How do I politely end a friendship that has gone down the rabbit hole?
April 6, 2013 9:12 PM Subscribe
My friend "Joe" and I have been friends on and off for over 7 years. - On and Off being key words - Recently a few things in the friendship were really inappropriate - details inside - and he has since stopped talking to me. During this time I have realized my life will be much more drama-free to end the friendship, but I would like to do so with the least drama, while still getting myself heard.
Keeping as short as possible. Joe has a habit over the years of finding a mountain in a molehill situation, blowing it out of proportion, then as a result not talking to me for months at a time. These times of "radio silence" as I like to call them always happen of his doing, when most of the time I have been available to work through whatever small disagreement we had.
We have been on talking terms for the past 3 or so years. During which time I have been with my husband (we have been married for the past year.) My friend Joe was always disapproving of any men I was with, except my husband, who he really approves of. This is partly due to some sexual/relationship tention in our past and him trying to act like a "big brother."
That has lead the the most recent issues. Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman, however I knew they were jokes and they were few and far between. He also has a habit of flirting with people in relationships or while he is in a relationship, which he knows I despise. However I thought I was being pushed more into the "bro" category - even though I am female - which is where I prefer to be with male friends.
After I moved out of state about 6 months ago we were talking/texting a few times a week. Within about a week, he made 3 or 4 really inappropriate comments. So inappropriate in fact that I prefer not to say them. I tried to brush them off, but they got too much to handle and were making my husband uncomfortable along with myself. I finally told him calmly in a text that: I'm not sure if you realize but you have been making inappropriate comments and I need you to respect my marriage or we can't really continue to talk. He replied that he didn't know what I was talking about. I gave him a few quick examples and told him I wasn't mad and we could chat on the phone to resolve it. He said he understood and would give us some space.
Radio Silence for 2 weeks. I text asking if he wants to catch up. Nothing. This put the first ding in the friendship. A simple "I need some space" would have sufficed. He even completely ignored my birthday. Us being friends for so many years he knows when my birthday is, and was previously asking me what I wanted as a gift before he stopped talking to me.
He also recently FB messaged me to say, "i know i've stopped talking with you, but i did want to let you know i agree with your point you put on "Mutual_Friend's" facebook...."
I replied saying, "I knew someone would agree, and I'm not sure why we aren't talking since it wasn't that big of a deal to me."
He said "Well it was a big deal to me."
Needless to say, that threw me for a loop. He was the one saying obviously inappropriate comments. Things he would never have said in front of my husband. That was the final nail in the coffin. I know it would be better for myself and my marriage to end this friendship. I am just not sure how to do it. Also the fact that he sees himself as the victim in something that could have been nothing is astonishing. I need a grown-up friendship. If it was a big deal to him, how would not talking to me solve anything?
My husband and father say, "Just don't talk to him." But that will only work for so long. It's now been 2 months since me telling him he was upsetting me. Any time he has not talked to me in the past, he expects that when he does talk to me, we are to immediately be best friends. I don't want this to happen and for my response to be, "Yeah, well about that, we can't be friends."
I would like to end things as calmly as possible, and there is just too much baggage there to continue on with this thing. It makes me sad because we have been great friends and after moving to a new city I basically only have family as friends.
Has anyone else dealt with ending a long friendship because things just weren't working out?
How do I handle this?
I would like to cut him out of my life if we aren't friends - at some point removing him from Facebook, etc. How long should I wait before I say something?
What do I say? I just have tons of thoughts rolling in my mind and I don't know how to put them into coherent thoughts that he would understand.
I want it to be the least dramatic thing possible, which is hard to do when dealing with someone like Joe who lives on drama.
If you stuck with me through all that, thank you. My father and husband are tired of hearing about it, but I just need some help in gather things or seeing what other people have done to end something like this. This is the first time for me that action needs to be taken instead of a friendship just naturally splitting up.
Keeping as short as possible. Joe has a habit over the years of finding a mountain in a molehill situation, blowing it out of proportion, then as a result not talking to me for months at a time. These times of "radio silence" as I like to call them always happen of his doing, when most of the time I have been available to work through whatever small disagreement we had.
We have been on talking terms for the past 3 or so years. During which time I have been with my husband (we have been married for the past year.) My friend Joe was always disapproving of any men I was with, except my husband, who he really approves of. This is partly due to some sexual/relationship tention in our past and him trying to act like a "big brother."
That has lead the the most recent issues. Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman, however I knew they were jokes and they were few and far between. He also has a habit of flirting with people in relationships or while he is in a relationship, which he knows I despise. However I thought I was being pushed more into the "bro" category - even though I am female - which is where I prefer to be with male friends.
After I moved out of state about 6 months ago we were talking/texting a few times a week. Within about a week, he made 3 or 4 really inappropriate comments. So inappropriate in fact that I prefer not to say them. I tried to brush them off, but they got too much to handle and were making my husband uncomfortable along with myself. I finally told him calmly in a text that: I'm not sure if you realize but you have been making inappropriate comments and I need you to respect my marriage or we can't really continue to talk. He replied that he didn't know what I was talking about. I gave him a few quick examples and told him I wasn't mad and we could chat on the phone to resolve it. He said he understood and would give us some space.
Radio Silence for 2 weeks. I text asking if he wants to catch up. Nothing. This put the first ding in the friendship. A simple "I need some space" would have sufficed. He even completely ignored my birthday. Us being friends for so many years he knows when my birthday is, and was previously asking me what I wanted as a gift before he stopped talking to me.
He also recently FB messaged me to say, "i know i've stopped talking with you, but i did want to let you know i agree with your point you put on "Mutual_Friend's" facebook...."
I replied saying, "I knew someone would agree, and I'm not sure why we aren't talking since it wasn't that big of a deal to me."
He said "Well it was a big deal to me."
Needless to say, that threw me for a loop. He was the one saying obviously inappropriate comments. Things he would never have said in front of my husband. That was the final nail in the coffin. I know it would be better for myself and my marriage to end this friendship. I am just not sure how to do it. Also the fact that he sees himself as the victim in something that could have been nothing is astonishing. I need a grown-up friendship. If it was a big deal to him, how would not talking to me solve anything?
My husband and father say, "Just don't talk to him." But that will only work for so long. It's now been 2 months since me telling him he was upsetting me. Any time he has not talked to me in the past, he expects that when he does talk to me, we are to immediately be best friends. I don't want this to happen and for my response to be, "Yeah, well about that, we can't be friends."
I would like to end things as calmly as possible, and there is just too much baggage there to continue on with this thing. It makes me sad because we have been great friends and after moving to a new city I basically only have family as friends.
Has anyone else dealt with ending a long friendship because things just weren't working out?
How do I handle this?
I would like to cut him out of my life if we aren't friends - at some point removing him from Facebook, etc. How long should I wait before I say something?
What do I say? I just have tons of thoughts rolling in my mind and I don't know how to put them into coherent thoughts that he would understand.
I want it to be the least dramatic thing possible, which is hard to do when dealing with someone like Joe who lives on drama.
If you stuck with me through all that, thank you. My father and husband are tired of hearing about it, but I just need some help in gather things or seeing what other people have done to end something like this. This is the first time for me that action needs to be taken instead of a friendship just naturally splitting up.
The least dramatic thing to do would be to remove him from your Facebook feed so you don't see his updates, put him in a group that doesn't have permission to see yours, and just... don't reach out to him. If you really want a drama-free ending, that's your best bet.
But what it sounds like you want is to be able to make a "closing argument" to him and get some sort of satisfactory response. That's both an unrealistic goal - seriously, it just never works that way - and is going to cause drama, guaranteed. This is where the old "write a letter, then don't send it" advice comes it - get all those feelings out in private (or stage a monologue for your husband if you have the right sort of relationship with him) but leave Joe out of it.
When he does reach out to you, which it sounds like you will, you could either say "hey, I need to know you heard me about the inappropriate remarks, because we never really established that last time we talked" or just be busy. Really busy. Too busy to talk, too busy to text back and forth, just... busy.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:27 PM on April 6, 2013 [63 favorites]
But what it sounds like you want is to be able to make a "closing argument" to him and get some sort of satisfactory response. That's both an unrealistic goal - seriously, it just never works that way - and is going to cause drama, guaranteed. This is where the old "write a letter, then don't send it" advice comes it - get all those feelings out in private (or stage a monologue for your husband if you have the right sort of relationship with him) but leave Joe out of it.
When he does reach out to you, which it sounds like you will, you could either say "hey, I need to know you heard me about the inappropriate remarks, because we never really established that last time we talked" or just be busy. Really busy. Too busy to talk, too busy to text back and forth, just... busy.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:27 PM on April 6, 2013 [63 favorites]
Best answer: Luckily, he's giving you the perfect opportunity. Do it now. Send him a message via Facebook that says, "I know you aren't talking to me and I'd like you to know that I absolutely agree. Because of your inappropriate and incessant comments my husband and I are no longer comfortable being friends with you or having you in our lives. Given that we aren't in contact I know you feel the same way. Please don't try and reach me again. I will be blocking you from Facebook. Signed, xxx.'
No awkward phone call needed, it's just a follow on what he's already initiated. Any contact from him from now on gets ignored with radio silence. This is a good thing you're doing, he sounds like a loser.
posted by Jubey at 9:31 PM on April 6, 2013 [15 favorites]
No awkward phone call needed, it's just a follow on what he's already initiated. Any contact from him from now on gets ignored with radio silence. This is a good thing you're doing, he sounds like a loser.
posted by Jubey at 9:31 PM on April 6, 2013 [15 favorites]
restless_nomad. Yes. Just fade away. The way you end things is by stopping.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:32 PM on April 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Lesser Shrew at 9:32 PM on April 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
You haven't really pointed out any reasons you might have for preserving this friendship. What were you getting out of it? Your description makes it sound like it's been limping along for a while. And a good friend would know better than to act the way he's acting. A good friend wouldn't make you feel uncomfortable and would apologize if they did so and want to make it up to you.
This guy just doesn't sound like a good friend. And there really isn't any way to "wrap up" dead friendships. You just let them go. It happens sometimes as people change and move on.
Maybe letting this go will be an act of friendship you can do for him; maybe it will help him move on to a healthier place in his life if he can't lean on you like he always has.
You can in fact just cut him off; block FB, stop responding to texts if they show up, no reaching out; there is no Miss Manners rule on how/when to do it. You just do.
If he shows up later in your life, and he apologizes for being a jerk, then maybe you can consider going back to your friendship but that sounds unlikely. He sounds like someone without the faintest idea of what being a friend involves.
Just rip off the bandaid. Let it go, move on with your life. Write down how you feel about it somewhere if you need to, to help you organize your own thoughts and preserve the good memories you want to keep.
posted by emjaybee at 9:35 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
This guy just doesn't sound like a good friend. And there really isn't any way to "wrap up" dead friendships. You just let them go. It happens sometimes as people change and move on.
Maybe letting this go will be an act of friendship you can do for him; maybe it will help him move on to a healthier place in his life if he can't lean on you like he always has.
You can in fact just cut him off; block FB, stop responding to texts if they show up, no reaching out; there is no Miss Manners rule on how/when to do it. You just do.
If he shows up later in your life, and he apologizes for being a jerk, then maybe you can consider going back to your friendship but that sounds unlikely. He sounds like someone without the faintest idea of what being a friend involves.
Just rip off the bandaid. Let it go, move on with your life. Write down how you feel about it somewhere if you need to, to help you organize your own thoughts and preserve the good memories you want to keep.
posted by emjaybee at 9:35 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Oh, and I should add, yes I have had a very similar situation pop up. There was a man I was involved with on and off before being married, we had been friends for years but it verged into romantic territory from time to time, but due to his decision, never really progressed. Anyway when I told him I was engaged, he picked a fight with me over nothing and we stopped talking. After that we only spoke via Facebook message.
Then after I was married, I excitedly told him via message that I was pregnant only to be told what a terrible parent I would make while he then disparaged everything about me in a huge rant. I cut him off with a reply that let him know exactly what I thought of him and then blocked him from Facebook. It's been more than two years, neither of us have tried to get into contact with each other and I consider it one of the smarter choices I've ever made. Toxic people are toxic. Get rid of him.
posted by Jubey at 9:40 PM on April 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
Then after I was married, I excitedly told him via message that I was pregnant only to be told what a terrible parent I would make while he then disparaged everything about me in a huge rant. I cut him off with a reply that let him know exactly what I thought of him and then blocked him from Facebook. It's been more than two years, neither of us have tried to get into contact with each other and I consider it one of the smarter choices I've ever made. Toxic people are toxic. Get rid of him.
posted by Jubey at 9:40 PM on April 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
He knows what he did wrong and, if he doesn't, you telling him explicitly again is not going to be helpful. There's no way to end this with you getting the last word and then closing the door. The door is shut. Just don't open it again when he comes knocking.
Polite here is not engaging him in further upsetting conversation. And, since any conversation would be upsetting to one or both of you, it's not worth engaging in any conversation. You don't owe him an explanation. You've already given it and he's the one who cut off contact...again.
If he doesn't respect your marriage, he doesn't respect you and your choices. It's time for you to go radio silent permanently.
You can start removing and blocking him from FB and other social networks now. No time like the present.
posted by inturnaround at 9:44 PM on April 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
Polite here is not engaging him in further upsetting conversation. And, since any conversation would be upsetting to one or both of you, it's not worth engaging in any conversation. You don't owe him an explanation. You've already given it and he's the one who cut off contact...again.
If he doesn't respect your marriage, he doesn't respect you and your choices. It's time for you to go radio silent permanently.
You can start removing and blocking him from FB and other social networks now. No time like the present.
posted by inturnaround at 9:44 PM on April 6, 2013 [5 favorites]
I know this is very unsatisfying to hear, but...there are situations where you really cannot prove your point or get proper closure. If you are as dedicated to "no drama" as you say, your only sane course of action is to ignore him, now and forever.
posted by calgirl at 9:45 PM on April 6, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by calgirl at 9:45 PM on April 6, 2013 [8 favorites]
I can't agree with Jubey enough on this. This guy sounds like a crappy excuse for a friend, and the fact that he is already not talking to you is the perfect opportunity to just end things without further drama.
Just drop him, in whatever way you deem most appropriate, and move on. No fuss, no back-and-forth, no big final statement needed.
posted by Broseph at 9:47 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Just drop him, in whatever way you deem most appropriate, and move on. No fuss, no back-and-forth, no big final statement needed.
posted by Broseph at 9:47 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
You aren't going to fix him and you aren't going to get the last word.
Spending any more time or energy on this person is a waste of your time. Fade out of his life. Don't answer emails or Facebook messages. If you run into him somewhere and he makes contact say hello then quickly move on.
posted by 26.2 at 9:47 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Spending any more time or energy on this person is a waste of your time. Fade out of his life. Don't answer emails or Facebook messages. If you run into him somewhere and he makes contact say hello then quickly move on.
posted by 26.2 at 9:47 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
Can you just reply to his FB comment and say something like, "If it's that big of a deal to you, I guess we can't be friends." De-friend him and since you live in another state and he seems to hold grudges for a long time, that would probably be the end of it. If you don't want to be friends with him anymore, you can just stop being friends.
I can be a bit erratic with my friends. If they say something I don't like or find offensive, I ignore them and then kind of keep distance for maybe a few days or a couple weeks where I don't initiate contact with them and don't really reply if they reach out to me. And then after I get over my hypersensitivity, nothing has really changed -- I'll reply to them like normal or reach out to them like normal. So I'm a bit like "Joe" in that regard and I think it stems from the fact that I am an introvert -- I value the few close friendships I do have very much, but they take effort for me and when it gets difficult in any way, I need a break. And I don't crave that constant contact, I consider some people my best friends and we talk maybe once a week, others less than that, so what may seem like a bold action to other people (not talking to someone for a week or two) really isn't for me. It's easy to not need to talk to someone I care about for that long.
It sounds like he is being stubborn and you guys just need to talk about it. I imagine, though, he is just sensitive to any sort of rejection and the wording of what you said, though, entirely fair, was a little harsh. The formality of it and the phrase "or we can't really continue to talk" probably stung. But he was the one being inappropriate and he really needs to understand that and you need to talk about it. Sometimes one if my guy friends talks about girls in a way I don't like (he's a great guy, but sex crazy) and I will ignore it and if he doesn't get the message, I'll eventually say, "Dude, stop. You might want to think about getting to know her as a human being." He gets what I mean and immediately sends me three messages apologizing and explaining he didn't mean it how it sounded, etc. I wouldn't say to him, "Stop being sexist or we're not friends anymore." That's not to say I think you were wrong at all in what you said to him, but the thing is, you guys were already making flirtatious/inappropriate comments and it doesn't sound like you made it clear after the first one that a line had been crossed and you continued to talk. He then made three more comments, probably with everything seeming fine, before you dropped the ultimatum. If that's how it went down, then there is a blurry line that was crossed for you and he didn't realize it and probably felt embarrassed and rejected by your reaction.
The fact that he messaged you and said, "I'm not talking to you but..." makes me think he is quite weird and dramatic, on top of any sensitivity and or introversion issues. But if you value his friendship, you might want to try to at least talk about things. He replied to your FB message and he initiated a message to you. He wants to talk about it. He's just being dramatic. And if he goes back into radio silence, drop it, and then when he inevitably reaches out to you again, tell him you find his games exhausting and you are done. He will listen, I'm sure.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:49 PM on April 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
I can be a bit erratic with my friends. If they say something I don't like or find offensive, I ignore them and then kind of keep distance for maybe a few days or a couple weeks where I don't initiate contact with them and don't really reply if they reach out to me. And then after I get over my hypersensitivity, nothing has really changed -- I'll reply to them like normal or reach out to them like normal. So I'm a bit like "Joe" in that regard and I think it stems from the fact that I am an introvert -- I value the few close friendships I do have very much, but they take effort for me and when it gets difficult in any way, I need a break. And I don't crave that constant contact, I consider some people my best friends and we talk maybe once a week, others less than that, so what may seem like a bold action to other people (not talking to someone for a week or two) really isn't for me. It's easy to not need to talk to someone I care about for that long.
It sounds like he is being stubborn and you guys just need to talk about it. I imagine, though, he is just sensitive to any sort of rejection and the wording of what you said, though, entirely fair, was a little harsh. The formality of it and the phrase "or we can't really continue to talk" probably stung. But he was the one being inappropriate and he really needs to understand that and you need to talk about it. Sometimes one if my guy friends talks about girls in a way I don't like (he's a great guy, but sex crazy) and I will ignore it and if he doesn't get the message, I'll eventually say, "Dude, stop. You might want to think about getting to know her as a human being." He gets what I mean and immediately sends me three messages apologizing and explaining he didn't mean it how it sounded, etc. I wouldn't say to him, "Stop being sexist or we're not friends anymore." That's not to say I think you were wrong at all in what you said to him, but the thing is, you guys were already making flirtatious/inappropriate comments and it doesn't sound like you made it clear after the first one that a line had been crossed and you continued to talk. He then made three more comments, probably with everything seeming fine, before you dropped the ultimatum. If that's how it went down, then there is a blurry line that was crossed for you and he didn't realize it and probably felt embarrassed and rejected by your reaction.
The fact that he messaged you and said, "I'm not talking to you but..." makes me think he is quite weird and dramatic, on top of any sensitivity and or introversion issues. But if you value his friendship, you might want to try to at least talk about things. He replied to your FB message and he initiated a message to you. He wants to talk about it. He's just being dramatic. And if he goes back into radio silence, drop it, and then when he inevitably reaches out to you again, tell him you find his games exhausting and you are done. He will listen, I'm sure.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:49 PM on April 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
It sounds like you need an endpoint to all this without worrying about the possibility that he'll call in a few months and want to be best buds again. I would just send a message similar to what Jubey suggested and unfriend him on Facebook. I've done that before and it's pretty effective at just ending things.
posted by WorkingMyWayHome at 9:49 PM on April 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by WorkingMyWayHome at 9:49 PM on April 6, 2013 [2 favorites]
The first thing that jumped out at me was this:
"...when most of the time I have been available to work through whatever small disagreement we had. "
Uh. I can't think of ANY good longterm friends I have even minor disagreements with regularly - more like never! People who give me headaches, even minor ones, are not worth my time (or theirs!) because there are literally billions of people in the world to befriend. A fair percentage of those people are lovely and someone you mutually vibe with.
Reading your whole description of your relationship with this man, as a fellow married woman, made me really really squicky to the point of feeling physically ill. Yes, I see myself in it, but also, I have grown a lot since that time in my life and I would never ever ever EVER be in this much intimate contact with another person, especially one I had a history with, now that I am grown-up and with the BEST man for me on Earth.
I hope I am approaching this correctly for you to hear it, and not insulting you or anything like that. I'm being nakedly honest and entirely well-meaning.
You were/are too close for this person for what really matters to you and is nearest and dearest to you to survive in the same atmosphere. Would you give up your happy home life, your ambitions, your other pleasant relationships for the drama you have with this dude? Because if you continue to be foolish about crap like this, it will impact your life in ways you can't conceive of right now.
This is a time for you to put down childhood things, and grow up.
He's someone from your past. Your relationship has taken its course. By whatever means are most gentile and civilized for you, Move On With Your Wonderful Life.
Whatever is going on here, you have a lot that is precious. Drop this as a concern entirely, and instead focus soley on stuff that makes you happy.
I wish you the best. Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 9:58 PM on April 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
"...when most of the time I have been available to work through whatever small disagreement we had. "
Uh. I can't think of ANY good longterm friends I have even minor disagreements with regularly - more like never! People who give me headaches, even minor ones, are not worth my time (or theirs!) because there are literally billions of people in the world to befriend. A fair percentage of those people are lovely and someone you mutually vibe with.
Reading your whole description of your relationship with this man, as a fellow married woman, made me really really squicky to the point of feeling physically ill. Yes, I see myself in it, but also, I have grown a lot since that time in my life and I would never ever ever EVER be in this much intimate contact with another person, especially one I had a history with, now that I am grown-up and with the BEST man for me on Earth.
I hope I am approaching this correctly for you to hear it, and not insulting you or anything like that. I'm being nakedly honest and entirely well-meaning.
You were/are too close for this person for what really matters to you and is nearest and dearest to you to survive in the same atmosphere. Would you give up your happy home life, your ambitions, your other pleasant relationships for the drama you have with this dude? Because if you continue to be foolish about crap like this, it will impact your life in ways you can't conceive of right now.
This is a time for you to put down childhood things, and grow up.
He's someone from your past. Your relationship has taken its course. By whatever means are most gentile and civilized for you, Move On With Your Wonderful Life.
Whatever is going on here, you have a lot that is precious. Drop this as a concern entirely, and instead focus soley on stuff that makes you happy.
I wish you the best. Good luck!
posted by jbenben at 9:58 PM on April 6, 2013 [4 favorites]
Let me just clarify about one thing...
My (second) marriage is so good, and keeping it that way takes attention. Not like work or anything hard, but focus. I have to make it a priority if I want things to stay as awesome as when the relationship began.
Point blank, especially now that we have a child, I don't have time for anyone else's bullshit. A tiny bit to keep me functioning well in my community? Sure! But a whole lotta time for one squeaky wheel over and over again? No. Fucking. Way.
I prefer to spend my time with my family, or doing cool things, or ANYTHING positive that adds to my life and does not negatively impact me - and therefore my family. In fact, if I want things to go well in my life, I pretty much have to spend all of my efforts on Cool Things, otherwise I become a drag on myself and others.
I hope I've made my case. Don't waste what you have to give on this drain, spend what you've got on the folks and things that give back to you without taking more than you're getting back.
posted by jbenben at 10:10 PM on April 6, 2013 [7 favorites]
My (second) marriage is so good, and keeping it that way takes attention. Not like work or anything hard, but focus. I have to make it a priority if I want things to stay as awesome as when the relationship began.
Point blank, especially now that we have a child, I don't have time for anyone else's bullshit. A tiny bit to keep me functioning well in my community? Sure! But a whole lotta time for one squeaky wheel over and over again? No. Fucking. Way.
I prefer to spend my time with my family, or doing cool things, or ANYTHING positive that adds to my life and does not negatively impact me - and therefore my family. In fact, if I want things to go well in my life, I pretty much have to spend all of my efforts on Cool Things, otherwise I become a drag on myself and others.
I hope I've made my case. Don't waste what you have to give on this drain, spend what you've got on the folks and things that give back to you without taking more than you're getting back.
posted by jbenben at 10:10 PM on April 6, 2013 [7 favorites]
Your father and husband are right, just stop talking to him. When he decides to come back, you just don't reply, because you're not talking to him. Eventually he will give up. There is no point trying to have a finishing conversation that ends the relationship, because while it might end the relationship, it guarantees drama and hurt feelings. Its over, I agree that he is carrying a torch for you, which means there is no way to end the relationship gracefully.
posted by Joh at 10:18 PM on April 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by Joh at 10:18 PM on April 6, 2013 [6 favorites]
Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman
This is a bit weird. There's no objective standard that means certain combinations of words aren't allowed because you are a woman and married. You mention that your husband didn't like the comments; that also isn't the important thing. What matters is that you didn't like his comments. That's reason enough, and he should respect that. You're right to think that he isn't a friend because he isn't hearing what's important to you.
I agree that just cutting off contact is the way to go. Anything else just adds fuel to the bonfire of the drama that he has been carefully building over the years.
posted by medusa at 10:47 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
This is a bit weird. There's no objective standard that means certain combinations of words aren't allowed because you are a woman and married. You mention that your husband didn't like the comments; that also isn't the important thing. What matters is that you didn't like his comments. That's reason enough, and he should respect that. You're right to think that he isn't a friend because he isn't hearing what's important to you.
I agree that just cutting off contact is the way to go. Anything else just adds fuel to the bonfire of the drama that he has been carefully building over the years.
posted by medusa at 10:47 PM on April 6, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you don't want drama, then just stop talking. He can try contacting you, don't respond. Pretty simple. Send all his emails to trash, block him on Facebook, move on with your life.
A big final argument, where you lay out what you think of him and why and all the ways he has wronged you, is pretty much guaranteed drama. But as restless_nomad said, it sounds like this not-talking business has got you antsy and you want to end things with a big flourish. Just know that it is not the non-dramatic way out, and is unlikely to bring any resolution or closure.
posted by Anonymous at 11:24 PM on April 6, 2013
A big final argument, where you lay out what you think of him and why and all the ways he has wronged you, is pretty much guaranteed drama. But as restless_nomad said, it sounds like this not-talking business has got you antsy and you want to end things with a big flourish. Just know that it is not the non-dramatic way out, and is unlikely to bring any resolution or closure.
posted by Anonymous at 11:24 PM on April 6, 2013
If you bring this up with someone who lives on Drama, then you're going to get a Dramatic response from them. That's how Dramatic people work - they seize on the molehill and turn it into a mountain. You've said yourself that this is Joe's behaviour type.
Your options are as follows:
1] Say nothing and let this fade, and also remove ways for Joe to contact you. This is the least dramatic way to handle things.
2] Say something that is primed to Cause Drama to the Dramatic person. This is going to cause trouble.
I totally understand the impulse to make the other person understand. It's natural that you want to be heard and understood. And it's completely OK to want that. The problem lies with the fact that Joe will hear you and then instantly turn it back onto you. He's very likely not capable of hearing you in the way that you want to be heard. Giving him a molehill will get it turned into a mountain.
I have a long time friend who I'm in the process of removing from my life. This individual refers to themself as a Drama Queen. And I'm really sick of their Drama. I've decided to do the slow fade thing - no answering calls, slowly responding to text messages, etc. I'd love to be able to tell them about the situation, but they aren't going to change and everything I say will be turned into Drama and Guilt Trips and Diatribes About How I'm A Bad Person (and also about How They're A Bad Person, just for some extra spice). I know this because this is how they behave. It's their standard operating system. It's frustrating that I can't just sit them down and explain things to them because then maybe something could be salvaged. But they love Drama more than they love me. Or perhaps they don't know anything other than Drama any more.
Handle things by letting Joe just float away. Let him go on his way down the River of Life and start paddling your canoe down a different tributary. Regarding social media, I'd wait until after Joe contacts you again and maybe starts to get the hint before unfriending him, but right now, hide your updates and such from him and hide his from you. Remove him from your line of sight and remove yourself from his. If he notices that you've unfriended him, it will likely create drama, but simply not appearing in his feed is less likely to cause trouble.
When he does get back into contact with you, be civil but vague. Imagine he's a person you met on a bus, or in the grocery store queue, who you're chatting with to pass the time. Don't ask personal questions and don't answer any of his. If you stop feeding his Drama Furnace, he'll get bored pretty quickly and go on to find someone else to fuel it.
I think it's possible that Joe either doesn't know that his behaviour was inappropriate or he does know and just doesn't care. Or maybe he's not adult enough to realise that when dealing with other people, you have to take their concept of what is and isn't appropriate into account too. It seems like the first option isn't the case because you tried telling him and, surprise surprise, he went off in a strop. You can't really do a lot about the second two options. Joe would likely love it if you flip out at him. That's Drama to the power of 50. He can do so much more with that than he can with nothing, i.e. you just fading out of his life.
We're pretty big on asserting yourself and being clear with people here on Ask, and it's generally a good idea to do that. Sometimes though, it's better to be flexible than strong. A tree that can bend in the storm is more likely to survive than one that faces the full weight of the wind. I understand the desire to have things out and speak your piece. But that's very probably not going to work and will definitely not end things politely.
It's often suggested that you write a letter to the individual but don't send it, to get all of the feelings out. that works, but I find it more fun to actually verbalise the feelings, maybe to a picture of the person. Have a good angry rant and then when you're done, think of the fun times that you had with Joe and thank him for them. Then take a deep breath and go on with your life.
posted by Solomon at 1:28 AM on April 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Your options are as follows:
1] Say nothing and let this fade, and also remove ways for Joe to contact you. This is the least dramatic way to handle things.
2] Say something that is primed to Cause Drama to the Dramatic person. This is going to cause trouble.
I totally understand the impulse to make the other person understand. It's natural that you want to be heard and understood. And it's completely OK to want that. The problem lies with the fact that Joe will hear you and then instantly turn it back onto you. He's very likely not capable of hearing you in the way that you want to be heard. Giving him a molehill will get it turned into a mountain.
I have a long time friend who I'm in the process of removing from my life. This individual refers to themself as a Drama Queen. And I'm really sick of their Drama. I've decided to do the slow fade thing - no answering calls, slowly responding to text messages, etc. I'd love to be able to tell them about the situation, but they aren't going to change and everything I say will be turned into Drama and Guilt Trips and Diatribes About How I'm A Bad Person (and also about How They're A Bad Person, just for some extra spice). I know this because this is how they behave. It's their standard operating system. It's frustrating that I can't just sit them down and explain things to them because then maybe something could be salvaged. But they love Drama more than they love me. Or perhaps they don't know anything other than Drama any more.
Handle things by letting Joe just float away. Let him go on his way down the River of Life and start paddling your canoe down a different tributary. Regarding social media, I'd wait until after Joe contacts you again and maybe starts to get the hint before unfriending him, but right now, hide your updates and such from him and hide his from you. Remove him from your line of sight and remove yourself from his. If he notices that you've unfriended him, it will likely create drama, but simply not appearing in his feed is less likely to cause trouble.
When he does get back into contact with you, be civil but vague. Imagine he's a person you met on a bus, or in the grocery store queue, who you're chatting with to pass the time. Don't ask personal questions and don't answer any of his. If you stop feeding his Drama Furnace, he'll get bored pretty quickly and go on to find someone else to fuel it.
I think it's possible that Joe either doesn't know that his behaviour was inappropriate or he does know and just doesn't care. Or maybe he's not adult enough to realise that when dealing with other people, you have to take their concept of what is and isn't appropriate into account too. It seems like the first option isn't the case because you tried telling him and, surprise surprise, he went off in a strop. You can't really do a lot about the second two options. Joe would likely love it if you flip out at him. That's Drama to the power of 50. He can do so much more with that than he can with nothing, i.e. you just fading out of his life.
We're pretty big on asserting yourself and being clear with people here on Ask, and it's generally a good idea to do that. Sometimes though, it's better to be flexible than strong. A tree that can bend in the storm is more likely to survive than one that faces the full weight of the wind. I understand the desire to have things out and speak your piece. But that's very probably not going to work and will definitely not end things politely.
It's often suggested that you write a letter to the individual but don't send it, to get all of the feelings out. that works, but I find it more fun to actually verbalise the feelings, maybe to a picture of the person. Have a good angry rant and then when you're done, think of the fun times that you had with Joe and thank him for them. Then take a deep breath and go on with your life.
posted by Solomon at 1:28 AM on April 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: i would just do the fade out like so many others are suggesting if you don't want drama. when he does reach out i really like something like what Miko said here as a response:
I feel that I can't maintain a friendship without a basic feeling of respect for my marriage and an observation of my boundaries [i changed the pronouns to "I" & "my"]
posted by wildflower at 2:13 AM on April 7, 2013
I feel that I can't maintain a friendship without a basic feeling of respect for my marriage and an observation of my boundaries [i changed the pronouns to "I" & "my"]
posted by wildflower at 2:13 AM on April 7, 2013
You already told him what bothered you. Now you stop talking to him, even when he texts/calls/e-mails you. You just don't respond or pick up. Seriously.
Trust me, I've cut bad friends out of my life several times and that's what it takes. It seems like you want a way to cut him off without ever just not talking to him anymore, but that's literally logically impossible. If your interactions become a bunch of instances of you saying "we're not friends now" then you have not cut him off and have even more drama than you did. You said the part that was necessary and he'll get it once you stop responding. If you keep responding why would he think you no longer want to talk to him?
In other words, I know you have this urge that tells you that you just can't stop talking to him, but that's exactly what you need to do.
posted by Nattie at 2:15 AM on April 7, 2013
Trust me, I've cut bad friends out of my life several times and that's what it takes. It seems like you want a way to cut him off without ever just not talking to him anymore, but that's literally logically impossible. If your interactions become a bunch of instances of you saying "we're not friends now" then you have not cut him off and have even more drama than you did. You said the part that was necessary and he'll get it once you stop responding. If you keep responding why would he think you no longer want to talk to him?
In other words, I know you have this urge that tells you that you just can't stop talking to him, but that's exactly what you need to do.
posted by Nattie at 2:15 AM on April 7, 2013
Ok, i've known more than a couple guys like this
My friend Joe was always disapproving of any men I was with, except my husband, who he really approves of. This is partly due to some sexual/relationship tention in our past and him trying to act like a "big brother."
This is possessive, unhealthy, and slightly disturbing. Seriously, sit down and think about this for a minute. The "big brother" thing is in the same territory as that creepy "dad approving of the guy his daughter is dating even though she's an adult" thing but even worse since he doesn't even have the flimsy excuse of being related to you. He's basically saying "my judgement is superior to yours when it comes to who you're in a relationship with", and probably with some undertones of "because you're a woman, and women are overtaken by their emotions and easily mislead by shitty partners bla bla bla". You know, that attitude. yea.
Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman, however I knew they were jokes and they were few and far between. He also has a habit of flirting with people in relationships or while he is in a relationship, which he knows I despise.
This all sounds like boundary crasher stuff, but when taken with the sentence from before it begins to paint the picture of a "nice guy" who has a sort of internal shrine of you, and is convinced that he could do so much better for you than anyone you've been dating, etc. I'm going to go so far as to say he probably either pretends to like your husband, or thinks your a terrible match and that he can pick you up after you guys break up. Serious, awful "nice guy"/friendzone garbage is beginning to stink even with the lid of the can closed here.
Within about a week, he made 3 or 4 really inappropriate comments. ... they got too much to handle and were making my husband uncomfortable along with myself.
The red alert siren is only getting louder. More boundary crashing.
"I'm not sure why we aren't talking since it wasn't that big of a deal to me."
He said "Well it was a big deal to me."
Now it's getting in to shitty manipulator territory. He's basically trying to get you to apologize for "hurting his feelings" by calling him out for being way out of line. Wonderful. I'm really happy you see it this way too though.
I don't want this to happen and for my response to be, "Yeah, well about that, we can't be friends."
What? this is the perfect way to do this. Delete him on everything, and if he tries to contact you outside of that just go "yea, you blew it, this is over". This it the lowest drama way out of this by far.
He's essentially trolling you at this point, trying to get you to engage him in a battle that has absolutely no purpose so that he can try and gaslight you, rewrite the story, or get you to admit that he's right in some way. Any sort of acknowledgement beyond the first response saying you're not going to talk to him anymore is so incredibly unproductive that i can't even come up with a good smart ass analogy for it.
If you doubt yourself at all in doing this, just read back through those specific moments i quoted. That is egregious shit, and the perfect type of situation where there's nothing better to do than drop someone like a lit firecracker.
posted by emptythought at 3:47 AM on April 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
My friend Joe was always disapproving of any men I was with, except my husband, who he really approves of. This is partly due to some sexual/relationship tention in our past and him trying to act like a "big brother."
This is possessive, unhealthy, and slightly disturbing. Seriously, sit down and think about this for a minute. The "big brother" thing is in the same territory as that creepy "dad approving of the guy his daughter is dating even though she's an adult" thing but even worse since he doesn't even have the flimsy excuse of being related to you. He's basically saying "my judgement is superior to yours when it comes to who you're in a relationship with", and probably with some undertones of "because you're a woman, and women are overtaken by their emotions and easily mislead by shitty partners bla bla bla". You know, that attitude. yea.
Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman, however I knew they were jokes and they were few and far between. He also has a habit of flirting with people in relationships or while he is in a relationship, which he knows I despise.
This all sounds like boundary crasher stuff, but when taken with the sentence from before it begins to paint the picture of a "nice guy" who has a sort of internal shrine of you, and is convinced that he could do so much better for you than anyone you've been dating, etc. I'm going to go so far as to say he probably either pretends to like your husband, or thinks your a terrible match and that he can pick you up after you guys break up. Serious, awful "nice guy"/friendzone garbage is beginning to stink even with the lid of the can closed here.
Within about a week, he made 3 or 4 really inappropriate comments. ... they got too much to handle and were making my husband uncomfortable along with myself.
The red alert siren is only getting louder. More boundary crashing.
"I'm not sure why we aren't talking since it wasn't that big of a deal to me."
He said "Well it was a big deal to me."
Now it's getting in to shitty manipulator territory. He's basically trying to get you to apologize for "hurting his feelings" by calling him out for being way out of line. Wonderful. I'm really happy you see it this way too though.
I don't want this to happen and for my response to be, "Yeah, well about that, we can't be friends."
What? this is the perfect way to do this. Delete him on everything, and if he tries to contact you outside of that just go "yea, you blew it, this is over". This it the lowest drama way out of this by far.
He's essentially trolling you at this point, trying to get you to engage him in a battle that has absolutely no purpose so that he can try and gaslight you, rewrite the story, or get you to admit that he's right in some way. Any sort of acknowledgement beyond the first response saying you're not going to talk to him anymore is so incredibly unproductive that i can't even come up with a good smart ass analogy for it.
If you doubt yourself at all in doing this, just read back through those specific moments i quoted. That is egregious shit, and the perfect type of situation where there's nothing better to do than drop someone like a lit firecracker.
posted by emptythought at 3:47 AM on April 7, 2013 [7 favorites]
Best answer: If you don't take a clear and unequivocal stand now, you sound like the kind of person who will give Joe the benefit of the doubt the next time he inserts himself into your life after radio silence. It's three or six months from now, when the edge of what he did has worn off, and you think maybe you over-reacted, and try to do the right thing and work things out. So you relent and let him back in. And then you're right back being the bad guy the next time Joe pulls his shit.
So I think the healthiest and most drama-free way of handling this is to be very explicit with Joe now and to not make yourself available for any reply or re-opening of the conversation. So to address restless_nomad's point, you're not ending things in the hopes of getting the "satisfactory response" of him recognizing his bad behavior and changing. You're ending things so that you can recall this as the moment in time when you took control out of his hands and made the healthy decision for you and your marriage. Then you can ignore him with complete exoneration.
I've been in similar friendship/lover dynamics and learned that the important question in them is not "Is ending this friendship too harsh?" It's "What will I do if he circles back contrite and promising to do better?" Because that's the pattern you need to break, and that's the situation you need to have a plan for. So write Jubey's script and then close down all entry points from this guy that you can. When he does try to reengage, you need to tell yourself that he is disrespecting your boundaries (this, this is his misbehavior), you were clear about no contact, and that ignoring him is the plan you committed to.
posted by cocoagirl at 4:19 AM on April 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
So I think the healthiest and most drama-free way of handling this is to be very explicit with Joe now and to not make yourself available for any reply or re-opening of the conversation. So to address restless_nomad's point, you're not ending things in the hopes of getting the "satisfactory response" of him recognizing his bad behavior and changing. You're ending things so that you can recall this as the moment in time when you took control out of his hands and made the healthy decision for you and your marriage. Then you can ignore him with complete exoneration.
I've been in similar friendship/lover dynamics and learned that the important question in them is not "Is ending this friendship too harsh?" It's "What will I do if he circles back contrite and promising to do better?" Because that's the pattern you need to break, and that's the situation you need to have a plan for. So write Jubey's script and then close down all entry points from this guy that you can. When he does try to reengage, you need to tell yourself that he is disrespecting your boundaries (this, this is his misbehavior), you were clear about no contact, and that ignoring him is the plan you committed to.
posted by cocoagirl at 4:19 AM on April 7, 2013 [6 favorites]
During this time I have realized my life will be much more drama-free to end the friendship, but I would like to do so with the least drama, while still getting myself heard.
There are no answers that you require from him. The while getting myself heard point is probably what keeps you attached to him. You have the need to be heard. And you don't feel like he hears you.
If your goal is to end the friendship, why do you care if he listens? You're stated goal is to remove him from your life. Thus, any further interaction only perpetuates the relationship.
How do you end the friendship with the least-drama? Consider it to be over. Let it go. Do not respond to him. If you see him, say a polite hello, and then go about your life as you do with most of the other people in the world.
One thing to consider is that we make friends because of similar circumstances, either we are in the same place, or we believe the same things, or we do the same activities. Yet those are all moving targets. Each day, you are growing and changing as a person. And those small changes compound over time, to the point where the previous version of you is little more than a memory.
And the same on his side. You have become different people, with different interests and lives. The overall theme of your post is this friendship is not working for me. Ok, accept that and move on in your life.
Many of the other posters were right on when they said, from his side, this seems to be driven by some lingering attachment. Whilst you have moved on and created a new married life, it does not sound like your former friend has. That's his road to walk, really. For you, the implication may be that you enjoy the fact that he desires/desired you. Often, we like how the people that desire us make us feel – we see ourselves through their eyes as desirable, and that's a great feeling! This may or may not be correct – and if it is, it may or may not be something you are conscious of. Yet, it may be there, and it may be what is driving your desire to remain connected to him.
Finally, you must remember that negative attention is still attention. I have had a few friends who, for whatever reason, acquire anti-social behaviours and ways of being. It does little good to correct them or chastise them. The reason that they have adopted anti-social behaviours is often out of attention-seeking, thus to connect with them in even negative ways, achieves their goal of receiving attention.
There's nothing here to be won. What I hear is that it's time to let this relationship fade into the past, so that he becomes one of the many, many people in your life that you used to know.
posted by nickrussell at 5:12 AM on April 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
There are no answers that you require from him. The while getting myself heard point is probably what keeps you attached to him. You have the need to be heard. And you don't feel like he hears you.
If your goal is to end the friendship, why do you care if he listens? You're stated goal is to remove him from your life. Thus, any further interaction only perpetuates the relationship.
How do you end the friendship with the least-drama? Consider it to be over. Let it go. Do not respond to him. If you see him, say a polite hello, and then go about your life as you do with most of the other people in the world.
One thing to consider is that we make friends because of similar circumstances, either we are in the same place, or we believe the same things, or we do the same activities. Yet those are all moving targets. Each day, you are growing and changing as a person. And those small changes compound over time, to the point where the previous version of you is little more than a memory.
And the same on his side. You have become different people, with different interests and lives. The overall theme of your post is this friendship is not working for me. Ok, accept that and move on in your life.
Many of the other posters were right on when they said, from his side, this seems to be driven by some lingering attachment. Whilst you have moved on and created a new married life, it does not sound like your former friend has. That's his road to walk, really. For you, the implication may be that you enjoy the fact that he desires/desired you. Often, we like how the people that desire us make us feel – we see ourselves through their eyes as desirable, and that's a great feeling! This may or may not be correct – and if it is, it may or may not be something you are conscious of. Yet, it may be there, and it may be what is driving your desire to remain connected to him.
Finally, you must remember that negative attention is still attention. I have had a few friends who, for whatever reason, acquire anti-social behaviours and ways of being. It does little good to correct them or chastise them. The reason that they have adopted anti-social behaviours is often out of attention-seeking, thus to connect with them in even negative ways, achieves their goal of receiving attention.
There's nothing here to be won. What I hear is that it's time to let this relationship fade into the past, so that he becomes one of the many, many people in your life that you used to know.
posted by nickrussell at 5:12 AM on April 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't want this to happen and for my response to be, "Yeah, well about that, we can't be friends."
Why not? He sounds like a crappy friend. Is it because you don't want to be reactive? Then just do what everyone's suggesting and block him on social media. If you want you can drop him a note saying that if it's a big deal to him that you want him to respect your boundaries, then you can't be friends. Otherwise just do the fade.
posted by gaspode at 5:17 AM on April 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
Why not? He sounds like a crappy friend. Is it because you don't want to be reactive? Then just do what everyone's suggesting and block him on social media. If you want you can drop him a note saying that if it's a big deal to him that you want him to respect your boundaries, then you can't be friends. Otherwise just do the fade.
posted by gaspode at 5:17 AM on April 7, 2013 [2 favorites]
My Grandfather (your Great-Grandfather) always said: The more you stir up shit the more it stinks. Let it sit.
Love you, kiddo!
posted by The Deej at 5:33 AM on April 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
Love you, kiddo!
posted by The Deej at 5:33 AM on April 7, 2013 [8 favorites]
We're all allowed to be jerks if we want to, but social behaviors come with a price. Basically this all comes down to, Joe has never had face up to the consequences of his actions: the price for which is the loss of the friendship.
There are two separate paths you could take here: one is to keep going the way you have for the last seven years, where Joe makes inappropriate remarks, then acts all insulted when you call him on it and pulls his silent-treatment sulking act, then eventually wanders right back into your life as if there was never anything wrong. (And I'll bet that each time you've accepted him back, those remarks are a little worse than the last time, right?)
The other path is the only one without drama: merely extend his own silent treatment unto eternity.... de-friend (not merely block) him on facebook and all other social media, and refuse/block all phone calls, emails, texts, etc.; if he tries writing a paper letter, trash it unread. If he tries to get some mutual friend to pass on a message, tell that mutual friend that you do not want to hear it, and walk away. The only way to avoid all Joe's drama is to refuse all contact with him.
posted by easily confused at 6:40 AM on April 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
There are two separate paths you could take here: one is to keep going the way you have for the last seven years, where Joe makes inappropriate remarks, then acts all insulted when you call him on it and pulls his silent-treatment sulking act, then eventually wanders right back into your life as if there was never anything wrong. (And I'll bet that each time you've accepted him back, those remarks are a little worse than the last time, right?)
The other path is the only one without drama: merely extend his own silent treatment unto eternity.... de-friend (not merely block) him on facebook and all other social media, and refuse/block all phone calls, emails, texts, etc.; if he tries writing a paper letter, trash it unread. If he tries to get some mutual friend to pass on a message, tell that mutual friend that you do not want to hear it, and walk away. The only way to avoid all Joe's drama is to refuse all contact with him.
posted by easily confused at 6:40 AM on April 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I think the people who are advising you to do the slow fade don't realize that he keeps coming back into your life. I think you're right that you need to make your feelings absolutely clear to avoid more problems in the future.
I had to cut someone off who was making inappropriate comments to me and said pretty much exactly what Jubey suggested and never responded to him again. Even still this person has continued to contact me over the years--lately he's been giving me endorsements for my LinkedIn skills as a way to try to get me to engage with him.
So be prepared that having this conversation may not make him go away completely, but for me it made me feel more resolved in not responding. Once you tell someone, "I don't ever want to speak with you again," it's a lot easier to see them for what they are--which is someone trying to stir shit up--if and when they contact you again.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 7:45 AM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I had to cut someone off who was making inappropriate comments to me and said pretty much exactly what Jubey suggested and never responded to him again. Even still this person has continued to contact me over the years--lately he's been giving me endorsements for my LinkedIn skills as a way to try to get me to engage with him.
So be prepared that having this conversation may not make him go away completely, but for me it made me feel more resolved in not responding. Once you tell someone, "I don't ever want to speak with you again," it's a lot easier to see them for what they are--which is someone trying to stir shit up--if and when they contact you again.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 7:45 AM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sounds like you have two contradictory desires here: 1) to end the relationship with as little drama as possible, and 2) to be heard. You can achieve the first one quite easily by just not communicating with him, not responding to his e-mails, not picking up the phone, and either blocking him on FB or putting him on an extremely limited profile (can be useful if you think defriending him would cause more drama) etc.. He might well pop up in a few months and want to be friends again, but just because he wants it is no reason to give it to him if you don't feel the same way.
But, the second one is probably beyond your reach, no matter what you do. Drama people can't hear anyone else above the huge "mememememeMEEE!" that is always echoing through their brains. Letting go of the desire to be understood by him, or to "fix" him will set you free.
posted by rpfields at 8:43 AM on April 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
But, the second one is probably beyond your reach, no matter what you do. Drama people can't hear anyone else above the huge "mememememeMEEE!" that is always echoing through their brains. Letting go of the desire to be understood by him, or to "fix" him will set you free.
posted by rpfields at 8:43 AM on April 7, 2013 [3 favorites]
You don't need his approval or permission to quit talking to him. If you like, you could send him a note saying that your relationship involves more wear and tear than you want to deal with, and ask him to just leave you alone. After that, don't respond to him....and for pete's sake, defriend him from your facebook page.
Don't try to broker a mutual agreement. He will author his own terms no matter what you decide. Common courtesy is all you owe him.
You don't have to assume evil intent on his part, but you may profitably suspect that he's complaining about sour grapes, so to speak. If he's indeed carrying a secret torch for you, then he's in a sad state, and I think it would be cruel to jerk him around. So while a clean break would be best for you, it may be painful for him. Even so, the alternative, constant ongoing drama (for him) is probably worse. Anyhow, it's no good trying to figure all his angles.
Enough is enough.
posted by mule98J at 8:55 AM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
Don't try to broker a mutual agreement. He will author his own terms no matter what you decide. Common courtesy is all you owe him.
You don't have to assume evil intent on his part, but you may profitably suspect that he's complaining about sour grapes, so to speak. If he's indeed carrying a secret torch for you, then he's in a sad state, and I think it would be cruel to jerk him around. So while a clean break would be best for you, it may be painful for him. Even so, the alternative, constant ongoing drama (for him) is probably worse. Anyhow, it's no good trying to figure all his angles.
Enough is enough.
posted by mule98J at 8:55 AM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
During this time I have realized my life will be much more drama-free to end the friendship, but I would like to do so with the least drama, while still getting myself heard.
If he were capable of actually hearing you, you wouldn't be ending the friendship. "Being heard" during a break-up of a relationship where "lack of being heard" is the reason for the break-up is an inherently unrealistic expectation. Let it go.
posted by jaguar at 9:01 AM on April 7, 2013 [9 favorites]
If he were capable of actually hearing you, you wouldn't be ending the friendship. "Being heard" during a break-up of a relationship where "lack of being heard" is the reason for the break-up is an inherently unrealistic expectation. Let it go.
posted by jaguar at 9:01 AM on April 7, 2013 [9 favorites]
I think the only thing you're doing wrong here is that when he decides to break radio silence (or has in the past,) it's instant friends again. Wrong. He turned it into a big stink; he needs to feel awkward about it and make the effort to repair things. He needs to know that that shit damages friendships.
So, if it were me, I wouldn't make an outright "sorry, you're done" remark if/when he decides to graciously allow you to be his friend again. But I would just be... kind of cooly polite, like I would be to a work acquaintance I was never that close with. "Hey, hows the dogs, kids, etc". kind of nice, but not "let's get together" nice.
If he handles that gracefully, then maybe you could keep being his friend-but-not-close-friend without excess drama. If not, then he'll say something that will be a pretty handy proximate cause for you to break off the friendship.
posted by ctmf at 9:07 AM on April 7, 2013
So, if it were me, I wouldn't make an outright "sorry, you're done" remark if/when he decides to graciously allow you to be his friend again. But I would just be... kind of cooly polite, like I would be to a work acquaintance I was never that close with. "Hey, hows the dogs, kids, etc". kind of nice, but not "let's get together" nice.
If he handles that gracefully, then maybe you could keep being his friend-but-not-close-friend without excess drama. If not, then he'll say something that will be a pretty handy proximate cause for you to break off the friendship.
posted by ctmf at 9:07 AM on April 7, 2013
Response by poster: That's not to say I think you were wrong at all in what you said to him, but the thing is, you guys were already making flirtatious/inappropriate comments.
and
Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman
To clarify, I think flirtation has to to do with a wink and a nod, and sometimes responses. I always tried to change the subject or mention my husbad. To be clear these were outright statements that were clearly offensive.
The most mild example, out of the blue he said, "No offense, I may have found a girl who has a better ass than you."
UMMM What??? Even as a joke, that's not okay. So yes, also to clarify with other people, he does hold a torch for me, but I thought it was in the past and then all of these sorts of comments (and worse) flooded in within a week. They really caught me off guard, I wish I would have been able to say "dude stop" but most of the time I changed the subject, while making it clear that my husband is the only one whose opinion matters, then wouldn't respond.
-----
I think the people who are advising you to do the slow fade don't realize that he keeps coming back into your life. I think you're right that you need to make your feelings absolutely clear to avoid more problems in the future.
I agree with this. I know I COULD just delete him from Facebook, but I think passive-agresive actions would be worse than flat out telling him, stop. I do need to be clear with him on why I'm not talking to him so he doesn't try to jump back in my life again. I also want a statement that I can repeat down the line.
Therefore I do feel like I must say something so it can stop the cycle. I understand he may not listen or care, but at least I stood my ground. Again this cycle has happened at least 5 times in the past 7 years. He gets mad, doesn't talk to me, months pass, he does talk to me, we have to be best friends again.
I don't want some grand statement that would lift the clouds and there would be rainbows and smiles and .. Yes, I know that is not going to happen. I just need a statement that is clear, concise, and hopefully will cause the least drama.
Again, I think he currently thinks that if he were to talk to me right now that we would be best friends and that he didn't do anything wrong. Like I am just sitting in a corner waiting for him to bless me with his presence.
---
I feel that I can't maintain a friendship without a basic feeling of respect for my marriage and an observation of my boundaries [i changed the pronouns to "I" & "my"] This is definitely along the lines of what I need to say.
---
My Grandfather (your Great-Grandfather) always said: The more you stir up shit the more it stinks. Let it sit.
Love you, kiddo!
Yes I know dad, love you too, but I need to really cut him out of my life for good.
---
Reading your whole description of your relationship with this man, as a fellow married woman, made me really really squicky to the point of feeling physically ill.
The comments definitely were too much. Our involvement was short-lived and I thought it was mostly friend based. My husband knew everything about the person and trusted me. It was only after comments started happening that it clearly wasn't okay. However I am friends with people from past relationships, and my husband and them even get along because the feelings are totally in the past and they are just friends. My first serious boyfriend even invited myself and my husband to his poker nights.
So I don't take offense at all, and I also have a husband who doesn't really get jealous because we have so much trust in each other. I felt sick when he said things too. When he was being a good friend, there were no past feelings being displayed, so I thought we could just be friends. Again, like I was going into the "bro zone."
---
All that being said this has been very helpful. Again I do feel like some small action does need to be taken to make my actions clear. If I delete him from FB I might get a rush of texts or something. I appreciate this may work in some situations, but doesn't sit right with me on this one.
I feel I will use a mix of information here and am very glad other people have gone through something similar. I know I should journal so I can really boil down to a clear statement. It was also helpful to hear others say he isn't a friend, which is true. A friend shouldn't say the things he has said.
I will sit on this for a little while and will probably say something then delete him. I will mark a few best answers but if anyone else has other advice, or words of encouragement, let me know. :) Thank you all.
(I'll try to remember to mark as resolved once I end things...)
posted by Crystalinne at 11:31 AM on April 7, 2013
and
Occasionally he would make jokes that were inappropriate to say to a married woman
To clarify, I think flirtation has to to do with a wink and a nod, and sometimes responses. I always tried to change the subject or mention my husbad. To be clear these were outright statements that were clearly offensive.
The most mild example, out of the blue he said, "No offense, I may have found a girl who has a better ass than you."
UMMM What??? Even as a joke, that's not okay. So yes, also to clarify with other people, he does hold a torch for me, but I thought it was in the past and then all of these sorts of comments (and worse) flooded in within a week. They really caught me off guard, I wish I would have been able to say "dude stop" but most of the time I changed the subject, while making it clear that my husband is the only one whose opinion matters, then wouldn't respond.
-----
I think the people who are advising you to do the slow fade don't realize that he keeps coming back into your life. I think you're right that you need to make your feelings absolutely clear to avoid more problems in the future.
I agree with this. I know I COULD just delete him from Facebook, but I think passive-agresive actions would be worse than flat out telling him, stop. I do need to be clear with him on why I'm not talking to him so he doesn't try to jump back in my life again. I also want a statement that I can repeat down the line.
Therefore I do feel like I must say something so it can stop the cycle. I understand he may not listen or care, but at least I stood my ground. Again this cycle has happened at least 5 times in the past 7 years. He gets mad, doesn't talk to me, months pass, he does talk to me, we have to be best friends again.
I don't want some grand statement that would lift the clouds and there would be rainbows and smiles and .. Yes, I know that is not going to happen. I just need a statement that is clear, concise, and hopefully will cause the least drama.
Again, I think he currently thinks that if he were to talk to me right now that we would be best friends and that he didn't do anything wrong. Like I am just sitting in a corner waiting for him to bless me with his presence.
---
I feel that I can't maintain a friendship without a basic feeling of respect for my marriage and an observation of my boundaries [i changed the pronouns to "I" & "my"] This is definitely along the lines of what I need to say.
---
My Grandfather (your Great-Grandfather) always said: The more you stir up shit the more it stinks. Let it sit.
Love you, kiddo!
Yes I know dad, love you too, but I need to really cut him out of my life for good.
---
Reading your whole description of your relationship with this man, as a fellow married woman, made me really really squicky to the point of feeling physically ill.
The comments definitely were too much. Our involvement was short-lived and I thought it was mostly friend based. My husband knew everything about the person and trusted me. It was only after comments started happening that it clearly wasn't okay. However I am friends with people from past relationships, and my husband and them even get along because the feelings are totally in the past and they are just friends. My first serious boyfriend even invited myself and my husband to his poker nights.
So I don't take offense at all, and I also have a husband who doesn't really get jealous because we have so much trust in each other. I felt sick when he said things too. When he was being a good friend, there were no past feelings being displayed, so I thought we could just be friends. Again, like I was going into the "bro zone."
---
All that being said this has been very helpful. Again I do feel like some small action does need to be taken to make my actions clear. If I delete him from FB I might get a rush of texts or something. I appreciate this may work in some situations, but doesn't sit right with me on this one.
I feel I will use a mix of information here and am very glad other people have gone through something similar. I know I should journal so I can really boil down to a clear statement. It was also helpful to hear others say he isn't a friend, which is true. A friend shouldn't say the things he has said.
I will sit on this for a little while and will probably say something then delete him. I will mark a few best answers but if anyone else has other advice, or words of encouragement, let me know. :) Thank you all.
(I'll try to remember to mark as resolved once I end things...)
posted by Crystalinne at 11:31 AM on April 7, 2013
I agree, fade away.
But I just want to point out, we don't know why he said it was a big deal to him. If one of my friends brought up a major issue and threatened that we would no longer be able to talk, by text, I would feel hurt and angry. I'd expect at least a thoughtful 3-sentence email, and that my first notification of the problem woud not be accompanied by an ultimatum like that. I mean, sure, I'd rush to understand what was bothering you, but at some point I'd want to say I was taken aback by how you communicated about this, that the text mode felt a bit disrespectful (maybe that's just me and how I use texts), that it left me feeling like you were closer to cutting off the friendship than I had imagined, and that I hoped we could communicate more openly in the future before things reached that point again.
I doubt this is what is bothering him, but I wouldn't "break up with" him based solely on how he communicates here because I think you share the blame for the communication in this incident. I mean, if you wanted to talk on the phone to resolve this, why didn't you just bring it up on the phone? If you thought you'd quickly overcome this and go back to being friends, why the ultimatum? Why blindside him by trying to redefine the boundaries in your relationship, in such a high stakes way, by text?
I could see this making someone feel hurt and angry. There are people who have such strong emotions that they realize it's better to let the emotions settle before engaging. Maybe that's what he is doing.
If you're done, you're done, and that's fine. I think you have already communicated as much, explicitly and implicitly.
posted by salvia at 11:41 AM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
But I just want to point out, we don't know why he said it was a big deal to him. If one of my friends brought up a major issue and threatened that we would no longer be able to talk, by text, I would feel hurt and angry. I'd expect at least a thoughtful 3-sentence email, and that my first notification of the problem woud not be accompanied by an ultimatum like that. I mean, sure, I'd rush to understand what was bothering you, but at some point I'd want to say I was taken aback by how you communicated about this, that the text mode felt a bit disrespectful (maybe that's just me and how I use texts), that it left me feeling like you were closer to cutting off the friendship than I had imagined, and that I hoped we could communicate more openly in the future before things reached that point again.
I doubt this is what is bothering him, but I wouldn't "break up with" him based solely on how he communicates here because I think you share the blame for the communication in this incident. I mean, if you wanted to talk on the phone to resolve this, why didn't you just bring it up on the phone? If you thought you'd quickly overcome this and go back to being friends, why the ultimatum? Why blindside him by trying to redefine the boundaries in your relationship, in such a high stakes way, by text?
I could see this making someone feel hurt and angry. There are people who have such strong emotions that they realize it's better to let the emotions settle before engaging. Maybe that's what he is doing.
If you're done, you're done, and that's fine. I think you have already communicated as much, explicitly and implicitly.
posted by salvia at 11:41 AM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I also want a statement that I can repeat down the line.
"Do not contact me again".
Say it once, and once only. I'm recommending that you read The Gift Of Fear too. It specifically deals with situations where you've asked someone to stop contacting you, and they don't. (It's an excellent book to read, whatever situation you're in.) The concept is, if you keep reacting, he'll keep trolling you.
posted by Solomon at 11:41 AM on April 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
"Do not contact me again".
Say it once, and once only. I'm recommending that you read The Gift Of Fear too. It specifically deals with situations where you've asked someone to stop contacting you, and they don't. (It's an excellent book to read, whatever situation you're in.) The concept is, if you keep reacting, he'll keep trolling you.
posted by Solomon at 11:41 AM on April 7, 2013 [5 favorites]
He's not talking to you. Great. Ignore him on social apps, and slowly unfriend him. If he emails you, politely respond 1 time, and 1 time only, that you're busy and that since he isn't talking to you, you've decided that's for the best. Ignore him.
posted by theora55 at 12:59 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by theora55 at 12:59 PM on April 7, 2013
If you're looking for a script, I just dug up the one I alluded to above.
[Inappropriate Friend],
The conversation we had today and the messages you've sent me over the previous weeks have convinced me that a productive friendship isn't going to be possible between us. I'm sorry to do it, but I feel that it would be better for both of us if we ended this relationship. Please do not contact me anymore.
I wish nothing but good things for you in the future, though I won't be responding to further messages.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 1:26 PM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
[Inappropriate Friend],
The conversation we had today and the messages you've sent me over the previous weeks have convinced me that a productive friendship isn't going to be possible between us. I'm sorry to do it, but I feel that it would be better for both of us if we ended this relationship. Please do not contact me anymore.
I wish nothing but good things for you in the future, though I won't be responding to further messages.
posted by Colonel_Chappy at 1:26 PM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just need a statement that is clear, concise, and hopefully will cause the least drama.
"This friendship isn't working for me anymore. I wish you the best, and please do not contact me again."
Ignore any further attempts at contact he makes.
posted by jaguar at 2:21 PM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
"This friendship isn't working for me anymore. I wish you the best, and please do not contact me again."
Ignore any further attempts at contact he makes.
posted by jaguar at 2:21 PM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
I agree that you should make a clean break in whatever way you choose. However, I think you should know that the comment you describe him making sounds totally inoffensive to me and I'm a happily married lady. Until I read your post the idea of something like that being offensive to anyone would have sounded like a joke to me. Still, it offended you, everyone has different boundaries and that is perfectly correct. You did the right thing by telling him that he had gone too far. A true friend would have appogised and then had a discussion with you about what you both felt the boundaries should be so you weren't made uncomfortable in the future and he wasn't ambushed by what he probably feels is you overreacting.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:46 PM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:46 PM on April 7, 2013 [1 favorite]
You're better off without him in your life. Sometimes people like that are hard to let go of initially, but in time, you realize that you really don't miss them all that much.
posted by luckynerd at 3:55 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by luckynerd at 3:55 PM on April 7, 2013
Why do you need him in your life at all? Why are you even communicating with him? He can't possibly bring that much into your life or be that special, especially if he's immature.
posted by discopolo at 5:51 PM on April 7, 2013
posted by discopolo at 5:51 PM on April 7, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
I find it very tricky to deal with friends who go on radio silence rather than talking things out. Sometimes, people really do just fade away. It's OK to let them do that. You seem to feel that you can't maintain a friendship without a basic feeling of respect for your marriage and an observation of your boundaries - that's totally normal. You could hide him on Facebook for the time being so you won't see him, and let things rest there. Maybe in a month or two, you just de-friend him. Or just get it all over with and de-friend now, and decide what you'll say if he does text in a month or so..
I've had to leave a few friends behind because of maturity/diverging values things and I agree that avoiding drama is a good thing. Given that experience, today I lean less toward "let's hash all this out in a dramatic final scene where we swear each other off forever," and more toward just letting things die of their own accord, quietly. Just pull yourself in and be more reserved.
posted by Miko at 9:24 PM on April 6, 2013 [22 favorites]