We argue about arguing about arguing.
September 5, 2012 7:19 AM Subscribe
How can I help my SO and I get out of this pattern of arguing about how we argue? Additionally, am I being unreasonable in my expectations of him in such arguments?
Following a discussion in which my SO said that in general, most women can’t hold managerial positions because they let their emotions get in the away (I called BS on this), I made an offhand comment that if we were to be given the same managerial position, I could be as good, if not better, than he could be. As soon as I said this, he started to laugh. It wasn’t a light chuckle, he laughed to the point where he needed to pause occasionally to catch his breath. I asked him to stop laughing because I was being serious and he said that it just wasn’t true that I could be as good as he was. When I asked him why not, he left the room and told me he didn’t want to be around me when I was “being like this”.
I’ve added a snippet of our conversation below to illustrate how we talk to each other during a fight:
Anon: You know, it doesn’t make me feel good when I’m trying to talk to you about something and you laugh at me or walk away.
Anon’s SO: I wasn’t laughing at you. I just laughed at what you said because it was insulting to me. I was offended.
A: Why?
SO: You have this thing where you’re constantly competing or comparing yourself with me and saying that whatever I do, you’re going to be as good at it or better at it than me. It’s annoying. You’re just going to have to accept the fact that some people are going to be better than you. (I found this comment rich after all the angst he’s been wallowing in this week because after university, he’s no longer the default “smart” one in the group.) You’re better at some things than I am and I’m better at some things than you are, and it’s annoying when you constantly try to compare us.
A: I’m sorry that I compare us a lot. I know that you’re better at me at Lightsaber Defense, and I’m better when it comes to Underwater Basketweaving, but for something that we both have equal claim to [because we both have qualities that would make us good leaders], I just don’t think it’s fair for you to assume that you’re the one who’s going to be better at it. I’m not trying to take it away from you by saying I can also be good at it. We can both be good at the same thing.
SO: But you know being in a leadership position is something I want one day, so why did you have to say that you’d be good at that? You keep talking about this and any time I say anything, you act like it doesn’t matter and keep arguing for your side.
A: It bothers me that you assume that you’re the one who’d be better at it in absence of any evidence, but mostly, I didn’t like it that before I could even explain my position, you laughed and walked away. It makes me feel like you don’t care about what I have to say or support me.
SO: How could you even say that? I’ve always supported you and you just can’t accept the fact that I’m better than you are in some ways .
He then proceeded to get on his laptop and say that we needed to do our grocery shopping. I didn’t say anything further because he was responding with half-hearted one-word answers and I didn’t want to continue speaking to someone who had checked out of the conversation.
The hypothetical managerial position is a red herring. What bothers me is the uproarious laughter and walking away from me in the middle of conversation. This isn’t the first time he’s laughed or called what I was talking about “ridiculous” before shutting down the dialogue by either saying “I’m not going to discuss this further with you” or physically leaving. This usually ends the conversation because if I try to continue, he tells me that I need to learn to accept things and let them go or that I overreact to every little thing. The only time I can get him to sit down and actually listen to me is if I get frustrated to the point of tears or if I shout, at which point he tells me that my being aggressive makes me difficult to have a conversation with, and I know that it’s not fair for him to talk to me when I’m crying because even though I don’t cry to make him feel bad, he does feel guilty and relent and it’s unwillingly manipulative of me.
Our arguments follow a pattern when I’m slightly annoyed by something (along the lines of “don’t touch my face after you’ve handled raw meat” or “please don’t answer the phone when we’re in the middle of sex”), he tells me it’s not that big of a deal, I get even more annoyed because he doesn’t want to hear about it, I accuse him of not listening to me and he accuses me of being oversensitive, we spend twenty minutes having an argument about how we argue, and then we realize that we’re having an argument about arguing and we just drop it, say “I love you”, eat ice cream and remain happy until the next time the cycle gets set in motion.
So many paragraphs later, here are my questions: Is there a better way than “Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you” to tell my SO that I would appreciate if he listened to me at the beginning of a minor argument instead of walking away or waiting until I’m in tears before he sees that my cause is worthy of being listened to? Is it worth even discussing or am I overly sensitive? (I do seem to bring up things that bother me more than he does.)
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing, and being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
Following a discussion in which my SO said that in general, most women can’t hold managerial positions because they let their emotions get in the away (I called BS on this), I made an offhand comment that if we were to be given the same managerial position, I could be as good, if not better, than he could be. As soon as I said this, he started to laugh. It wasn’t a light chuckle, he laughed to the point where he needed to pause occasionally to catch his breath. I asked him to stop laughing because I was being serious and he said that it just wasn’t true that I could be as good as he was. When I asked him why not, he left the room and told me he didn’t want to be around me when I was “being like this”.
I’ve added a snippet of our conversation below to illustrate how we talk to each other during a fight:
Anon: You know, it doesn’t make me feel good when I’m trying to talk to you about something and you laugh at me or walk away.
Anon’s SO: I wasn’t laughing at you. I just laughed at what you said because it was insulting to me. I was offended.
A: Why?
SO: You have this thing where you’re constantly competing or comparing yourself with me and saying that whatever I do, you’re going to be as good at it or better at it than me. It’s annoying. You’re just going to have to accept the fact that some people are going to be better than you. (I found this comment rich after all the angst he’s been wallowing in this week because after university, he’s no longer the default “smart” one in the group.) You’re better at some things than I am and I’m better at some things than you are, and it’s annoying when you constantly try to compare us.
A: I’m sorry that I compare us a lot. I know that you’re better at me at Lightsaber Defense, and I’m better when it comes to Underwater Basketweaving, but for something that we both have equal claim to [because we both have qualities that would make us good leaders], I just don’t think it’s fair for you to assume that you’re the one who’s going to be better at it. I’m not trying to take it away from you by saying I can also be good at it. We can both be good at the same thing.
SO: But you know being in a leadership position is something I want one day, so why did you have to say that you’d be good at that? You keep talking about this and any time I say anything, you act like it doesn’t matter and keep arguing for your side.
A: It bothers me that you assume that you’re the one who’d be better at it in absence of any evidence, but mostly, I didn’t like it that before I could even explain my position, you laughed and walked away. It makes me feel like you don’t care about what I have to say or support me.
SO: How could you even say that? I’ve always supported you and you just can’t accept the fact that I’m better than you are in some ways .
He then proceeded to get on his laptop and say that we needed to do our grocery shopping. I didn’t say anything further because he was responding with half-hearted one-word answers and I didn’t want to continue speaking to someone who had checked out of the conversation.
The hypothetical managerial position is a red herring. What bothers me is the uproarious laughter and walking away from me in the middle of conversation. This isn’t the first time he’s laughed or called what I was talking about “ridiculous” before shutting down the dialogue by either saying “I’m not going to discuss this further with you” or physically leaving. This usually ends the conversation because if I try to continue, he tells me that I need to learn to accept things and let them go or that I overreact to every little thing. The only time I can get him to sit down and actually listen to me is if I get frustrated to the point of tears or if I shout, at which point he tells me that my being aggressive makes me difficult to have a conversation with, and I know that it’s not fair for him to talk to me when I’m crying because even though I don’t cry to make him feel bad, he does feel guilty and relent and it’s unwillingly manipulative of me.
Our arguments follow a pattern when I’m slightly annoyed by something (along the lines of “don’t touch my face after you’ve handled raw meat” or “please don’t answer the phone when we’re in the middle of sex”), he tells me it’s not that big of a deal, I get even more annoyed because he doesn’t want to hear about it, I accuse him of not listening to me and he accuses me of being oversensitive, we spend twenty minutes having an argument about how we argue, and then we realize that we’re having an argument about arguing and we just drop it, say “I love you”, eat ice cream and remain happy until the next time the cycle gets set in motion.
So many paragraphs later, here are my questions: Is there a better way than “Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you” to tell my SO that I would appreciate if he listened to me at the beginning of a minor argument instead of walking away or waiting until I’m in tears before he sees that my cause is worthy of being listened to? Is it worth even discussing or am I overly sensitive? (I do seem to bring up things that bother me more than he does.)
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing, and being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
Wow, I don't know how to even start with this question. Just fyi, you don't have to act on this, here is a list of things that he did that would be instant dumpable offenses for me:
i) He said "most women can't hold management positions because they let their emotions get in the way." It's sad that in the 21st century there are still men who hold this Neanderthal view. You certainly don't need to endorse it by continuing to date him.
ii) He laughed at you and dismissed your comments instead of engaging.
iii) He gets offended at the mere idea that you might be better than him at leadership.
iv) He walks away from you in the middle of conversations.
v) He tries to dismiss your genuine emotions by saying it's just you being manipulative.
vi) He says you're too sensitive (!), you should "calm down" (!!) or that you should "stop using such a bitchy tone" (!!!).
There couldn't be more red flags if this were a bullfighting arena. He's dismissive of you, contemptuous of your opinions and is gaslighting you by claiming that you're the one mistreating him. It seems to be working too, since you seem to half think it's you who are the problem. You're not.
posted by peacheater at 7:29 AM on September 5, 2012 [113 favorites]
i) He said "most women can't hold management positions because they let their emotions get in the way." It's sad that in the 21st century there are still men who hold this Neanderthal view. You certainly don't need to endorse it by continuing to date him.
ii) He laughed at you and dismissed your comments instead of engaging.
iii) He gets offended at the mere idea that you might be better than him at leadership.
iv) He walks away from you in the middle of conversations.
v) He tries to dismiss your genuine emotions by saying it's just you being manipulative.
vi) He says you're too sensitive (!), you should "calm down" (!!) or that you should "stop using such a bitchy tone" (!!!).
There couldn't be more red flags if this were a bullfighting arena. He's dismissive of you, contemptuous of your opinions and is gaslighting you by claiming that you're the one mistreating him. It seems to be working too, since you seem to half think it's you who are the problem. You're not.
posted by peacheater at 7:29 AM on September 5, 2012 [113 favorites]
Despite the seeming non-passivity here, this is a total passive-aggressive cop-out. (Furthermore, the fact that he is telling you flat out that he is better than you? WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. That is HORRIBLE behavior. Absolutely wrong and uncalled for.)
John Gottman's "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" aka his predictors for divorce (or the end of a relationship):
1. Criticism
2. Defensiveness
3. Contempt for the other person
4. Stonewalling
Sounds like you've got all four of them right there.
I'm sorry, but there's nothing YOU can do at this point to make HIM change his absolutely appalling behavior. And for the record, if he "only does this during arguments" -- trust me, you'll be arguing more often and not noticing the smaller disagreements because the big ones get so terrible. I've been there.
posted by Madamina at 7:32 AM on September 5, 2012 [27 favorites]
John Gottman's "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" aka his predictors for divorce (or the end of a relationship):
1. Criticism
2. Defensiveness
3. Contempt for the other person
4. Stonewalling
Sounds like you've got all four of them right there.
I'm sorry, but there's nothing YOU can do at this point to make HIM change his absolutely appalling behavior. And for the record, if he "only does this during arguments" -- trust me, you'll be arguing more often and not noticing the smaller disagreements because the big ones get so terrible. I've been there.
posted by Madamina at 7:32 AM on September 5, 2012 [27 favorites]
He is a MF when you're not arguing ("ha ha women are just too sensitive to have jobs with real responsibility"), he's just more subtle about it.
posted by jeather at 7:33 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
posted by jeather at 7:33 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing
So, because he's not a MF sometimes, you should give him a pass?
Call me old-fashioned, but I think MF behavior is repugnant and unacceptable all of the time.
It's him, not you.
posted by inturnaround at 7:33 AM on September 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
So, because he's not a MF sometimes, you should give him a pass?
Call me old-fashioned, but I think MF behavior is repugnant and unacceptable all of the time.
It's him, not you.
posted by inturnaround at 7:33 AM on September 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
It strikes me that one good way to break the cycle of "he says something outrageous, you try to engage in a discussion about it, he laughs and walks away" is for you to simply laugh at the outrageous thing he says yourself and walk away first.
To illustrate:
SO: "in general, most women can’t hold managerial positions because they let their emotions get in the away."
You: (long stare, rueful laugh, and walk out of the room, maybe tossing back a "whatever, dude" over your shoulder as you leave)
It's kind of an adaptation of my father's conversational judo move when he's realizing that the person he's talking with is batshit crazypants. Usually he'll engage people as he loves a good debate, but when he realizes that they're just really entrenched in their position and not gonna budge, and he thinks it's crazy, he'll just sort of shrug and say, "well, okay." And that's it. Even if they try to go further, he'll just say "okay," and drop it.
It doesn't give them anything to argue with, it saves you time, and it also subtextually lets them know that you think what they have to say is ridiculous, but that it's also so ridiculous you're not even gonna bother.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:35 AM on September 5, 2012 [11 favorites]
To illustrate:
SO: "in general, most women can’t hold managerial positions because they let their emotions get in the away."
You: (long stare, rueful laugh, and walk out of the room, maybe tossing back a "whatever, dude" over your shoulder as you leave)
It's kind of an adaptation of my father's conversational judo move when he's realizing that the person he's talking with is batshit crazypants. Usually he'll engage people as he loves a good debate, but when he realizes that they're just really entrenched in their position and not gonna budge, and he thinks it's crazy, he'll just sort of shrug and say, "well, okay." And that's it. Even if they try to go further, he'll just say "okay," and drop it.
It doesn't give them anything to argue with, it saves you time, and it also subtextually lets them know that you think what they have to say is ridiculous, but that it's also so ridiculous you're not even gonna bother.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:35 AM on September 5, 2012 [11 favorites]
Hi. I'm a fairly young guy who probably isn't smart enough to give perfect advice, but the argument you transcribed sounds like he was being completely fair to me. And it's your side of the story, so I'll assume he was. He has a perfectly good point; why would you want to bring each other down trying to figure out who's best rather than support each other in what you're good/improving at? I'm ignoring the laughter here, because that's his weird way of being upset.
The arguments you described later sound much less fair. Do you think you are in a mutual position of oversensitivity w.r.t. arguments, which makes little things too easily fall into the pattern of the actual problem?
The actual problem sounds like you are simply arguing too often (so that he wants to avoid it every time instead of thinking maybe you have a real issue this time).
Solution? I don't know, but whenever we notice that we are in the situation I described, things solve themselves for us.
PS: I just read peacheater's comment, which seem pretty angry at the reason you guys argued. I personally don't think it really matters that he was right or wrong in that argument. If you guys discuss it without getting upset, there would be no problem with him having initially said [whatever].
posted by mostly-sp3 at 7:35 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
The arguments you described later sound much less fair. Do you think you are in a mutual position of oversensitivity w.r.t. arguments, which makes little things too easily fall into the pattern of the actual problem?
The actual problem sounds like you are simply arguing too often (so that he wants to avoid it every time instead of thinking maybe you have a real issue this time).
Solution? I don't know, but whenever we notice that we are in the situation I described, things solve themselves for us.
PS: I just read peacheater's comment, which seem pretty angry at the reason you guys argued. I personally don't think it really matters that he was right or wrong in that argument. If you guys discuss it without getting upset, there would be no problem with him having initially said [whatever].
posted by mostly-sp3 at 7:35 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
You are NOT being overly sensitive and you are NOT the problem.
Please, please read this on gaslighting. Your SO is absolutely gaslighting you.
posted by kitkatcathy at 7:35 AM on September 5, 2012 [23 favorites]
Please, please read this on gaslighting. Your SO is absolutely gaslighting you.
posted by kitkatcathy at 7:35 AM on September 5, 2012 [23 favorites]
This usually ends the conversation because if I try to continue, he tells me that I need to learn to accept things and let them go or that I overreact to every little thing.
This really stands out to me, but honestly, this question has so many worrying details that I wasn't even sure which ones to point out.
Why does HE get to decide when you're done with a conversation?
Why does HE get to decide what's reasonable to be upset about and what isn't?
Why does HE get to decide whether or not your tears are sincere or manipulative? And why do your tears have to be talked about primarily in terms of how they affect HIM?
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing
I don't know you or your partner. But I would encourage you to try and take a biiiiiiiiiiiiig step back from your situation and look at how he talks to you and deals with you when you aren't arguing. People who are condescending and dismissive during arguments are usually condescending and dismissive in other contexts. And if you're in the place where you're writing things like:
I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
This just makes me think that your partner has been so dismissive of you and your internal life for so long that you've started to just accept that HE can't possibly be the problem here, obviously he's just being rational and straightforward, obviously you're being overemotional and unfair.
This is a classic and sadly very common dynamic between self-described "Smart" men and the women they're partnered with. It makes you feel like you're crazy and unreasonable.
You are NOT CRAZY and you are NOT BEING UNREASONABLE.
You may very well be able to make things work with this guy, but ONLY if he gets to the place where he accepts how unfair and condescending he's being to you and makes an effort to change. Because this situation as it stands is awful, and I'm so sorry that you've been caught up in it.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [17 favorites]
This really stands out to me, but honestly, this question has so many worrying details that I wasn't even sure which ones to point out.
Why does HE get to decide when you're done with a conversation?
Why does HE get to decide what's reasonable to be upset about and what isn't?
Why does HE get to decide whether or not your tears are sincere or manipulative? And why do your tears have to be talked about primarily in terms of how they affect HIM?
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing
I don't know you or your partner. But I would encourage you to try and take a biiiiiiiiiiiiig step back from your situation and look at how he talks to you and deals with you when you aren't arguing. People who are condescending and dismissive during arguments are usually condescending and dismissive in other contexts. And if you're in the place where you're writing things like:
I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
This just makes me think that your partner has been so dismissive of you and your internal life for so long that you've started to just accept that HE can't possibly be the problem here, obviously he's just being rational and straightforward, obviously you're being overemotional and unfair.
This is a classic and sadly very common dynamic between self-described "Smart" men and the women they're partnered with. It makes you feel like you're crazy and unreasonable.
You are NOT CRAZY and you are NOT BEING UNREASONABLE.
You may very well be able to make things work with this guy, but ONLY if he gets to the place where he accepts how unfair and condescending he's being to you and makes an effort to change. Because this situation as it stands is awful, and I'm so sorry that you've been caught up in it.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [17 favorites]
The one determiner of success in a relationship is that each person respects his or her SO. Your SO doesn't respect you.
I believe he's contemptuous of you. You can hang in there as long as you like, but typically this is how it goes:
1. Good times 80%-Arguments 20%
2. Good Times 60%-Arguments and misunderstandings 40%
3. Good Times 40%-Arguments, misunderstandings and stoney silences 60%.
4. Good Times 20%-Arguments, misunderstandings, stoney silences and thoughts of revenge 80%.
5. Good Times 10%-Arguments, misunderstandings, stoney silences, thoughts of revenge, and passive aggressive bullshit 90%.
6. Good Times 5%-Arguments, misunderstandings, stoney silences, thoughts of revenge, passive aggressive bullshit, and outright hostility 95%
As you can see, there are diminishing returns. You keep clinging to the good times as you put up with more and more bad times.
He may not be an MF during the good times, but is that really enough?
You're not ready yet. You may be only at level 1. But keep track, how much more contempt are you willing to endure?
My dad is a family counselor and he used to dispair of some of the women in his practice. They were unhappy in their relationships, some of them were in violent and outright terrible situations and when he'd ask them, "What keeps you in this relationship? You're unhappy, he beats you, he steals money from you, exactly what is is about this relationship that you feel the need to hang onto?" They'd invariably say, "Oh, but he has his good qualities. He makes pancakes on Sunday morning."
It's just not enough.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [20 favorites]
I believe he's contemptuous of you. You can hang in there as long as you like, but typically this is how it goes:
1. Good times 80%-Arguments 20%
2. Good Times 60%-Arguments and misunderstandings 40%
3. Good Times 40%-Arguments, misunderstandings and stoney silences 60%.
4. Good Times 20%-Arguments, misunderstandings, stoney silences and thoughts of revenge 80%.
5. Good Times 10%-Arguments, misunderstandings, stoney silences, thoughts of revenge, and passive aggressive bullshit 90%.
6. Good Times 5%-Arguments, misunderstandings, stoney silences, thoughts of revenge, passive aggressive bullshit, and outright hostility 95%
As you can see, there are diminishing returns. You keep clinging to the good times as you put up with more and more bad times.
He may not be an MF during the good times, but is that really enough?
You're not ready yet. You may be only at level 1. But keep track, how much more contempt are you willing to endure?
My dad is a family counselor and he used to dispair of some of the women in his practice. They were unhappy in their relationships, some of them were in violent and outright terrible situations and when he'd ask them, "What keeps you in this relationship? You're unhappy, he beats you, he steals money from you, exactly what is is about this relationship that you feel the need to hang onto?" They'd invariably say, "Oh, but he has his good qualities. He makes pancakes on Sunday morning."
It's just not enough.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [20 favorites]
Let me put it another way: suppose your SO was a hit man, and went around beating people up. Or he bullied people at work. Or he kicked puppies. Whatever.
Suppose he was a complete asshole away from home (which you knew about), but he was (more or less) a sweetie when you were around. Wouldn't you still be walking on eggshells wondering when he would blow up at you (or your own kids or family or pets)? Wouldn't you worry about your own health and safety and state of mind?
All of the assurances in the world can't change the fact that people do not have multiple identities that they can turn off or shed at will. Life is about having an integrated personality: all sides of yourself working within a single person. It's impossible to separate them. The more you try to keep them apart, the more cognitively dissonant things become, making life way more difficult.
So EVEN IF he were able to stay completely perfect except when you argued -- and, again, this WILL NOT HAPPEN, because he is clearly looking for things to fight about and criticize, which is another GIANT problem -- this would be an unacceptable situation. His behavior in certain isolated situations, which probably aren't isolated at all, spills over into every other area of your life. This takes up time, energy, love, and a lot of commitment that you could really use in other areas.
posted by Madamina at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Suppose he was a complete asshole away from home (which you knew about), but he was (more or less) a sweetie when you were around. Wouldn't you still be walking on eggshells wondering when he would blow up at you (or your own kids or family or pets)? Wouldn't you worry about your own health and safety and state of mind?
All of the assurances in the world can't change the fact that people do not have multiple identities that they can turn off or shed at will. Life is about having an integrated personality: all sides of yourself working within a single person. It's impossible to separate them. The more you try to keep them apart, the more cognitively dissonant things become, making life way more difficult.
So EVEN IF he were able to stay completely perfect except when you argued -- and, again, this WILL NOT HAPPEN, because he is clearly looking for things to fight about and criticize, which is another GIANT problem -- this would be an unacceptable situation. His behavior in certain isolated situations, which probably aren't isolated at all, spills over into every other area of your life. This takes up time, energy, love, and a lot of commitment that you could really use in other areas.
posted by Madamina at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'd like to, unfortunately, welcome you to the club of people opening a question with "how can I behave better in this relationship" and then describing a series of appropriate reactions to some pretty shitty things their S.O. did.
So, first he makes a generalized statement indicating a general lack of respect for women, then he gets offended/laughs when you mention you could potentially have the same skillset as you, tells you that you shouldn't get heated because he's just better, and then gave you the silent treatment.
At the absolute very least, this guy hasn't an inkling of tact when it comes to things he disagrees with. Whether or not its true, a blase "oh, I'm just inherently more capable than you" is a shitty thing to say to a significant other. You say "well, you have [RELATED POSITIVE QUALITY]" or "probably, but you, personally would be a lot better at [OTHER RELEVANT THING]" or something like that. You don't tell someone you love you're better than them and that's that. And "lack of tact" might seem like a superficial thing, but it's really not, especially when you got to something like:
...and I know that it’s not fair for him to talk to me when I’m crying because even though I don’t cry to make him feel bad, he does feel guilty and relent and it’s unwillingly manipulative of me.
Too bad, guy you're describing! If you're going to be in an intimate relationship with a human being, you need to suck it up and learn to deal with people expressing their emotions in a constructive manner.
An S.O. who doesn't hear the words "please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you" verbatim and make goddamn strides to fix themselves is an asshole. So, I'd say it just the way you feel it, and see what happens.
posted by griphus at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [30 favorites]
So, first he makes a generalized statement indicating a general lack of respect for women, then he gets offended/laughs when you mention you could potentially have the same skillset as you, tells you that you shouldn't get heated because he's just better, and then gave you the silent treatment.
At the absolute very least, this guy hasn't an inkling of tact when it comes to things he disagrees with. Whether or not its true, a blase "oh, I'm just inherently more capable than you" is a shitty thing to say to a significant other. You say "well, you have [RELATED POSITIVE QUALITY]" or "probably, but you, personally would be a lot better at [OTHER RELEVANT THING]" or something like that. You don't tell someone you love you're better than them and that's that. And "lack of tact" might seem like a superficial thing, but it's really not, especially when you got to something like:
...and I know that it’s not fair for him to talk to me when I’m crying because even though I don’t cry to make him feel bad, he does feel guilty and relent and it’s unwillingly manipulative of me.
Too bad, guy you're describing! If you're going to be in an intimate relationship with a human being, you need to suck it up and learn to deal with people expressing their emotions in a constructive manner.
An S.O. who doesn't hear the words "please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you" verbatim and make goddamn strides to fix themselves is an asshole. So, I'd say it just the way you feel it, and see what happens.
posted by griphus at 7:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [30 favorites]
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing
Compare that with
... I made an offhand comment that if we were to be given the same managerial position, I could be as good, if not better, than he could be. As soon as I said this, he started to laugh. It wasn’t a light chuckle, he laughed to the point where he needed to pause occasionally to catch his breath. I asked him to stop laughing because I was being serious and he said that it just wasn’t true that I could be as good as he was. When I asked him why not, he left the room and told me he didn’t want to be around me when I was “being like this”.
According to your description you two weren't arguing at this point, but he was already being a huge MF. I think you need to reevaluate your assertion that he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing because you just gave us a clear example where there was no argument (just a discussion), and therefore there was no reason for him to be worked up, and yet he was being a HUGE MF.
Frankly, I suspect that he acts like a MF, and that leads to arguments. You say that arguments lead to him being an asshole when your example says it's the other way around - he's an asshole and that creates arguments.
posted by Tehhund at 7:47 AM on September 5, 2012 [9 favorites]
Compare that with
... I made an offhand comment that if we were to be given the same managerial position, I could be as good, if not better, than he could be. As soon as I said this, he started to laugh. It wasn’t a light chuckle, he laughed to the point where he needed to pause occasionally to catch his breath. I asked him to stop laughing because I was being serious and he said that it just wasn’t true that I could be as good as he was. When I asked him why not, he left the room and told me he didn’t want to be around me when I was “being like this”.
According to your description you two weren't arguing at this point, but he was already being a huge MF. I think you need to reevaluate your assertion that he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing because you just gave us a clear example where there was no argument (just a discussion), and therefore there was no reason for him to be worked up, and yet he was being a HUGE MF.
Frankly, I suspect that he acts like a MF, and that leads to arguments. You say that arguments lead to him being an asshole when your example says it's the other way around - he's an asshole and that creates arguments.
posted by Tehhund at 7:47 AM on September 5, 2012 [9 favorites]
Is there a better way than “Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you” to tell my SO that I would appreciate if he listened to me at the beginning of a minor argument instead of walking away or waiting until I’m in tears before he sees that my cause is worthy of being listened to?
"Hey, you're treating me with dismissiveness and contempt. That's not okay. Deal with me like an adult or don't deal with me. As of right now, this is not negotiable."
Is it worth even discussing or am I overly sensitive? (I do seem to bring up things that bother me more than he does.)
The situation you describe is one in which he is completely unreasonable and disrespectful. The fact that you try to mollify this with your parenthetical statement is troubling to say the least. You are not being overly sensitive.
That said, I don't think it's worth discussing because he seems to be quite able to dismiss out of hand anything you say when it isn't precisely what he wants to hear, or when he's just spoiling for a fight with someone. There's no magic combination of words that will bust through that barrier, with the possible exception of "This is a serious problem, it's not getting better, and it needs to stop because I'm not going to be with someone who treats me like this."
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing, and being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
It is entirely possible for both problems to exist, and neither one negates the other. If you're too sensitive then okay. It is still absolutely unacceptable for him to treat you with contempt if you're someone he wants in his life.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:54 AM on September 5, 2012 [8 favorites]
"Hey, you're treating me with dismissiveness and contempt. That's not okay. Deal with me like an adult or don't deal with me. As of right now, this is not negotiable."
Is it worth even discussing or am I overly sensitive? (I do seem to bring up things that bother me more than he does.)
The situation you describe is one in which he is completely unreasonable and disrespectful. The fact that you try to mollify this with your parenthetical statement is troubling to say the least. You are not being overly sensitive.
That said, I don't think it's worth discussing because he seems to be quite able to dismiss out of hand anything you say when it isn't precisely what he wants to hear, or when he's just spoiling for a fight with someone. There's no magic combination of words that will bust through that barrier, with the possible exception of "This is a serious problem, it's not getting better, and it needs to stop because I'm not going to be with someone who treats me like this."
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing, and being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
It is entirely possible for both problems to exist, and neither one negates the other. If you're too sensitive then okay. It is still absolutely unacceptable for him to treat you with contempt if you're someone he wants in his life.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:54 AM on September 5, 2012 [8 favorites]
I'm sorry, but he sounds like a really sexist jerk who is very threatened by women and also threatened by other people who are smarter than him. It also sounds like he's chipped away at your self-esteem to make you feel responsible for this. You're not. Of course you talk about how you'd make a good manager after he rants about how women can't be leaders--what he's saying is personal and hurtful to you, even if he's too dense to see that.
What bothers me is the uproarious laughter and walking away from me in the middle of conversation.
Well, I'll give you one thing--you're better at arguing than he is. By "better at arguing" I mean "remaining engaged in a good faith way with your significant other." Those are both major dick moves and would turn me into a ball of rage. But maybe I'm just "too sensitive."
For what it's worth, texting during sex and touching your face after touching raw meat are both also things that would make me completely freak out, and I'm an old happily married lady.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:55 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
What bothers me is the uproarious laughter and walking away from me in the middle of conversation.
Well, I'll give you one thing--you're better at arguing than he is. By "better at arguing" I mean "remaining engaged in a good faith way with your significant other." Those are both major dick moves and would turn me into a ball of rage. But maybe I'm just "too sensitive."
For what it's worth, texting during sex and touching your face after touching raw meat are both also things that would make me completely freak out, and I'm an old happily married lady.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:55 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
So you could be with someone who believes that having a vagina doesn't automatically mean you have inferior leadership abilities, someone who actively avoids behavior you've said really upsets you, someone who doesn't use their own insecurities as an excuse for putting you down or invalidating your experiences. Those guys exist in abundance.
Maybe it's time to sit down and write out a pros & cons list and prioritize deal breakers and must haves? No one else can tell you what is a deal-breaker or a must-have to you, but I'm hoping that "respects me," "treats me with kindness," and "makes me feel good about myself and the relationship most of the time," are on your must-have list and "belittles me," "refuses to listen to me," and "invalidates my genuine emotional responses," are on your deal-breaker list.
You can do so much better.
posted by Kimberly at 7:56 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
Maybe it's time to sit down and write out a pros & cons list and prioritize deal breakers and must haves? No one else can tell you what is a deal-breaker or a must-have to you, but I'm hoping that "respects me," "treats me with kindness," and "makes me feel good about myself and the relationship most of the time," are on your must-have list and "belittles me," "refuses to listen to me," and "invalidates my genuine emotional responses," are on your deal-breaker list.
You can do so much better.
posted by Kimberly at 7:56 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
What? He just compared all women (including you) to all men!
A million times yes.
In his view: You're gender can make you basically deficient at something but he is hurt by the suggestion that you could be as good at something as he is. Well of course he is, you're just a woman how could you be better than him??
And he reacts to this statement with cruel laughter and running away, IE his emotions getting the better of him.
I run a business. Believing women can't manage makes him seem 12yo. It's a trait, combined with his terrible conflict resolution, that would make him an awful manager.
posted by French Fry at 7:56 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
A million times yes.
In his view: You're gender can make you basically deficient at something but he is hurt by the suggestion that you could be as good at something as he is. Well of course he is, you're just a woman how could you be better than him??
And he reacts to this statement with cruel laughter and running away, IE his emotions getting the better of him.
I run a business. Believing women can't manage makes him seem 12yo. It's a trait, combined with his terrible conflict resolution, that would make him an awful manager.
posted by French Fry at 7:56 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
It seems you came to the wrong place to ask this type of question. There is no way to know if he is a MF and you asserting that he isn't, has some (most?) on here digging in that he is indeed a MF.
I will take you word that he isn't and you love him and are happy -- and his ideas about women being more emotional don't come from misogyny. I think that is possible, btw. My wife tells me that women are more intuitive than men and though I don't agree with her perhaps could argue the opposite, it isn't a winnable argument and doesn't matter. I don't think she hates men because she thinks women are better at some aspect. I digress.
You "offhandedly commented" on something that is completely winnable and if a discussion takes place about it, then someone will be on the short end. He tried to walk away because he knew that.
What should he say?
1) "No, I AM better than you at leading."
Leads to an argument that both parties will be upset about.
2) "Ok, you are better than me."
Leads to an argument because you don't think he applied enough thought to your red herring of a point and you NOW feel he is dismissing your conversation -- as off handed as it was -- now you care about it.
To be happy and not have these arguments, don't be hypothetical. Don't poke and things he already may be feeling insecure about. You say that he already is moping around about not being the default smartest in the the real world outside the university. That is a legit feeling to come to grips with.. Don't poke it. Let him work it out.
Don't ask questions of a personal nature that are completely hypothetical. "If I died, would you remarry -- I would want you to be happy again? Yes? Who would marry? Oh! She is skinny. You like thin women. I am not thin anymore." That right there, led to a path of an unhappy ending of a conversation and if he dismissed the secondary questions, you would then be unhappy about his behavior instead of his answers.
Stop those conversations.
posted by LeanGreen at 8:00 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
I will take you word that he isn't and you love him and are happy -- and his ideas about women being more emotional don't come from misogyny. I think that is possible, btw. My wife tells me that women are more intuitive than men and though I don't agree with her perhaps could argue the opposite, it isn't a winnable argument and doesn't matter. I don't think she hates men because she thinks women are better at some aspect. I digress.
You "offhandedly commented" on something that is completely winnable and if a discussion takes place about it, then someone will be on the short end. He tried to walk away because he knew that.
What should he say?
1) "No, I AM better than you at leading."
Leads to an argument that both parties will be upset about.
2) "Ok, you are better than me."
Leads to an argument because you don't think he applied enough thought to your red herring of a point and you NOW feel he is dismissing your conversation -- as off handed as it was -- now you care about it.
To be happy and not have these arguments, don't be hypothetical. Don't poke and things he already may be feeling insecure about. You say that he already is moping around about not being the default smartest in the the real world outside the university. That is a legit feeling to come to grips with.. Don't poke it. Let him work it out.
Don't ask questions of a personal nature that are completely hypothetical. "If I died, would you remarry -- I would want you to be happy again? Yes? Who would marry? Oh! She is skinny. You like thin women. I am not thin anymore." That right there, led to a path of an unhappy ending of a conversation and if he dismissed the secondary questions, you would then be unhappy about his behavior instead of his answers.
Stop those conversations.
posted by LeanGreen at 8:00 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
SO: But you know being in a leadership position is something I want one day, so why did you have to say that you’d be good at that?
The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. It sounds like you're both pretty young, but this is a huge red flag. What's he going to do if you rise to a leadership position in your career? If you go to grad school and he doesn't? If you win accolades and he doesn't? It doesn't sound like he's going to be a supportive spouse at all. It sounds like he's going to be jealous and competitive and try to undermine your confidence in your abilities, because these are things that he wants.
I will take you word that he isn't and you love him and are happy -- and his ideas about women being more emotional don't come from misogyny. I think that is possible, btw. My wife tells me that women are more intuitive than men and though I don't agree with her perhaps could argue the opposite, it isn't a winnable argument and doesn't matter. I don't think she hates men because she thinks women are better at some aspect. I digress.
That's different because it doesn't come out of a history of men denying women positions of power and disparaging women's abilities to lead for exactly this reason. Whether or not it's a "winnable argument" doesn't make it any less hurtful when your partner uses sexist rhetoric on you to chip away your confidence at something you know you do well.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:05 AM on September 5, 2012 [13 favorites]
The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. It sounds like you're both pretty young, but this is a huge red flag. What's he going to do if you rise to a leadership position in your career? If you go to grad school and he doesn't? If you win accolades and he doesn't? It doesn't sound like he's going to be a supportive spouse at all. It sounds like he's going to be jealous and competitive and try to undermine your confidence in your abilities, because these are things that he wants.
I will take you word that he isn't and you love him and are happy -- and his ideas about women being more emotional don't come from misogyny. I think that is possible, btw. My wife tells me that women are more intuitive than men and though I don't agree with her perhaps could argue the opposite, it isn't a winnable argument and doesn't matter. I don't think she hates men because she thinks women are better at some aspect. I digress.
That's different because it doesn't come out of a history of men denying women positions of power and disparaging women's abilities to lead for exactly this reason. Whether or not it's a "winnable argument" doesn't make it any less hurtful when your partner uses sexist rhetoric on you to chip away your confidence at something you know you do well.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:05 AM on September 5, 2012 [13 favorites]
There is no way to know if he is a MF and you asserting that he isn't, has some (most?) on here digging in that he is indeed a MF.
I think this is a completely unfair interpretations of the responses. No one is making the claim he's an asshole because O.P. says he's not an asshole. Those of us making that claim are making it based on his actions as described in the question.
posted by griphus at 8:06 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
I think this is a completely unfair interpretations of the responses. No one is making the claim he's an asshole because O.P. says he's not an asshole. Those of us making that claim are making it based on his actions as described in the question.
posted by griphus at 8:06 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
From what you have said, it doesn't sound like he has respect for you or for women in general.
posted by Silvertree at 8:08 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Silvertree at 8:08 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Another thing, you don't want to hear a bunch of DTMFA comments, that's fine.
But you see a need to change because you feel culpable in this cycle of (terrible sounding to me) arguing.
You may have plenty of culpability but that is also a thing that is more about the combination of people than the individuals. An argument requires two participants, otherwise it's just one person complaining/yelling.
From my experience the dumb shit I was compelled to say, the hair trigger defensiveness, the awkward dynamic with my girlfriends simply didn't come up with my wife. It wasn't that I had changed 100%, In passing interactions with those exes that shit still comes up.
When you're with someone you basically respect as a human being and trust as a partner, you are BOTH better for it. It makes it easier to be reasonable/kind/understanding. I think I've raised my voice once at my wife since 2005.
posted by French Fry at 8:10 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
But you see a need to change because you feel culpable in this cycle of (terrible sounding to me) arguing.
You may have plenty of culpability but that is also a thing that is more about the combination of people than the individuals. An argument requires two participants, otherwise it's just one person complaining/yelling.
From my experience the dumb shit I was compelled to say, the hair trigger defensiveness, the awkward dynamic with my girlfriends simply didn't come up with my wife. It wasn't that I had changed 100%, In passing interactions with those exes that shit still comes up.
When you're with someone you basically respect as a human being and trust as a partner, you are BOTH better for it. It makes it easier to be reasonable/kind/understanding. I think I've raised my voice once at my wife since 2005.
posted by French Fry at 8:10 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Anon’s SO: I wasn’t laughing at you. I just laughed at what you said because it was insulting to me. I was offended.
This thing he said? This was a lie. He was absolutely laughing at you because he thinks the idea that you'd be as good a leader as he is is so hilarious that he can't stop laughing. The "I'm offended" laugh is not a long stop to catch your breath laugh.
It sounds like he doesn't respect women and probably doesn't like you very much. Plus, he answers the phone during sex. Unless you've got some better reason to stay with him than "I like the times he's not being an asshole to me," get out.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:11 AM on September 5, 2012 [16 favorites]
This thing he said? This was a lie. He was absolutely laughing at you because he thinks the idea that you'd be as good a leader as he is is so hilarious that he can't stop laughing. The "I'm offended" laugh is not a long stop to catch your breath laugh.
It sounds like he doesn't respect women and probably doesn't like you very much. Plus, he answers the phone during sex. Unless you've got some better reason to stay with him than "I like the times he's not being an asshole to me," get out.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:11 AM on September 5, 2012 [16 favorites]
I'm not saying he's great or right but how valid are his comments in this specific example? For the moment, lets ignore his initial statement, I'm not even going to go there on that... but what about the rest? In your transcript you seem to agree that you compare the 2 of a lot and you always want to be better than him, I can see how that would be annoying, and maybe even a little emasculating (lets face it, he doesn't sound like the most enlightened soul, it may help to be sensitive to his male ego). It seems like this managerial thing is something that's very important to him and he feels like you're trying to take away his thing. You didn't just say that you could be as good as him, you said you could be better. In this scenario, neither of you are looking too great and given that it's your side of the story, that doesn't reflect too well on you.
The laughing and walking away could be his self-defence mechanism, if he shows how upset he is by what you said, it makes him look 'weak' and also, completely invalidates his point (that women are too emotional to be managers!).
Of course, then I got to the other stuff - he answers the phone during sex???? seriously? and touches you with raw meat hands? gross. Those things are just plain wrong, but maybe you did overreact? We have no way to know that. Personally I'd kick him in the nads and if he complained, tell him he was being 'too sensitive' and 'overreacting'.
I think ultimately, you're incompatible. I'm sure there's a lovely 1950s housewife out there for him, someone who will happily stroke his male ego and make him feel 'like a man'. And I'm equally sure there is a nice, modern man who isn't intimidated by successful women and who knows about food hygiene and basic sexual etiquette.
You may want to think carefully about what he's said about your competitiveness. Competing with your partner over everything is rarely a healthy dynamic.
posted by missmagenta at 8:14 AM on September 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
The laughing and walking away could be his self-defence mechanism, if he shows how upset he is by what you said, it makes him look 'weak' and also, completely invalidates his point (that women are too emotional to be managers!).
Of course, then I got to the other stuff - he answers the phone during sex???? seriously? and touches you with raw meat hands? gross. Those things are just plain wrong, but maybe you did overreact? We have no way to know that. Personally I'd kick him in the nads and if he complained, tell him he was being 'too sensitive' and 'overreacting'.
I think ultimately, you're incompatible. I'm sure there's a lovely 1950s housewife out there for him, someone who will happily stroke his male ego and make him feel 'like a man'. And I'm equally sure there is a nice, modern man who isn't intimidated by successful women and who knows about food hygiene and basic sexual etiquette.
You may want to think carefully about what he's said about your competitiveness. Competing with your partner over everything is rarely a healthy dynamic.
posted by missmagenta at 8:14 AM on September 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
Holy pile-on. The guy's human. His arguing techniques suck, and they need to change; I'm not seeing the "he disrepects all women" thing. I do see you guys stuck in a weird rut; who cares whether one of you is better at something? It's not a hill worth dying on.
I'd sit him down and say, "Walking away from me in the middle of an argument and/or laughing aren't cool. Don't do those things, please. We are a team and not in competition."
posted by ellF at 8:19 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'd sit him down and say, "Walking away from me in the middle of an argument and/or laughing aren't cool. Don't do those things, please. We are a team and not in competition."
posted by ellF at 8:19 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I agree with everyone else, but I was also in a relationship like this and completely understand the feeling that it's not that bad and if I could just alter my behavior in the right way, he would come around. What made everything finally click for me (months after the breakup) was realizing that I had an eerily similar pattern with my mom, both growing up and as an adult--she said and did all kinds of wacky things to provoke me (yelling at me and calling me lazy and unmotivated after I won a small scholarship, say) and then wouldn't allow me my reaction. If I said "I'm upset about the way you're treating me" she flat wouldn't care, and I would try all sorts of arguments to convince her that I was allowed to feel upset (which never worked). It never reached a constructive stage because she never admitted, as you say, that I was "worthy of being listened to." I was always being too sensitive, overreacting, etc.
I'm not saying that this is the case with you, because I am just a person on the internet and blaming it on parents is weird and armchair-psychologist, but have you ever been with someone who validates your feelings and respects you enough to work through things like this fairly instead of just selfishly digging in and refusing to admit fault? I had just never had that experience and thought it was normal to have to fight for my right to my own feelings, and hey, he treated me great during the good times (which, as Ruthless Bunny points out, became less and less frequent). But as it turns out, there ARE people who will listen to you and work to make things better when you say "I'm upset," instead of forcing you to argue your right to be upset as if you were in a court of law. Sometimes I still can't believe how EASY it all is.
So to answer your specific questions, you are not being too sensitive, and your way of dealing with it (“Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you”) sounds fair and reasonable to me. Unfortunately, just because you are reasonable doesn't mean he will be. Good luck.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:19 AM on September 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
I'm not saying that this is the case with you, because I am just a person on the internet and blaming it on parents is weird and armchair-psychologist, but have you ever been with someone who validates your feelings and respects you enough to work through things like this fairly instead of just selfishly digging in and refusing to admit fault? I had just never had that experience and thought it was normal to have to fight for my right to my own feelings, and hey, he treated me great during the good times (which, as Ruthless Bunny points out, became less and less frequent). But as it turns out, there ARE people who will listen to you and work to make things better when you say "I'm upset," instead of forcing you to argue your right to be upset as if you were in a court of law. Sometimes I still can't believe how EASY it all is.
So to answer your specific questions, you are not being too sensitive, and your way of dealing with it (“Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you”) sounds fair and reasonable to me. Unfortunately, just because you are reasonable doesn't mean he will be. Good luck.
posted by sunset in snow country at 8:19 AM on September 5, 2012 [5 favorites]
anonymous posted">> SO: But you know being in a leadership position is something I want one day, so why did you have to say that you’d be good at that? You keep talking about this and any time I say anything, you act like it doesn’t matter and keep arguing for your side.
Oh, please. It's not a zero-sum game. You can both be leaders. It's not as if you're going to use up the "leadership potential" allotment for the household and leave none for him.
He either thinks that your ambition and accomplishments diminish his, or devalue his. And he's being screamingly sexist about it to boot.
posted by desuetude at 8:21 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
Oh, please. It's not a zero-sum game. You can both be leaders. It's not as if you're going to use up the "leadership potential" allotment for the household and leave none for him.
He either thinks that your ambition and accomplishments diminish his, or devalue his. And he's being screamingly sexist about it to boot.
posted by desuetude at 8:21 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
There is a reason we call them Partners or Companions. It's because they don't try and beat each-other.
They lay waste to all before them, winning at life as a duo, crushing those who dare stand before their gleaming magnificence and making impassioned love atop the corpses of their enemies...
going to far?
He is competing with you in hurtful ways [women suck!], you are competing with him defensively [no you suck!]. neither of you are winning.
posted by French Fry at 8:24 AM on September 5, 2012 [10 favorites]
They lay waste to all before them, winning at life as a duo, crushing those who dare stand before their gleaming magnificence and making impassioned love atop the corpses of their enemies...
going to far?
He is competing with you in hurtful ways [women suck!], you are competing with him defensively [no you suck!]. neither of you are winning.
posted by French Fry at 8:24 AM on September 5, 2012 [10 favorites]
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing,
But he is a MF when you are arguing.
being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem
That's exactly what it's intended to make you think. But you aren't the problem. His defensiveness, his being threatened by you, his misogynistic attitude, his lack of respect, etc. Those are the problems. He is the problem, and you can't fix him. And you can't fix your relationship either, unless he's pulling his weight, which he most definitely is not doing.
posted by headnsouth at 8:24 AM on September 5, 2012
But he is a MF when you are arguing.
being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem
That's exactly what it's intended to make you think. But you aren't the problem. His defensiveness, his being threatened by you, his misogynistic attitude, his lack of respect, etc. Those are the problems. He is the problem, and you can't fix him. And you can't fix your relationship either, unless he's pulling his weight, which he most definitely is not doing.
posted by headnsouth at 8:24 AM on September 5, 2012
It could be that you are being competitive with him and engaging in one-upmanship. This isn't uncommon in relationships, and it is toxic.
However, it sounds like he used that facet of your relationship to cover up for the fact that he laughed in your face when you pointed out that you (presumably a professional just like him) would be fine in a leadership/managerial position, just as he doesn't have any respect for women in managerial positions.
He fucked up. But when called on it, he turned it around on you.
posted by deanc at 8:25 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
However, it sounds like he used that facet of your relationship to cover up for the fact that he laughed in your face when you pointed out that you (presumably a professional just like him) would be fine in a leadership/managerial position, just as he doesn't have any respect for women in managerial positions.
He fucked up. But when called on it, he turned it around on you.
posted by deanc at 8:25 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
The hypothetical managerial position is a red herring. What bothers me is the uproarious laughter and walking away from me in the middle of conversation.
Unfortunately I think it is not a red herring. I think the two are directly related. They're also related to:
“don’t touch my face after you’ve handled raw meat” or “please don’t answer the phone when we’re in the middle of sex”
and
being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone”
posted by DestinationUnknown at 8:28 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately I think it is not a red herring. I think the two are directly related. They're also related to:
“don’t touch my face after you’ve handled raw meat” or “please don’t answer the phone when we’re in the middle of sex”
and
being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone”
posted by DestinationUnknown at 8:28 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your relationship just sounds unhealthy. I don't think it's worth discussing because I don't think your relationship can be saved by him not shutting you down during fights, nor do I think that he would WANT to adjust his arguing style to suit you. Or vice versa.
posted by sm1tten at 8:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by sm1tten at 8:41 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
Nthing what Peacheater and Madamina said, twice over. I might get railed for this, but I'd highly suggest "He's Just Not That Into You." Read it. Memorize it. Color in the giant red flag. I'm generally not a fan of pop self-help (especially on the subject of dating) but this book really changed things for me. You deserve better. So, SO much better.
posted by luciddream928 at 8:47 AM on September 5, 2012
posted by luciddream928 at 8:47 AM on September 5, 2012
even though I don’t cry to make him feel bad, he does feel guilty and relent and it’s unwillingly manipulative of me.
There is no such thing as unwillingly manipulative. You are either trying to manipulate him or you're not. You seem to have let go of the belief that your emotions are legitimate. But they are. What you feel and think and believe and say has value.
There's a joke on metafilter where people say "I've been SILENCED ALL MY LIFE!!!" and it's funny, kind of, because you can kind of picture the person whining "what about meeeeee!!!!" in a ridiculous way. But it's also funny ... kind of ... because so many people on this site can relate to growing up in an environment where, for whatever reason, their feelings/thoughts/beliefs were invalidated, and their expressions of their feelings/thoughts/beliefs were ridiculed or minimized.
I grew up in that kind of environment and I settled for it in relationships because it was all I knew, until I was over 30 and had kids to stand up for and in defending them a lightbulb went on and I realized wait a minute! What I say and feel and think and believe has VALUE. You can disagree with me, but no way in hell are you going to tell me I'm too silly or foolish or emotional or irrational so you get to disregard ME. Because that's what people dismiss. They say they're dismissing what you're saying, but they're dismissing YOU.
That's exactly what your SO is doing. And by buying into the idea that your emotions are manipulative, or that your tone is the problem when he is laughing in your face (!) you are also invalidating your own experience. You are right to get upset when your "partner" laughs at you or responds to legitimate expressions of emotion (answering the phone during sex? yeah, I think expressing frustration there is legit!). Don't buy into the idea that you always have to be sweet and pleasant even when you don't feel it. If he wants to throw eggshells all over the room, let him. That doesn't mean you need to tiptoe around them in glass slippers. You'd be better off putting some boots on, and walkin'!
posted by headnsouth at 8:50 AM on September 5, 2012 [26 favorites]
There is no such thing as unwillingly manipulative. You are either trying to manipulate him or you're not. You seem to have let go of the belief that your emotions are legitimate. But they are. What you feel and think and believe and say has value.
There's a joke on metafilter where people say "I've been SILENCED ALL MY LIFE!!!" and it's funny, kind of, because you can kind of picture the person whining "what about meeeeee!!!!" in a ridiculous way. But it's also funny ... kind of ... because so many people on this site can relate to growing up in an environment where, for whatever reason, their feelings/thoughts/beliefs were invalidated, and their expressions of their feelings/thoughts/beliefs were ridiculed or minimized.
I grew up in that kind of environment and I settled for it in relationships because it was all I knew, until I was over 30 and had kids to stand up for and in defending them a lightbulb went on and I realized wait a minute! What I say and feel and think and believe has VALUE. You can disagree with me, but no way in hell are you going to tell me I'm too silly or foolish or emotional or irrational so you get to disregard ME. Because that's what people dismiss. They say they're dismissing what you're saying, but they're dismissing YOU.
That's exactly what your SO is doing. And by buying into the idea that your emotions are manipulative, or that your tone is the problem when he is laughing in your face (!) you are also invalidating your own experience. You are right to get upset when your "partner" laughs at you or responds to legitimate expressions of emotion (answering the phone during sex? yeah, I think expressing frustration there is legit!). Don't buy into the idea that you always have to be sweet and pleasant even when you don't feel it. If he wants to throw eggshells all over the room, let him. That doesn't mean you need to tiptoe around them in glass slippers. You'd be better off putting some boots on, and walkin'!
posted by headnsouth at 8:50 AM on September 5, 2012 [26 favorites]
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing, and being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
I'm confused about the "eggshells" comment. Walking on eggshells is not the same thing as taking responsibility for one's behavior, and how one treats other people. I think this is what others refer to when they talk about "gaslighting" - all of a sudden when he feels guilty for acting like a MF, it's YOUR fault that he has to "walk on eggshells" around you. What I don't hear from your description is him taking any interest (let alone responsibility) in how to be a better partner.
posted by luciddream928 at 9:00 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm confused about the "eggshells" comment. Walking on eggshells is not the same thing as taking responsibility for one's behavior, and how one treats other people. I think this is what others refer to when they talk about "gaslighting" - all of a sudden when he feels guilty for acting like a MF, it's YOUR fault that he has to "walk on eggshells" around you. What I don't hear from your description is him taking any interest (let alone responsibility) in how to be a better partner.
posted by luciddream928 at 9:00 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
my SO said that in general, most women can’t hold managerial positions because they let their emotions get in the away
Don't respond to nonsense as if it made sense. The next time he says something like that, say "what?" or "nonsense" or laugh and walk away. Above all, don't get drawn into an argument. If he says "I hate it when you [have feelings] [disagree with me] [whatever]" just nod dismissively and go "yeah I know. Sorry about that," and go back to whatever you were doing.
This is stonewalling, I guess, but you only have to use it when he's not being overtly contemptuous of you.
However, I agree with everyone else that the problem is he's contemptuous of you. If he holds you in contempt then it doesn't matter that he's only explicit about that when you're arguing. It won't be possible to have a good relationship with him.
posted by tel3path at 9:02 AM on September 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
Don't respond to nonsense as if it made sense. The next time he says something like that, say "what?" or "nonsense" or laugh and walk away. Above all, don't get drawn into an argument. If he says "I hate it when you [have feelings] [disagree with me] [whatever]" just nod dismissively and go "yeah I know. Sorry about that," and go back to whatever you were doing.
This is stonewalling, I guess, but you only have to use it when he's not being overtly contemptuous of you.
However, I agree with everyone else that the problem is he's contemptuous of you. If he holds you in contempt then it doesn't matter that he's only explicit about that when you're arguing. It won't be possible to have a good relationship with him.
posted by tel3path at 9:02 AM on September 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
How long have you been together? Is this a man you think you'd like to be with long term/forever? Do you invision marrying him? Is your life as it is RIGHT NOW a life you'd be willing to have for many years to come? Is this the type of life you think would be good to raise children in? Would him behaving this way towards kids (your own, or others) be okay in your books?
Seriously. Your life right now, and the behaviour he is engaging is, is extremely far off the scale not okay. He doesn't respect you, he doesn't respect women, he is rude and dismissive of you, and he is beating you down emotionally so that you are made to feel like it is all your fault. He's convincing you that you're lucky to be with him because no one else would put up with you.
It is all horse shit.
Everything he is doing is horse shit.
Get the hell out of this relationship. You deserve so much better. You deserve to be respected and cared about ALL the time, not just when it is convenient for hm and not just when you aren't having an opinion. This is NOT going to get better with time. You are NOT going to be able to change this in him. And this is NOT a life you should have to put up with. And don't even get me started on how utterly terrible it would be to be a kid raised in that environment.
This guy owns a red flag factory and he has wallpapered your life with his inventory. Please please see this for what it is.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:06 AM on September 5, 2012 [11 favorites]
Seriously. Your life right now, and the behaviour he is engaging is, is extremely far off the scale not okay. He doesn't respect you, he doesn't respect women, he is rude and dismissive of you, and he is beating you down emotionally so that you are made to feel like it is all your fault. He's convincing you that you're lucky to be with him because no one else would put up with you.
It is all horse shit.
Everything he is doing is horse shit.
Get the hell out of this relationship. You deserve so much better. You deserve to be respected and cared about ALL the time, not just when it is convenient for hm and not just when you aren't having an opinion. This is NOT going to get better with time. You are NOT going to be able to change this in him. And this is NOT a life you should have to put up with. And don't even get me started on how utterly terrible it would be to be a kid raised in that environment.
This guy owns a red flag factory and he has wallpapered your life with his inventory. Please please see this for what it is.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:06 AM on September 5, 2012 [11 favorites]
Do any of these sound familiar?
Authoritarian Style: "a way of disguising personal wishes as principles. First comes an insistence on framing matters of preference or opinion as matters of right or wrong. Second comes the insistence that the primary aggressor's preferences and opinions are the right ones . . ."
Stonewalling: "Refusal to negotiate a conflict in good faith, Refusal to discuss honestly one’s motivations, Refusal to listen to another point of view with openness, Refusal to compromise . . ."
Deflection: "a primary aggressor immediately responds to any discussion or confrontation of his actions by changing the focus onto the survivor's behavior and keeping it there. . . . Survivors usually want to be accountable, so it can seem fair at times to answer first to others about what they don't like. However, survivors are never able to 'earn' the right to discuss the primary aggressor's behavior this way."
posted by Orinda at 9:07 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
Authoritarian Style: "a way of disguising personal wishes as principles. First comes an insistence on framing matters of preference or opinion as matters of right or wrong. Second comes the insistence that the primary aggressor's preferences and opinions are the right ones . . ."
Stonewalling: "Refusal to negotiate a conflict in good faith, Refusal to discuss honestly one’s motivations, Refusal to listen to another point of view with openness, Refusal to compromise . . ."
Deflection: "a primary aggressor immediately responds to any discussion or confrontation of his actions by changing the focus onto the survivor's behavior and keeping it there. . . . Survivors usually want to be accountable, so it can seem fair at times to answer first to others about what they don't like. However, survivors are never able to 'earn' the right to discuss the primary aggressor's behavior this way."
posted by Orinda at 9:07 AM on September 5, 2012 [7 favorites]
Imagine that you're both in a room right now, and his hands are covered in raw meat, and he's dancing around waving his raw meat hands all over. You, very reasonably, don't want to get raw meat germs on yourself. You've told him to stop or stay on one side of the room, but he's not interested in hearing it. It's just dancing! You're overreacting. So, since he's not going to stop doing his meat hand dance, the only thing you can do is stay out of his way. Maybe you back into a corner. Maybe you stay on the move, keeping an eye on him, darting out of his way when you see him coming. And it works, most of the time, even though you have to constantly be on the lookout. And he's perfectly happy with this setup, because it gives him even more room to dance. But since he's not looking out for you, every now and then he will brush against you with his meat hands. It's inevitable. And he's going to say the same thing: It's just dancing! You're overreacting. He might even get mad at you for getting in his way during his meat dance. You're the one who's grossed out about it. Why didn't you stay out of my way?
The only other option you have is to leave the room.
As long as he's not willing to change, compromise, or even take your opinions seriously, there is zero chance of this resolving into a healthy relationship. You can either try to put up with his crap and be miserable, or you can end it.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:16 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
The only other option you have is to leave the room.
As long as he's not willing to change, compromise, or even take your opinions seriously, there is zero chance of this resolving into a healthy relationship. You can either try to put up with his crap and be miserable, or you can end it.
posted by Metroid Baby at 9:16 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]
In the course of conversation on a very romantic picnic under the Eiffel Tower, while I was working on writing lyrics for a song about him, I said to my husband, "I love the fact that you have the analytical smarts and I have the creative smarts, we make a good team."
My husband said to me, "No, I'm smarter than you in every way." He was not joking.
Some months later, I divorced him.
The end.
posted by thrasher at 9:42 AM on September 5, 2012 [45 favorites]
My husband said to me, "No, I'm smarter than you in every way." He was not joking.
Some months later, I divorced him.
The end.
posted by thrasher at 9:42 AM on September 5, 2012 [45 favorites]
Sounds like you have a very insecure and immature partner. The laughter and dismissiveness seems a lot like contempt to me. Answering the phone during sex? Disregarding specific requests? Turning on you because he "wants to be a leader someday"? He doesn't respect you. He's threatened by you and he expresses that by heaping the responsibility for keeping the relationship pleasant on your shoulders. The part where he gets offended because you disagree with him about a hypothetical future scenario is controlling and creepy.
Arguing about the argument is just his way of making sure he never has to address the core issue. He would probably benefit from therapy, because it seems like the way things are now the basic issues that cause your strife are never going to be addressed.
Also, I'm not going to say the dreaded acronym, but I'll note that you sound much more mature and rational than him and you could do much better.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 9:43 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Arguing about the argument is just his way of making sure he never has to address the core issue. He would probably benefit from therapy, because it seems like the way things are now the basic issues that cause your strife are never going to be addressed.
Also, I'm not going to say the dreaded acronym, but I'll note that you sound much more mature and rational than him and you could do much better.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 9:43 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
I also noticed that you immediately backpedaled in your faux dialogue and reframed the argument completely in order to placate him. Your first assertion was not that you could also be good at being a manager - it was that you'd be the better manager. After it all blew up, you went back to soothing him (after he was the one who behaved so badly) by reframing the issue so as to comfort him.
Is there a better way than just saying "When you disrespect me it makes me feel disrespected?" Yes, there is a better - but infinitely harder - way. You have to set the boundary and you have to maintain it. You're setting the boundary... and then engaging in a debate over it with him!
He's setting great boundaries, and walking all over you in the process. He laughs and shuts down and walks away when you've challenged his ego. (Which, to be honest, you do want to be sensitive about doing - but you're so far away from having to worry about that...) Not that you should ever employ his tactics against them - they're unhealthy for your relationship and you don't want to become that person. But you need to assert the boundary early and often and not budge on it.
"That's a horrifyingly sexist comment. This conversation is over. If you want to understand your sexism, I'm happy to point you to reading material." Dunzo.
"I'm not being oversensitive. I'm entitled to ANY and ALL of my feelings, and anyone who truly loves me would respect my feelings. This conversation is over. If you want to understand how to respect the person you're in a relationship with, then I suggest you get a therapist." Dunzo.
But really, I think the one firm boundary that you need to set is with yourself. "My boyfriend does not respect me. I will not accept disrespectful treatment from my boyfriend. I will not REACT when I am disrespected. I will simply identify the disrespectful behavior, disengage, and explain to him how he can correct his deficiencies. I will not engage any further. If I find myself engaging his disrespectful behavior, I will seek additional solutions to learn how not to engage someone who is being disrespectful to me." Dunzo.
posted by jph at 9:44 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Is there a better way than just saying "When you disrespect me it makes me feel disrespected?" Yes, there is a better - but infinitely harder - way. You have to set the boundary and you have to maintain it. You're setting the boundary... and then engaging in a debate over it with him!
He's setting great boundaries, and walking all over you in the process. He laughs and shuts down and walks away when you've challenged his ego. (Which, to be honest, you do want to be sensitive about doing - but you're so far away from having to worry about that...) Not that you should ever employ his tactics against them - they're unhealthy for your relationship and you don't want to become that person. But you need to assert the boundary early and often and not budge on it.
"That's a horrifyingly sexist comment. This conversation is over. If you want to understand your sexism, I'm happy to point you to reading material." Dunzo.
"I'm not being oversensitive. I'm entitled to ANY and ALL of my feelings, and anyone who truly loves me would respect my feelings. This conversation is over. If you want to understand how to respect the person you're in a relationship with, then I suggest you get a therapist." Dunzo.
But really, I think the one firm boundary that you need to set is with yourself. "My boyfriend does not respect me. I will not accept disrespectful treatment from my boyfriend. I will not REACT when I am disrespected. I will simply identify the disrespectful behavior, disengage, and explain to him how he can correct his deficiencies. I will not engage any further. If I find myself engaging his disrespectful behavior, I will seek additional solutions to learn how not to engage someone who is being disrespectful to me." Dunzo.
posted by jph at 9:44 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Are you kidding? This isn't about "how you argue." Your SO is very clear about who he is. And anon -- he's been clear about who he is in all of the situations that you've posted about him before. Your anonymous status in this one is not going to change the general consensus that your SO neither likes nor respects you. Please, if you can't just move out, get therapy, go to Codependents Anonymous, do something. Posting on Metafilter is not going to help your relationship dynamic.
posted by Wordwoman at 9:44 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Wordwoman at 9:44 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sweetheart,
This isn't how nice people talk to others. Especially not to people they love.
You don't ignore their entire part in how you feel. They don't insult a core componante of who you are and then blame you for not taking it better. They don't ignore reasonable requests, or even unreasonable ones- they take them seriously even if they can't be fulfilled.
Nice people who love you will cheer you on, help you get better at things and find nice ways to let you know when you're in need of some practice. Nice people who love you want to know what you think and why you think it, no matter if they agree or not. Nice people who love you take your feelings into consideration first in matters of intamicy.
He isn't doing these things- maybe he is too young and needs someone to leave his ass so he learns them... or maybe he isn't such a nice person and then it's not going to work out well in the long run for either of you.
posted by Blisterlips at 10:14 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
This isn't how nice people talk to others. Especially not to people they love.
You don't ignore their entire part in how you feel. They don't insult a core componante of who you are and then blame you for not taking it better. They don't ignore reasonable requests, or even unreasonable ones- they take them seriously even if they can't be fulfilled.
Nice people who love you will cheer you on, help you get better at things and find nice ways to let you know when you're in need of some practice. Nice people who love you want to know what you think and why you think it, no matter if they agree or not. Nice people who love you take your feelings into consideration first in matters of intamicy.
He isn't doing these things- maybe he is too young and needs someone to leave his ass so he learns them... or maybe he isn't such a nice person and then it's not going to work out well in the long run for either of you.
posted by Blisterlips at 10:14 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
I don’t want to DTMFA because he isn’t a MF at all when we’re not arguing, and being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
One thing that becomes increasingly clear about relationships as you go along is that it isn't about how nice we are when things are OK. Everyone is nice when things are going well. Your SO is a sexist. First he makes a sexist argument, then he laughs himself breathless when you suggest that you could be as good a manager as he could (seriously WTF). Then he dismisses you from consideration by just walking out on the argument (for the crime, note, of you insisting that he back up his bullshit with some sort of functional logic). Then when you call him on that bullshit behavior it's suddenly about you belittling him, offending him, hurting his feelings - you're attacking his very future dreams and goals by suggesting that you also could be good at something he cares about.
Nobody can tell you how to argue better with this guy because consciously or not he is willfully using tactics against you.
Being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
That is exactly how he wants it to work and it is working to a T on you. If he gets "offended" - and reacts to the suggestion that you could have leadership abilities equal to yours by laughing in your face you are supposed to understand that he's feeling insulted and drop it. If you react to an argument? you need to suppress it otherwise your SO will have to "walk on eggshells" because you're "being too emotional". I highly doubt this one is fixable.
posted by nanojath at 10:48 AM on September 5, 2012 [9 favorites]
One thing that becomes increasingly clear about relationships as you go along is that it isn't about how nice we are when things are OK. Everyone is nice when things are going well. Your SO is a sexist. First he makes a sexist argument, then he laughs himself breathless when you suggest that you could be as good a manager as he could (seriously WTF). Then he dismisses you from consideration by just walking out on the argument (for the crime, note, of you insisting that he back up his bullshit with some sort of functional logic). Then when you call him on that bullshit behavior it's suddenly about you belittling him, offending him, hurting his feelings - you're attacking his very future dreams and goals by suggesting that you also could be good at something he cares about.
Nobody can tell you how to argue better with this guy because consciously or not he is willfully using tactics against you.
Being told in an argument that I’m too sensitive or being told to “calm down” or “stop using such a bitchy tone” makes me think that I’m the problem because I take everything too seriously and get too emotional to the point where my SO has to walk on eggshells around me.
That is exactly how he wants it to work and it is working to a T on you. If he gets "offended" - and reacts to the suggestion that you could have leadership abilities equal to yours by laughing in your face you are supposed to understand that he's feeling insulted and drop it. If you react to an argument? you need to suppress it otherwise your SO will have to "walk on eggshells" because you're "being too emotional". I highly doubt this one is fixable.
posted by nanojath at 10:48 AM on September 5, 2012 [9 favorites]
I would've dumped him. Which is not to say that he is all wrong, but that he does not longer listen to or respect you.
There are ways to argue (I love arguing!) and being competitive (I'm hyper-competitive) and still be in a loving relationship.
For example, does he actually have a managerial position? My boyfriend acts as a project manager even though that's not his title. And I hate interacting with people. So I would never say to him that I'm better than him at a managerial position.
On the other hand, we both just bought a whole bunch of power tools to get into woodworking. He's better at it than me for now, but I've told him I plan to be better than him in five years. And he's fully supportive of me trying to do that, and will not sit idly in the meanwhile. He both helps me learn and is learning to improve his own skills. The point being: there are supportive ways of being competitive.
Also, WTF? He answers the phone during sex? And touches you after touching raw meat (without washing his hands)?
What other things will you consider unacceptable that he will think is ok (and bulldoze over you when you complain)? Will he make out with a woman without checking if she has STDs? Will he allow his homeless friends to stay at your place indefinitely? To me, those things are in the same category (things he is comfortable with which you are not), and if he ignore your opinion on one, he probably will on the others.
posted by ethidda at 10:52 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
There are ways to argue (I love arguing!) and being competitive (I'm hyper-competitive) and still be in a loving relationship.
For example, does he actually have a managerial position? My boyfriend acts as a project manager even though that's not his title. And I hate interacting with people. So I would never say to him that I'm better than him at a managerial position.
On the other hand, we both just bought a whole bunch of power tools to get into woodworking. He's better at it than me for now, but I've told him I plan to be better than him in five years. And he's fully supportive of me trying to do that, and will not sit idly in the meanwhile. He both helps me learn and is learning to improve his own skills. The point being: there are supportive ways of being competitive.
Also, WTF? He answers the phone during sex? And touches you after touching raw meat (without washing his hands)?
What other things will you consider unacceptable that he will think is ok (and bulldoze over you when you complain)? Will he make out with a woman without checking if she has STDs? Will he allow his homeless friends to stay at your place indefinitely? To me, those things are in the same category (things he is comfortable with which you are not), and if he ignore your opinion on one, he probably will on the others.
posted by ethidda at 10:52 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
This made me angry just to read. Your SO is a fucking child and/or the human equivalent of a black hole, who will steadily suck away every last atom of your confidence and self-esteem until you no longer have the ability to leave him. The reason things are good when you're not arguing is because his emotional manipulation, gas lighting and downright shitty arguing tactics have encouraged you to maintain a strategy of constant appeasement. Unfortunately, this gives him little motivation to ever stop being a fucking child and/or a human black hole. It works.
Please give this guy the boot and find someone who a) doesn't think women are inferior to men because of their "emotions" and b) doesn't treat you with contempt, ever. You will be so much happier and safer in the long run.
posted by crackingdes at 10:55 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Please give this guy the boot and find someone who a) doesn't think women are inferior to men because of their "emotions" and b) doesn't treat you with contempt, ever. You will be so much happier and safer in the long run.
posted by crackingdes at 10:55 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Really think about what he said, because suggesting that "women would be inferior manager because they cant control their emotions" is very close to saying "women cant control their emotions" which is close to "women have no self control".
People in this tread are contending that the "content" of the argument wasn’t as important as the way the argument was conducted, but I strongly disagree. Saying that "women can't control their emotions" is just the kind of faulty logic that people use to convince themselves that they are justified in dismissing people who don't mold their feelings to their preferences.
posted by Shouraku at 11:20 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
People in this tread are contending that the "content" of the argument wasn’t as important as the way the argument was conducted, but I strongly disagree. Saying that "women can't control their emotions" is just the kind of faulty logic that people use to convince themselves that they are justified in dismissing people who don't mold their feelings to their preferences.
posted by Shouraku at 11:20 AM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
Do not spend your life tiptoeing around the "male ego." Why would you condemn yourself to that? It's a waste of energy you could be spending on other things-- including a mutually respectful relationship with someone who didn't play these mind games. I can see why you think it's contained to your arguments, but disagreements are a part of life and relationships, and shaping your life to avoid arguments with him is obviously a much bigger issue, of how you see yourself and what you think is acceptable (female, non-"bitchy") behavior. He's changing the way you feel about yourself. Do you think he has the right (or the wisdom), with his current behavior, to do that? It probably doesn't feel like a choice to you in this context, but it is. You get to choose whose advice you respect and follow.
Imagine that you actually did get a leadership position, and he was still working toward one. Do you think he would get upset/resentful/passive aggressive that you'd taken "his thing"? Like, in real life? Because if so he really is kind of a baby and a jerk and I could put up with that for about another month, tops. If it's just bluster, then you need to tell him that 1) sexist comments are hurtful and not okay, 2) to respect your boundaries about sex and being touched (among various things), and 3) that life isn't a zero-sum game between the both of you. You can both do things that you enjoy and are naturally good at. That's what life is about, doing what fulfills you, not being the greater or lesser in one personal relationship in your life. He obviously has a huge chip on his shoulder about being the smartest person in the room, and him taking it out on you means that during these arguments he really does not respect you or your feelings. He is too self-centered to respect you.
Anyone who defines themselves as "smart" in order to get leverage on others has a chip on their shoulder and hasn't yet left adolescence in a pretty significant way. How is he measuring this intelligence? The college he got into? Grades? Personal opinion? Who cares? Does he enjoy intellectual conversations and pursuits? Does he use his skills to make himself happier? Does he do anything besides use it as leverage against other people he wants to feel superior to? Because ultimately, all you have is you. He sounds like he doesn't know how to make himself happy.
Plus, he says sexist things. It sounds like he's sexist. If so, there are two options: 1) he thinks of you as a woman, and therefore inferior, in a lot of little ways that he doesn't mention. Doesn't bring it up because you know how women get, but he silently enjoys feeling superior to you. Or, 2) he is threatened by you, acknowledges that the things he says about "women" aren't true of you, and will be competing with you until he either gets tired and regresses to 1), or until he grows up.
Neither of these sound like fun. And for the record, he is being far, FAR more emotional than you in these disagreements. He is having tantrums. Plus, I doubt that you're comparing yourself to him as often as he says-- at least unprovoked. If he consistently brings up these little ways in which you (or "women") are not his equals, then yeah, I'd be like "fuck you, I'm good at shit" all the time too. If he defines all his relationships by how much better he is than the other person, then I'm sure there's plenty of unconscious shit being slung your way too, and you probably react to that. It's extremely unlikely with all this backstory that this is just a benign, legitimate opinion of his. I bet he has a lot of negative opinions about people who aren't like him to make himself feel smarter.
Plus, laughing at you-- I have a friend who used to do that and it was because he sucked at having a discussion and was super insecure, and therefore became a rude, gaslighting asshole to cover it up. Just sayin'.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:21 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Imagine that you actually did get a leadership position, and he was still working toward one. Do you think he would get upset/resentful/passive aggressive that you'd taken "his thing"? Like, in real life? Because if so he really is kind of a baby and a jerk and I could put up with that for about another month, tops. If it's just bluster, then you need to tell him that 1) sexist comments are hurtful and not okay, 2) to respect your boundaries about sex and being touched (among various things), and 3) that life isn't a zero-sum game between the both of you. You can both do things that you enjoy and are naturally good at. That's what life is about, doing what fulfills you, not being the greater or lesser in one personal relationship in your life. He obviously has a huge chip on his shoulder about being the smartest person in the room, and him taking it out on you means that during these arguments he really does not respect you or your feelings. He is too self-centered to respect you.
Anyone who defines themselves as "smart" in order to get leverage on others has a chip on their shoulder and hasn't yet left adolescence in a pretty significant way. How is he measuring this intelligence? The college he got into? Grades? Personal opinion? Who cares? Does he enjoy intellectual conversations and pursuits? Does he use his skills to make himself happier? Does he do anything besides use it as leverage against other people he wants to feel superior to? Because ultimately, all you have is you. He sounds like he doesn't know how to make himself happy.
Plus, he says sexist things. It sounds like he's sexist. If so, there are two options: 1) he thinks of you as a woman, and therefore inferior, in a lot of little ways that he doesn't mention. Doesn't bring it up because you know how women get, but he silently enjoys feeling superior to you. Or, 2) he is threatened by you, acknowledges that the things he says about "women" aren't true of you, and will be competing with you until he either gets tired and regresses to 1), or until he grows up.
Neither of these sound like fun. And for the record, he is being far, FAR more emotional than you in these disagreements. He is having tantrums. Plus, I doubt that you're comparing yourself to him as often as he says-- at least unprovoked. If he consistently brings up these little ways in which you (or "women") are not his equals, then yeah, I'd be like "fuck you, I'm good at shit" all the time too. If he defines all his relationships by how much better he is than the other person, then I'm sure there's plenty of unconscious shit being slung your way too, and you probably react to that. It's extremely unlikely with all this backstory that this is just a benign, legitimate opinion of his. I bet he has a lot of negative opinions about people who aren't like him to make himself feel smarter.
Plus, laughing at you-- I have a friend who used to do that and it was because he sucked at having a discussion and was super insecure, and therefore became a rude, gaslighting asshole to cover it up. Just sayin'.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:21 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Arguments worth having: Those that affect how you live your life together (when to set the alarm clock, how often to clean the toilet, whether to answer the phone during sex; how to get through a sexual dry spell), those related to safety (should we bolt the heavy furniture to the wall in this earthquake-prone region? is it OK to touch someone's face with raw meat?).
Up for discussion, but not a healthy thing to try to argue against: Personal boundaries (I'm not in the mood for sex right now, I don't feel safe when you do X).
All arguments that do not touch directly on your lives:
* Can be fun, if both parties are willing and enjoy debate.
* If both parties are not willing, what is the point? It is OK for people to be wrong, if their wrongness does not cause harm or directly affect your life.
It seems like some of your arguments are worth having, but quite a few are pointless wastes of time. Why do you engage?
posted by croutonsupafreak at 11:22 AM on September 5, 2012
Up for discussion, but not a healthy thing to try to argue against: Personal boundaries (I'm not in the mood for sex right now, I don't feel safe when you do X).
All arguments that do not touch directly on your lives:
* Can be fun, if both parties are willing and enjoy debate.
* If both parties are not willing, what is the point? It is OK for people to be wrong, if their wrongness does not cause harm or directly affect your life.
It seems like some of your arguments are worth having, but quite a few are pointless wastes of time. Why do you engage?
posted by croutonsupafreak at 11:22 AM on September 5, 2012
(Also, the thing about sexist arguments is they're incredibly labor-intensive to argue against, let alone win. Because you're arguing against centuries of bias and "common sense," and it's hard not to take it personally-- which will be used against you. I'd never want to be in a relationship with a "borderline" sexist again. Imagine just beginning from the premise that you're a talented human being worthy of respect!)
posted by stoneandstar at 11:26 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 11:26 AM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Or, as many above have suggested: If you think your partner's views are reprehensible, end the relationship. Don't we all know that we can change ourselves but we can't change others? You and he may be able to work on your arguing skills together, and thus to ameliorate the damage arguing does to your relationship. If what you're looking for is a way to win every argument with someone who does not want to be convinced, and have him like it, you should give up and walk away now.
posted by croutonsupafreak at 11:27 AM on September 5, 2012
posted by croutonsupafreak at 11:27 AM on September 5, 2012
One great thing about having a partner who loves you is that they usually tell you that you're great at things, even things you may not yet be totally great at. Sure, they'll give you constructive criticism or help you figure out where your strengths lie, but as a general rule, they're there to tell you that you can do it, not that you can't. It's a tough enough world without a partner who's tearing you down, too.
Don't let him make you into someone you don't want to be. You either have to find a way to not get caught up in it, and maintain your point of view without needing his agreement (be the one to end the conversation when he goes off on his nutty ideas, instead of going crazy trying to convince him), or you have to find someone whose point of view is more 21st century.
If your other examples are real-life and not random jokes, though, you need to expand your social circle and have casual check-ins with friends about relationship norms and expectations, because some of that sounds pretty weird / borderline and I think you'd be getting some "he did WHAT" reactions pretty regularly. (& that is why abusive bf's tend to keep you from yr friends..)
posted by mdn at 11:51 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
Don't let him make you into someone you don't want to be. You either have to find a way to not get caught up in it, and maintain your point of view without needing his agreement (be the one to end the conversation when he goes off on his nutty ideas, instead of going crazy trying to convince him), or you have to find someone whose point of view is more 21st century.
If your other examples are real-life and not random jokes, though, you need to expand your social circle and have casual check-ins with friends about relationship norms and expectations, because some of that sounds pretty weird / borderline and I think you'd be getting some "he did WHAT" reactions pretty regularly. (& that is why abusive bf's tend to keep you from yr friends..)
posted by mdn at 11:51 AM on September 5, 2012 [4 favorites]
I think people are glossing over when you said:
"if we were to be given the same managerial position, I could be as good, if not better, than he could be."
because you are fighting to one up him. That's not a healthy stance to take in a relationship, even justified with his rampant sexism. The fact you feel compelled to be better then him is bad, the fact that he snorts that he's already better then you is awful. This is all bad.
Though, really, if I said something that actually did warrant someone laughing IN MY FACE and leaving the room, if someone chose that route I would not ever consider being in a romantic relationship with that person, and if I was it would be instantly over after that. It's not that hard to respond to statements you find to be highly ridiculous in a kind and mature manner, and what you said does not fall under that banner.
You set the bar so low he can't even trip over it.
posted by Dynex at 11:57 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
"if we were to be given the same managerial position, I could be as good, if not better, than he could be."
because you are fighting to one up him. That's not a healthy stance to take in a relationship, even justified with his rampant sexism. The fact you feel compelled to be better then him is bad, the fact that he snorts that he's already better then you is awful. This is all bad.
Though, really, if I said something that actually did warrant someone laughing IN MY FACE and leaving the room, if someone chose that route I would not ever consider being in a romantic relationship with that person, and if I was it would be instantly over after that. It's not that hard to respond to statements you find to be highly ridiculous in a kind and mature manner, and what you said does not fall under that banner.
You set the bar so low he can't even trip over it.
posted by Dynex at 11:57 AM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
DTMFA.
He doesn't respect you, and he never will. You can't change him. DTMFA.
Honestly, it sounds like he's emotionally broken in some really fundamental way. Maybe he'll learn his lesson after he loses you. Maybe he'll never learn his lesson. But he definitely won't learn if you stay with him.
And to be frank: he'd be a terrible fucking father. Can you imagine him raising your daughter? Or a son whose personality didn't mirror his own?
DTMFA.
---
aside: he's almost certainly not nearly the businessman he thinks he is.
Sorry, I know you said you don't want to DTMFA, but if you love yourself at all, DTMFA. This guy is toxic.
posted by grudgebgon at 12:31 PM on September 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
He doesn't respect you, and he never will. You can't change him. DTMFA.
Honestly, it sounds like he's emotionally broken in some really fundamental way. Maybe he'll learn his lesson after he loses you. Maybe he'll never learn his lesson. But he definitely won't learn if you stay with him.
And to be frank: he'd be a terrible fucking father. Can you imagine him raising your daughter? Or a son whose personality didn't mirror his own?
DTMFA.
---
aside: he's almost certainly not nearly the businessman he thinks he is.
Sorry, I know you said you don't want to DTMFA, but if you love yourself at all, DTMFA. This guy is toxic.
posted by grudgebgon at 12:31 PM on September 5, 2012 [3 favorites]
"here are my questions: Is there a better way than “Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you” to tell my SO that I would appreciate if he listened to me at the beginning of a minor argument instead of walking away or waiting until I’m in tears before he sees that my cause is worthy of being listened to? Is it worth even discussing or am I overly sensitive? (I do seem to bring up things that bother me more than he does.) "
"Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you" is a perfectly clear and reasonable request that any SO worth your time would do his best to respect. (Actually, a really good SO wouldn't make it necessary to make the request in the first place.)
It's totally worth discussing and it's totally worth finding a better relationship if he won't discuss it in a respectful and reasonable manner.
I have no idea if you are an overly sensitive person in general. With regards to the specific events you have described, you are absolutely not being overly sensitive. Your SO's behavior was way out of line.
Now that I've answered your explicit questions, I'll add a couple more thoughts.
Your SO said "You have this thing where you’re constantly competing or comparing yourself with me and saying that whatever I do, you’re going to be as good at it or better at it than me. It’s annoying."
This could indeed be an annoying thing if you do regularly initiate it out of context. (Him: I just spent 6 weeks working on this painting, what do you think? You: Pfft. I could do better.) In the example you cite, he is the one who started it by putting down your entire gender's ability to do management. In that context, you are totally reasonable to assert that you are not inherently inferior to him in that realm. Especially since it doesn't appear that he has any more experience in the field than you do.
Just to give an example of a healthier relationship. If my wife told me that she thought she could do something as well or better than I could, I would totally encourage her to go for it - because I love her and respect her and believe in her capabilities. I might be rather bemused if she thought that she was already better than I am in a field that I've been studying for years and she hasn't, but I would totally give her credit for being able to surpass me if she put in the work.
I'm not going to tell you DTMFA since you've indicated that isn't an option. I will tell you that it's possible to have a healthy happy relationship which doesn't include the crap you've described.
posted by tdismukes at 1:01 PM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Please don’t be dismissive of me or laugh when I’m trying to have a serious conversation with you" is a perfectly clear and reasonable request that any SO worth your time would do his best to respect. (Actually, a really good SO wouldn't make it necessary to make the request in the first place.)
It's totally worth discussing and it's totally worth finding a better relationship if he won't discuss it in a respectful and reasonable manner.
I have no idea if you are an overly sensitive person in general. With regards to the specific events you have described, you are absolutely not being overly sensitive. Your SO's behavior was way out of line.
Now that I've answered your explicit questions, I'll add a couple more thoughts.
Your SO said "You have this thing where you’re constantly competing or comparing yourself with me and saying that whatever I do, you’re going to be as good at it or better at it than me. It’s annoying."
This could indeed be an annoying thing if you do regularly initiate it out of context. (Him: I just spent 6 weeks working on this painting, what do you think? You: Pfft. I could do better.) In the example you cite, he is the one who started it by putting down your entire gender's ability to do management. In that context, you are totally reasonable to assert that you are not inherently inferior to him in that realm. Especially since it doesn't appear that he has any more experience in the field than you do.
Just to give an example of a healthier relationship. If my wife told me that she thought she could do something as well or better than I could, I would totally encourage her to go for it - because I love her and respect her and believe in her capabilities. I might be rather bemused if she thought that she was already better than I am in a field that I've been studying for years and she hasn't, but I would totally give her credit for being able to surpass me if she put in the work.
I'm not going to tell you DTMFA since you've indicated that isn't an option. I will tell you that it's possible to have a healthy happy relationship which doesn't include the crap you've described.
posted by tdismukes at 1:01 PM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
The fact you feel compelled to be better then him is bad
No argument with this comment, but I think it's a pretty reasonable response when someone says you can't do something because of your sex to get tired of arguing that you can be "just as good as a man," because trying to prove that you're as good as the person who arbitrarily decided he was better than you is demoralizing. Eventually you want to take a shortcut and be like, "my gender has no bearing on it, I could be as good or better than a man, i.e., you." Because that's actually less insulting and confrontational than his initial statement! Just mentioning this because I think it's likely that it's another situation where the OP's boyfriend is framing the discussion, yet again. He's "merely expressing an opinion" about men and women (which happens to directly imply that he's better than her at leadership), but when she says "what the hell, maybe I'd be better than you" it's competitive. Ridiculous.
Obviously it's taking place in this dysfunctional context, but I think the fact that he's fucking laughing at you and your little lady desire to have a man's job like a jackoff is what is skewing this situation, you're mostly reacting to his insulting sexism. Everybody has their relationship issues they could improve on, but in this case, it's like dog paddling against a tsunami. Yeah, I don't know you, but nothing you've mentioned here is oversensitive or uncalled for. Sexism is an insult and a provocation, it's not a neutral judgment. It's bullshit. It sucks to date a sexist. I'm attracted to men and women and I wouldn't date a homophobe either. (Well actually, I have, and it was unsurprisingly just as frustrating.)
I mean, what if he was thinking about becoming a nurse, and the OP told him that he wouldn't be as good a nurse as a woman because men are cold and uncaring, and then laughed on principle at the idea of a "male nurse"? It's an "opinion," but it is personal. (And a major lack of support and respect.)
posted by stoneandstar at 1:18 PM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
No argument with this comment, but I think it's a pretty reasonable response when someone says you can't do something because of your sex to get tired of arguing that you can be "just as good as a man," because trying to prove that you're as good as the person who arbitrarily decided he was better than you is demoralizing. Eventually you want to take a shortcut and be like, "my gender has no bearing on it, I could be as good or better than a man, i.e., you." Because that's actually less insulting and confrontational than his initial statement! Just mentioning this because I think it's likely that it's another situation where the OP's boyfriend is framing the discussion, yet again. He's "merely expressing an opinion" about men and women (which happens to directly imply that he's better than her at leadership), but when she says "what the hell, maybe I'd be better than you" it's competitive. Ridiculous.
Obviously it's taking place in this dysfunctional context, but I think the fact that he's fucking laughing at you and your little lady desire to have a man's job like a jackoff is what is skewing this situation, you're mostly reacting to his insulting sexism. Everybody has their relationship issues they could improve on, but in this case, it's like dog paddling against a tsunami. Yeah, I don't know you, but nothing you've mentioned here is oversensitive or uncalled for. Sexism is an insult and a provocation, it's not a neutral judgment. It's bullshit. It sucks to date a sexist. I'm attracted to men and women and I wouldn't date a homophobe either. (Well actually, I have, and it was unsurprisingly just as frustrating.)
I mean, what if he was thinking about becoming a nurse, and the OP told him that he wouldn't be as good a nurse as a woman because men are cold and uncaring, and then laughed on principle at the idea of a "male nurse"? It's an "opinion," but it is personal. (And a major lack of support and respect.)
posted by stoneandstar at 1:18 PM on September 5, 2012 [6 favorites]
Also, I'm very concerned about that fact that he says you're "emotional" and "overreacting" to things. This is textbook gaslighting. It subtly tears you down and makes you feel like you are the one who's lucky enough to get to be with him, when in reality, he doesn't deserve to be with you.
posted by ethidda at 1:35 PM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by ethidda at 1:35 PM on September 5, 2012 [2 favorites]
It's unfortunate that Metafilter has adopted DTMFA as a shorthand for "time to break up." The expression, in its original context, applied to some really awful people. But by using it to say "break up," I think we sometimes unintentionally communicate to people that someone has to be a total monster, or at least a motherfucker, in order for you to break up with them. That "he's not a motherfucker" is a reason to stay in a relationship, rather than the absolute minimum ou should demand from every person you meet.
This is not a good guy. He doesn't treat you well, he doesn't respect you, and it seems like he doesn't do those things because you're a woman. If he's right that you're always competing with him, then yeah, that's not awesome, and you should work on it. But you should work on it with the next guy you date, because it's time to break up with this one.
posted by Ragged Richard at 3:52 PM on September 5, 2012 [10 favorites]
This is not a good guy. He doesn't treat you well, he doesn't respect you, and it seems like he doesn't do those things because you're a woman. If he's right that you're always competing with him, then yeah, that's not awesome, and you should work on it. But you should work on it with the next guy you date, because it's time to break up with this one.
posted by Ragged Richard at 3:52 PM on September 5, 2012 [10 favorites]
I'd like to add a very different viewpoint. My current boyfriend and I have these sorts of arguments. I think that most of the time, he handles his insecurities by being kind of a jerk. I grew up in a very dysfunctional environment, so it didn't even register for a while that he was being awful. At least he wasn't cheating on me, abusing me, or abandoning me with no warning. He is very demonstrative and complimentary most of the time -- in between these awful, defensive, weird fights.
This type of thing has gotten better over the past few months, not worse. I'm not 100% sure why. I think he trusts me more, and is willing to explain his emotions more to me. Or maybe he just cares more and is more afraid of losing me. He will now say things like "I started to feel really insecure when you said that, and then I really wanted to withdraw. But before I do that, I want to make sure you're okay." He also admits that he was a complete ass about some arguments we've had in the past.
He is also now encouraging me to tell him more when things bother me, and wants me to express my personality more even at the risk of conflict. It's still far from perfect, but it's better. Things seem to improve each time I go away for work for a couple of weeks, which gives him space to think about the relationship, and to miss me.
I'm not sure if this will get better or if it will follow the path of RuthlessBunny's 80-20 to 60-40 to... road to perdition. It's possible that things will get worse, and then we will probably break up.
There's something about our dynamic that doesn't lead to me fully trusting him, but again, this is much better than where I've been in the past. This is the best relationship I've ever had.
I would tentatively tell you to listen to the pile-on above because I'm far from an expert on relationships and you could probably do better and blah blah. But I'm not walking that talk, so I thought I'd share my viewpoint.
posted by 3491again at 4:31 PM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
This type of thing has gotten better over the past few months, not worse. I'm not 100% sure why. I think he trusts me more, and is willing to explain his emotions more to me. Or maybe he just cares more and is more afraid of losing me. He will now say things like "I started to feel really insecure when you said that, and then I really wanted to withdraw. But before I do that, I want to make sure you're okay." He also admits that he was a complete ass about some arguments we've had in the past.
He is also now encouraging me to tell him more when things bother me, and wants me to express my personality more even at the risk of conflict. It's still far from perfect, but it's better. Things seem to improve each time I go away for work for a couple of weeks, which gives him space to think about the relationship, and to miss me.
I'm not sure if this will get better or if it will follow the path of RuthlessBunny's 80-20 to 60-40 to... road to perdition. It's possible that things will get worse, and then we will probably break up.
There's something about our dynamic that doesn't lead to me fully trusting him, but again, this is much better than where I've been in the past. This is the best relationship I've ever had.
I would tentatively tell you to listen to the pile-on above because I'm far from an expert on relationships and you could probably do better and blah blah. But I'm not walking that talk, so I thought I'd share my viewpoint.
posted by 3491again at 4:31 PM on September 5, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have some questions for you. You don't need to answer them here. However, when you read this, answer the questions honestly with a yes or no. Don't add in any rationalizations or exceptions... just yes or no.
Have you made one or more attempts to discuss this with your partner? f you have discussed this, has your partner listened to what you said, made efforts to change, and apologized when he screwed up? If he has, you should give this relationship some time. People don't change themselves over time, and he may never change himself completely.
However, I don't believe this is what is happening in your situation. What I expect is this: you have discussed this, probably multiple times, and he has ignored what you said, made no effort to change, and belittled you when stated or re-stated your needs. The question you need to ask yourself is this: do you like the status quo of your relationship, including when he laughs at you and calls you ridiculous, that he tells you you overreact, that he only listens to you when you are ready to cry or scream?
Don't stay hoping things will get better. They won't. In fact, its far more likely that your relationship will deteriorate further. His emotional abuse will probably spread, and he might get violent.
Please, dump the motherfucker already.
posted by emilynoa at 4:33 PM on September 5, 2012
Have you made one or more attempts to discuss this with your partner? f you have discussed this, has your partner listened to what you said, made efforts to change, and apologized when he screwed up? If he has, you should give this relationship some time. People don't change themselves over time, and he may never change himself completely.
However, I don't believe this is what is happening in your situation. What I expect is this: you have discussed this, probably multiple times, and he has ignored what you said, made no effort to change, and belittled you when stated or re-stated your needs. The question you need to ask yourself is this: do you like the status quo of your relationship, including when he laughs at you and calls you ridiculous, that he tells you you overreact, that he only listens to you when you are ready to cry or scream?
Don't stay hoping things will get better. They won't. In fact, its far more likely that your relationship will deteriorate further. His emotional abuse will probably spread, and he might get violent.
Please, dump the motherfucker already.
posted by emilynoa at 4:33 PM on September 5, 2012
Let me say one other thing here:
He *is* expressing his concerns and fears to you, albeit in a very combative way. He is telling you that he is afraid that he wouldn't be as good a manager as you. That he is afraid of women's emotions. That he feels insecure and that he constantly is "less than" you.
These are his *real* concerns. All of the other stuff is just defensive bullshit. Maybe you could get to those real concerns more directly by addressing the competition between you -- like when he says:
"You have this thing where you’re constantly competing or comparing yourself with me and saying that whatever I do, you’re going to be as good at it or better at it than me. "
You can do some exploration and say, "Oh, so you feel like I'm comparing us all the time. What happens then?" Instead of apologizing or defending, just try to understand.
Then, maybe he could lower his defensive posture a bit, and you could both get better at being soft around each others' sore spots.
I dunno. I hate to buck the trend here because I'm no expert on relationships. But this type of thing has worked for me, at least so far.
Also, this book (about marriage) has been really helpful to me in learning how to transform discussions from defensive to cooperative. It will probably help you learn to communicate better in relationships, even if this one doesn't last.
posted by 3491again at 5:00 PM on September 5, 2012
He *is* expressing his concerns and fears to you, albeit in a very combative way. He is telling you that he is afraid that he wouldn't be as good a manager as you. That he is afraid of women's emotions. That he feels insecure and that he constantly is "less than" you.
These are his *real* concerns. All of the other stuff is just defensive bullshit. Maybe you could get to those real concerns more directly by addressing the competition between you -- like when he says:
"You have this thing where you’re constantly competing or comparing yourself with me and saying that whatever I do, you’re going to be as good at it or better at it than me. "
You can do some exploration and say, "Oh, so you feel like I'm comparing us all the time. What happens then?" Instead of apologizing or defending, just try to understand.
Then, maybe he could lower his defensive posture a bit, and you could both get better at being soft around each others' sore spots.
I dunno. I hate to buck the trend here because I'm no expert on relationships. But this type of thing has worked for me, at least so far.
Also, this book (about marriage) has been really helpful to me in learning how to transform discussions from defensive to cooperative. It will probably help you learn to communicate better in relationships, even if this one doesn't last.
posted by 3491again at 5:00 PM on September 5, 2012
This sounds like a really annoying conversation to have. Why did you engage in it?
I suggest you start with the rather neutral "I don't know how to respond to that." It buys you time without escalating things. You can follow up with "actually, I've decided that it doesn't make an ounce of difference in the world what either of us thinks about women managers, so I'm not going to argue about it."
Frankly, I can think of a bazillion responses to his initial "women don't make good managers" thing, ranging from condescending to compassionate (ish) to irate.
Comment on the process "Do you really need me to agree with you on this, because you have to know that I don't."
"Honey, how did women get on your bad side this week, and am I, as a woman, in your crosshairs?"
"I hope this isn't going to make it difficult for you to find a job -- because there's a pretty good chance, in this century, that you'll be working for a woman some day."
Or, engage in a conversation (not an argument) about it: "tell me more about this theory, I'm intrigued" and then ask lots of follow up questions.
Or divert "hey, instead of making broad generalizations about a group of people I am a part of, let's have sex! PS: critiquing women: not sexy!"
You can see that I'm having fun with some of these -- I just want you to know that YOUR goal doesn't have to be to correct him or win an argument. I know the incongruence between you is causing anxiety. You may one day decide his views are a deal breaker. Or you may be disappointed to find out he's so fragile and pouty. Or you may find it temporarily annoying and easily trained out of him.
He's totally projecting his own "emotionality" onto you. You are The Keeper Of Emotions in your relationship. But actually, getting angry about an "opinion" argument (and laughing rather than just acting angry) are pretty "emotional".
posted by vitabellosi at 6:06 PM on September 5, 2012
I suggest you start with the rather neutral "I don't know how to respond to that." It buys you time without escalating things. You can follow up with "actually, I've decided that it doesn't make an ounce of difference in the world what either of us thinks about women managers, so I'm not going to argue about it."
Frankly, I can think of a bazillion responses to his initial "women don't make good managers" thing, ranging from condescending to compassionate (ish) to irate.
Comment on the process "Do you really need me to agree with you on this, because you have to know that I don't."
"Honey, how did women get on your bad side this week, and am I, as a woman, in your crosshairs?"
"I hope this isn't going to make it difficult for you to find a job -- because there's a pretty good chance, in this century, that you'll be working for a woman some day."
Or, engage in a conversation (not an argument) about it: "tell me more about this theory, I'm intrigued" and then ask lots of follow up questions.
Or divert "hey, instead of making broad generalizations about a group of people I am a part of, let's have sex! PS: critiquing women: not sexy!"
You can see that I'm having fun with some of these -- I just want you to know that YOUR goal doesn't have to be to correct him or win an argument. I know the incongruence between you is causing anxiety. You may one day decide his views are a deal breaker. Or you may be disappointed to find out he's so fragile and pouty. Or you may find it temporarily annoying and easily trained out of him.
He's totally projecting his own "emotionality" onto you. You are The Keeper Of Emotions in your relationship. But actually, getting angry about an "opinion" argument (and laughing rather than just acting angry) are pretty "emotional".
posted by vitabellosi at 6:06 PM on September 5, 2012
Your boyfriend is an asshole. Sorry. You should dump him. Any of the following would be solid grounds to dump him:
1) Generalized idiotic sexism.
2) Manipulative pseudo-arguments.
3) Taking a fucking phone call during sex.
Unless his dick is so magic that it cures lepers and causes 24-hour hallucinogenic orgasms, there's nothing that you're getting here that you couldn't get out of any number of other dudes who aren't manipulative, dismissive assholes with penchants for sub-moronic sexism, disrespectful communication and TAKING A FUCKING PHONE CALL DURING SEX.
You've listed multiple dealbreakers for any sane, self-respecting woman. That he's not a shit constantly is no reason to put up with the times when he absolutely is.
posted by klangklangston at 6:10 PM on September 5, 2012 [13 favorites]
1) Generalized idiotic sexism.
2) Manipulative pseudo-arguments.
3) Taking a fucking phone call during sex.
Unless his dick is so magic that it cures lepers and causes 24-hour hallucinogenic orgasms, there's nothing that you're getting here that you couldn't get out of any number of other dudes who aren't manipulative, dismissive assholes with penchants for sub-moronic sexism, disrespectful communication and TAKING A FUCKING PHONE CALL DURING SEX.
You've listed multiple dealbreakers for any sane, self-respecting woman. That he's not a shit constantly is no reason to put up with the times when he absolutely is.
posted by klangklangston at 6:10 PM on September 5, 2012 [13 favorites]
What you describe is asshole behaviour. He's disrespectful to you, irrespective of any actual merits to his position (better in school <> smarter; smarter <> good manager -- his argument is bullshit). Smart, sensible people do not behave this way towards people they love, respect or care about in any way.
You need to find a way to leave, and you need to do it as soon as possible.
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 6:35 PM on September 5, 2012
You need to find a way to leave, and you need to do it as soon as possible.
posted by Heart_on_Sleeve at 6:35 PM on September 5, 2012
I'm sorry, because I'm sure you did not want to hear this.
When you start to realize that you want more from a man, things like respect, a listening ear, kindness, and support--and you will, then your current relationship will be over.
He may not be a MF, but he displays an awful lot of misogynistic behavior and needs to grow up.
If you seriously want to see if this relationship will work, then tell him you want to see a couple's therapist. I'll bet he won't go. At that point, I suggest you see a counselor on your own for a few sessions.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:28 PM on September 5, 2012
When you start to realize that you want more from a man, things like respect, a listening ear, kindness, and support--and you will, then your current relationship will be over.
He may not be a MF, but he displays an awful lot of misogynistic behavior and needs to grow up.
If you seriously want to see if this relationship will work, then tell him you want to see a couple's therapist. I'll bet he won't go. At that point, I suggest you see a counselor on your own for a few sessions.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:28 PM on September 5, 2012
He doesn't respect you, that makes him a MF. If you can be happy with that, don't dump him. But it doesn't read to me that you're all that happy.
posted by deborah at 11:13 PM on September 5, 2012
posted by deborah at 11:13 PM on September 5, 2012
I didn't read all the comments but I really want to chime in here: He deliberately provokes you until he gets an emotional response and then turns that response around on you. He is habitually a bully and absolutely a motherfucker. There is nothing you can say that will change this because he does not care about how his behavior impacts you. DTMFA.
posted by anaelith at 4:23 AM on September 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by anaelith at 4:23 AM on September 6, 2012 [2 favorites]
Your boyfriend is an asshole. I won't tell you to dump him, but... you should dump him.
posted by klanawa at 4:38 AM on September 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by klanawa at 4:38 AM on September 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
This isn’t the first time he’s laughed or called what I was talking about “ridiculous” before shutting down the dialogue by either saying “I’m not going to discuss this further with you” or physically leaving.
You say that you need to figure out a way to argue/communicate better with him, yet you explain in detail the ways he disrespects you and women in general. You've outlined a scary amount of evidence in favor of DTMFA just for the sake of self-respect! I hope you think well enough of yourself to do what's right for you.
posted by horizonseeker at 9:45 PM on September 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
You say that you need to figure out a way to argue/communicate better with him, yet you explain in detail the ways he disrespects you and women in general. You've outlined a scary amount of evidence in favor of DTMFA just for the sake of self-respect! I hope you think well enough of yourself to do what's right for you.
posted by horizonseeker at 9:45 PM on September 6, 2012 [1 favorite]
Your story reminded me of a man I was with for over two years.
He's disrespectful. And quite a few other unpleasant things.
The disrespect alone is enough to murder a relationship and any trust and intimacy and room for growth in a relationship.
The problem isn't you at all.
posted by MonkeySoprano at 5:35 AM on September 7, 2012
He's disrespectful. And quite a few other unpleasant things.
The disrespect alone is enough to murder a relationship and any trust and intimacy and room for growth in a relationship.
The problem isn't you at all.
posted by MonkeySoprano at 5:35 AM on September 7, 2012
Turn it around a bit and think of this:
If someone repeatedly said that he was better at something (whether a managerial position, grocery shopping, providing medical care for a sick person, changing a car tire or anything else) simply because he is white and another man is black, would you still think he wasn't being a jerk?
It comes down to precisely the same thing. This guy has absolutely zero respect for you (or any other woman, to be honest); please, DTMFA.
posted by easily confused at 3:12 PM on September 7, 2012
If someone repeatedly said that he was better at something (whether a managerial position, grocery shopping, providing medical care for a sick person, changing a car tire or anything else) simply because he is white and another man is black, would you still think he wasn't being a jerk?
It comes down to precisely the same thing. This guy has absolutely zero respect for you (or any other woman, to be honest); please, DTMFA.
posted by easily confused at 3:12 PM on September 7, 2012
I genuinely do not believe that anyone who can behave in the manner you are describing is a good person. He sounds hideous, and the way not to have these kinds of arguments is to stop believing that any good parts of his personality make up for such revolting MF behaviour.
posted by Edna Million at 10:42 PM on September 8, 2012
posted by Edna Million at 10:42 PM on September 8, 2012
“please don’t answer the phone when we’re in the middle of sex”
He answers the phone when you're having sex? I would dump him for that alone.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:02 PM on September 10, 2012
He answers the phone when you're having sex? I would dump him for that alone.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 3:02 PM on September 10, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
Your comment that he isn't a MF when you're not arguing is a bit strange to me, because he IS being a MF when you do argue. And a royal one at that.
I'm not sure that you can teach someone to respect you. I'd walk away.
posted by frizz at 7:27 AM on September 5, 2012 [14 favorites]