Broken CFL exposure
April 13, 2013 8:59 AM Subscribe
Toddler knocked over a lamp with one of those god forsaken CFLs in it.
He picked up a piece and handed it to me. I didnt hear the lamp fall even though I was about 10 feet from him. I had heard about mecury vapor in them but there is no warning on box when I installed it so I really didnt think it was as toxic as I've since read. I went to get the shop vac and my wife vacuumed. While she was vacuuming I looked it up and yelled at her to stop the vacuum and evacuate to upstairs to take showers. The bulb broke in the living room and my whole main floor is open concept. We were in the general area for about 5-15 minutes before we left and then I opened the door beside where the bulb broke to the outside and shut off the furnace.
We called poison control (twice) both people on poison control were only concerned that we dispose of the bulb properly and said 5 mg of mercury is not enough to harm a human. I've since read that that is not true. If eaten 5 mg is not enough to harm a human. .25 mg seems to be enough when inhailed to poison an adult. There is actually between 1 and 20 mg in one of these stupid things.
We went to walk in clinic and doc said he's fine. Though he didnt look like he knew much. Went to my doctor who said its just a little poof don't worry about it. But I've read the Maine Cfl study and it doesn't seem like its a little poof. I've emailed a few doctors and have heard everything from get blood/urine tests and watch for neurological symptoms to it was like eating a nibble of tuna. What gives here.
I've also read the SCHER report and they say health effects not expected for adults or fetuses but they can't make a call on children. I emailed EPA they told me to contact doctor or poison control.
I know there are real people out there in the real world that may be able to shed some light on this for me. Right now I'm terrified, and have thrown out lamp, toys, clothing(I hope all of it not sure).
Any opinions I'd really appreciate. Have I gone overboard here or is this is bad as my reading the Internet has led me to believe.
He picked up a piece and handed it to me. I didnt hear the lamp fall even though I was about 10 feet from him. I had heard about mecury vapor in them but there is no warning on box when I installed it so I really didnt think it was as toxic as I've since read. I went to get the shop vac and my wife vacuumed. While she was vacuuming I looked it up and yelled at her to stop the vacuum and evacuate to upstairs to take showers. The bulb broke in the living room and my whole main floor is open concept. We were in the general area for about 5-15 minutes before we left and then I opened the door beside where the bulb broke to the outside and shut off the furnace.
We called poison control (twice) both people on poison control were only concerned that we dispose of the bulb properly and said 5 mg of mercury is not enough to harm a human. I've since read that that is not true. If eaten 5 mg is not enough to harm a human. .25 mg seems to be enough when inhailed to poison an adult. There is actually between 1 and 20 mg in one of these stupid things.
We went to walk in clinic and doc said he's fine. Though he didnt look like he knew much. Went to my doctor who said its just a little poof don't worry about it. But I've read the Maine Cfl study and it doesn't seem like its a little poof. I've emailed a few doctors and have heard everything from get blood/urine tests and watch for neurological symptoms to it was like eating a nibble of tuna. What gives here.
I've also read the SCHER report and they say health effects not expected for adults or fetuses but they can't make a call on children. I emailed EPA they told me to contact doctor or poison control.
I know there are real people out there in the real world that may be able to shed some light on this for me. Right now I'm terrified, and have thrown out lamp, toys, clothing(I hope all of it not sure).
Any opinions I'd really appreciate. Have I gone overboard here or is this is bad as my reading the Internet has led me to believe.
You're all fine, just like everyone had said. If breaking a light bulb was seriously dangerous, you would hear about light bulb related deaths on the news every single night. There would be outrage and the bulbs would be banned from sale, like lead paint.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:05 AM on April 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 9:05 AM on April 13, 2013 [9 favorites]
Scientific American produced a story, "Are Compact Fluorescent Lightbulbs Dangerous?" which should be helpful. The EPA has instructions on "Cleaning Up a Broken CFL." Just follow those instructions and don't worry about it too much. Dealing with one CFL is not going to be super harmful.
posted by grouse at 9:05 AM on April 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by grouse at 9:05 AM on April 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Which Maine study did you read? A summary of the report here says even in the worst-case scenario, where there's no ventilation, no evacuation, no picking up of CFL pieces, you're not looking at an emergency situation.
So the study says it's OK, and multiple medical professionals say it's OK. I think it's OK.
posted by Anonymous at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2013
So the study says it's OK, and multiple medical professionals say it's OK. I think it's OK.
posted by Anonymous at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2013
Mercury vapor is much heavier than air. It is not wafting about your house. It never was. Whatever mercury there was fell to the floor immediately around the lamp. A brief exposure to the miniscule amount of mercury in the bulb is not a health concern. Stop throwing things away, and recover what toys you can from the trash.
Poison Control gave you good advice. Listen to Poison Control when there is a poison issue, not us strangers on the internet. Didn't you feel better when they didn't dispatch a HAZMAT crew to your house?
posted by Tanizaki at 9:23 AM on April 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Poison Control gave you good advice. Listen to Poison Control when there is a poison issue, not us strangers on the internet. Didn't you feel better when they didn't dispatch a HAZMAT crew to your house?
posted by Tanizaki at 9:23 AM on April 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: the study I read was http://www.maine.gov/dep/homeowner/cflreport.html . basically it says these bulbs send vapor into the air that exceed OSHA limits of .1 mg/m3 in air. They also say they contaminate everything they've touched and that they took readings on the floor where cfl's broke that are 20,000 ng/m3 + for weeks (for wood floor) and months (on carpet) when floors are agitated. Their baseline is the EPA's NOAEL for maximum vapor levels for the general population of 300 ng/m3 for what they think a maximum chronic exposure limit is that they don't think would cause effects. Background levels in normal air are between 2-5 ng/m3.
@schroedinger some medical professionals are saying its very bad. Others I've talked to seem to be speaking from ignorance. I seem to know a lot more then they do.
posted by johnstrick at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
@schroedinger some medical professionals are saying its very bad. Others I've talked to seem to be speaking from ignorance. I seem to know a lot more then they do.
posted by johnstrick at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, that was the study that the article I linked addressed. The 300 ng/m3 is for LIFETIME exposure, not one-time only. That is, maximum exposure levels recommended for people working in those conditions every day. You're worried about one-time, emergency exposure levels. Read the article I linked, it explains the difference.
posted by Anonymous at 9:44 AM on April 13, 2013
posted by Anonymous at 9:44 AM on April 13, 2013
You've gone overboard. Stop freaking out about it and never think on it again. You'll all be perfectly fine.
posted by Justinian at 9:45 AM on April 13, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 9:45 AM on April 13, 2013 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm actually not a chemical phobic person. I'm an industrial radiographer that works at refineries, weld shops, etc using high energy gamma radiation sources like Co60, and Ir192. If I had broken this bulb and it was just my wife and I would have balked at the cleanup directions. Its freaked me out because of my kids. When studies (such as the SCHER) state things like "we can't make a determination about the effects on children because of hand to mouth actions and ingestion of mercury contaminated dust" it kind of freaks you out. It also doesn't help when other studies (I have to find links) say they don't know what a "spike" in mercury can do to a childs brain.
posted by johnstrick at 10:07 AM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by johnstrick at 10:07 AM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Tyler I never thought we were all going to die from this, I am just worried about the long term effects for my children. There is a good blog about this at http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=246
I've researched everything he's said and he seems to know what he's talking about. It really doesn't sound good for childrens exposures to these things.
I do appreciate the reassurances.
posted by johnstrick at 10:28 AM on April 13, 2013
I've researched everything he's said and he seems to know what he's talking about. It really doesn't sound good for childrens exposures to these things.
I do appreciate the reassurances.
posted by johnstrick at 10:28 AM on April 13, 2013
Snopes.
My mother used to be a school lab technician, and back then they threw mercury around recklessly, not just from broken thermometers but also just letting the kids play around with some. She reckoned there must have been pints of it in the floorboards from all the spillages. Not saying that was a good idea by any means, but no harm came to anyone.
posted by Segundus at 10:33 AM on April 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
My mother used to be a school lab technician, and back then they threw mercury around recklessly, not just from broken thermometers but also just letting the kids play around with some. She reckoned there must have been pints of it in the floorboards from all the spillages. Not saying that was a good idea by any means, but no harm came to anyone.
posted by Segundus at 10:33 AM on April 13, 2013 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Hey johnstrick, moderator here. Just to let you know, in general AskMetafilter threads are not really for back-and-forth discussion, so OPs typically do not comment much in thread. I absolutely understand being unsettled by the CFL situation, but at this point it's probably good to just take a step back and wait to see if people have additional info for you.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:49 AM on April 13, 2013
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:49 AM on April 13, 2013
Was the bulb on or off when broken? My understanding is that, when they're cold, there's very little actual mercury vapor in there. The vapor pressure of mercury is quite low after all.
Also, different CFLs have different amounts of mercury.
Disclaimer: IANAD. But:
It's hard to be reassuring because I don't think there's an established lower limit for mercury toxicity. But unless your kid ate a blob of mercury he really, really didn't consume very much mercury by any standard. Any effect it has on him would be the sort that's only observable by doing statistical analysis of large populations. He'll be fine. I'd be more worried about the little slivers of glass and whatever crazy stuff is in the phosphor.
have heard everything from get blood/urine tests and watch for neurological symptoms to it was like eating a nibble of tuna
If tuna has a few hundred ppb of mercury, a can will have tens of micrograms— and in a highly bioavailable form, unlike the elemental mercury in a CFL.
If I were you, I'd figure out how to safely clean a patch of possibly-mercury-contaminated carpet, do that, teach your kid to be careful around broken sharp things but not freak out too much, and put it from your mind.
posted by hattifattener at 12:36 PM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, different CFLs have different amounts of mercury.
Disclaimer: IANAD. But:
It's hard to be reassuring because I don't think there's an established lower limit for mercury toxicity. But unless your kid ate a blob of mercury he really, really didn't consume very much mercury by any standard. Any effect it has on him would be the sort that's only observable by doing statistical analysis of large populations. He'll be fine. I'd be more worried about the little slivers of glass and whatever crazy stuff is in the phosphor.
have heard everything from get blood/urine tests and watch for neurological symptoms to it was like eating a nibble of tuna
If tuna has a few hundred ppb of mercury, a can will have tens of micrograms— and in a highly bioavailable form, unlike the elemental mercury in a CFL.
If I were you, I'd figure out how to safely clean a patch of possibly-mercury-contaminated carpet, do that, teach your kid to be careful around broken sharp things but not freak out too much, and put it from your mind.
posted by hattifattener at 12:36 PM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
Think about it this way - did your wife ingest any alcohol whatsoever while pregnant with your child? Any fish that might have contained mercury? If you look up a lot of those pregnancy guidelines they say the same thing about not being able to establish any safe level for babies and children. It is because it is nigh impossible do a study on this sort of thing ethically. Given the litigation environment in the USA, the recommendation will always be "any amount could, theoretically be hazardous" - because we cannot prove otherwise.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:53 PM on April 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by treehorn+bunny at 1:53 PM on April 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
Mercury vapor is generally bad for you, duh. For future reference, I have no cite, but have read the recommendation to open a window or 2 and leave the room for 15 minutes. I would not lose sleep about this incident, or at least not any more sleep than you regularly lose by having a toddler. For looks, convenience and safety, I favor the CFLs with a plastic globe covering the glass; though I generally avoid plastic stuff. I have been swapping out bulbs in exposed locations. Home Depot recycles CFLs and other fluorescent bulbs.
posted by theora55 at 2:00 PM on April 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 2:00 PM on April 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: @Hatti the bulb was off but the Maine cfl study saw no difference in bulbs broken on or off. It was not shattered everywhere from what my wife remembers it was contained in the lampshade. We vacuumed which is a mixed blessing. It was not on carpet. Vacuuming with the shop vac is how we always clean up glass cause it picks up everything. After I kept reading and found out I needed to wipe the floor I wiped the whole floor (all laminate) on the main floor of our house with a wet towel. Then I did it again with wet paper towels ( the whole main floor and the couches). Who knows if we tracked around anything (powder)before I realized about all of this and wiped down the floor.
posted by johnstrick at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2013
posted by johnstrick at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2013
here is a podcast with an interview with a poison control expert and I hope it is helpful.
posted by bq at 3:44 PM on April 13, 2013
posted by bq at 3:44 PM on April 13, 2013
Did you read schroedinger's link about the Maine study you're focused on?
As data from the Maine DEP study illustrate, long-term exposure to mercury from a broken CFL poses a minuscule risk — and no risk at all if simple cleanup guidelines are followed.
You appear to be choosing to be freaked out a maximum of 350 nanograms of vaporised mercury when the data doesn't support that anxiety. If you're going to continue to be anxious about this, switch to low-mercury bulbs or LED bulbs.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:00 PM on April 13, 2013
As data from the Maine DEP study illustrate, long-term exposure to mercury from a broken CFL poses a minuscule risk — and no risk at all if simple cleanup guidelines are followed.
You appear to be choosing to be freaked out a maximum of 350 nanograms of vaporised mercury when the data doesn't support that anxiety. If you're going to continue to be anxious about this, switch to low-mercury bulbs or LED bulbs.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:00 PM on April 13, 2013
Response by poster: Around 50:00 he is talking about this if anyone wants to listen. Basically he says the Heath unit or epa will come out with a vapor meter if you have spread the mercury contamination. Guess what. They don't in my area. I asked.
posted by johnstrick at 6:02 PM on April 13, 2013
posted by johnstrick at 6:02 PM on April 13, 2013
Response by poster: darlingbri I have switched, there are no fluorescent bulbs in my house ever again. I just don't know what to believe, you have guys like the poison control guy in the above link saying that if it was spread around call the EPA to make sure you have no ongoing exposure and to cut your carpet and dispose of anything that touched bulb. Are you reading the same report I am? Where are you getting this 350 ng of vaporized mercury from. That is absolutely nowhere in this study. They even state that in their worst case scenario there is ~133,000 ng per cubic meter at the one foot height so how can there only be 350 ng?
posted by johnstrick at 6:24 PM on April 13, 2013
posted by johnstrick at 6:24 PM on April 13, 2013
Response by poster: that is not the maine study this is http://www.maine.gov/dep/homeowner/cflreport.htm
posted by johnstrick at 6:37 PM on April 13, 2013
posted by johnstrick at 6:37 PM on April 13, 2013
Best answer: We have those bulbs and occasion they have broken. We were much less diligent then you in cleaning it up. I have 4 kids (all older). No offense but you need to relax. I think you did a great job cleaning up and have clearly researched this topic. Perhaps you've overreacted by throwing everything out. The worst has happened and you've dealt with it. As a parent with teens, shit happens. I think the more stressed you get, the more your kid will get stressed as well. Over the years, your kids are going to be exposed to all sorts of crazy dangers, you deal and move on. I think this is what parenting is all about.
posted by lasamana at 7:31 PM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by lasamana at 7:31 PM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree with lasamana except that a broken CFL isn't a crazy danger. johnstrick, you're making yourself crazy by overreacting to something that can hardly be qualified as a danger at all.
Look at a tube of rubber cement, for example. If you read the warnings it sounds like if you get a drop of the stuff on your bare skin you're going to start shaking and develop all kinds of neurological problems. Because that's how warning labels work. But in reality you can apply the stuff with your hand and you won't notice the effects unless you're doing it every day.
NOTE: do not apply rubber cement with your hands. I'm just making a point.
Similarly, when you read about the toxicity of CFLs it sounds like the end of the world. But in real life it isn't going to do a thing. Not a thing. Unless you're breaking them every day and sniffing the powder like it's cocaine.
posted by Justinian at 8:27 PM on April 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
Look at a tube of rubber cement, for example. If you read the warnings it sounds like if you get a drop of the stuff on your bare skin you're going to start shaking and develop all kinds of neurological problems. Because that's how warning labels work. But in reality you can apply the stuff with your hand and you won't notice the effects unless you're doing it every day.
NOTE: do not apply rubber cement with your hands. I'm just making a point.
Similarly, when you read about the toxicity of CFLs it sounds like the end of the world. But in real life it isn't going to do a thing. Not a thing. Unless you're breaking them every day and sniffing the powder like it's cocaine.
posted by Justinian at 8:27 PM on April 13, 2013 [2 favorites]
I just don't know what to believe
I think you should believe Poison Control, the 2 doctors you went to, and every single person on this thread -- all of whom have told you not to worry.
posted by neroli at 8:47 PM on April 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
I think you should believe Poison Control, the 2 doctors you went to, and every single person on this thread -- all of whom have told you not to worry.
posted by neroli at 8:47 PM on April 13, 2013 [5 favorites]
More reassurance. You're fine. Your kid is fine. Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:12 PM on April 13, 2013
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:12 PM on April 13, 2013
Are you reading the same report I am? Where are you getting this 350 ng of vaporized mercury from.
Again, I am getting it from this article schroedinger linked to which is two guys from Cornell specifically addressing your concerns. It deals with exactly the study you read and it says:
They found that if the average CFL contains 5 mg of mercury, just 50 - 350 nanograms of mercury will be in vapor form when the lamp is on. More recent research has shown that much of the mercury contained in a fluorescent lamp is not released when the lamp is broken or landfilled. It attaches to the lamp walls, phosphor powder, and other components within the lamp.
The EPA says 300 ng is the safety threshold for prolonged exposure and we're not talking about prolonged exposure here. Your family is fine.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:14 AM on April 14, 2013
Again, I am getting it from this article schroedinger linked to which is two guys from Cornell specifically addressing your concerns. It deals with exactly the study you read and it says:
They found that if the average CFL contains 5 mg of mercury, just 50 - 350 nanograms of mercury will be in vapor form when the lamp is on. More recent research has shown that much of the mercury contained in a fluorescent lamp is not released when the lamp is broken or landfilled. It attaches to the lamp walls, phosphor powder, and other components within the lamp.
The EPA says 300 ng is the safety threshold for prolonged exposure and we're not talking about prolonged exposure here. Your family is fine.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:14 AM on April 14, 2013
Response by poster: Thanks everyone for the reassurances
Darlingbri the study in your link is referencing a study done in 1993 about the 50-350 ng inside a llbulb when it's on. The other study they reference is in fact the Maine study from 2007 I have link for. However the Maine study actually broke cfls, measured the actual air and proved that once a cfl is broken the tiny microscopic droplets of mercury quickly vaporize and produce numbers like 25,000-over 100,000 ng/m3.
posted by johnstrick at 3:52 AM on April 15, 2013
Darlingbri the study in your link is referencing a study done in 1993 about the 50-350 ng inside a llbulb when it's on. The other study they reference is in fact the Maine study from 2007 I have link for. However the Maine study actually broke cfls, measured the actual air and proved that once a cfl is broken the tiny microscopic droplets of mercury quickly vaporize and produce numbers like 25,000-over 100,000 ng/m3.
posted by johnstrick at 3:52 AM on April 15, 2013
Response by poster: I have read every study I can find and it seems scary to me that there is no information on childrens exposures to this amount of mercury. And very scary that something that could potentially damage a child's brain or actually poison someone badly (yes it can poison you that is not a debate) and is in a fragile glass tube that when broken vapourizes could not carry at least a warning on the box. All the box I have says is to dispose of according to local requirements, and a little Hg on the base of the bulb.
posted by johnstrick at 4:05 AM on April 15, 2013
posted by johnstrick at 4:05 AM on April 15, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
broken CFL bulb in bedroom, can we sleep there?
broken CFL bulb in toddler's room, is it ok?
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:04 AM on April 13, 2013 [1 favorite]