Do I own this stuff left in my basement?
February 8, 2012 4:43 AM Subscribe
I own a house and needed a new furnace. I found a guy to do it, and he totally screwed me over. He left all his tools in my basement and not had any contact with me for a couple months. Do I own these tools now, and what if anything should I do now?
My house had a 30+ year old furnace that needed replacing. I had gotten some estimates for repalcing it about 1 1/2 years ago. The lowest priced one was for about $2500. I couldn't afford this at the time so I didn't replace the furnace, and started to save up to replace it.
Fast foward a year, and now I have the $2500 to replace the furnace. Before I get estimates from any HVAC companies, I find out a guy who is an "independent contractor" for the company I am an employee of is a liscensed HVAC installer (the company I work for has nothing in the slighest to do with HVAC). I don't know this guy very well but he had been working for my employeer for a couple years, and he seemed like an alright person and as far as I knew reliable.
I have the guy come over and give me an estimate and it's a $1000 less then the estimates I had gotten a year ago for a high efficency furnace and some ductwork that had to be replaced. The guy assured me that he was licensed and insured, and would pull a building permit. I thought awesome cause I'm generally poor and could really use that other $1000 towards other repairs on my money pit house.
I asked the guy were when he could start and he said in a couple days. Great! Let's do this! He says he will drop off a bid where we work that night for me to sign and that he will need half the money upfront to get the furnace and sheet metal and supplies. He brings the bid in to work. It's basically just a pre-printed carbon-copy generic buisness form with "$1500 replace furnace and ductwork" his signature and the date.
(Now I realize I really, really dropped the ball, should have asked for references, proof of insurance, license, gotten a properly written contract etc. I was naive, and this was the first major thing I would have had profesionally repaired on my house. Trust me lesson learned!)
I sign the paper and he says he'll be by in a two days to get the money. He shows up gets the $750, and says he'll be back the next day to rip out the old furnace and do the work. He shows up the next day with another guy and spends a few hours ripping out the old furnace then says he is going to go get the new furnace and he'll be back in a little while.
This is when the extreme flakiness of this guy starts. Get a call saying that he fucked up the bid and that the price he gave me was for a low efficiancy furnace and it would be a few hundred more for the high efficency one. I say just get the low efficency one. Then he says it on backorder and should be in tomorrow, so he'll be back the next day.
Then every day for about the next two weeks, the guy blows me of somehow. Furnace still not in, he's stranded in another town, kid is in hospital, basically every thing in the book. He finally gets the furnace about two weeks after he ripped out my old one and actually brings it over to my house. But he still doesnt actually start installing it, says he'll be back in a couple days to do this.
A couple more weeks of flakiness and blowing me off. This time one of the excuses included being in jail on an outsanding child support warrent (or so his mother told me)
He eventually comes back to hook up the gas line and the thermostat to the furnace, but still doesnt install the duct work connecting the furnace to the existing ductwork in the house. Of course, he says he'll be back in the morning with the duct work.
Over the ensuing weeks there are more excuses, asked for more of the money to buy the sheetmetal, (which I very, very stupidly gave him.) More lame excuses. Eventually fall sets in and it starts to get cold and i need a working furnace, ASAP. Guy comes over and duct tapes a bunch of cardboard over the gap between the furnace and the old exsting duct work so I can at least run the furnace and get some heat from flowing through my house. Guy promises me he'll be back to finsh the job the next day.
Well that was back in October, and the guy hasnt been back to my house since that day. I would still run into this guy at my job and he would say every week that he would be coming over to finish it. and then every time he would no call/no show. He did this for weeks. It had sort of become a running joke around the office.
Finally at the begining of January the guy had his contract terminated by my employer (of course this was for owing them several hundred dollars and making no attempt to pay them back. I haven"t seen or heard from this guy since. He's phone goes straight to voicemail. I never bothered to leave him a message, but I now he has caller id, and I doubt he'd return my calls anyways.
I eventually had another friend from work come over and help me do the sheet metal connecting the funace to the older duct work. This was while the guy still worked for my company that needed replacing that the guy was supposed to do.
I figure they money is gone. I checked the guys record (which, boy I wish I would have done right off the bat) he has a bunch of money judgements against him all ready. So I guess I could take him to small claims court, but with our shakey written agreement, would I even win? And even if I did, he wouldnt be able to pay me anyways so I'd be out the filing fees. So I'm not even that pissed anymore about that.
TL;DR: This guy left all his tools in my basement. Like two little dufflebags full of cordless drills, some spotlights, metal bending and cutting tools, various other things you would expect to find in a tool bag. I all ready have my own tools, except some of the sheetmetal tools. Do I own these now? I was thinking about selling them on craigslist or taking them to a pawn shop. Will I/Could I get in trouble for this? Is there any reason i should take him to small claims court anyways? Also this guy never pulled a permit, how worried about that should I be? Is there a way to fix that?
My house had a 30+ year old furnace that needed replacing. I had gotten some estimates for repalcing it about 1 1/2 years ago. The lowest priced one was for about $2500. I couldn't afford this at the time so I didn't replace the furnace, and started to save up to replace it.
Fast foward a year, and now I have the $2500 to replace the furnace. Before I get estimates from any HVAC companies, I find out a guy who is an "independent contractor" for the company I am an employee of is a liscensed HVAC installer (the company I work for has nothing in the slighest to do with HVAC). I don't know this guy very well but he had been working for my employeer for a couple years, and he seemed like an alright person and as far as I knew reliable.
I have the guy come over and give me an estimate and it's a $1000 less then the estimates I had gotten a year ago for a high efficency furnace and some ductwork that had to be replaced. The guy assured me that he was licensed and insured, and would pull a building permit. I thought awesome cause I'm generally poor and could really use that other $1000 towards other repairs on my money pit house.
I asked the guy were when he could start and he said in a couple days. Great! Let's do this! He says he will drop off a bid where we work that night for me to sign and that he will need half the money upfront to get the furnace and sheet metal and supplies. He brings the bid in to work. It's basically just a pre-printed carbon-copy generic buisness form with "$1500 replace furnace and ductwork" his signature and the date.
(Now I realize I really, really dropped the ball, should have asked for references, proof of insurance, license, gotten a properly written contract etc. I was naive, and this was the first major thing I would have had profesionally repaired on my house. Trust me lesson learned!)
I sign the paper and he says he'll be by in a two days to get the money. He shows up gets the $750, and says he'll be back the next day to rip out the old furnace and do the work. He shows up the next day with another guy and spends a few hours ripping out the old furnace then says he is going to go get the new furnace and he'll be back in a little while.
This is when the extreme flakiness of this guy starts. Get a call saying that he fucked up the bid and that the price he gave me was for a low efficiancy furnace and it would be a few hundred more for the high efficency one. I say just get the low efficency one. Then he says it on backorder and should be in tomorrow, so he'll be back the next day.
Then every day for about the next two weeks, the guy blows me of somehow. Furnace still not in, he's stranded in another town, kid is in hospital, basically every thing in the book. He finally gets the furnace about two weeks after he ripped out my old one and actually brings it over to my house. But he still doesnt actually start installing it, says he'll be back in a couple days to do this.
A couple more weeks of flakiness and blowing me off. This time one of the excuses included being in jail on an outsanding child support warrent (or so his mother told me)
He eventually comes back to hook up the gas line and the thermostat to the furnace, but still doesnt install the duct work connecting the furnace to the existing ductwork in the house. Of course, he says he'll be back in the morning with the duct work.
Over the ensuing weeks there are more excuses, asked for more of the money to buy the sheetmetal, (which I very, very stupidly gave him.) More lame excuses. Eventually fall sets in and it starts to get cold and i need a working furnace, ASAP. Guy comes over and duct tapes a bunch of cardboard over the gap between the furnace and the old exsting duct work so I can at least run the furnace and get some heat from flowing through my house. Guy promises me he'll be back to finsh the job the next day.
Well that was back in October, and the guy hasnt been back to my house since that day. I would still run into this guy at my job and he would say every week that he would be coming over to finish it. and then every time he would no call/no show. He did this for weeks. It had sort of become a running joke around the office.
Finally at the begining of January the guy had his contract terminated by my employer (of course this was for owing them several hundred dollars and making no attempt to pay them back. I haven"t seen or heard from this guy since. He's phone goes straight to voicemail. I never bothered to leave him a message, but I now he has caller id, and I doubt he'd return my calls anyways.
I eventually had another friend from work come over and help me do the sheet metal connecting the funace to the older duct work. This was while the guy still worked for my company that needed replacing that the guy was supposed to do.
I figure they money is gone. I checked the guys record (which, boy I wish I would have done right off the bat) he has a bunch of money judgements against him all ready. So I guess I could take him to small claims court, but with our shakey written agreement, would I even win? And even if I did, he wouldnt be able to pay me anyways so I'd be out the filing fees. So I'm not even that pissed anymore about that.
TL;DR: This guy left all his tools in my basement. Like two little dufflebags full of cordless drills, some spotlights, metal bending and cutting tools, various other things you would expect to find in a tool bag. I all ready have my own tools, except some of the sheetmetal tools. Do I own these now? I was thinking about selling them on craigslist or taking them to a pawn shop. Will I/Could I get in trouble for this? Is there any reason i should take him to small claims court anyways? Also this guy never pulled a permit, how worried about that should I be? Is there a way to fix that?
Unfortunately this is somewhat par for the course for freelance home improvement contractors.
I don't think you should sell his tools (yet). You need to try to get the work finished or your money back, and selling the tools arguably puts you somewhat in the wrong (it really doesn't, but you don't want to do anything that a third party arbiter could hold against you).
I would suggest BOTH calling the police to report fraud and, if that doesn't work, suing him in small claims court.
posted by jayder at 4:59 AM on February 8, 2012
I don't think you should sell his tools (yet). You need to try to get the work finished or your money back, and selling the tools arguably puts you somewhat in the wrong (it really doesn't, but you don't want to do anything that a third party arbiter could hold against you).
I would suggest BOTH calling the police to report fraud and, if that doesn't work, suing him in small claims court.
posted by jayder at 4:59 AM on February 8, 2012
I doubt he is ever coming back for these tools. My guess is they are crappy tools anyway.
Does the guy have any record that the left these tools at your house? How could he prove where he left his tools?
Get all your paper-work together against him - so, if anyone official comes knocking, you have no idea what happened to his tools, and you can make a coherent, documented case against him regarding the money he owes you.
As to the permit, in most jurisdictions, it is the contractor that gets in trouble for unpermitted work - not the home-owner. You could go down to the building dept, and ask for inspection of the work. They will be happy to do it - but keep in mind, they might require you to re-do everything at a your cost.
posted by Flood at 5:01 AM on February 8, 2012
Does the guy have any record that the left these tools at your house? How could he prove where he left his tools?
Get all your paper-work together against him - so, if anyone official comes knocking, you have no idea what happened to his tools, and you can make a coherent, documented case against him regarding the money he owes you.
As to the permit, in most jurisdictions, it is the contractor that gets in trouble for unpermitted work - not the home-owner. You could go down to the building dept, and ask for inspection of the work. They will be happy to do it - but keep in mind, they might require you to re-do everything at a your cost.
posted by Flood at 5:01 AM on February 8, 2012
1- Always leave a message. Even though you are right that he probably won't return the call, at least you can say you did everything.
2- Leaving one's tools somewhere is a bad sign. In my experience, that means one of two things: one, he got a job where he doesn't need them. Or two, he's locked up.
3- It sounds like you aren't too far out of the money on this job. It sounds like it cost you about $2000? That's not bad. I wouldn't worry about the money.
4- See if your state has laws about abandoned property like that. If there is a law, double the time limit, and then sell the stuff. If the dude comes back looking for his tools, you can say "hey guy, the law says I have to wait 6 months and I waited a year. I sold the stuff and paid another contractor to come and finish the job. I got $400 for the tools and the other guy cost $300. Here is the $100 difference." That's nicer than you have to be, but IMHO, it will seem like you are trying to do the right thing and not trying to screw him.
posted by gjc at 5:04 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
2- Leaving one's tools somewhere is a bad sign. In my experience, that means one of two things: one, he got a job where he doesn't need them. Or two, he's locked up.
3- It sounds like you aren't too far out of the money on this job. It sounds like it cost you about $2000? That's not bad. I wouldn't worry about the money.
4- See if your state has laws about abandoned property like that. If there is a law, double the time limit, and then sell the stuff. If the dude comes back looking for his tools, you can say "hey guy, the law says I have to wait 6 months and I waited a year. I sold the stuff and paid another contractor to come and finish the job. I got $400 for the tools and the other guy cost $300. Here is the $100 difference." That's nicer than you have to be, but IMHO, it will seem like you are trying to do the right thing and not trying to screw him.
posted by gjc at 5:04 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
It sounds like it's time to bring in a lawyer. You won't necessarily need to worry about paying him either: this is the sort of thing a lot of solo practitioners and small firms will take on contingency, i.e. they take a third of whatever you win, but nothing if you lose.
If nothing else, he'll be able to properly advise you on your rights with respect to the tools.
posted by valkyryn at 5:59 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
If nothing else, he'll be able to properly advise you on your rights with respect to the tools.
posted by valkyryn at 5:59 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
The guy is a complete flake and he'll never be back. I wonder if he even remembers that his tools are at your place. Fuck it, sell 'em... tools? you never saw any tools! What's he going to do, sue you?
posted by Meatbomb at 6:11 AM on February 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 6:11 AM on February 8, 2012 [4 favorites]
Keep the tools, say nothing and move on.
posted by Frasermoo at 6:17 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Frasermoo at 6:17 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
From your description it sounds like you paid $750 for a new furnace which is installed and working plus a little for sheet metal. Am I missing something or is this a bargain? You can probably get a more above board contractor to come in and fix your duct work and still come out ahead.
posted by rocketpup at 6:23 AM on February 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by rocketpup at 6:23 AM on February 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
At the very least, not pulling a permit means the installation hasn't been inspected. There's a chance something was done wrong, and you don't know enough to recognize it. It could also become an issue when you sell the house, or if the place burns down and your insurer starts investigating. These are all fairly unlikely, but the safe thing to do would be to go to the code enforcement office and explain your story to the nice person there. Say that you want to set things right, get this all above board with the municipality, and ask what you need to do. My guess is that they'll charge you for a permit and schedule an appointment for the inspector to drop by and look at the situation, after which he'll either tell you to fix some problem(s) with the installation or he'll say it's fine and sign off on it.
For the tools, I'd call the police and ask what the deal is with abandoned personal property, and dispose of them accordingly.
Forget court. You've got nothing to gain there.
posted by jon1270 at 6:38 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
For the tools, I'd call the police and ask what the deal is with abandoned personal property, and dispose of them accordingly.
Forget court. You've got nothing to gain there.
posted by jon1270 at 6:38 AM on February 8, 2012 [1 favorite]
Also this guy never pulled a permit, how worried about that should I be? Is there a way to fix that?
If you expect to sell this house at any point in the future, you need to show that anything requiring a permit has a permit. (Some sellers refuse to disclose permits, but that really, really, really doesn't look good.) At least in my jurisdiction, the responsibility for pulling necessary permits ultimately belongs to the property owner; if the contractor didn't bother, then the owner is still on the hook. So I would check. At the very least, get the inspector out to see if everything was actually done properly, because gas furnace + errors = hoo boy. You may have to spend money to fix things, but then again, you may also avoid having Bad Things Happen.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:41 AM on February 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
If you expect to sell this house at any point in the future, you need to show that anything requiring a permit has a permit. (Some sellers refuse to disclose permits, but that really, really, really doesn't look good.) At least in my jurisdiction, the responsibility for pulling necessary permits ultimately belongs to the property owner; if the contractor didn't bother, then the owner is still on the hook. So I would check. At the very least, get the inspector out to see if everything was actually done properly, because gas furnace + errors = hoo boy. You may have to spend money to fix things, but then again, you may also avoid having Bad Things Happen.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:41 AM on February 8, 2012 [2 favorites]
IANYL, but what are you hoping to accomplish with a small claims court action? Get your money back? You have a new furnace for it. Get him to fulfil the original contract? The guy's a flake you don't trust.
From your description it sounds like you paid $750 for a new furnace which is installed and working plus a little for sheet metal.
Unless I'm missing something, that's what it sounds like to me, too. How are you not ahead at this point?
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:11 AM on February 8, 2012
From your description it sounds like you paid $750 for a new furnace which is installed and working plus a little for sheet metal.
Unless I'm missing something, that's what it sounds like to me, too. How are you not ahead at this point?
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:11 AM on February 8, 2012
If you sell the tools on craigslist I would recommend not using your name or phone numer (grab a pay as you go cheap mobile or use a friends number as contact), don't use photos and use just a generic description. I agree the tools are probably worth almost nothing though. It sucks that it took so long and caused you a lot of grief but at least he didn't scam you for even more. he sounds like he has a lot of problems, be grateful you are better off than him and he is out of your life and get rid of the tools. Since you have his mother's contact number why don't you ask if you can drop them off to her?
posted by saucysault at 7:30 AM on February 8, 2012
posted by saucysault at 7:30 AM on February 8, 2012
Please, please, please get your furnace installation inspected and permitted. Carbon monoxide poisoning isn't something you want to take chances with.
posted by i feel possessed at 7:37 AM on February 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by i feel possessed at 7:37 AM on February 8, 2012 [7 favorites]
Twenty-leven times what i feel possessed just said: please get that installation inspected and permitted!
posted by easily confused at 8:36 AM on February 8, 2012
posted by easily confused at 8:36 AM on February 8, 2012
Please, please, please get your furnace installation inspected and permitted. Carbon monoxide poisoning isn't something you want to take chances with.
Just repeating that for emphasis and out of not wanting you to not wake up one morning. :(
But after you do that, you know what I think you should do? Call the number you have for the guy and leave a message saying, "Hey, Joe, no hard feelings about the furnace but there's some tools of yours at my house. I'd like to get them back to you, so you can either pick them up at [time that works for you, Black Walnut] or I can swing by your place and drop them off at [other time that works for you. Let me know." Probably the guy won't call you back, but maybe he will.
If you keep the tools, or sell them and get money for them, this negative interaction is still in your life. It will remain in your life each time you use the tools or when you spend the money on some other permenant repair. It will hang around and nag at you. On the other hand, if you try to return the tools, you will have done everything in your power to resolve the interaction, and you will have gotten a physical reminder of Stupid Crap (the contract, the not checking the license, the money, the months without heat, the months with cardboard on your ducts, the flakiness, the "my kid's sick my car broke down I got sued I'm in prison," everything) out of your life. You have too much to do to have Stupid Crap sitting in your basement, glaring at you. Why would you want to keep all that negativity in your house? Get rid of it and add some good karma to your account in the process.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:33 PM on February 8, 2012 [8 favorites]
Just repeating that for emphasis and out of not wanting you to not wake up one morning. :(
But after you do that, you know what I think you should do? Call the number you have for the guy and leave a message saying, "Hey, Joe, no hard feelings about the furnace but there's some tools of yours at my house. I'd like to get them back to you, so you can either pick them up at [time that works for you, Black Walnut] or I can swing by your place and drop them off at [other time that works for you. Let me know." Probably the guy won't call you back, but maybe he will.
If you keep the tools, or sell them and get money for them, this negative interaction is still in your life. It will remain in your life each time you use the tools or when you spend the money on some other permenant repair. It will hang around and nag at you. On the other hand, if you try to return the tools, you will have done everything in your power to resolve the interaction, and you will have gotten a physical reminder of Stupid Crap (the contract, the not checking the license, the money, the months without heat, the months with cardboard on your ducts, the flakiness, the "my kid's sick my car broke down I got sued I'm in prison," everything) out of your life. You have too much to do to have Stupid Crap sitting in your basement, glaring at you. Why would you want to keep all that negativity in your house? Get rid of it and add some good karma to your account in the process.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 1:33 PM on February 8, 2012 [8 favorites]
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posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 4:56 AM on February 8, 2012