Don't argue with me!
May 16, 2012 2:44 PM Subscribe
What's wrong with this argument?
This bugs the hell out of me, but I don't know the right way to refute it. The argument basically is, "Well, it's his money, he can do what he want with it."
Scenario: My friend C and I have a mutual friend, B. B has recently acquired a sugar daddy (I know, what is this, the 1930s? Anyway....) Sugardaddy has strongly advised B, who is still paying a mortgage on her house, to buy a small house to rent out. As an "investment." Oy!
Not only is being an absentee landlord a bad idea on the face of it, but B has no prior experience in such financial doings. C and I wonder why Sugardaddy doesn't just pay off B's mortgage, if he wants to see her financially comfortable. We mused a while, then C tosses off, "Well, it's B's money, she can do what she likes with it." This makes me crazy.
Even at the cost of her current (precarious) financial well-being? C has a kid; what about his future college savings? And on and on I go, filled to the brim why this is a bad idea.
What's my snappy, irrefutable comeback?
This bugs the hell out of me, but I don't know the right way to refute it. The argument basically is, "Well, it's his money, he can do what he want with it."
Scenario: My friend C and I have a mutual friend, B. B has recently acquired a sugar daddy (I know, what is this, the 1930s? Anyway....) Sugardaddy has strongly advised B, who is still paying a mortgage on her house, to buy a small house to rent out. As an "investment." Oy!
Not only is being an absentee landlord a bad idea on the face of it, but B has no prior experience in such financial doings. C and I wonder why Sugardaddy doesn't just pay off B's mortgage, if he wants to see her financially comfortable. We mused a while, then C tosses off, "Well, it's B's money, she can do what she likes with it." This makes me crazy.
Even at the cost of her current (precarious) financial well-being? C has a kid; what about his future college savings? And on and on I go, filled to the brim why this is a bad idea.
What's my snappy, irrefutable comeback?
There might not be a snappy comeback -- I think "Well, it's his money, he can do what he want with it." is an encoded message meaning "I don't want to gossip about other people's financial situations."
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:48 PM on May 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by AzraelBrown at 2:48 PM on May 16, 2012 [11 favorites]
It’s not an argument, and it’s not wrong. It’s not saying that the idea is a good one, it’s saying that it’s not up to you.
posted by bongo_x at 2:49 PM on May 16, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 2:49 PM on May 16, 2012 [6 favorites]
Nothing. It's a correct statement. It's their money, and they can decide what to do with it. They're probably the ones who are in the best position to look at all the relevant factors and make a decision consistent with their priorities and values.
posted by John Cohen at 2:55 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by John Cohen at 2:55 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
I think there is an argument there. From the fact that the money involved is his, you are lead to the conclusion that he can do whatever he wants with it. There must be an implicit premise as well, and I suspect the conclusion is not meant to be as broad as it is stated. I'd read it as follows:
Premise: This money is his money.
Implicit Premise: If a person has money, that person can do anything that is not otherwise morally wrong with that money.
Conclusion: He can do anything that is not otherwise morally wrong with that money.
Now, with that said, I agree with the general sentiment expressed above: if you treat this statement as an argument, rather than a general dismissal of concern, you may be missing the point significantly. I think the argumentative structure of the utterance isn't so much as the implied point: it's not your place to tell him what to do.
If you really do want to argue against the line of reasoning spelled out above, you'd probably do best by focusing on the second, implied, premise.
posted by meese at 2:57 PM on May 16, 2012
Premise: This money is his money.
Implicit Premise: If a person has money, that person can do anything that is not otherwise morally wrong with that money.
Conclusion: He can do anything that is not otherwise morally wrong with that money.
Now, with that said, I agree with the general sentiment expressed above: if you treat this statement as an argument, rather than a general dismissal of concern, you may be missing the point significantly. I think the argumentative structure of the utterance isn't so much as the implied point: it's not your place to tell him what to do.
If you really do want to argue against the line of reasoning spelled out above, you'd probably do best by focusing on the second, implied, premise.
posted by meese at 2:57 PM on May 16, 2012
C doesn't think you should get involved, you think that you should get involved because you fear for B's long term stability and piece of mind.
Talking to B about being a landlord (and how much it can suck) is probably a good idea. Talking to other people first to make sure you don't have abnormal landlord experiences is also good but it seems like C just doesn't want to get involved (for any number of legit reasons).
As for the 'argument' over the finances... C is right in that its B's own money, and he can/will do what he wants with it. That shouldn't stop you from talking with B.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:58 PM on May 16, 2012
Talking to B about being a landlord (and how much it can suck) is probably a good idea. Talking to other people first to make sure you don't have abnormal landlord experiences is also good but it seems like C just doesn't want to get involved (for any number of legit reasons).
As for the 'argument' over the finances... C is right in that its B's own money, and he can/will do what he wants with it. That shouldn't stop you from talking with B.
posted by Slackermagee at 2:58 PM on May 16, 2012
The statement boils down to this: Other people's mistakes are theirs to make. Even the really big, obvious ones.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:59 PM on May 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 2:59 PM on May 16, 2012 [7 favorites]
what is there to refute here? it is B's money and she should be able to do what she likes with it without others—including you—dictating to her what that should be. i mean, as B's friend, you can certainly cautiously give your opinion and talk to her about your concerns, but the ultimate decision about what to do with her money belongs to B, not you.
posted by violetk at 3:01 PM on May 16, 2012
posted by violetk at 3:01 PM on May 16, 2012
It sounds like it's actually the "sugar daddy"'s money, in which case your friend will probably spend it in the ways he encourages her to spend it when he gives it to her.
posted by milk white peacock at 3:04 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by milk white peacock at 3:04 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
While I agree with everyone else, I'll answer your question:
What's wrong is exactly what C is saying. Yes, it's B's money, to do whatever B wants to do with it, not what her sug...uh, benefactor...tells her to do with it.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:39 PM on May 16, 2012
What's wrong is exactly what C is saying. Yes, it's B's money, to do whatever B wants to do with it, not what her sug...uh, benefactor...tells her to do with it.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:39 PM on May 16, 2012
Best answer: "Well, it's B's money, she can do what she wants with it!"
"Absolutely. Still, I care about B, and I really worry that she's making a bad choice. If you don't want to talk about it, I understand."
posted by davejay at 3:46 PM on May 16, 2012
"Absolutely. Still, I care about B, and I really worry that she's making a bad choice. If you don't want to talk about it, I understand."
posted by davejay at 3:46 PM on May 16, 2012
What does C's kid's college fund have to do with B's buying a house? Is there more to the story?
posted by desjardins at 4:03 PM on May 16, 2012
posted by desjardins at 4:03 PM on May 16, 2012
What does C's kid's college fund have to do with B's buying a house? Is there more to the story?
I think the point is that the original poster believes that if C holds this view, i.e. that it is a person's irrefutable right to do what they please with their own money regardless of wider obligations, then C will regard it as acceptable to one day spend the "college fund" money on some self-indulgent whim with the defence of "well, it was my own money, so I could do what I liked with it".
posted by Jabberwocky at 4:35 PM on May 16, 2012
I think the point is that the original poster believes that if C holds this view, i.e. that it is a person's irrefutable right to do what they please with their own money regardless of wider obligations, then C will regard it as acceptable to one day spend the "college fund" money on some self-indulgent whim with the defence of "well, it was my own money, so I could do what I liked with it".
posted by Jabberwocky at 4:35 PM on May 16, 2012
Best answer: One line of refutation is to argue that there is a difference between the legal right that we have to do whatever we like with our own money and the set of socially-normed obligations that we owe to other people, such as our families - and to our future selves - in whether we choose to exercise those rights.
posted by Jabberwocky at 4:51 PM on May 16, 2012
posted by Jabberwocky at 4:51 PM on May 16, 2012
It sounds like C doesn't want to talk about this subject, so as far as that goes, I'd just avoid talking about it with C. After all, it really makes no difference whether C approves/disapproves/etc. of B's decision of what to do with their money, right?
As far as your relationship with B, I do think it's appropriate for friends (especially good friends) to let their friends know when they think they're making a huge mistake. But, you also have to accept that, at some point, C is correct: you cannot force B to do/not do anything with his or her money! I would suggest having a serious talk with B in which you say something to the effect of "Hey, I realize this is your decision what to do, but I would hate myself if I didn't say something and things go wrong, and I could have made a difference here. I honestly think you're making a mistake for reasons X, Y, Z, and I'm happy to talk more if you want. But, I will also totally respect it if you want this to be our last conversation on this topic." And hold yourself to it - don't bring it up again unless B does. I've had to do this with friends before, and it's tough, but you have to acknowledge/respect that your friends are adults and can make their own mistakes. Say your piece, and then let it go.
posted by rainbowbrite at 5:21 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
As far as your relationship with B, I do think it's appropriate for friends (especially good friends) to let their friends know when they think they're making a huge mistake. But, you also have to accept that, at some point, C is correct: you cannot force B to do/not do anything with his or her money! I would suggest having a serious talk with B in which you say something to the effect of "Hey, I realize this is your decision what to do, but I would hate myself if I didn't say something and things go wrong, and I could have made a difference here. I honestly think you're making a mistake for reasons X, Y, Z, and I'm happy to talk more if you want. But, I will also totally respect it if you want this to be our last conversation on this topic." And hold yourself to it - don't bring it up again unless B does. I've had to do this with friends before, and it's tough, but you have to acknowledge/respect that your friends are adults and can make their own mistakes. Say your piece, and then let it go.
posted by rainbowbrite at 5:21 PM on May 16, 2012 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Okay, I get the gist. I don't actually see B very often, so I don't anticipate the opportunity for a convo as outlined by rainbowbrite. I shall bite my tongue and MYOB.
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:51 PM on May 16, 2012
posted by BostonTerrier at 5:51 PM on May 16, 2012
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by punchtothehead at 2:47 PM on May 16, 2012 [14 favorites]