap to get water to cook pasta for dinner, and the first gallon (ish?) of water that comes out is water that was formerly hot and full of lead, and/or flushing lead sediment as it flows. Yum.
My advice: It's easy to buy water-test kits at hardware stores; test the lead levels in the cold water before flushing, in the hot water, and in the cold water after flushing. Depending on how those compare to the CDC's 15ppb, you may decide to declare the system "usually safe" or "unsafe under any conditions".
If the cold/flush level is lower than the others, that means that if you understand the system, and always flush cold water through everything, you can keep the levels down - but consider whether you think your kid (once old enough to act independently) will follow the rules, too.
I'd at least try asking the seller for $5k to fix the pipe, but if they don't give it to you, you may or may not decide not to bother replacing it with your own $5k, depending on the test results.
source: physicist, thinks too much, lives in an old house. This is all my own logic, not proven public policy.
posted by aimedwander at 7:48 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Read the CDC's tips on lead in water. Among other things, they say that "bathing and showering should be safe for you and your children, even if the water contains lead over EPA’s action level." which is good news, your morning showers wouldn't be dangerous whether you've flushed the system or not. However, it's not that simple. CDC is the source of the 6-hours 2-minute flushing reccomendation that the inspector cited. They also specify COLD water. Let's discuss.
One reason for the hot/cold distinction is that water's ability to hold dissolved particles is highly temperature dependent (like trying to stir sugar into iced tea). The other is that hot water comes from the heater tank, not directly from the street, so it has a history that's different from cold water.
The good news is that because your lead source is at the house-to-street connection, before the hot water heater, it doesn't matter what temperature you run the taps, the water flushing through that lead portion of the pipes is always cold (the supply temperature). That means that while the water in your house is running and there's fresh water going through the lead pipe, the water won't be getting too leady as it passes through. Also, if the pipes after the hot water heater are modern, hot water won't be getting any more leady as it travels from the heater to your tap.
The bad news is that taking a morning shower in hot leady water is a safe shower, but sets up unsafe system conditions. If cold water sits in the lead supply pipe overnight, it slowly picks up a bit of lead. Then you take a morning shower in hot water, and send the supply of cold (somewhat leady) water into your hot water heater. That water heats up and hangs out in the heater tank, and is warm enough that the lead will happily stay dissolved in it, so now no matter what time of day you run hot water, it will have some lead in it. Consider that no matter what your actions are after you buy the house, the hot water heater is probably already housing lead particulates.
So you go to the kitchen and run hot water, wash your lunch dishes in it. The amount of lead fromthe hot water heater that sticks to your plates is negligible, but the pipe between the basement and the kitchen tap now has hot leady water in it. You go away for a few hours, and it cools down, perhaps dumping some lead particulate into the pipe. Now you run the cold tap to get water to cook pasta for dinner, and the first gallon (ish?) of water that comes out is water that was formerly hot and full of lead, and/or flushing lead sediment as it flows. Yum.
My advice: It's easy to buy water-test kits at hardware stores; test the lead levels in the cold water before flushing, in the hot water, and in the cold water after flushing. Depending on how those compare to the CDC's 15ppb, you may decide to declare the system "usually safe" or "unsafe under any conditions".
If the cold/flush level is lower than the others, that means that if you understand the system, and always flush cold water through everything, you can keep the levels down - but consider whether you think your kid (once old enough to act independently) will follow the rules, too.
I'd at least try asking the seller for $5k to fix the pipe, but if they don't give it to you, you may or may not decide not to bother replacing it with your own $5k, depending on the test results.
source: physicist, thinks too much, lives in an old house. This is all my own logic, not proven public policy.
posted by aimedwander at 7:48 AM on May 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Quick question. Did this inspector also check the houses wiring and electrical system?
I ask because I lived in an old rental house (a little newer) and when we would go into the basement, many of the wires seemed really sketchy and were still fabric-insulated.
So you want to make sure not only the environmental problems, but that you can run all of the electrical things you need to without blowing a fuse or starting a fire.
Also consider where the electrical outlets are and if it will be a hassle to run extension cords from the one electrical outlet in the room, as is common in older houses.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:26 AM on May 9, 2013
I ask because I lived in an old rental house (a little newer) and when we would go into the basement, many of the wires seemed really sketchy and were still fabric-insulated.
So you want to make sure not only the environmental problems, but that you can run all of the electrical things you need to without blowing a fuse or starting a fire.
Also consider where the electrical outlets are and if it will be a hassle to run extension cords from the one electrical outlet in the room, as is common in older houses.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:26 AM on May 9, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks for the great responses everyone, you've all added a little light to these questions. Just to clarify a few things, we are in Michigan; the inspector did not test the water or the peeling tape to verify that it's asbestos, but I guess he was basically recommending that it be treated as such. Everything else in the house was fine; furnace, water tank, wiring, etc. It was really only the lead-based stuff (water and paint) and asbestos tape that I was worried about, although from the responses I've been getting, it seems that in the long run the paint will end up being a larger problem than the water.
To be honest, we are probably going to pass on the house now, based on the info I've been getting (and thanks to to the members who me-mailed me directly; most kind!). I'll leave this open for anyone else to chime in if they wish.
Thanks again, Hivemind, you're the best!
posted by Wrongshanks at 2:48 PM on May 9, 2013
To be honest, we are probably going to pass on the house now, based on the info I've been getting (and thanks to to the members who me-mailed me directly; most kind!). I'll leave this open for anyone else to chime in if they wish.
Thanks again, Hivemind, you're the best!
posted by Wrongshanks at 2:48 PM on May 9, 2013
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Personally I would not live in a house with small kids with a lead water pipe, the cognitive problems that occur from lead poisoning are very well documented. I'd be too paranoid about the filter breaking or something.
Did you also test for lead based paint in the house? I would definitely do that with a house this old.
posted by medusa at 1:44 AM on May 9, 2013 [2 favorites]