beggars can't be choosers?
June 21, 2012 11:21 AM Subscribe
Prospective job seems to require too much- or am I overreacting?
I am currently in the final stages of the application process for an entry-level-ish job (about 30K/year) at a well-known nonprofit organization. The first round required detailed explanations to some questions- not a problem. Then they sent more questions, again, I sent them detailed responses. Then they asked me to compose more responses based on the kind of prompt that I would encounter if I had the job. So far, so good, even though I had yet to meet with anyone at the actual organization yet. Finally, I had a phone interview with someone from the organization, at the conclusion of which they mentioned that they would ask me to come in and do a working interview over the course of a few days. Seemed a little ridiculous, but ok. Now that they've actually emailed me the details, I see that they are calling it a "volunteer working interview", ie, it's unpaid. And it consists of two 9-5 days "volunteering" at their office.
Now, I do really need a job. I'm unemployed at the moment, and I need to start making money soon. And I do think I'd be interested in working for this organization (although I haven't yet met in-person with anyone to get a feel for what it's like, which I guess the "volunteering" would address). But this just seems kind of outrageous to me- it makes me worry that they do not respect their employees' time, if they expect them to be OK with working for free just to prove their dedication (nothing about the job description or my understanding of the position indicates that it is of such complexity as to require two days worth of interviewing).
My question is, should I accept this as par for the course in today's competitive job market, or is this a red flag that this organization does not value their employee's time and will regularly expect them to work for free (explicitly or implicitly)?
Aside from what I have described, the other reason I have for being worried about the latter scenario is that this is an organization with a particular ideological goal which enjoys zealous support from certain quarters- so it's not outlandish to assume that many of their employees consider working for the cause to be its own reward. While I do support the cause, I also would like to be respected and appreciated for the work that I can do and the skills that I have, and have no desire to accept less pay or an overly punishing work environment just because of my personal beliefs.
I am not sure whether to confirm that I will be there for the two free work days, and just see how it goes; confirm but express reservations; or simply end the process now. During the phone interview, I did verbally indicate that these working interviews would be no problem, but at the time I didn't realize I was expected to perform them on a volunteer basis. I technically do have the time (I do occasionally get interviews from the temp agencies, but I could easily schedule them for other days) so I suppose I have nothing to lose, but I can't help but feel that this kind of expectation isn't a good sign. What do you think?
PS. If it helps you to understand my dilemma, imagine that this organization is one whose goals you support both ideologically and in your personal choices. For what it's worth, I imagine that the Mefi demographic is one that largely supports the mission of this organization, at least to some extent.
I am currently in the final stages of the application process for an entry-level-ish job (about 30K/year) at a well-known nonprofit organization. The first round required detailed explanations to some questions- not a problem. Then they sent more questions, again, I sent them detailed responses. Then they asked me to compose more responses based on the kind of prompt that I would encounter if I had the job. So far, so good, even though I had yet to meet with anyone at the actual organization yet. Finally, I had a phone interview with someone from the organization, at the conclusion of which they mentioned that they would ask me to come in and do a working interview over the course of a few days. Seemed a little ridiculous, but ok. Now that they've actually emailed me the details, I see that they are calling it a "volunteer working interview", ie, it's unpaid. And it consists of two 9-5 days "volunteering" at their office.
Now, I do really need a job. I'm unemployed at the moment, and I need to start making money soon. And I do think I'd be interested in working for this organization (although I haven't yet met in-person with anyone to get a feel for what it's like, which I guess the "volunteering" would address). But this just seems kind of outrageous to me- it makes me worry that they do not respect their employees' time, if they expect them to be OK with working for free just to prove their dedication (nothing about the job description or my understanding of the position indicates that it is of such complexity as to require two days worth of interviewing).
My question is, should I accept this as par for the course in today's competitive job market, or is this a red flag that this organization does not value their employee's time and will regularly expect them to work for free (explicitly or implicitly)?
Aside from what I have described, the other reason I have for being worried about the latter scenario is that this is an organization with a particular ideological goal which enjoys zealous support from certain quarters- so it's not outlandish to assume that many of their employees consider working for the cause to be its own reward. While I do support the cause, I also would like to be respected and appreciated for the work that I can do and the skills that I have, and have no desire to accept less pay or an overly punishing work environment just because of my personal beliefs.
I am not sure whether to confirm that I will be there for the two free work days, and just see how it goes; confirm but express reservations; or simply end the process now. During the phone interview, I did verbally indicate that these working interviews would be no problem, but at the time I didn't realize I was expected to perform them on a volunteer basis. I technically do have the time (I do occasionally get interviews from the temp agencies, but I could easily schedule them for other days) so I suppose I have nothing to lose, but I can't help but feel that this kind of expectation isn't a good sign. What do you think?
PS. If it helps you to understand my dilemma, imagine that this organization is one whose goals you support both ideologically and in your personal choices. For what it's worth, I imagine that the Mefi demographic is one that largely supports the mission of this organization, at least to some extent.
I assume this is in the US? If it is, they can't really do this - they're "permitting" you to work, which means they need to pay you minimum wage. They probably get away with it because no one complains.
Me, I'd be worried about a place that does this, because that's just a crappy way to treat people. But, if you are currently unemployed, and you like the place, I guess you don't have any reason not to try it. But, that's why people get away with it.
This just strikes me as really, really odd.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:30 AM on June 21, 2012 [4 favorites]
Me, I'd be worried about a place that does this, because that's just a crappy way to treat people. But, if you are currently unemployed, and you like the place, I guess you don't have any reason not to try it. But, that's why people get away with it.
This just strikes me as really, really odd.
posted by dpx.mfx at 11:30 AM on June 21, 2012 [4 favorites]
Go to Glassdoor.com and query this outfit. See if this is normal for this organization. They have lots of neat first person narratives regarding the interview process.
What concerns me about it is that it's a sales tactic. The more you invest in the process, the more you'll fight for the opportunity. You see this in multi-level marketing, or in car sales. They keep you in the process for an extended period of time, and then in your lizard brain, you start to believe that you can't walk away, not after all this time.
My instincts say walk away. If they're really interested in you as a candidate, this won't be an issue for them. Besides, in a non-profit, you have to develop boundaries or else you may get used up and burned out.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:31 AM on June 21, 2012 [13 favorites]
What concerns me about it is that it's a sales tactic. The more you invest in the process, the more you'll fight for the opportunity. You see this in multi-level marketing, or in car sales. They keep you in the process for an extended period of time, and then in your lizard brain, you start to believe that you can't walk away, not after all this time.
My instincts say walk away. If they're really interested in you as a candidate, this won't be an issue for them. Besides, in a non-profit, you have to develop boundaries or else you may get used up and burned out.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 11:31 AM on June 21, 2012 [13 favorites]
I love my job and I fully support my company's mission. But I would never work for free, and they would never expect me do. Because they're not assholes.
The fact that they would ask you to volunteer two full days of your time implies to me that they do not respect their employees, and have unrealistic expectations.
Especially if this is what they are asking at an entry level, you can almost guarantee that the frustrations to come out of this job are so not worth it.
You can always be polite but blunt- "I believe in the yadada movement and want to support it, however since i'm applying for a full time paid position here as a means of supporting myself, I am unable to commit to this time if there will be no compensation"
posted by sarahnicolesays at 11:35 AM on June 21, 2012 [6 favorites]
The fact that they would ask you to volunteer two full days of your time implies to me that they do not respect their employees, and have unrealistic expectations.
Especially if this is what they are asking at an entry level, you can almost guarantee that the frustrations to come out of this job are so not worth it.
You can always be polite but blunt- "I believe in the yadada movement and want to support it, however since i'm applying for a full time paid position here as a means of supporting myself, I am unable to commit to this time if there will be no compensation"
posted by sarahnicolesays at 11:35 AM on June 21, 2012 [6 favorites]
How does the organization expect to hire those who currently have jobs? This procedure would make me very uncomfortable. I would email them back and gush about how excited you are about the opportunity but that you've reviewed your schedule closely and it just can't accomodate 2 full days of a working interview — and that your availability is 9-12 on a particular day. Their response to this request will give you additional clues about how they will treat you as an employee and whether their interview procedure is something that reflects some sort of backward cluelessness, or whether it is something more underhanded.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 11:43 AM on June 21, 2012 [8 favorites]
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 11:43 AM on June 21, 2012 [8 favorites]
Answering this from a different perspective, because I actually have clients and usually evaluate if I want to do a project for/with them.I do think some of these things are important even from an employee perspective, though.
So I ask myself with many potential clients "Are there red flags?" Red flags in my world are paying someone late, not treating someone well (this includes freelancers/employees), poor quality work, etc.
This screams red flag in my mind (Free? Are they serious? It is okay for a test but 2 free days work?).
If someone asked me this my response would be "My day rate is X." Or a polite email stating that I don't support these practices, would be interested in an interview for employment, but am not available for free work. I would also outline a plan as to how to use the time,which would include:
--Volunteering for other organizations before doing this.
--Spending the time emailing every competing business with my CV because they consider you good enough to interview and use up your time and their time,surely a competitor would hire you;
- I would also consider writing online reviews about this company practice,including BBB.
Sorry,I'm mad just reading about this. Does their CEO work for free?
posted by Wolfster at 11:43 AM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
So I ask myself with many potential clients "Are there red flags?" Red flags in my world are paying someone late, not treating someone well (this includes freelancers/employees), poor quality work, etc.
This screams red flag in my mind (Free? Are they serious? It is okay for a test but 2 free days work?).
If someone asked me this my response would be "My day rate is X." Or a polite email stating that I don't support these practices, would be interested in an interview for employment, but am not available for free work. I would also outline a plan as to how to use the time,which would include:
--Volunteering for other organizations before doing this.
--Spending the time emailing every competing business with my CV because they consider you good enough to interview and use up your time and their time,surely a competitor would hire you;
- I would also consider writing online reviews about this company practice,including BBB.
Sorry,I'm mad just reading about this. Does their CEO work for free?
posted by Wolfster at 11:43 AM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
I've worked with non. profits for years and years, I worked my butt off to get a master's in order to qualify for work that started around 25k, so yeah, its kind of how it is. I quickly realized that a lot if not all the people, were either born in money, married to money, or divorced from money. In my case I was in historic preservation which I really didn't realize was kind of a rich person's game until much too late. They really were essentially working there for the priviledge, not the monetary compensation. It may seem really bizarre to do a working interview like that, but be assured there are lots of people more than willing to do it. This is going to happen whether or not they "can't really do this."
That being said, it does smack a bit of being unprofessionally run and that is somethign that would really bother me. If I'm not going to get paid much, I really want to enjoy and thrive and learn and grow from an experience. So I would consider this "interview" as much for you as it is for them. Do your homework though, get a hold of their annual report, read everything about them on Guidestar, ask around, google for dirt. If you get a position that translates to a similar corporate position, this can be really invaluable. Its like, if you are used to doing a whole lot with very little (support, supervision, cash, etc.) if you land another gig with access to lots of resources you can make remarkable things happen.
Just a little not about my first 25k dollar a year non profit job, it was crazy! It was hectic! The things asked of me were insane, but it was also an amazing three years. I couldn't give myself a raise, but I was tasked with funding my position and actvities. It quickly became apparent that I could do whatever I could figure out a way to pay for as long as it was tangentially related to the mission. That freedom was awesome! If I saw a need for an outreach component, I'd call a museum in some small city and we'd write a grant together and do it, so much fun! But again, really truly, not lucrative, ever. So, its up to you what you want and what you need and how you want to balance all that. Good Luck!
posted by stormygrey at 11:48 AM on June 21, 2012 [4 favorites]
That being said, it does smack a bit of being unprofessionally run and that is somethign that would really bother me. If I'm not going to get paid much, I really want to enjoy and thrive and learn and grow from an experience. So I would consider this "interview" as much for you as it is for them. Do your homework though, get a hold of their annual report, read everything about them on Guidestar, ask around, google for dirt. If you get a position that translates to a similar corporate position, this can be really invaluable. Its like, if you are used to doing a whole lot with very little (support, supervision, cash, etc.) if you land another gig with access to lots of resources you can make remarkable things happen.
Just a little not about my first 25k dollar a year non profit job, it was crazy! It was hectic! The things asked of me were insane, but it was also an amazing three years. I couldn't give myself a raise, but I was tasked with funding my position and actvities. It quickly became apparent that I could do whatever I could figure out a way to pay for as long as it was tangentially related to the mission. That freedom was awesome! If I saw a need for an outreach component, I'd call a museum in some small city and we'd write a grant together and do it, so much fun! But again, really truly, not lucrative, ever. So, its up to you what you want and what you need and how you want to balance all that. Good Luck!
posted by stormygrey at 11:48 AM on June 21, 2012 [4 favorites]
I would send this question to Alison Green at Ask A Manager. She only posts a tiny fraction of the letters she receives, but I've sent her a couple of questions which she has answered privately within the day. Her advice is usually quite good.
For me, personally: giant red flag. It sounds like they're violating the Fair Labor Act to me.
posted by KathrynT at 11:50 AM on June 21, 2012 [6 favorites]
For me, personally: giant red flag. It sounds like they're violating the Fair Labor Act to me.
posted by KathrynT at 11:50 AM on June 21, 2012 [6 favorites]
I've worked for several non-profits, large and small, and this, at least to me, sounds insane.
It's surprising because NPOs (especially in development, but for other staff too), tend to have relatively high turnover. Investing this much into the hiring process seems like a waste of time, unless they want you to come in and get you to file for free for two days. Which I would not totally put past a lot of non-profits.
I would say you could come in for a couple hours, but two full days unpaid seems a bit extreme. If they accept, good, you've got your interview, you're not wasting two days, and you've asserted yourself and made it clear you won't just jump whenever they say to. If they say no, then I say good riddance, you dodged a bullet.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
It's surprising because NPOs (especially in development, but for other staff too), tend to have relatively high turnover. Investing this much into the hiring process seems like a waste of time, unless they want you to come in and get you to file for free for two days. Which I would not totally put past a lot of non-profits.
I would say you could come in for a couple hours, but two full days unpaid seems a bit extreme. If they accept, good, you've got your interview, you're not wasting two days, and you've asserted yourself and made it clear you won't just jump whenever they say to. If they say no, then I say good riddance, you dodged a bullet.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
I work at an nonprofit with some volunteers and many barely-paid interns. We would consider requiring applicants to work for us for two full days unpaid to be an abusive and unethical as a hiring practice. Even though many of the paid staff feel that we would do this work for free and certainly make less than our private sector peers, we do not feel that that the moral good of our mission, nor our hope to see it succeed, justifies failing to compensate professionals for their time. We accept pro bono hours from professionals because they offer it, not as some weird quid pro quo, and because it supports our mission. I don't know of a single organization in our local community that would expect applicants for a paid position to do two days' work for free as part of the interview process, although I know of many that hire former volunteers all the time. The latter is how professional networking works; the former is how taking advantage of the faithful works.
Refusing is the right thing to do, which is easy to say when I have a job, but I don't think you're over-reacting to consider this an onerous demand. It seems like a bright red flag to me.
posted by crush-onastick at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
Refusing is the right thing to do, which is easy to say when I have a job, but I don't think you're over-reacting to consider this an onerous demand. It seems like a bright red flag to me.
posted by crush-onastick at 11:53 AM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
I would find this so offensive, and such a big warning sign, that I would not pursue any association with them any further.
It sounds like the kind of thing that would be done by a company that also can't make payroll. It's that bad.
I guess some people will say "well, if you really want the job..." or "that's how the labor market is these days" but they're stringing you along. No-one who's ever strung me along has ever had anything to offer at the end of it. I understand that you're out of work, but that's the only thing that has ever made me willing to be strung along - the cat stringer appeared to be offering something I desperately needed or wanted.
YMMV of course, I would assume this was just appearance and they don't really have a job for you, or else they have a job but surprise! they won't be able to pay you! or will expect so much from you that it in one way or another costs you more than you earn. You would be wasting time and effort that could go into getting paid employment.
I think that saying "my day rate is X" will be sufficient to get rid of them.
posted by tel3path at 11:58 AM on June 21, 2012
It sounds like the kind of thing that would be done by a company that also can't make payroll. It's that bad.
I guess some people will say "well, if you really want the job..." or "that's how the labor market is these days" but they're stringing you along. No-one who's ever strung me along has ever had anything to offer at the end of it. I understand that you're out of work, but that's the only thing that has ever made me willing to be strung along - the cat stringer appeared to be offering something I desperately needed or wanted.
YMMV of course, I would assume this was just appearance and they don't really have a job for you, or else they have a job but surprise! they won't be able to pay you! or will expect so much from you that it in one way or another costs you more than you earn. You would be wasting time and effort that could go into getting paid employment.
I think that saying "my day rate is X" will be sufficient to get rid of them.
posted by tel3path at 11:58 AM on June 21, 2012
I also work at a non-profit, salary in the upper 20s range. While it's true that many people in my office are independently wealthy, we also have several young people who recently graduated (me) and I know for a fact they would NEVER ask them to work for free.
It is extremely common for young people to volunteer as a way to get their foot in the door, or maybe do an unpaid internship, but for the org. to ask you to work for free as part of the interview process is really, really dodgy.
posted by Tarumba at 11:59 AM on June 21, 2012
It is extremely common for young people to volunteer as a way to get their foot in the door, or maybe do an unpaid internship, but for the org. to ask you to work for free as part of the interview process is really, really dodgy.
posted by Tarumba at 11:59 AM on June 21, 2012
On the one hand, I can understand wanting to make sure you and the rest of the team work well together and are a good fit personality-wise, especially if it's a small org or a small team and you'll be working closely together (as is common in nonprofits). I've certainly worked closely and intensely with people who I really wished I'd had a trial-run with first.
On the other hand, two full days seems excessive, and when I was a young and desperate job-seeker I personally experienced two "working interviews" that were huge scams: one promised pay, but only if I stuck it out for 30 days and met their seemingly impossible (and kinda degrading) performance goals, and the other clearly just wanted to get some free work out of me before telling me that the original job terms (specifically the salary and reliability of the work) weren't actually what we'd originally discussed.
It may also be a way of weeding out people who can't handle the type or intensity of the work--maybe they keep hiring people who, after a few days, realize that it isn't what the expected and then quit. Having them realize that before all the hiring paperwork gets done is going to be much easier on the company than having to go through the termination process for a real employee. But I consider that borderline shady, or at least poorly-managed, because at that point they should figure out they need to communicate the job requirements and expectations better.
Definitely do some research on this specific company, and think long and hard about it. If the work you'll be doing is in any way commission- or performance-based (payment contingent on how many signatures/donations/pledges you get), or involves creating a product the company earns revenue from, I'd be extra-wary.
posted by rhiannonstone at 11:59 AM on June 21, 2012
On the other hand, two full days seems excessive, and when I was a young and desperate job-seeker I personally experienced two "working interviews" that were huge scams: one promised pay, but only if I stuck it out for 30 days and met their seemingly impossible (and kinda degrading) performance goals, and the other clearly just wanted to get some free work out of me before telling me that the original job terms (specifically the salary and reliability of the work) weren't actually what we'd originally discussed.
It may also be a way of weeding out people who can't handle the type or intensity of the work--maybe they keep hiring people who, after a few days, realize that it isn't what the expected and then quit. Having them realize that before all the hiring paperwork gets done is going to be much easier on the company than having to go through the termination process for a real employee. But I consider that borderline shady, or at least poorly-managed, because at that point they should figure out they need to communicate the job requirements and expectations better.
Definitely do some research on this specific company, and think long and hard about it. If the work you'll be doing is in any way commission- or performance-based (payment contingent on how many signatures/donations/pledges you get), or involves creating a product the company earns revenue from, I'd be extra-wary.
posted by rhiannonstone at 11:59 AM on June 21, 2012
if it is one of the alternatives rhiannonstone has thought of, a short email explaining your concerns and asking them to explain why they have decided on such an unusual arrangement will provide you with a good idea of their reliability.
No/vague/defensive response = scam
reasonable argument, understanding your doubts = probably not scam
other than an email, a visit could give you more clues (you can see their reaction to your questions)
posted by Tarumba at 12:05 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
No/vague/defensive response = scam
reasonable argument, understanding your doubts = probably not scam
other than an email, a visit could give you more clues (you can see their reaction to your questions)
posted by Tarumba at 12:05 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
The red flags are waving. Heck, they burst into flames the second these people asked you to work for TWO DAYS FOR FREE. If this is what they're expecting of you before they have even hired you, I shudder to think what working there would be like.
posted by futureisunwritten at 12:09 PM on June 21, 2012 [9 favorites]
posted by futureisunwritten at 12:09 PM on June 21, 2012 [9 favorites]
Seems crazy to me -- is there any way you can talk to someone who has your same position to investigate the working environment? In the best case scenario, they're doing this because they're so popular a cause that they're flooded with applicants, and they need to weed out the flakes. Worst case scenario, they're testing your dedication to the cause before you even get hired, and you're correct that they expect you to WANT to do it for free.
posted by yarly at 12:14 PM on June 21, 2012
posted by yarly at 12:14 PM on June 21, 2012
Rereading, I'm disturbed that so many people are asking you to probe further to see if they're the kind of people for whom this would be a reasonable request.
It's an unreasonable request and probably worse, therefore, they are the kind of people who would make an unreasonable request and probably worse.
I honestly don't think there is anything here worth probing. I think a request like this is one of those "automatic rejection" things.
posted by tel3path at 12:20 PM on June 21, 2012 [3 favorites]
It's an unreasonable request and probably worse, therefore, they are the kind of people who would make an unreasonable request and probably worse.
I honestly don't think there is anything here worth probing. I think a request like this is one of those "automatic rejection" things.
posted by tel3path at 12:20 PM on June 21, 2012 [3 favorites]
The only part that seems totally crazy in this scenario is the part where you don't get paid. I have worked at a couple different non-profits where I was part of the fundraising team doing canvassing work (street canvassing with Greenpeace and Environment California) and at both of those jobs they set up the hiring process as such:
Once you get past the initial interview and they ask you to come in for your first day, You are sent out into the world to try and canvas people on the street for money. If you meet a certain quota by the end of the third (or sometimes second) day, you are all set with the job; if you cannot meet that quota, you do not continue with the job. At both places, you ALWAYS get paid for those first days. Always, always, always. Even if you are terrible at selling and waste your bosses time, you still get paid. The fact that they are asking you to volunteer is super weird and like nearly everyone else has said, very much a red flag.
posted by ruhroh at 12:22 PM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
Once you get past the initial interview and they ask you to come in for your first day, You are sent out into the world to try and canvas people on the street for money. If you meet a certain quota by the end of the third (or sometimes second) day, you are all set with the job; if you cannot meet that quota, you do not continue with the job. At both places, you ALWAYS get paid for those first days. Always, always, always. Even if you are terrible at selling and waste your bosses time, you still get paid. The fact that they are asking you to volunteer is super weird and like nearly everyone else has said, very much a red flag.
posted by ruhroh at 12:22 PM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'm going to go against the prevailing grain here. I work in the nonprofit sector and have a master's degree in nonprofit management, and I've done a lot of hiring. I have never ever done this but have peripherally heard of it at organizations that are run by people who have been thrust into management positions when they are trained as service providers. If you had a full-time job right at this moment or were in a position where you'd be sacrificing paid work to try this thing out, I'd say no way. But you're not doing anything else.
This is absolutely not par for the course in today's competitive job market, but if you're really not doing anything else those days, give it a shot. Especially if you'd be hanging out at home otherwise. It gets you into a workplace, into a mindset of working, and lets you meet people who you have a very good chance of impressing, even if you may not get - or even want - the job.
So I'd advise going in with an open mind, with this question at the tip of your tongue: "Is this something I'd be doing on a regular basis at this job?" And, "How have previous people in this position performed this duty?" If you already like the cause, go in with a mindset that you're auditioning them, not the other way around. If something feels weird, just walk away. You're not obligated to slave away for two days. If you're gaining something worthwhile, keep at it. If you think you're being used as slave labor, just walk away.
posted by juniperesque at 1:20 PM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
This is absolutely not par for the course in today's competitive job market, but if you're really not doing anything else those days, give it a shot. Especially if you'd be hanging out at home otherwise. It gets you into a workplace, into a mindset of working, and lets you meet people who you have a very good chance of impressing, even if you may not get - or even want - the job.
So I'd advise going in with an open mind, with this question at the tip of your tongue: "Is this something I'd be doing on a regular basis at this job?" And, "How have previous people in this position performed this duty?" If you already like the cause, go in with a mindset that you're auditioning them, not the other way around. If something feels weird, just walk away. You're not obligated to slave away for two days. If you're gaining something worthwhile, keep at it. If you think you're being used as slave labor, just walk away.
posted by juniperesque at 1:20 PM on June 21, 2012 [2 favorites]
Two eight-hour days of unpaid labor under the guise of a "volunteer working interview" is ludicrous. Even if you don't have a full-time job, your time is still worth something and that's 16 hours you could be searching for a position at an organization which wouldn't make such outlandish requests. I also think this a huge red flag. If they are willing to ask for 16 hours of unpaid labor when you aren't even part of the organization, imagine what they'll expect once you're an employee. In this tough job market, I normally would say give it a go and make up your mind once you have an offer in hand, but this is just so ridiculous, I think I'd remove myself from consideration as professionally as possible. If they had asked for something more reasonable, say a 4 hour "volunteer working interview," that would be worth doing, but this request is well beyond that.
posted by katemcd at 1:47 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by katemcd at 1:47 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
I am a fundraising trainer to non-profits and this is a completely normal request in this economy. When things are better you may not have to a volunteer trial but right now there is such a glut of workers that non-profits can afford to be picky.
This is the only thing that really matters with this effort: Is this organization important enough to you that you would work here as a volunteer, especially if they asked you to do something you were not familiar with?
Sorry it has to be this way, but I do not think you can argue with them about it. They probably have other candidates (although not in-house clearly) who could be willing if they were asked after the interview you went through. It is not a serious issue and as I said, fairly regular in this economy.
posted by parmanparman at 2:01 PM on June 21, 2012
This is the only thing that really matters with this effort: Is this organization important enough to you that you would work here as a volunteer, especially if they asked you to do something you were not familiar with?
Sorry it has to be this way, but I do not think you can argue with them about it. They probably have other candidates (although not in-house clearly) who could be willing if they were asked after the interview you went through. It is not a serious issue and as I said, fairly regular in this economy.
posted by parmanparman at 2:01 PM on June 21, 2012
You've already done all that work and they still aren't sure about you enough to obviate two full working days in the office? It's either a scam or their HR is incompetent, and in general is possibly illegal.
posted by rhizome at 2:26 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 2:26 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm going to be a contrarian and note that without the unpaid work I did for an admittedly sketchy organization, I would never have gotten a part-time job there, and that job enabled a lot of things that I wanted and needed.
So, go in on the first day, remembering that you are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. Once they tell you what you'll be doing, you can either judge them sketchy (ie "that's grunt work that won't tell them what I'm like") or reasonable (ah, I see how that doesn't really benefit them much, but it does tell them a lot about me") and proceed accordingly...and if unsure, you can ask questions or just get started and see how you feel.
At the end of the day, you can leave at any time (even after you've taken the job for actual cash) so there's no harm in showing up; just leave if you don't like the vibe. It is entirely possible that this is how they weed out a large number of people who are very interested in the cause, but not in the actual work that they need folks to do (and that motivation would be independent of whether this is a good method of actually doing that.)
posted by davejay at 2:45 PM on June 21, 2012
So, go in on the first day, remembering that you are interviewing them as much as they're interviewing you. Once they tell you what you'll be doing, you can either judge them sketchy (ie "that's grunt work that won't tell them what I'm like") or reasonable (ah, I see how that doesn't really benefit them much, but it does tell them a lot about me") and proceed accordingly...and if unsure, you can ask questions or just get started and see how you feel.
At the end of the day, you can leave at any time (even after you've taken the job for actual cash) so there's no harm in showing up; just leave if you don't like the vibe. It is entirely possible that this is how they weed out a large number of people who are very interested in the cause, but not in the actual work that they need folks to do (and that motivation would be independent of whether this is a good method of actually doing that.)
posted by davejay at 2:45 PM on June 21, 2012
I agree this sounds sketchy. Their hearts might be in the right place, but it sounds like they have no idea how to run an organization.
What I would do to split the difference is to say something like "my time is valuable, as it yours. I am not comfortable working for free. If you insist upon it, I would agree to the following: I will "donate" that time IF I get the job. But if I don't get the job, I will expect to be paid $X for my time."
posted by gjc at 3:00 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
What I would do to split the difference is to say something like "my time is valuable, as it yours. I am not comfortable working for free. If you insist upon it, I would agree to the following: I will "donate" that time IF I get the job. But if I don't get the job, I will expect to be paid $X for my time."
posted by gjc at 3:00 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think that the organization is wrong to do this, but that it is still probably a good idea for you, personally, to go in for the "interview."
posted by mskyle at 3:01 PM on June 21, 2012
posted by mskyle at 3:01 PM on June 21, 2012
You could always just walk out if you decide it's bullshit.
If you get there and they just want you to do some filing for free or whatever, you can walk out. I was in a position a few months ago where I was unemployed and was asked in for a few interviews that were a waste of my time and I was just thinking about how much more annoyed I would have been if I had taken time off from work to do them. Trust me I am familiar with the desperate feeling too...
In this case I might be curious enough to see what they want from you. Maybe it's like a job shadowing type of thing instead of them just having you do grunt work for free.
Not sure, I'm torn between thinking it's ridiculous and offensive and being curious as to what this sort of thing would entail.
posted by fromageball at 3:28 PM on June 21, 2012
If you get there and they just want you to do some filing for free or whatever, you can walk out. I was in a position a few months ago where I was unemployed and was asked in for a few interviews that were a waste of my time and I was just thinking about how much more annoyed I would have been if I had taken time off from work to do them. Trust me I am familiar with the desperate feeling too...
In this case I might be curious enough to see what they want from you. Maybe it's like a job shadowing type of thing instead of them just having you do grunt work for free.
Not sure, I'm torn between thinking it's ridiculous and offensive and being curious as to what this sort of thing would entail.
posted by fromageball at 3:28 PM on June 21, 2012
I've heard of this "working interview" thing but never experienced it, and my hearsay is not in the same sector. Everything I've ever heard about it indicates that it's a scam and it's not legal, but you should check with your area.
You are either volunteering, you are training, or you are being interviewed. Trying to roll all that up into one thing over two 8 hour days sounds sketchy to me. But there's no real harm in going down there to see exactly what's up, if you want.
posted by sm1tten at 4:24 PM on June 21, 2012
You are either volunteering, you are training, or you are being interviewed. Trying to roll all that up into one thing over two 8 hour days sounds sketchy to me. But there's no real harm in going down there to see exactly what's up, if you want.
posted by sm1tten at 4:24 PM on June 21, 2012
Ask for an hour in-person interview as a condition of the two day "working" interview. Hopefully, you'll get a better feel for what's going on.
posted by cnc at 4:59 PM on June 21, 2012
posted by cnc at 4:59 PM on June 21, 2012
Weird, but could make sense for an organization that has some very strong protections against being fired -- they want to see you in reality before hiring you, because they'll be stuck once they do.
posted by MattD at 5:01 PM on June 21, 2012
posted by MattD at 5:01 PM on June 21, 2012
I don't think this request is necessarily a sign that they don't respect you or your time. I think it's more that they probably just take themselves WAY too seriously.
"We all work so closely together we HAVE to all get along (because we are too conflict averse to ever fire anybody)."
"The mission of our organization is so important that the future of the universe hinges on us finding the exact right person for this job, so we have to spend 16+ hrs interviewing them."
"Working at this organization is so awesome that no one would mind spending 2 days gratis working here. It's like getting a backstage pass!"
posted by selfmedicating at 6:20 PM on June 21, 2012
"We all work so closely together we HAVE to all get along (because we are too conflict averse to ever fire anybody)."
"The mission of our organization is so important that the future of the universe hinges on us finding the exact right person for this job, so we have to spend 16+ hrs interviewing them."
"Working at this organization is so awesome that no one would mind spending 2 days gratis working here. It's like getting a backstage pass!"
posted by selfmedicating at 6:20 PM on June 21, 2012
I once had a job interview where, after a one-hour job interview, they requested that I go on a full-day extended interview for them for free. The job, I gathered after the 1-hour interview, was full-on door-to-door and business-to-business sales, and my impression was that this one-day thing would be DOING those cold-call sales for a full day, for free. Further, I had found the job posting originally on craigslist, and they clearly were bringing many people in over and over throughout the day, every day.
My impression, ultimately, was that the situation was more than a little scammy: they would use all the "interviewers" as free labor, and they would probably almost never hire someone after their day-long "interview." (I facebook stalked some of the names, and there did seem to be a few people who were legitimately hired by the company. My guess was that they probably justified the scam in their minds by hiring the one in five-thousand people who were able to make a sell in the one day without any prior training, or something along those lines.) I didn't go on the day-long interview.
Alternatively, I am now working in an industry (and these days there are many such industries) in which it was for all practical purposes impossible to get hired without (the connections created by) doing a months-long unpaid internship or two. Which I did. On some level, this one day interview thing is clearly less of a scam than the unpaid internship thing. And yet, I signed up for the latter and didn't sign up for the former.
------
In short, I would be VERY skeptical of this two-day interview... and yet, if I *REALLY* wanted to work for this organization, I might yet do it.
posted by lewedswiver at 7:28 PM on June 21, 2012
My impression, ultimately, was that the situation was more than a little scammy: they would use all the "interviewers" as free labor, and they would probably almost never hire someone after their day-long "interview." (I facebook stalked some of the names, and there did seem to be a few people who were legitimately hired by the company. My guess was that they probably justified the scam in their minds by hiring the one in five-thousand people who were able to make a sell in the one day without any prior training, or something along those lines.) I didn't go on the day-long interview.
Alternatively, I am now working in an industry (and these days there are many such industries) in which it was for all practical purposes impossible to get hired without (the connections created by) doing a months-long unpaid internship or two. Which I did. On some level, this one day interview thing is clearly less of a scam than the unpaid internship thing. And yet, I signed up for the latter and didn't sign up for the former.
------
In short, I would be VERY skeptical of this two-day interview... and yet, if I *REALLY* wanted to work for this organization, I might yet do it.
posted by lewedswiver at 7:28 PM on June 21, 2012
1. Don't work for them for free
2. Name names! What is the organization?
When I was just graduated and naive and idealistic (and poor and unemployed), I spent a whole day plus gas money for about a 150-mile round trip drive to do a day-long interview with the nonprofit PIRG, during which I had to go out soliciting signatures on petitions from the public and run through simulations of other tasks that would be done out of that particular office, such as demonstrating how we would communicate at a mock press conference. This was like ten years ago and there was a big group of us doing this. I wonder if they hired any of them.
I know they do good work, but personally I felt like a sucker. I assumed they had filtered resumes to the point that they were only interviewing a few applicants who they felt confident were suited, by background and qualification, to a specific job opening at their organization. I think what they were doing was calling in just about everyone who had a college degree, could form a coherent sentence, and was more-or-less on board with their mission. Then they were putting 20-30 candidates at a time through a full day of crazy PIRG boot camp to weed out most of us, get some petitions signed for the low cost of free, and see who would happily throw themselves into it and enthusiastically come back for more.
So maybe your nonprofit is like this. And hey if you are lucky, maybe you will get hired at a place where the low pay/poor benefits/long hours are acceptable, because you BELIEVE.. and necessary, because the worker bees have to compensate for the shortcomings of organizational dysfunction and terrible management.
Liberal nonprofits need to treat their staff better and pay people a fair wage for a honest day's work before they worry about making change on anything else.
posted by citron at 8:48 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
2. Name names! What is the organization?
When I was just graduated and naive and idealistic (and poor and unemployed), I spent a whole day plus gas money for about a 150-mile round trip drive to do a day-long interview with the nonprofit PIRG, during which I had to go out soliciting signatures on petitions from the public and run through simulations of other tasks that would be done out of that particular office, such as demonstrating how we would communicate at a mock press conference. This was like ten years ago and there was a big group of us doing this. I wonder if they hired any of them.
I know they do good work, but personally I felt like a sucker. I assumed they had filtered resumes to the point that they were only interviewing a few applicants who they felt confident were suited, by background and qualification, to a specific job opening at their organization. I think what they were doing was calling in just about everyone who had a college degree, could form a coherent sentence, and was more-or-less on board with their mission. Then they were putting 20-30 candidates at a time through a full day of crazy PIRG boot camp to weed out most of us, get some petitions signed for the low cost of free, and see who would happily throw themselves into it and enthusiastically come back for more.
So maybe your nonprofit is like this. And hey if you are lucky, maybe you will get hired at a place where the low pay/poor benefits/long hours are acceptable, because you BELIEVE.. and necessary, because the worker bees have to compensate for the shortcomings of organizational dysfunction and terrible management.
Liberal nonprofits need to treat their staff better and pay people a fair wage for a honest day's work before they worry about making change on anything else.
posted by citron at 8:48 PM on June 21, 2012 [1 favorite]
I can't remember a time in the last 20 years when the economy hasn't been "this economy" and employers haven't been in a position to pick and choose. I do understand that it is becoming more normal to work for free, especially in the UK where unemployed people are staffing businesses at the taxpayer's expense. The law of wages states that the worker will receive the smallest amount for which he will agree to reproduce, and since in more and more cases that amount is nothing, we'd all better get used to working for free for longer and longer periods of time in exchange for the possibility of payment in the future.
Go ahead and do this, OP, if you are so desperate for work that you will give up everything, including pay, to get it. I actually do not agree that you are the one who will benefit from it, but if it's as socially acceptable as this you may need to start getting used to it.
posted by tel3path at 12:33 AM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Go ahead and do this, OP, if you are so desperate for work that you will give up everything, including pay, to get it. I actually do not agree that you are the one who will benefit from it, but if it's as socially acceptable as this you may need to start getting used to it.
posted by tel3path at 12:33 AM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
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posted by PercussivePaul at 11:30 AM on June 21, 2012 [5 favorites]