How can an INTP manage to communicate with his ENFx partner ?
December 6, 2011 4:29 PM Subscribe
ENFx-INTP ralationship. Who has the user manual ? This somewhat long post is a call for help !
Fellow Mefi users and contributors,
I have been in a (in my opinion) serious though long distance relationship with a delightful young girl I am hopelessly in love with for nearly two years. This relationship is all the more important to me that in order to end up together, we both broke up with our former companions. It so happens that her boyfriend back then was my best friend, he and I never spoke ever since and openly avoid each other to this day. This relationship therefore came at a high cost for people around us, something I am not terribly proud of. The only thing which in my opinion could morally justify such otherwise despicable actions is to try as hard as I can to make this relationship work, and I am determined to do so.
Some background info may be useful in order to grasp the issues we are dealing with. I, typical INTP, have had a somewhat exaggerated reputation as a libertine who likes women, parties, and have been cheating on a former girlfriend. This reputation comes from my days at the university, and I have since grown out of that. My girlfriend, ENFx, is aware of all this past. She comes from a very Christian family, and although she got out of the church a few years ago she still has an ambiguous relationship to religion. She was –or at least claims to have been- victim of recurrent sexual abuse, has a somewhat low self esteem to my regret, and trust issues. She was a wreck when I met her, but being in her fourth year of therapy, I’m happy to say things are getting much better on the self esteem side. She still has problems accepting criticism however, being almost physically hurt by it.
As you might have expected from our personality types, I feel we have communication problems I can’t quite sort out, and I need advice. Because it is difficult to describe such issues in general terms, I’ll try to illustrate with a couple of examples.
Earlier this year, I was abroad for work for a month. It was a challenging time, my colleagues back home were counting on me and I had to focus. That’s the moment she chose for one of our typical fights. We had been invited for the next summer to a family celebration thrown by a friend of hers. She told me her friends family was rather Christian, that she was not feeling comfortable with being in a casual relationship, feared that they would think less of her because of that, until I realized she was asking me not to come. I was a bit surprised, sad to be deemed not good enough, and let her know. She got angry, accused me of having no moral values, no spiritual life and being driven only by hedonism, and threatened to break up. I felt it was unfair, since I do care about spirituality, but I see it as a mostly personal thing. My approach to spirituality, like most other things, tries to be rather intellectual, while she seems to be more into the community, Sunday hobby type of thing. Let’s be clear, her approach is entirely fine if she likes it, but it’s not mine, and I don’t want to be dragged into a cult by emotional blackmail, which I tried my best to explain with limited success. We did not talk for a few days, during which I was pretty despaired, although I needed my head clear for work. I felt I was treated unfairly, almost arbitrarily, with little chance to explain where I stood. When I tried to talk about that after I came back home, I was shocked to discover she no longer cared about the event or the hedonism issue, as if it had never happened. I was still hurt, but felt unable to express it in a way she would care about, and dropped the topic.
A second example, related to the first, occurred a couple of months later as she was visiting me for a week. As I went to work, she snooped into my computer, checking out browser, google chat and Skype history. I knew she had this bad habit because it got us into trouble in the past, but my policy regarding whatever I do on the web is not to hide it. I never openly mention the embarrassing and silly things I do on the web, but I feel I have to stand up for it when needed, however invasive the inquiry and however awkward talking about it can be. After a fairly exhaustive check up, she stumbled upon a conversation I have had with a friend, back when I was abroad. Because I was feeling so bad at the time, and needed to get things out of my system, I told him about our fight over my supposed hedonism in search for comforting words, and at some point he jokingly said I should slap her in the face. Needless to say I would never hurt my darling girl, and he did not mean that anyway. Nevertheless, she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening, the simple fact of talking about slapping her apparently being almost as bad as doing it, and mentioned it would be a good reason for breaking up. I was shocked and left speechless by the fact that she chose to start a fight over such futile matter, as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into, and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret. To this day, I do not know whether she genuinely felt threatened or she somehow felt forced to attack to draw my attention away from the fact that she snooped, a fairly silly thing to do for someone who advocates the importance of trust in relationships.
These examples have in common that in both cases, I felt unable to defend myself against unreasonable claims, or express just how bad her behaviour made me feel. Also, in both cases, I felt she was acting based on whatever she felt was true, regardless of how arbitrary and divorced from reality that could be. And most importantly, my impression was that she was impossible to reach, almost like locked up into some sort of protective bubble, not caring a bit about what I had to say.
The way I usually try to solve these things is fairly unimaginative I guess. First I try to express how I feel, and point out some observable facts that challenge her opinion. It never seems to do any good. Then I switch to constructive criticism, pointing out the weaknesses of her judgments, and saying I’d accept her criticism if she would hear mine in return. The typical reaction is that we are too different anyway, and that we’d better break up sometime soon. If I get angry and demand to be treated fairly, she shuts down entirely, becomes totally unreachable, and just keeps repeating I should resort to non violent communication, which brings us back to the first step and resets the whole useless process. Usually, a couple of days later, she forgets about the whole thing and turns back into the loving, wonderful girlfriend I’m so fond of.
Over the last few weeks, such incidents have been increasingly frequent, and I am still unable to sort it out. It hurts quite a lot and grows really, really frustrating.
So, to conclude this long post, although I am investing a lot of my soul in our story, I am starting to feel like she does not really give me much consideration and reciprocity. I do not feel like my heart matters much to her, and I do not know if she is genuinely blind to my feelings of if she doesn’t care. Our relationship seems to be run by the mood she’s in when we interact, and I do not think she sees the big picture I do when thinking about us. Because I know about her trust and self esteem issues, I try to be as patient, tolerant, and understanding as I can, but on the other hand this attitude implies that I often have to disregard my own needs to satisfy hers, which is slowly exhausting me. I am frustrated that she does not see that, and can’t think of a way to express it without stirring up the usual “let’s break up” reaction. I am wondering if I am being used, and whether I did not make a huge mistake getting into this relationship to begin with. However, losing her, after losing my former girlfriend and my best friend, in other words some of the most meaningful relationships I’ve ever had, would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable.
Any suggestion on how to improve my communication? I am just hopelessly bad at communicating my feelings? Are we doomed to break up at some point?
Thank you for your comments, it would be a huge help right now…
Fellow Mefi users and contributors,
I have been in a (in my opinion) serious though long distance relationship with a delightful young girl I am hopelessly in love with for nearly two years. This relationship is all the more important to me that in order to end up together, we both broke up with our former companions. It so happens that her boyfriend back then was my best friend, he and I never spoke ever since and openly avoid each other to this day. This relationship therefore came at a high cost for people around us, something I am not terribly proud of. The only thing which in my opinion could morally justify such otherwise despicable actions is to try as hard as I can to make this relationship work, and I am determined to do so.
Some background info may be useful in order to grasp the issues we are dealing with. I, typical INTP, have had a somewhat exaggerated reputation as a libertine who likes women, parties, and have been cheating on a former girlfriend. This reputation comes from my days at the university, and I have since grown out of that. My girlfriend, ENFx, is aware of all this past. She comes from a very Christian family, and although she got out of the church a few years ago she still has an ambiguous relationship to religion. She was –or at least claims to have been- victim of recurrent sexual abuse, has a somewhat low self esteem to my regret, and trust issues. She was a wreck when I met her, but being in her fourth year of therapy, I’m happy to say things are getting much better on the self esteem side. She still has problems accepting criticism however, being almost physically hurt by it.
As you might have expected from our personality types, I feel we have communication problems I can’t quite sort out, and I need advice. Because it is difficult to describe such issues in general terms, I’ll try to illustrate with a couple of examples.
Earlier this year, I was abroad for work for a month. It was a challenging time, my colleagues back home were counting on me and I had to focus. That’s the moment she chose for one of our typical fights. We had been invited for the next summer to a family celebration thrown by a friend of hers. She told me her friends family was rather Christian, that she was not feeling comfortable with being in a casual relationship, feared that they would think less of her because of that, until I realized she was asking me not to come. I was a bit surprised, sad to be deemed not good enough, and let her know. She got angry, accused me of having no moral values, no spiritual life and being driven only by hedonism, and threatened to break up. I felt it was unfair, since I do care about spirituality, but I see it as a mostly personal thing. My approach to spirituality, like most other things, tries to be rather intellectual, while she seems to be more into the community, Sunday hobby type of thing. Let’s be clear, her approach is entirely fine if she likes it, but it’s not mine, and I don’t want to be dragged into a cult by emotional blackmail, which I tried my best to explain with limited success. We did not talk for a few days, during which I was pretty despaired, although I needed my head clear for work. I felt I was treated unfairly, almost arbitrarily, with little chance to explain where I stood. When I tried to talk about that after I came back home, I was shocked to discover she no longer cared about the event or the hedonism issue, as if it had never happened. I was still hurt, but felt unable to express it in a way she would care about, and dropped the topic.
A second example, related to the first, occurred a couple of months later as she was visiting me for a week. As I went to work, she snooped into my computer, checking out browser, google chat and Skype history. I knew she had this bad habit because it got us into trouble in the past, but my policy regarding whatever I do on the web is not to hide it. I never openly mention the embarrassing and silly things I do on the web, but I feel I have to stand up for it when needed, however invasive the inquiry and however awkward talking about it can be. After a fairly exhaustive check up, she stumbled upon a conversation I have had with a friend, back when I was abroad. Because I was feeling so bad at the time, and needed to get things out of my system, I told him about our fight over my supposed hedonism in search for comforting words, and at some point he jokingly said I should slap her in the face. Needless to say I would never hurt my darling girl, and he did not mean that anyway. Nevertheless, she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening, the simple fact of talking about slapping her apparently being almost as bad as doing it, and mentioned it would be a good reason for breaking up. I was shocked and left speechless by the fact that she chose to start a fight over such futile matter, as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into, and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret. To this day, I do not know whether she genuinely felt threatened or she somehow felt forced to attack to draw my attention away from the fact that she snooped, a fairly silly thing to do for someone who advocates the importance of trust in relationships.
These examples have in common that in both cases, I felt unable to defend myself against unreasonable claims, or express just how bad her behaviour made me feel. Also, in both cases, I felt she was acting based on whatever she felt was true, regardless of how arbitrary and divorced from reality that could be. And most importantly, my impression was that she was impossible to reach, almost like locked up into some sort of protective bubble, not caring a bit about what I had to say.
The way I usually try to solve these things is fairly unimaginative I guess. First I try to express how I feel, and point out some observable facts that challenge her opinion. It never seems to do any good. Then I switch to constructive criticism, pointing out the weaknesses of her judgments, and saying I’d accept her criticism if she would hear mine in return. The typical reaction is that we are too different anyway, and that we’d better break up sometime soon. If I get angry and demand to be treated fairly, she shuts down entirely, becomes totally unreachable, and just keeps repeating I should resort to non violent communication, which brings us back to the first step and resets the whole useless process. Usually, a couple of days later, she forgets about the whole thing and turns back into the loving, wonderful girlfriend I’m so fond of.
Over the last few weeks, such incidents have been increasingly frequent, and I am still unable to sort it out. It hurts quite a lot and grows really, really frustrating.
So, to conclude this long post, although I am investing a lot of my soul in our story, I am starting to feel like she does not really give me much consideration and reciprocity. I do not feel like my heart matters much to her, and I do not know if she is genuinely blind to my feelings of if she doesn’t care. Our relationship seems to be run by the mood she’s in when we interact, and I do not think she sees the big picture I do when thinking about us. Because I know about her trust and self esteem issues, I try to be as patient, tolerant, and understanding as I can, but on the other hand this attitude implies that I often have to disregard my own needs to satisfy hers, which is slowly exhausting me. I am frustrated that she does not see that, and can’t think of a way to express it without stirring up the usual “let’s break up” reaction. I am wondering if I am being used, and whether I did not make a huge mistake getting into this relationship to begin with. However, losing her, after losing my former girlfriend and my best friend, in other words some of the most meaningful relationships I’ve ever had, would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable.
Any suggestion on how to improve my communication? I am just hopelessly bad at communicating my feelings? Are we doomed to break up at some point?
Thank you for your comments, it would be a huge help right now…
She got angry, accused me of having no moral values, no spiritual life and being driven only by hedonism, and threatened to break up.
I don’t want to be dragged into a cult by emotional blackmail, which I tried my best to explain with limited success.
I was shocked and left speechless by the fact that she chose to start a fight over such futile matter, as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into, and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret.
I don't think you guys respect each other very much. Or at all, really. She thinks you're a moral vacuum devoid of responsibility who is constantly on the verge of violent abuse, and you think she's a calculating manipulator acting out of cruelty and spite, stringing you along for her own selfish and perverse amusement. I don't think MBTI stuff has much to do with it. You just both think the other person is a first-class asshole. So, yeah, breaking up sounds like a pretty good idea.
posted by Errant at 4:49 PM on December 6, 2011 [18 favorites]
I don’t want to be dragged into a cult by emotional blackmail, which I tried my best to explain with limited success.
I was shocked and left speechless by the fact that she chose to start a fight over such futile matter, as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into, and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret.
I don't think you guys respect each other very much. Or at all, really. She thinks you're a moral vacuum devoid of responsibility who is constantly on the verge of violent abuse, and you think she's a calculating manipulator acting out of cruelty and spite, stringing you along for her own selfish and perverse amusement. I don't think MBTI stuff has much to do with it. You just both think the other person is a first-class asshole. So, yeah, breaking up sounds like a pretty good idea.
posted by Errant at 4:49 PM on December 6, 2011 [18 favorites]
First I must add a disclaimer. I did not write this, but I cant seem to find find the source that I got this from (if anyone knows, please chime in, I am in no way attempting to steal another's work).
Honestly though, this info changed my life:
There are two styles of communication, Emotional talking style and Logical talking style.
Emotional talking style:
People with the Emotional talking style use words to express their own feelings and what they feel from another person. This talking style use a stream of consciousness to express and release emotional states. Feelings guide this talking style. While these people may be logical in their mental processes to do a job or to function in the world, their Emotional talking style will determine how they connect with another person in a close relationship.
Logical talking style:
People with Logical talking style use words according to their dictionary definitions. They lay the words out like they are building a brick wall. They ask many questions to make sure they understand so there are no holes in the wall. They don't like loose ends or assumptions. The background or circumstances of a situation can be as important as the event itself to the logical talking style person. They are natural born problem solvers and often have good mechanical skills. The logical talking style relates only to how a person uses words to communicate. These people may have an emotional or sensitive nature but that is a different consideration from their talking style.
Different styles of communication can cause people to have misunderstandings and an overriding irritation with each other:
They have an issue with questions: The person with a Logical Communication Style often stops the person with an Emotional Communication Style to clarify what's been said. The questions are reasonable in the Logical Communication Style. However, the questions break the stream of consciousness that's characteristic of the Emotional Communication Style, which follows feelings, not reason. In the Emotional Communication Style, a person just wants the opportunity to express emotion without interruption. Yet the person with a Logical Style wants it to make sense. Result: frustration and conflict.
They can struggle for power in the relationship: The person with a Logical Communication Style often seems authoritative to someone with an Emotional Communication Style. People with an Emotional Communication Style can feel put down by the Logical Communication Style and may respond by being insulting, perceiving that they are responding in kind. In a long-term relationship between people with mismatched Communication Styles, you can hear strain or urgency in the voice of the person with an Emotional Communication Style as he or she is constantly on the defensive, trying to maintain some sense of equality. Result: stress and conflict.
Hints and assumptions obscure real needs: People with an Emotional Communication Style often drop hints about what they desire. They do not think it's necessary to be more specific because they're able to pick up on the nuances of what other people say, and they assume everyone can. Yet people with the Logical Communication Style need you to say what you mean. They don't want guesswork; they want directness and clarity. Result: ambiguity and conflict.
There are differences in the time needed for decision making: People with an Emotional Communication Style take time making decisions. They need to figure out how they feel, and this isn't always cut and dried, so they do not like to be rushed through the process. That can come across to the Logical Communication Style person as being dimwitted or indecisive: "Can't you just look at the facts and decide? How complicated could that be?" Result: condescension and conflict.
People with a Logical Communication Style can be "in their heads.": People with an Emotional Communication Style see the Logical Communication Style as being hyper-intellectual, out of touch with feelings. "All those people do is think, think and think some more." Someone with an Emotional Communication Style wants you to feel what's behind the words, which is the most important part of the communication. Someone with a Logical Communication Style takes the words at face value, analyzing the meaning of each one and deriving a total meaning from the sum of those parts. For instance, one person says, "I hate you," meaning, in the Emotional Communication Style, "My feelings about this are so big that I need to express myself forcefully." Once said, that releases the emotion, and it's over. However, in the Logical Communication Style, this means it's time to starts packing the bags. Hate = no love = the relationship is over. Result: miscommunication and conflict.
How to Appreciate Your Emotional Talking Style Partner
People with a logical talking style converse systematically. You use words according to their dictionary definition (or their understanding) and lay them out like bricks in a wall. When there is something you don't understand, it creates a hole that is filled by asking a question so you can move forward. Consider the following actions to appreciate, honor and acknowledge your Emotional Talking Style partner:
Create an agreement at the beginning of the conversation about when you will ask questions. You will be better able to stay with the conversation without interrupting if you can trust that all the details will eventually be supplied. The person with the Emotional Style will also feel that he or she is now "being heard" instead of analyzed.
How to Appreciate Your Logical Talking Style Partner
If you have an Emotional Talking Style you tend to talk in a stream of consciousness. You assume others know what you know. Consider the following actions to appreciate, honor and acknowledge your Logical Talking Style partner:
Do your best to become aware of when you're assuming something. You can also ask the person with the Logical Style to point it out. Understand that when people with the Logical Communication Style ask you questions, they are confused because of the many alternatives they see. They aren't able to interpret what you are saying. Be aware that it is a major irritation to someone with a Logical Communication Style to have to ask questions to confirm their understanding. Remember each of you uses words differently.
posted by Shouraku at 4:52 PM on December 6, 2011 [35 favorites]
Honestly though, this info changed my life:
There are two styles of communication, Emotional talking style and Logical talking style.
Emotional talking style:
People with the Emotional talking style use words to express their own feelings and what they feel from another person. This talking style use a stream of consciousness to express and release emotional states. Feelings guide this talking style. While these people may be logical in their mental processes to do a job or to function in the world, their Emotional talking style will determine how they connect with another person in a close relationship.
Logical talking style:
People with Logical talking style use words according to their dictionary definitions. They lay the words out like they are building a brick wall. They ask many questions to make sure they understand so there are no holes in the wall. They don't like loose ends or assumptions. The background or circumstances of a situation can be as important as the event itself to the logical talking style person. They are natural born problem solvers and often have good mechanical skills. The logical talking style relates only to how a person uses words to communicate. These people may have an emotional or sensitive nature but that is a different consideration from their talking style.
Different styles of communication can cause people to have misunderstandings and an overriding irritation with each other:
They have an issue with questions: The person with a Logical Communication Style often stops the person with an Emotional Communication Style to clarify what's been said. The questions are reasonable in the Logical Communication Style. However, the questions break the stream of consciousness that's characteristic of the Emotional Communication Style, which follows feelings, not reason. In the Emotional Communication Style, a person just wants the opportunity to express emotion without interruption. Yet the person with a Logical Style wants it to make sense. Result: frustration and conflict.
They can struggle for power in the relationship: The person with a Logical Communication Style often seems authoritative to someone with an Emotional Communication Style. People with an Emotional Communication Style can feel put down by the Logical Communication Style and may respond by being insulting, perceiving that they are responding in kind. In a long-term relationship between people with mismatched Communication Styles, you can hear strain or urgency in the voice of the person with an Emotional Communication Style as he or she is constantly on the defensive, trying to maintain some sense of equality. Result: stress and conflict.
Hints and assumptions obscure real needs: People with an Emotional Communication Style often drop hints about what they desire. They do not think it's necessary to be more specific because they're able to pick up on the nuances of what other people say, and they assume everyone can. Yet people with the Logical Communication Style need you to say what you mean. They don't want guesswork; they want directness and clarity. Result: ambiguity and conflict.
There are differences in the time needed for decision making: People with an Emotional Communication Style take time making decisions. They need to figure out how they feel, and this isn't always cut and dried, so they do not like to be rushed through the process. That can come across to the Logical Communication Style person as being dimwitted or indecisive: "Can't you just look at the facts and decide? How complicated could that be?" Result: condescension and conflict.
People with a Logical Communication Style can be "in their heads.": People with an Emotional Communication Style see the Logical Communication Style as being hyper-intellectual, out of touch with feelings. "All those people do is think, think and think some more." Someone with an Emotional Communication Style wants you to feel what's behind the words, which is the most important part of the communication. Someone with a Logical Communication Style takes the words at face value, analyzing the meaning of each one and deriving a total meaning from the sum of those parts. For instance, one person says, "I hate you," meaning, in the Emotional Communication Style, "My feelings about this are so big that I need to express myself forcefully." Once said, that releases the emotion, and it's over. However, in the Logical Communication Style, this means it's time to starts packing the bags. Hate = no love = the relationship is over. Result: miscommunication and conflict.
How to Appreciate Your Emotional Talking Style Partner
People with a logical talking style converse systematically. You use words according to their dictionary definition (or their understanding) and lay them out like bricks in a wall. When there is something you don't understand, it creates a hole that is filled by asking a question so you can move forward. Consider the following actions to appreciate, honor and acknowledge your Emotional Talking Style partner:
Create an agreement at the beginning of the conversation about when you will ask questions. You will be better able to stay with the conversation without interrupting if you can trust that all the details will eventually be supplied. The person with the Emotional Style will also feel that he or she is now "being heard" instead of analyzed.
How to Appreciate Your Logical Talking Style Partner
If you have an Emotional Talking Style you tend to talk in a stream of consciousness. You assume others know what you know. Consider the following actions to appreciate, honor and acknowledge your Logical Talking Style partner:
Do your best to become aware of when you're assuming something. You can also ask the person with the Logical Style to point it out. Understand that when people with the Logical Communication Style ask you questions, they are confused because of the many alternatives they see. They aren't able to interpret what you are saying. Be aware that it is a major irritation to someone with a Logical Communication Style to have to ask questions to confirm their understanding. Remember each of you uses words differently.
posted by Shouraku at 4:52 PM on December 6, 2011 [35 favorites]
First, offhandedly casting doubt on her "claims" of recurrent sexual abuse is a pretty disrespectful way to behave towards someone you're in love with.
Second, she's been in therapy for four years. That's great, and I'm happy that she's working through her issues. Are you also seeing a professional? You say that you feel like you have to disregard your needs to fit hers, you expressing anger leads her to shut down during arguments, and you're questioning if you've made a mistake by being in this relationship. These are serious issues MeFi can't address, but a therapist can help you work through more productive ways to deal with these tough conversations and figure out a way to stand up for your needs without dismissing hers.
Third, having lost your best friend and your former girlfriend was a decision you made, and should not affect your decision now to stay or leave this relationship. Believing the myth of sunk cost-- the idea that you've already invested so much/lost so much for this relationship, so you have to keep going-- won't actually bring back those friends or fix your current relationship. You should separate your history from your present, in this regard.
posted by verbyournouns at 4:53 PM on December 6, 2011 [9 favorites]
Second, she's been in therapy for four years. That's great, and I'm happy that she's working through her issues. Are you also seeing a professional? You say that you feel like you have to disregard your needs to fit hers, you expressing anger leads her to shut down during arguments, and you're questioning if you've made a mistake by being in this relationship. These are serious issues MeFi can't address, but a therapist can help you work through more productive ways to deal with these tough conversations and figure out a way to stand up for your needs without dismissing hers.
Third, having lost your best friend and your former girlfriend was a decision you made, and should not affect your decision now to stay or leave this relationship. Believing the myth of sunk cost-- the idea that you've already invested so much/lost so much for this relationship, so you have to keep going-- won't actually bring back those friends or fix your current relationship. You should separate your history from your present, in this regard.
posted by verbyournouns at 4:53 PM on December 6, 2011 [9 favorites]
However, losing her, after losing my former girlfriend and my best friend, in other words some of the most meaningful relationships I’ve ever had, would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable.
She's not a totem that you need to hang on to to justify previous actions.
Either you it's a good relationship that satisfies your needs and wants or it isn't. It doesn't sound like it is.
Finally, it doesn't sound as though you respect her and her past. It sounds like you tolerant her and that's not healthy for either of you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:55 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
She's not a totem that you need to hang on to to justify previous actions.
Either you it's a good relationship that satisfies your needs and wants or it isn't. It doesn't sound like it is.
Finally, it doesn't sound as though you respect her and her past. It sounds like you tolerant her and that's not healthy for either of you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:55 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
You come across as really condescending and pompous in this post. Maybe you're not in real life, but consider that your tone could be a major part of any communication issue.
posted by fshgrl at 4:59 PM on December 6, 2011 [29 favorites]
posted by fshgrl at 4:59 PM on December 6, 2011 [29 favorites]
If you didn't have the baggage of past choices, would you even bother trying to save this relationship?
Just because you've invested a lot in this relationship doesn't mean it will last. Whatever you gave up to be together is gone. It is no longer part of the decision.
The real question is what are you both willing to do to be happy together? What would it take to build the respect that is the foundation of a solid relationship? Can you either change your beliefs or learn to respect the differences?
posted by 26.2 at 5:14 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just because you've invested a lot in this relationship doesn't mean it will last. Whatever you gave up to be together is gone. It is no longer part of the decision.
The real question is what are you both willing to do to be happy together? What would it take to build the respect that is the foundation of a solid relationship? Can you either change your beliefs or learn to respect the differences?
posted by 26.2 at 5:14 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: To clarify one point : I do not cast doubt on her past. But I can't say it's true. Just because you love someone does not mean you should believe everything he/she tells you, especially if it may incriminate someone. This matter is too serious to make a claim either way without hard evidence, simply.
posted by that_guy at 5:20 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by that_guy at 5:20 PM on December 6, 2011
I, typical INTP, have had a somewhat exaggerated reputation as a libertine who likes women, parties, and have been cheating on a former girlfriend.
I would just like to point out that that list is in no way a list of typical INTP traits or behaviors.
I was expecting that sentence to end something like this: "I, typical INTP, am more solitary than my girlfriend although I care a great deal about connections with individual people; my more logical approach to situations can sometimes cause friction between us." To me, that first sentence indicates that you're using the Meyers-Brigg stuff as an excuse for behavior that it doesn't really excuse.
posted by colfax at 5:21 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
I would just like to point out that that list is in no way a list of typical INTP traits or behaviors.
I was expecting that sentence to end something like this: "I, typical INTP, am more solitary than my girlfriend although I care a great deal about connections with individual people; my more logical approach to situations can sometimes cause friction between us." To me, that first sentence indicates that you're using the Meyers-Brigg stuff as an excuse for behavior that it doesn't really excuse.
posted by colfax at 5:21 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: I know, as I said, this reputation is exagerated
posted by that_guy at 5:22 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by that_guy at 5:22 PM on December 6, 2011
She was –or at least claims to have been- victim of recurrent sexual abuse
This. After 2 years together, you still don't know if you believe her? Also: she then snooped on your computer while you were at work, something she has done before.
Neither of you trust each other. Neither of you is even very NICE to each other. This goes way beyond personality differences.
Let the relationship go, accept that you gambled and lost, learn from the experience and move on.
posted by elizeh at 5:25 PM on December 6, 2011 [10 favorites]
This. After 2 years together, you still don't know if you believe her? Also: she then snooped on your computer while you were at work, something she has done before.
Neither of you trust each other. Neither of you is even very NICE to each other. This goes way beyond personality differences.
Let the relationship go, accept that you gambled and lost, learn from the experience and move on.
posted by elizeh at 5:25 PM on December 6, 2011 [10 favorites]
...at some point he jokingly said I should slap her in the face
she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening
What did you say in response to his "joke"?
Also, you seem to doubt both her feelings ("She claimed to feel threatened") and her experiences (the sexual abuse). Being in a relationship where I would have to provide some sort of proof to have my feelings and experiences validated seems like it would be exhausting.
posted by amarynth at 5:33 PM on December 6, 2011 [9 favorites]
she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening
What did you say in response to his "joke"?
Also, you seem to doubt both her feelings ("She claimed to feel threatened") and her experiences (the sexual abuse). Being in a relationship where I would have to provide some sort of proof to have my feelings and experiences validated seems like it would be exhausting.
posted by amarynth at 5:33 PM on December 6, 2011 [9 favorites]
Holy, holy fuck.
1) In what universe is joking about slapping your girlfriend okay?
2) If your girlfriend told you that she was mugged before she met you and now she's afraid to be out alone at night, would you believe her then? Are you kidding? If you honestly think she would lie about sexual abuse, you do not respect her at all (and if your problem is that in general you don't think any women should be believed about their sexual abuse without WITNESSES, then you have a problem with women).
Neither of you sound like you even like each other, and "because I broke up with my best friend and my ex" is one of the top 5 worst reasons not to end a relationship of all time. You need to break-up, work on yourselves, and start from scratch.
posted by stoneandstar at 5:39 PM on December 6, 2011 [23 favorites]
1) In what universe is joking about slapping your girlfriend okay?
2) If your girlfriend told you that she was mugged before she met you and now she's afraid to be out alone at night, would you believe her then? Are you kidding? If you honestly think she would lie about sexual abuse, you do not respect her at all (and if your problem is that in general you don't think any women should be believed about their sexual abuse without WITNESSES, then you have a problem with women).
Neither of you sound like you even like each other, and "because I broke up with my best friend and my ex" is one of the top 5 worst reasons not to end a relationship of all time. You need to break-up, work on yourselves, and start from scratch.
posted by stoneandstar at 5:39 PM on December 6, 2011 [23 favorites]
Also, in both cases, I felt she was acting based on whatever she felt was true, regardless of how arbitrary and divorced from reality that could be.
From your girlfriend's perspective, can you see how little asides like this could make communication even harder? Not only might she feel pressure to rise to your preferred level of logic and reason during heated moments, but she also has to scramble just to get you to accept that she isn't making up everything she says and feels. There's an undercurrent of contempt for her ability to perceive and report reality throughout your question, and it's very difficult to assume you're making open good-faith attempts to communicate with her given this attitude.
If I told my boyfriend I'd been the victim of recurring sexual abuse and his response was, "That's unfortunate, if it's true," I'd have a very hard time accepting any future constructive criticism about my judgments.
posted by ausdemfenster at 5:40 PM on December 6, 2011 [9 favorites]
From your girlfriend's perspective, can you see how little asides like this could make communication even harder? Not only might she feel pressure to rise to your preferred level of logic and reason during heated moments, but she also has to scramble just to get you to accept that she isn't making up everything she says and feels. There's an undercurrent of contempt for her ability to perceive and report reality throughout your question, and it's very difficult to assume you're making open good-faith attempts to communicate with her given this attitude.
If I told my boyfriend I'd been the victim of recurring sexual abuse and his response was, "That's unfortunate, if it's true," I'd have a very hard time accepting any future constructive criticism about my judgments.
posted by ausdemfenster at 5:40 PM on December 6, 2011 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: In response to amarynth : I did not answer the joke. I have doubts about a few things indeed, the post was meant to help me sort it out. I'd like to thank everyone for the comments so far.
posted by that_guy at 5:41 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by that_guy at 5:41 PM on December 6, 2011
I wonder how much of your attraction to each other is about the 'drama!!'. The drama of stealing your best friend's girlfriend, the drama of having a 'delightful young girl' (and how old are you?), the drama of her prying, of your white-knighting, the drama of 'let's break up!' etc. It sounds as though there are a lot of dramatic power-plays going on between the two of you.
You may love her, you may be sexually attracted to her, you may appreciate her young delightfulness, but it doesn't sound as if you like her very much. Or respect, as others have mentioned.
I wonder if your hurt and frustration is stemming not from communication difficulties between each other, but a lack of communication within yourself. I wonder if you are not being totally honest with yourself about your real feelings for her. You have some doubts about the veracity of some of her 'claims'. I wonder if these are just a cover up for your doubts about your own claims of loving her.
posted by Kerasia at 5:50 PM on December 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
You may love her, you may be sexually attracted to her, you may appreciate her young delightfulness, but it doesn't sound as if you like her very much. Or respect, as others have mentioned.
I wonder if your hurt and frustration is stemming not from communication difficulties between each other, but a lack of communication within yourself. I wonder if you are not being totally honest with yourself about your real feelings for her. You have some doubts about the veracity of some of her 'claims'. I wonder if these are just a cover up for your doubts about your own claims of loving her.
posted by Kerasia at 5:50 PM on December 6, 2011 [4 favorites]
Best answer: It seems like you need to set some limits in your life general. Why are you getting into emotional conversations at inopportune times? Why are you letting her look through your computer with impunity? Because it's easier than saying, "no"? Or because you feel that people in healthy relationships necessarily give each other 100% access all the time? I'd challenge both of those assumptions. You have a lot of resentment towards her, as others have pointed out, and it's probably because you two are destroying each others' boundaries. It's natural to be angry when someone is walking on you.
posted by amodelcitizen at 5:53 PM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by amodelcitizen at 5:53 PM on December 6, 2011 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with everyone else who says you aren't compatible.
IANYD, but your interactions also loosely fit a Narcissistic Man/Borderline Woman dynamic. Maybe you're not textbook cases, but you sure seem to trigger one another's dysfunction in those ways.
The way you idealize her mainly because *you* chose her over someone else, your past history of being a cad, the way you challenge her most sacred beliefs because you don't share them, and the way she shuts down emotionally, acts crazy, violates your privacy and keeps you at a (tantalizing, perhaps?) distance all fit the toxic NPD/BDP dynamic.
Just sayin'.
posted by devymetal at 5:56 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
IANYD, but your interactions also loosely fit a Narcissistic Man/Borderline Woman dynamic. Maybe you're not textbook cases, but you sure seem to trigger one another's dysfunction in those ways.
The way you idealize her mainly because *you* chose her over someone else, your past history of being a cad, the way you challenge her most sacred beliefs because you don't share them, and the way she shuts down emotionally, acts crazy, violates your privacy and keeps you at a (tantalizing, perhaps?) distance all fit the toxic NPD/BDP dynamic.
Just sayin'.
posted by devymetal at 5:56 PM on December 6, 2011 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: devymetal, I've never heard of such things before, but it sounds big. Can you recommend some documentation ?
posted by that_guy at 6:00 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by that_guy at 6:00 PM on December 6, 2011
http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201010/breaking-borderlinenarcissistic-partner-is-really-hard-do-part-1
http://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Borderline-Couple-Psychoanalytic-Perspective/dp/0876306342
You and/or your partner may not share enough characteristics to be full-on NPD or BPD (or maybe you do?), but the dynamic sounds pretty much like what you're describing. Hopefully you find something in there that resonates with you.
posted by devymetal at 6:29 PM on December 6, 2011
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201010/breaking-borderlinenarcissistic-partner-is-really-hard-do-part-1
http://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Borderline-Couple-Psychoanalytic-Perspective/dp/0876306342
You and/or your partner may not share enough characteristics to be full-on NPD or BPD (or maybe you do?), but the dynamic sounds pretty much like what you're describing. Hopefully you find something in there that resonates with you.
posted by devymetal at 6:29 PM on December 6, 2011
Response by poster: I found the first link. It speaks to me, at least to a certain extent. Thanks a lot.
posted by that_guy at 6:31 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by that_guy at 6:31 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
"delightful young girl"
This is an incredibly icky way to refer to your girlfriend? How old are both of you?
I get the sense you don't view her as an equal.
posted by timsneezed at 6:44 PM on December 6, 2011 [17 favorites]
This is an incredibly icky way to refer to your girlfriend? How old are both of you?
I get the sense you don't view her as an equal.
posted by timsneezed at 6:44 PM on December 6, 2011 [17 favorites]
Well. I just spent...a long time...trying to formulate a response to your question and then your responses that takes into account all of my experience with therapy and my study of sociology and my...well. I failed. To make it short(er).
All of this INTP ENblahblahblahForer effect. You have become a victim of it. My condolences. You will recover, I promise. (By the way, I'm an ENFTP or maybe an ENxP. whatever. But what I want or how I respond is as much situational as it is...my personality, this is true across humanity, check out literature surrounding the stanford prison experiments for discussion of this.)
Sliding vs deciding. You chose her, caused a lot of pain to other people, and now you are thinking that "you've made your bed, now you have to lie in it." That was/is becoming the sliding part. Now you have an opportunity to make a big big decision. It's a lot easier (in the short term) to keep sliding. In the short term, breaking up is ugly and painful, but it may cause a lot more pain in the long term. That speaker, Scott Stanley has a blog. Check it out.
Attribution errors. You are making several in the ways that you account for the things that have happened. Heider wrote a great book about this in 1958. (these errors are very very common, they appear to be embedded in human nature, they are not evidence of any inherent character flaw, but they are making your life harder because they are errors.) In short, you see the ways your situation is shaping your choices ("Because I was feeling so bad at the time, and needed to get things out of my system, I told him"), but you view her choices as being driven by her character flaws, "the weaknesses of her judgments." You are expressing that you think she's doing things because she just doesn't get it, or because she's too, what, immature to behave like an adult? View her situation a little more. She has a boyfriend who jokes about slapping her, doesn't believe her history of sexual abuse, and believes that "would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable."
Sure, temporarily you'd be in some pain. But in the long run, you'd have better odds of finding a girlfriend who trusts you, who you believe, and who has the same spiritual goals and values that you cherish (or don't cherish, whatever.). Staying with her sets you both up for the pain of being in a continually awful relationship where you blame your shortcomings on "incompatible communication styles" but hers get attributed to feelings that are (or may be) "arbitrary and divorced from reality."
But then this...."Needless to say I would never hurt my darling girl," is actually, 1. not ever ever ever self evident, and 2, incredibly patronizing.
The other positive thing you say about her is that she is "delightful" and "young." You don't offer any positive specific things about her. She doesn't make great jokes, she doesn't cook the best apple strudel, she doesn't have the most gorgeous smile you've ever seen, she doesn't finish your sentences, or whatever. You complain a lot about her.
Ok. Wow. So, that was still ridiculously long. Sorry about that. Basically. Break up. You don't trust her. She doesn't trust you. You have presented no evidence for why either should trust the other. (really, you broke up with your girlfriend and stole your best friends lady and you don't understand why she doesn't trust you not to cheat or whatever? I mean, I get that past performance doesn't guarantee future performance, but really? You have set a mighty fine precedent here.)
posted by bilabial at 6:48 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
All of this INTP ENblahblahblahForer effect. You have become a victim of it. My condolences. You will recover, I promise. (By the way, I'm an ENFTP or maybe an ENxP. whatever. But what I want or how I respond is as much situational as it is...my personality, this is true across humanity, check out literature surrounding the stanford prison experiments for discussion of this.)
Sliding vs deciding. You chose her, caused a lot of pain to other people, and now you are thinking that "you've made your bed, now you have to lie in it." That was/is becoming the sliding part. Now you have an opportunity to make a big big decision. It's a lot easier (in the short term) to keep sliding. In the short term, breaking up is ugly and painful, but it may cause a lot more pain in the long term. That speaker, Scott Stanley has a blog. Check it out.
Attribution errors. You are making several in the ways that you account for the things that have happened. Heider wrote a great book about this in 1958. (these errors are very very common, they appear to be embedded in human nature, they are not evidence of any inherent character flaw, but they are making your life harder because they are errors.) In short, you see the ways your situation is shaping your choices ("Because I was feeling so bad at the time, and needed to get things out of my system, I told him"), but you view her choices as being driven by her character flaws, "the weaknesses of her judgments." You are expressing that you think she's doing things because she just doesn't get it, or because she's too, what, immature to behave like an adult? View her situation a little more. She has a boyfriend who jokes about slapping her, doesn't believe her history of sexual abuse, and believes that "would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable."
Sure, temporarily you'd be in some pain. But in the long run, you'd have better odds of finding a girlfriend who trusts you, who you believe, and who has the same spiritual goals and values that you cherish (or don't cherish, whatever.). Staying with her sets you both up for the pain of being in a continually awful relationship where you blame your shortcomings on "incompatible communication styles" but hers get attributed to feelings that are (or may be) "arbitrary and divorced from reality."
But then this...."Needless to say I would never hurt my darling girl," is actually, 1. not ever ever ever self evident, and 2, incredibly patronizing.
The other positive thing you say about her is that she is "delightful" and "young." You don't offer any positive specific things about her. She doesn't make great jokes, she doesn't cook the best apple strudel, she doesn't have the most gorgeous smile you've ever seen, she doesn't finish your sentences, or whatever. You complain a lot about her.
Ok. Wow. So, that was still ridiculously long. Sorry about that. Basically. Break up. You don't trust her. She doesn't trust you. You have presented no evidence for why either should trust the other. (really, you broke up with your girlfriend and stole your best friends lady and you don't understand why she doesn't trust you not to cheat or whatever? I mean, I get that past performance doesn't guarantee future performance, but really? You have set a mighty fine precedent here.)
posted by bilabial at 6:48 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
Please don't diagnose yourself and your girlfriend with serious mental illnesses because of stuff you read on the internet.
Yes you might have them and you might fall into patterns related to them but really it sounds like you have enough problems with your relationship without going down that wormhole and trying to fit your relationship into a set pattern.
What really jumped out at me from your description is that you don't seem to respect your girlfriend, and staying with her as many people have pointed out because you lost a girlfriend/friend is wrong as no one deserves to be someones punishment.
And the other thing is that this lack of respect seems to lead to you treating her like something that needs to be fixed. You point out that you first "point out some observable facts that challenge her opinion. It never seems to do any good. Then I switch to constructive criticism, pointing out the weaknesses of her judgments, and saying I’d accept her criticism if she would hear mine in return."
This is a pretty crappy way of communicating if your goal is to come to a resolution and stop fighting. Its a great way of winning an argument but a really bad way of winning a relationship.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 6:53 PM on December 6, 2011 [7 favorites]
Yes you might have them and you might fall into patterns related to them but really it sounds like you have enough problems with your relationship without going down that wormhole and trying to fit your relationship into a set pattern.
What really jumped out at me from your description is that you don't seem to respect your girlfriend, and staying with her as many people have pointed out because you lost a girlfriend/friend is wrong as no one deserves to be someones punishment.
And the other thing is that this lack of respect seems to lead to you treating her like something that needs to be fixed. You point out that you first "point out some observable facts that challenge her opinion. It never seems to do any good. Then I switch to constructive criticism, pointing out the weaknesses of her judgments, and saying I’d accept her criticism if she would hear mine in return."
This is a pretty crappy way of communicating if your goal is to come to a resolution and stop fighting. Its a great way of winning an argument but a really bad way of winning a relationship.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 6:53 PM on December 6, 2011 [7 favorites]
Oh. Also. You have priveleged your perspective. By that I mean, you have decided, from the get go, that you are right and just need to bring her around. The goal of your communication "crusade" is to win and "communicate" your rightness to her in a way that she will finally understand, internalize, and act upon.
You have not been asking for perspective on how to see where she might be coming from.
You have also not given any indication that you want her to be happy or comfortable. You just want her to agree with/see your reality, or at least act in the ways that make you comfortable.
This attitude is not a recipe for your (or her) long term happiness.
posted by bilabial at 7:06 PM on December 6, 2011 [15 favorites]
You have not been asking for perspective on how to see where she might be coming from.
You have also not given any indication that you want her to be happy or comfortable. You just want her to agree with/see your reality, or at least act in the ways that make you comfortable.
This attitude is not a recipe for your (or her) long term happiness.
posted by bilabial at 7:06 PM on December 6, 2011 [15 favorites]
Response by poster: Bilabial, spontaneous contributions as to what I might habe overlooked, or not talked about in the initial post for various reasons, are welcome. My resentment should not give anyone the impression that I consider myself a self rigtheous judge in this matter. I feel frustrated, and I realize how much the text conveys that idea now.
posted by that_guy at 7:14 PM on December 6, 2011
posted by that_guy at 7:14 PM on December 6, 2011
Look at it this way - if your relationship goes down in flames you may give your exes some grim satisfaction, like, "I told you so." So if you really want to make amends, just keep going like you are until you drive each other insane.
posted by yarly at 7:16 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by yarly at 7:16 PM on December 6, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just because you love someone does not mean you should believe everything he/she tells you, especially if it may incriminate someone. This matter is too serious to make a claim either way without hard evidence, simply.
Please do your girlfriend a favor and break up with her. If you are treating the matter of her experiences of sexual abuse like it's a criminal case that requires "hard evidence" rather than as an intensely emotional issue for which she needs your support, there are some deep, deep problems with your relationship. And in order to support her, you need to at the very least, believe that she is telling you the truth about something that, as you acknowledge, is extremely serious.
If you don't want to break up with her, you need to educate yourself about sexual abuse, PTSD, and how partners of survivors can help facilitate healing and empowerment. There's lots of books and other resources about that. (Hint: letting your friends joke about physically attacking her is not a good way of making her feel safe.)
she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening, the simple fact of talking about slapping her apparently being almost as bad as doing it
Are you familiar with the concept of triggers? For someone with PTSD, hearing someone talk about physically attacking them can literally be as bad as being physically assaulted.
my impression was that she was impossible to reach, almost like locked up into some sort of protective bubble
It sounds like she may have been dissociating.
posted by overglow at 7:26 PM on December 6, 2011 [14 favorites]
Please do your girlfriend a favor and break up with her. If you are treating the matter of her experiences of sexual abuse like it's a criminal case that requires "hard evidence" rather than as an intensely emotional issue for which she needs your support, there are some deep, deep problems with your relationship. And in order to support her, you need to at the very least, believe that she is telling you the truth about something that, as you acknowledge, is extremely serious.
If you don't want to break up with her, you need to educate yourself about sexual abuse, PTSD, and how partners of survivors can help facilitate healing and empowerment. There's lots of books and other resources about that. (Hint: letting your friends joke about physically attacking her is not a good way of making her feel safe.)
she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening, the simple fact of talking about slapping her apparently being almost as bad as doing it
Are you familiar with the concept of triggers? For someone with PTSD, hearing someone talk about physically attacking them can literally be as bad as being physically assaulted.
my impression was that she was impossible to reach, almost like locked up into some sort of protective bubble
It sounds like she may have been dissociating.
posted by overglow at 7:26 PM on December 6, 2011 [14 favorites]
One of the parts of sociology that I find most fascinating is sociolinguistics, and within that field, I really love speech and language patterns.
Which is to say, I'm pretty good at picking out how word choice, phrasing and other aspects of speech (written and spoken) might correlate to emotional and perceptual....stuff.
Your block of text reveals a lot more about you than you expect.
And my block of text reveals a lot more about me than even I am aware.
You are revealing a belief that you are right (not just more right, but totally right) and superior and possibly more worthy, and the only objective partner in this pair, and it is understandably uncomfortable to have that pointed out. But it's there. The number of diminutives you use for her, your attitude that she is something you won or earned or sacrificed for, assertions that she is not connected to reality, the idea that leaving her will add insult to injury.
I'm usually very quick to suggest therapy here on ask.me, but for you, I just suggest leave her. Take a good long hard look at the patterns of your friendships and romances. Maybe get some therapy down the road. Don't take a lover or a girlfriend for a while, maybe 6 months. Maybe a year. Be happy with you. Hone your listening skills. Practice being an effective communicator with everyone. Think hard about what you hope to accomplish in conversations. (Deepen the relationship? Get a tangible result? Understand the other party more thoroughly? Something else? Prioritize those desires.)
Look more deeply at your emotions. When are you lonely, when are you jealous, when are you afraid, when are you embarassed, when are you excited and happy and sad and curious? Take ownership of your emotions. Stop allowing other people to throw you into whatever emotion it was you blamed on her in your original question. Take ownership of your actions and their results.
posted by bilabial at 7:39 PM on December 6, 2011 [11 favorites]
Which is to say, I'm pretty good at picking out how word choice, phrasing and other aspects of speech (written and spoken) might correlate to emotional and perceptual....stuff.
Your block of text reveals a lot more about you than you expect.
And my block of text reveals a lot more about me than even I am aware.
You are revealing a belief that you are right (not just more right, but totally right) and superior and possibly more worthy, and the only objective partner in this pair, and it is understandably uncomfortable to have that pointed out. But it's there. The number of diminutives you use for her, your attitude that she is something you won or earned or sacrificed for, assertions that she is not connected to reality, the idea that leaving her will add insult to injury.
I'm usually very quick to suggest therapy here on ask.me, but for you, I just suggest leave her. Take a good long hard look at the patterns of your friendships and romances. Maybe get some therapy down the road. Don't take a lover or a girlfriend for a while, maybe 6 months. Maybe a year. Be happy with you. Hone your listening skills. Practice being an effective communicator with everyone. Think hard about what you hope to accomplish in conversations. (Deepen the relationship? Get a tangible result? Understand the other party more thoroughly? Something else? Prioritize those desires.)
Look more deeply at your emotions. When are you lonely, when are you jealous, when are you afraid, when are you embarassed, when are you excited and happy and sad and curious? Take ownership of your emotions. Stop allowing other people to throw you into whatever emotion it was you blamed on her in your original question. Take ownership of your actions and their results.
posted by bilabial at 7:39 PM on December 6, 2011 [11 favorites]
Ay yi yi, where to start? I haven't read the other replies yet, so I might be repeating people.
The only thing which in my opinion could morally justify such otherwise despicable actions is to try as hard as I can to make this relationship work, and I am determined to do so.
This doesn't make any sense. How could your relationship working out "morally justify" something you see as despicable? (I presume you're talking about cheating on/hurting other people when you mention "despicable actions.)
How does it help those people if your relationship works out or not? What do they care? How does YOU getting something good justify hurting OTHER people? If you want to get right morally in this situation, apologize to the people you hurt, make the amends you can to them, and do the internal work to ensure you don't engage in those actions again, if needed.
And all of that aside, you are just going to keep digging yourself deeper into misery for no good reason the more you keep clinging to this opinion.
I, typical INTP, have had a somewhat exaggerated reputation as a libertine who likes women, parties, and have been cheating on a former girlfriend.
I am an INTP and I don't identify with a word of this. Being an INTP has nothing to do how much someone likes to get drunk and sleep around, that's about your own appetites for those things. Being an INTP has nothing to do with whether you cheat on people or not, that's about your own strength of character.
I keep seeing this -- "I'm a typical INTP, so of course, I [list of negative traits]" I think some people use their Myers-Briggs designation to explain and JUSTIFY their less desirable/negative traits to themselves. After all, if something is part of your inherent, unchangeable personality, then, how could anyone ever expect you to change it? How could anyone ever tell you those traits are not an okay way to act and you need to get them completely under control? And if you can just throw all sorts of traits under this convenient label, then you'll never have to do any work to examine them and find out where they are actually coming from.
I'm not talking specifically here about your former carousing since you already said you are over that. I just think in general you are putting meanings into these labels that they weren't meant to have, so I think you would do best to just forget them in the context of this question.
Now -- the first event you describe. Neither of you acted maturely here.
That’s the moment she chose for one of our typical fights.
You start out by blaming this fight 100% on her. It sounds like she tried to tactfully bring up her discomfort about the party, and it snowballed from there because of BOTH of your reactions to each other. This is not just her fault and if you still are more interested in getting along with her than just breaking up, it's not going to help if you act like it's just her fault..
We had been invited for the next summer to a family celebration thrown by a friend of hers. She told me her friends family was rather Christian, that she was not feeling comfortable with being in a casual relationship, feared that they would think less of her because of that, until I realized she was asking me not to come. I was a bit surprised, sad to be deemed not good enough, and let her know.
? Why did you leap to "she was asking me not to come?" She was expressing how she wasn't comfortable with being in a casual relationship around all these Christians. And you completely jumped to "she's asking me not to come and I have been deemed not good enough."
Do you see that you completely ignored what she was trying to express to you, about her feelings and concerns, and completely steamrolled over that in order to express YOUR feelings about how it affects YOU?
Your feelings have an equal place here, and I'm not saying you should have stifled them. But your feelings are only half. You should not have just ignored that concern she was expressing to you. Your reply should have been:
"You feel uncomfortable with being in a casual relationship around your friend's family. Let's talk about that and see if we can find a way to resolve it. I do have to tell you that when I hear you are uncomfortable in that situation, I feel hurt and like I'm not good enough. I'd like for us to talk about that, too."
And now, the shoe is on the other food and she behaves badly:
She got angry, accused me of having no moral values, no spiritual life and being driven only by hedonism, and threatened to break up.
This is extremely immature of her. In this situation tell her, "I don't appreciate you saying those things about me because you know they aren't true. I am very willing to talk about whether our morals/spiritual lives are too dissimilar for us to stay together, but I don't think there's a point in continuing the conversation right now if we're just going to be pushing each other's buttons."
I think you should also tell her that it's not fair to you that threaten you with breaking up, that it creates an emotional roller coaster, and that you would rather just go ahead and break up than be threatened with it.
I felt it was unfair, since I do care about spirituality, but I see it as a mostly personal thing. My approach to spirituality, like most other things, tries to be rather intellectual, while she seems to be more into the community, Sunday hobby type of thing. Let’s be clear, her approach is entirely fine if she likes it, but it’s not mine, and I don’t want to be dragged into a cult by emotional blackmail, which I tried my best to explain with limited success.
No wonder, if your tone was anywhere near as contemptuous as it is here. Referring to something that's apparently deeply important to her on some level as a "Sunday hobby?" while your far loftier approach is "rather intellectual?" Calling her religion a "cult"? Incredibly disrespectful and contemptuous.
You really need to learn how to express your own feelings and beliefs securely WITHOUT putting down the feelings and beliefs of others. Maybe nobody ever told you this, but you're not going to get along with anyone if you express contempt for the things that are really important to them, and elevate your own self by comparison. You're also not supposed to treat your loved ones with contempt, period.
I was shocked to discover she no longer cared about the event or the hedonism issue, as if it had never happened. I was still hurt, but felt unable to express it in a way she would care about, and dropped the topic.
If you're hurt, but she won't care about it unless you find the magic way to express it, that's a big, big problem. I'm giving you negative feedback about your actions here but it sounds like she's got a lot of work to do, too.
As I went to work, she snooped into my computer, checking out browser, google chat and Skype history. I knew she had this bad habit because it got us into trouble in the past,
If she knows she's not supposed to look, but yet she still looks anyway, out of nothing more than nosiness/controllingness, that's not a "bad habit," it's a fundamental lack of respect for you.
at some point he jokingly said I should slap her in the face. Needless to say I would never hurt my darling girl, and he did not mean that anyway. Nevertheless, she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening, the simple fact of talking about slapping her apparently being almost as bad as doing it, and mentioned it would be a good reason for breaking up.
To be honest, this would really creep me out too. How did you reply to this? Not that her creeping through your convos is okay, but just as a separate issue. If a guy was "joking" with his friends about bitch-slapping me, I'd totally think that was a great reason for breaking up. Just saying.
More importantly for your situation, this is the SECOND time you've mentioned so far that she talks about breaking up, how she wants to break up, how she thinks breaking up would be a great idea.
Despite the good things in your relationship, which you don't mention but I'm sure exist, there's this undercurrent of contempt from you, and from her a sense that she thinks you're a hedonistic sleaze. I think she wants to break up. If she picks fights, I think she does it because she wants to break up. I really think trying to stop her will eventually be a losing battle.
The typical reaction is that we are too different anyway, and that we’d better break up sometime soon. ... Over the last few weeks, such incidents have been increasingly frequent, and I am still unable to sort it out.
Yeah. She wants to break up, I think it's pretty clear. No matter how hard you try to tell someone that something is not true, you're not going make a dent if all they're doing is looking for justification to break up.
Bottom line, you both have way too much growing up and maturing to do here to be in a functional relationship with each other, it sounds.
I am wondering if I am being used,
What would she be using you for if all she wants is to go?
and whether I did not make a huge mistake getting into this relationship to begin with.
Meh. Maybe, in the sense that you didn't turn out to be compatible. But I think it's not always possible to find out if you're compatible or not with someone without dating them. And if you learned anything from the relationship, then I think it wasn't a loss.
However, losing her, after losing my former girlfriend and my best friend, in other words some of the most meaningful relationships I’ve ever had, would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable.
Rather than clinging to her, why not do what you can to make amends to those two? Not to try to put things back together romantically with the ex girlfriend, but just try to make amends as another human being?
posted by cairdeas at 8:15 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
The only thing which in my opinion could morally justify such otherwise despicable actions is to try as hard as I can to make this relationship work, and I am determined to do so.
This doesn't make any sense. How could your relationship working out "morally justify" something you see as despicable? (I presume you're talking about cheating on/hurting other people when you mention "despicable actions.)
How does it help those people if your relationship works out or not? What do they care? How does YOU getting something good justify hurting OTHER people? If you want to get right morally in this situation, apologize to the people you hurt, make the amends you can to them, and do the internal work to ensure you don't engage in those actions again, if needed.
And all of that aside, you are just going to keep digging yourself deeper into misery for no good reason the more you keep clinging to this opinion.
I, typical INTP, have had a somewhat exaggerated reputation as a libertine who likes women, parties, and have been cheating on a former girlfriend.
I am an INTP and I don't identify with a word of this. Being an INTP has nothing to do how much someone likes to get drunk and sleep around, that's about your own appetites for those things. Being an INTP has nothing to do with whether you cheat on people or not, that's about your own strength of character.
I keep seeing this -- "I'm a typical INTP, so of course, I [list of negative traits]" I think some people use their Myers-Briggs designation to explain and JUSTIFY their less desirable/negative traits to themselves. After all, if something is part of your inherent, unchangeable personality, then, how could anyone ever expect you to change it? How could anyone ever tell you those traits are not an okay way to act and you need to get them completely under control? And if you can just throw all sorts of traits under this convenient label, then you'll never have to do any work to examine them and find out where they are actually coming from.
I'm not talking specifically here about your former carousing since you already said you are over that. I just think in general you are putting meanings into these labels that they weren't meant to have, so I think you would do best to just forget them in the context of this question.
Now -- the first event you describe. Neither of you acted maturely here.
That’s the moment she chose for one of our typical fights.
You start out by blaming this fight 100% on her. It sounds like she tried to tactfully bring up her discomfort about the party, and it snowballed from there because of BOTH of your reactions to each other. This is not just her fault and if you still are more interested in getting along with her than just breaking up, it's not going to help if you act like it's just her fault..
We had been invited for the next summer to a family celebration thrown by a friend of hers. She told me her friends family was rather Christian, that she was not feeling comfortable with being in a casual relationship, feared that they would think less of her because of that, until I realized she was asking me not to come. I was a bit surprised, sad to be deemed not good enough, and let her know.
? Why did you leap to "she was asking me not to come?" She was expressing how she wasn't comfortable with being in a casual relationship around all these Christians. And you completely jumped to "she's asking me not to come and I have been deemed not good enough."
Do you see that you completely ignored what she was trying to express to you, about her feelings and concerns, and completely steamrolled over that in order to express YOUR feelings about how it affects YOU?
Your feelings have an equal place here, and I'm not saying you should have stifled them. But your feelings are only half. You should not have just ignored that concern she was expressing to you. Your reply should have been:
"You feel uncomfortable with being in a casual relationship around your friend's family. Let's talk about that and see if we can find a way to resolve it. I do have to tell you that when I hear you are uncomfortable in that situation, I feel hurt and like I'm not good enough. I'd like for us to talk about that, too."
And now, the shoe is on the other food and she behaves badly:
She got angry, accused me of having no moral values, no spiritual life and being driven only by hedonism, and threatened to break up.
This is extremely immature of her. In this situation tell her, "I don't appreciate you saying those things about me because you know they aren't true. I am very willing to talk about whether our morals/spiritual lives are too dissimilar for us to stay together, but I don't think there's a point in continuing the conversation right now if we're just going to be pushing each other's buttons."
I think you should also tell her that it's not fair to you that threaten you with breaking up, that it creates an emotional roller coaster, and that you would rather just go ahead and break up than be threatened with it.
I felt it was unfair, since I do care about spirituality, but I see it as a mostly personal thing. My approach to spirituality, like most other things, tries to be rather intellectual, while she seems to be more into the community, Sunday hobby type of thing. Let’s be clear, her approach is entirely fine if she likes it, but it’s not mine, and I don’t want to be dragged into a cult by emotional blackmail, which I tried my best to explain with limited success.
No wonder, if your tone was anywhere near as contemptuous as it is here. Referring to something that's apparently deeply important to her on some level as a "Sunday hobby?" while your far loftier approach is "rather intellectual?" Calling her religion a "cult"? Incredibly disrespectful and contemptuous.
You really need to learn how to express your own feelings and beliefs securely WITHOUT putting down the feelings and beliefs of others. Maybe nobody ever told you this, but you're not going to get along with anyone if you express contempt for the things that are really important to them, and elevate your own self by comparison. You're also not supposed to treat your loved ones with contempt, period.
I was shocked to discover she no longer cared about the event or the hedonism issue, as if it had never happened. I was still hurt, but felt unable to express it in a way she would care about, and dropped the topic.
If you're hurt, but she won't care about it unless you find the magic way to express it, that's a big, big problem. I'm giving you negative feedback about your actions here but it sounds like she's got a lot of work to do, too.
As I went to work, she snooped into my computer, checking out browser, google chat and Skype history. I knew she had this bad habit because it got us into trouble in the past,
If she knows she's not supposed to look, but yet she still looks anyway, out of nothing more than nosiness/controllingness, that's not a "bad habit," it's a fundamental lack of respect for you.
at some point he jokingly said I should slap her in the face. Needless to say I would never hurt my darling girl, and he did not mean that anyway. Nevertheless, she claimed to feel threatened when I came home from work that evening, the simple fact of talking about slapping her apparently being almost as bad as doing it, and mentioned it would be a good reason for breaking up.
To be honest, this would really creep me out too. How did you reply to this? Not that her creeping through your convos is okay, but just as a separate issue. If a guy was "joking" with his friends about bitch-slapping me, I'd totally think that was a great reason for breaking up. Just saying.
More importantly for your situation, this is the SECOND time you've mentioned so far that she talks about breaking up, how she wants to break up, how she thinks breaking up would be a great idea.
Despite the good things in your relationship, which you don't mention but I'm sure exist, there's this undercurrent of contempt from you, and from her a sense that she thinks you're a hedonistic sleaze. I think she wants to break up. If she picks fights, I think she does it because she wants to break up. I really think trying to stop her will eventually be a losing battle.
The typical reaction is that we are too different anyway, and that we’d better break up sometime soon. ... Over the last few weeks, such incidents have been increasingly frequent, and I am still unable to sort it out.
Yeah. She wants to break up, I think it's pretty clear. No matter how hard you try to tell someone that something is not true, you're not going make a dent if all they're doing is looking for justification to break up.
Bottom line, you both have way too much growing up and maturing to do here to be in a functional relationship with each other, it sounds.
I am wondering if I am being used,
What would she be using you for if all she wants is to go?
and whether I did not make a huge mistake getting into this relationship to begin with.
Meh. Maybe, in the sense that you didn't turn out to be compatible. But I think it's not always possible to find out if you're compatible or not with someone without dating them. And if you learned anything from the relationship, then I think it wasn't a loss.
However, losing her, after losing my former girlfriend and my best friend, in other words some of the most meaningful relationships I’ve ever had, would be adding insult to injury and leave me miserable.
Rather than clinging to her, why not do what you can to make amends to those two? Not to try to put things back together romantically with the ex girlfriend, but just try to make amends as another human being?
posted by cairdeas at 8:15 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
I was shocked and left speechless by the fact that she chose to start a fight over such futile matter, as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into, and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret.
I just want to examine little bits of this.
she chose to start a fight...
Choosing is a conscious activity. If someone chose to start a fight, it means that they actively made the decision, "Yes, now is a good time to fight." It means that it was perfectly possible for there to not be a fight -- like she could have, just as easily, made the decision for there to be no fight.
And she chose, in this way. So, the decision was hers. And only hers. What you are doing here is conceptualizing a fight as an active decision on her part to do something to you (which leaves you shocked and speechless). You are blaming her for the fight, where the fight is something consciously chosen and totally avoidable.
Compare your wording to this: "She was very upset, and this led to us getting into a fight." It takes two to tango; it takes two to fight. If every fight starts with you thinking, "There she goes again! Why is she doing this to me!?" you'll never be able to move to conflict resolution.
...over such a futile matter
Do you think she thinks it's futile? Do you think she'd agree to that? But you still express it as obvious, objective fact. You just state that it is futile. What does that imply about her (obvious) disagreement? It implies that you think she's obviously wrong. From the start, you do not give any consideration to her emotions. The fact that you state so simply that it's futile, in light of pretty obvious evidence that she disagrees with this assessment, is a way of invalidating her emotions. It is a way of saying that her opinions, emotions, assessments, and beliefs don't matter.
Here's a different way to say it: "...over an issue which, to me, didn't seem so important." This wording acknowledges your emotions about the subject, while also acknowledging her disagreement.
...as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up...
Why does it matter, here, that the joke was meant to cheer you up? What relation does the purpose of the joke (to cheer you up) have to do with how she feels about it? It sounds here like you think this purpose--cheering you up--should make moot her emotions--being upset about it. In other words, this wording here implies that something being good for you should obviously mean she can't be upset about it.
Here's a different way to say it: "...I only took it as a silly joke, and I don't understand why she feels otherwise."
...more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into...
What should she have done? It sounds, here, like you are blaming her for you feeling bad. She is upset, she informs you about why she is upset, you then get mad at her for making you upset by telling you she is upset. This makes it sound like she should have just stayed quiet--like, given that you finding out she's unhappy makes you unhappy means that she owes it to you to either always be happy or at least always act like she's happy. In essence, what you're saying is, "She should have known better than make me unhappy by being unhappy, herself!"
There's no different way to state this. There's no way to get around it: you're holding her accountable for your emotions. You're making her be responsible for always ensuring that you're happy, even when keeping you happy is at odds with her own emotional well-being. That's not good for you.
...and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret.
I don't understand this. Did she show no empathy or regret about the fact that you were unhappy? Well... Why should she have? You were unhappy because she was upset, and you hadn't addressed the fact that she was upset. It sounds like you want her to say, "I'm really sorry that me being mad at you is making you unhappy." But that's not a healthy thing for a person to say. That's not a healthy attitude for a person to take. When someone actively does something that hurts you, it's appropriate for them to apologize and regret it; when someone makes you unhappy merely by responding to something that has been done to them, then they haven't really done anything that requires apologizing. Who did the sucky thing here? Your friend did, by making a really disgusting, inappropriate, misogynistic 'joke' (or, at least, that's my opinion of it). And maybe you, by not calling out how inappropriate it was. But who is feeling your wrath? She is, because she was hurt by what you and your friend said (or didn't say).
It wasn't cool that she snooped in your computer. That's seriously not cool. But that doesn't seem to be what you were upset about. Instead, it seemed you were upset by the fact that she was upset. That's not a happy place for you to be. It's not a healthy place. How can either of you be happy when, anything that causes one of you to be upset then leads to a downward spiral of you both being upset that the other is upset? How can any issues be resolved when fights get off the original upsetting thing and devolve into anger over the other being angry?
I'm sorry if some of my comments are harsh here. I really want you to pay attention to the how of what you say, and what that implies about your thought process, your opinions about your girlfriend, and your form of conflict management. I'm hoping that you can see, here, that there are some implicit judgments in your comments that are really destructive--above all else, they're destructive for you. I think, you should look deeply into the way through which you assess situations and the people around you. I think, this is something you likely need to do as an individual, likely in therapy, before you can find true peace and happiness through a relationship.
posted by meese at 9:47 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
I just want to examine little bits of this.
she chose to start a fight...
Choosing is a conscious activity. If someone chose to start a fight, it means that they actively made the decision, "Yes, now is a good time to fight." It means that it was perfectly possible for there to not be a fight -- like she could have, just as easily, made the decision for there to be no fight.
And she chose, in this way. So, the decision was hers. And only hers. What you are doing here is conceptualizing a fight as an active decision on her part to do something to you (which leaves you shocked and speechless). You are blaming her for the fight, where the fight is something consciously chosen and totally avoidable.
Compare your wording to this: "She was very upset, and this led to us getting into a fight." It takes two to tango; it takes two to fight. If every fight starts with you thinking, "There she goes again! Why is she doing this to me!?" you'll never be able to move to conflict resolution.
...over such a futile matter
Do you think she thinks it's futile? Do you think she'd agree to that? But you still express it as obvious, objective fact. You just state that it is futile. What does that imply about her (obvious) disagreement? It implies that you think she's obviously wrong. From the start, you do not give any consideration to her emotions. The fact that you state so simply that it's futile, in light of pretty obvious evidence that she disagrees with this assessment, is a way of invalidating her emotions. It is a way of saying that her opinions, emotions, assessments, and beliefs don't matter.
Here's a different way to say it: "...over an issue which, to me, didn't seem so important." This wording acknowledges your emotions about the subject, while also acknowledging her disagreement.
...as if she considered a silly joke meant to cheer me up...
Why does it matter, here, that the joke was meant to cheer you up? What relation does the purpose of the joke (to cheer you up) have to do with how she feels about it? It sounds here like you think this purpose--cheering you up--should make moot her emotions--being upset about it. In other words, this wording here implies that something being good for you should obviously mean she can't be upset about it.
Here's a different way to say it: "...I only took it as a silly joke, and I don't understand why she feels otherwise."
...more real than the poor emotional state she kicked me into...
What should she have done? It sounds, here, like you are blaming her for you feeling bad. She is upset, she informs you about why she is upset, you then get mad at her for making you upset by telling you she is upset. This makes it sound like she should have just stayed quiet--like, given that you finding out she's unhappy makes you unhappy means that she owes it to you to either always be happy or at least always act like she's happy. In essence, what you're saying is, "She should have known better than make me unhappy by being unhappy, herself!"
There's no different way to state this. There's no way to get around it: you're holding her accountable for your emotions. You're making her be responsible for always ensuring that you're happy, even when keeping you happy is at odds with her own emotional well-being. That's not good for you.
...and for which she showed neither empathy nor regret.
I don't understand this. Did she show no empathy or regret about the fact that you were unhappy? Well... Why should she have? You were unhappy because she was upset, and you hadn't addressed the fact that she was upset. It sounds like you want her to say, "I'm really sorry that me being mad at you is making you unhappy." But that's not a healthy thing for a person to say. That's not a healthy attitude for a person to take. When someone actively does something that hurts you, it's appropriate for them to apologize and regret it; when someone makes you unhappy merely by responding to something that has been done to them, then they haven't really done anything that requires apologizing. Who did the sucky thing here? Your friend did, by making a really disgusting, inappropriate, misogynistic 'joke' (or, at least, that's my opinion of it). And maybe you, by not calling out how inappropriate it was. But who is feeling your wrath? She is, because she was hurt by what you and your friend said (or didn't say).
It wasn't cool that she snooped in your computer. That's seriously not cool. But that doesn't seem to be what you were upset about. Instead, it seemed you were upset by the fact that she was upset. That's not a happy place for you to be. It's not a healthy place. How can either of you be happy when, anything that causes one of you to be upset then leads to a downward spiral of you both being upset that the other is upset? How can any issues be resolved when fights get off the original upsetting thing and devolve into anger over the other being angry?
I'm sorry if some of my comments are harsh here. I really want you to pay attention to the how of what you say, and what that implies about your thought process, your opinions about your girlfriend, and your form of conflict management. I'm hoping that you can see, here, that there are some implicit judgments in your comments that are really destructive--above all else, they're destructive for you. I think, you should look deeply into the way through which you assess situations and the people around you. I think, this is something you likely need to do as an individual, likely in therapy, before you can find true peace and happiness through a relationship.
posted by meese at 9:47 PM on December 6, 2011 [13 favorites]
Third, having lost your best friend and your former girlfriend was a decision you made, and should not affect your decision now to stay or leave this relationship. Believing the myth of sunk cost-- the idea that you've already invested so much/lost so much for this relationship, so you have to keep going-- won't actually bring back those friends or fix your current relationship. You should separate your history from your present, in this regard.
This. Also the fact that you don't know whether to believe her about her sexual abuse means you should break up with her. If she's lying, why would you want to be with someone who would tell such a heinous lie? If she's telling the truth and you're discounting it, you're continuing the cycle of abuse and are a horrible boyfriend for her.
I do agree with you that it was ridiculous that she snooped through all your stuff and, worse, decided to attack you for something your friend said instead of feeling bad that you had been hurt over an argument with her.
But basically, it just doesn't sound like you two are good for each other or are compatible, but are just trying to cling on because you feel you have to justify how the relationship started. I hate to break it to you but that ship has sailed, my friend, and there's nothing you can do, including staying in a bad relationship, to make up for it.
posted by hazyjane at 1:12 AM on December 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
This. Also the fact that you don't know whether to believe her about her sexual abuse means you should break up with her. If she's lying, why would you want to be with someone who would tell such a heinous lie? If she's telling the truth and you're discounting it, you're continuing the cycle of abuse and are a horrible boyfriend for her.
I do agree with you that it was ridiculous that she snooped through all your stuff and, worse, decided to attack you for something your friend said instead of feeling bad that you had been hurt over an argument with her.
But basically, it just doesn't sound like you two are good for each other or are compatible, but are just trying to cling on because you feel you have to justify how the relationship started. I hate to break it to you but that ship has sailed, my friend, and there's nothing you can do, including staying in a bad relationship, to make up for it.
posted by hazyjane at 1:12 AM on December 7, 2011 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Yes, Hazyjane, the consensus seems to go into this direction. I tend to make a moral issue out of this relationship because of how it started. It does not seems to be the right way to look at it. Still, it sucks to end up where we are.
A little clarification over my "disregard" for her past. My position has always been to try to be supportive, perhaps ineffectively, to encourage her to seek professional advice (including a magistrate), and so it remains to this day. I initially did not doubt these claims of course : no one enters a relationship assuming the other is a manipulative liar, as was pointed out elsewhere. But for a number of reasons, after two years, I find myself wondering whether there's something which is not being told, and I am asking myself questions about that. I never told her that because I felt it was not appropriate, and my position remains : I'll try to give you my support, but in the end you may want to see a professional for the legal issues.
Out of respect for her privacy, I will not discuss this point any longer, as it would imply disclosing more information about her history and my reasons to wonder whether she's telling the whole truth. I mentioned the abuse as I thought it could help understand the trust issues, but it should not becaome a topic in itself. Therefore, please refrain from commenting solely on that.
posted by that_guy at 1:33 AM on December 7, 2011
A little clarification over my "disregard" for her past. My position has always been to try to be supportive, perhaps ineffectively, to encourage her to seek professional advice (including a magistrate), and so it remains to this day. I initially did not doubt these claims of course : no one enters a relationship assuming the other is a manipulative liar, as was pointed out elsewhere. But for a number of reasons, after two years, I find myself wondering whether there's something which is not being told, and I am asking myself questions about that. I never told her that because I felt it was not appropriate, and my position remains : I'll try to give you my support, but in the end you may want to see a professional for the legal issues.
Out of respect for her privacy, I will not discuss this point any longer, as it would imply disclosing more information about her history and my reasons to wonder whether she's telling the whole truth. I mentioned the abuse as I thought it could help understand the trust issues, but it should not becaome a topic in itself. Therefore, please refrain from commenting solely on that.
posted by that_guy at 1:33 AM on December 7, 2011
It boils down to this:
The way I usually try to solve these things is fairly unimaginative I guess. First I try to express how I feel, and point out some observable facts that challenge her opinion. It never seems to do any good. Then I switch to constructive criticism, pointing out the weaknesses of her judgments, and saying I’d accept her criticism if she would hear mine in return. The typical reaction is that we are too different anyway, and that we’d better break up sometime soon. If I get angry and demand to be treated fairly, she shuts down entirely, becomes totally unreachable, and just keeps repeating I should resort to non violent communication, which brings us back to the first step and resets the whole useless process. Usually, a couple of days later, she forgets about the whole thing and turns back into the loving, wonderful girlfriend I’m so fond of.
Let's do some basic grammatical analysis here, focusing on the pronouns and how you use them, in the context of resolving conflict with your partner: I (subject), I (subject), I subject), I (subject), her (object), I (subject), her (object modifier), I (subject), her (object), she (subject, finally, but of a subordinate "if" clause), we (subject in another subordinate clause to a main subject: "the typical reaction"), we (another subordinate what-if clause), I (subject), she (subject... in another "if" clause though this one purports to relate a reality), I (subject in a subordinate clause, for once), and then finally she as her own subject....... tellingly, once she "turns back into the loving, wonderful girlfriend I'm so fond of".
You don't see her as an agent of her own life except as she relates to you, and you only acknowledge her true agency when she behaves the way you want.
And that's just the pronouns.
You never say, "First I try to make sure I've understood her concerns correctly." Nor do you say, "I listen to her." Nor is there any mention of, "I take her feedback into account." Granted, those are, grammatically speaking, still "I" statements, but their verbs (actions) are focused on another person's agency. In your paragraph on how "you" try to solve things (not "we"), all you talk about is challenging, criticising, pointing out weaknesses, and claiming you'd "accept" her criticism if she'd hear yours... but you never say that taking hers seriously is part of your resolution process in the first place. And then you "get angry and demand to be treated fairly." It's no wonder she shuts down. You're treating her like an object that needs to behave according to your specifications in order for you to approve.
That's not a relationship. I concur with other posters who have suggested breaking up and taking time off from dating – completely – in order to think things through on your own.
posted by fraula at 1:42 AM on December 7, 2011 [6 favorites]
The way I usually try to solve these things is fairly unimaginative I guess. First I try to express how I feel, and point out some observable facts that challenge her opinion. It never seems to do any good. Then I switch to constructive criticism, pointing out the weaknesses of her judgments, and saying I’d accept her criticism if she would hear mine in return. The typical reaction is that we are too different anyway, and that we’d better break up sometime soon. If I get angry and demand to be treated fairly, she shuts down entirely, becomes totally unreachable, and just keeps repeating I should resort to non violent communication, which brings us back to the first step and resets the whole useless process. Usually, a couple of days later, she forgets about the whole thing and turns back into the loving, wonderful girlfriend I’m so fond of.
Let's do some basic grammatical analysis here, focusing on the pronouns and how you use them, in the context of resolving conflict with your partner: I (subject), I (subject), I subject), I (subject), her (object), I (subject), her (object modifier), I (subject), her (object), she (subject, finally, but of a subordinate "if" clause), we (subject in another subordinate clause to a main subject: "the typical reaction"), we (another subordinate what-if clause), I (subject), she (subject... in another "if" clause though this one purports to relate a reality), I (subject in a subordinate clause, for once), and then finally she as her own subject....... tellingly, once she "turns back into the loving, wonderful girlfriend I'm so fond of".
You don't see her as an agent of her own life except as she relates to you, and you only acknowledge her true agency when she behaves the way you want.
And that's just the pronouns.
You never say, "First I try to make sure I've understood her concerns correctly." Nor do you say, "I listen to her." Nor is there any mention of, "I take her feedback into account." Granted, those are, grammatically speaking, still "I" statements, but their verbs (actions) are focused on another person's agency. In your paragraph on how "you" try to solve things (not "we"), all you talk about is challenging, criticising, pointing out weaknesses, and claiming you'd "accept" her criticism if she'd hear yours... but you never say that taking hers seriously is part of your resolution process in the first place. And then you "get angry and demand to be treated fairly." It's no wonder she shuts down. You're treating her like an object that needs to behave according to your specifications in order for you to approve.
That's not a relationship. I concur with other posters who have suggested breaking up and taking time off from dating – completely – in order to think things through on your own.
posted by fraula at 1:42 AM on December 7, 2011 [6 favorites]
I apologize for saying that you're continuing the cycle of abuse given your response - it sounds like you've been supportive and that you did believe her in the beginning, but in getting to know her you've begun to doubt her honesty. Sadly without trust and respect, which neither of you seem to have for each other, I just don't see what the point is in dragging this out.
Unlike some other posters I think your girlfriend has acted quite callously and selfishly towards you and hasn't really bothered taking your feelings into account, both because of her lack of maturity and your differing communication styles which mean that to her, as you're not as expressive as an EF type would be, she probably doesn't realize that your feelings run as deep as they do.
I'm really sorry you're going through this as the end to this relationship is going to mean grieving for three lost relationships rather than one (I'm guessing you were never able to properly mourn the loss of your last girlfriend or your best friend). Also as an INTP I'm guessing you're probably not great at expressing your emotions and reaching out to other people who are close to you. I hope you have some other close friends that you can be with at this time, and I also think therapy could be helpful for you. Good luck, and just know the bad feelings won't last forever - you will survive this.
posted by hazyjane at 3:13 AM on December 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Unlike some other posters I think your girlfriend has acted quite callously and selfishly towards you and hasn't really bothered taking your feelings into account, both because of her lack of maturity and your differing communication styles which mean that to her, as you're not as expressive as an EF type would be, she probably doesn't realize that your feelings run as deep as they do.
I'm really sorry you're going through this as the end to this relationship is going to mean grieving for three lost relationships rather than one (I'm guessing you were never able to properly mourn the loss of your last girlfriend or your best friend). Also as an INTP I'm guessing you're probably not great at expressing your emotions and reaching out to other people who are close to you. I hope you have some other close friends that you can be with at this time, and I also think therapy could be helpful for you. Good luck, and just know the bad feelings won't last forever - you will survive this.
posted by hazyjane at 3:13 AM on December 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
You see to really want to work on this relationship. If you are still up for that then I would highly consider asking her"
"Do you feel heard? Do you feel that I listen and appreciate what you have to say?"
I say this because I agree with fraula. I don't see much evidence that you are appreciating what she has to say. To communicate, you don't just have to listen, you also need to try to empathize with her frustration. I don't sense any empathy in your communications with her at all. It seem to be more "I am logically right and your argument has no merit" then "I see that you are really upset. I what to understand why you are hurt and work out a compromise that will make us both feel better."
As an internet stranger, I have no way of knowing whether or not you feel empathy or care enough about her to empathize, but I can say that if you do, you sure as hell aren't communicating it.
posted by Shouraku at 8:20 AM on December 7, 2011
"Do you feel heard? Do you feel that I listen and appreciate what you have to say?"
I say this because I agree with fraula. I don't see much evidence that you are appreciating what she has to say. To communicate, you don't just have to listen, you also need to try to empathize with her frustration. I don't sense any empathy in your communications with her at all. It seem to be more "I am logically right and your argument has no merit" then "I see that you are really upset. I what to understand why you are hurt and work out a compromise that will make us both feel better."
As an internet stranger, I have no way of knowing whether or not you feel empathy or care enough about her to empathize, but I can say that if you do, you sure as hell aren't communicating it.
posted by Shouraku at 8:20 AM on December 7, 2011
Response by poster: Shouraku, thanks for mentioning how difficult it is as an internet stranger to see what's really going on in a relationship.
My post was written while under frustration and anger, and it does not surprise me that it sounds dismissive. After all, I AM complaining in this post, which never meant to be objective (how can I be objective if I'm angry, anxious, etc etc ?).
I thought it would be more or less implied that if you are in a relationship you consider serious, you do try to appreciate, consider and listen to what the partner says, not even mentioning respect him/her. So I did not stress that point. Besides, how can I measure my own empathy or consideration for her in a way that I can objectively report to you guys ?? Can I just say I believe I do have a certain empathy ? Is that credible, how can it be verified by an internet stranger ? The best I can say, is that her and I have talked about how we talk, and she praised the fact that I'm a skilled listener (her words, not mine).
So, if we can talk just like people who like each other and mean no harm, then what's happening when we fight in the ways described above ? How come I feel rejected ? How come she feels threatened ? And why can't we get over that ? The post described my point of view on what seems to be difficult-to-re-conciliate split between us, on certain issues, and at some points.
At last, I do give consideration to what she says. To what anyone says, including you guys, including the unpleasant stuff. But, if you would judge me now on something you have no idea about because we never raised the topic, for example what color I prefer, my political opinions etc, then how can I take your opinion seriously ? The truth is, we never talked about my values or spiritual life. We did talk about hers. Maybe that's where my feeling of being judged unfairly comes from, eh ?
posted by that_guy at 8:36 AM on December 7, 2011
My post was written while under frustration and anger, and it does not surprise me that it sounds dismissive. After all, I AM complaining in this post, which never meant to be objective (how can I be objective if I'm angry, anxious, etc etc ?).
I thought it would be more or less implied that if you are in a relationship you consider serious, you do try to appreciate, consider and listen to what the partner says, not even mentioning respect him/her. So I did not stress that point. Besides, how can I measure my own empathy or consideration for her in a way that I can objectively report to you guys ?? Can I just say I believe I do have a certain empathy ? Is that credible, how can it be verified by an internet stranger ? The best I can say, is that her and I have talked about how we talk, and she praised the fact that I'm a skilled listener (her words, not mine).
So, if we can talk just like people who like each other and mean no harm, then what's happening when we fight in the ways described above ? How come I feel rejected ? How come she feels threatened ? And why can't we get over that ? The post described my point of view on what seems to be difficult-to-re-conciliate split between us, on certain issues, and at some points.
At last, I do give consideration to what she says. To what anyone says, including you guys, including the unpleasant stuff. But, if you would judge me now on something you have no idea about because we never raised the topic, for example what color I prefer, my political opinions etc, then how can I take your opinion seriously ? The truth is, we never talked about my values or spiritual life. We did talk about hers. Maybe that's where my feeling of being judged unfairly comes from, eh ?
posted by that_guy at 8:36 AM on December 7, 2011
A lot of the other posters have addressed other aspects of your post. I think maybe you should read the article on Wikipedia on "loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy."
It seems like you're dismissing the points brought up by the Mefites you asked for help like your post dismissed your girlfriend's concerns.
With the internet, and asking random strangers to look at your situation, you invite a lot of reading-between-the-lines and for viewpoints filtered through the reader's personal background and viewpoints. It's basically like asking people to judge how a house is kept up by inviting strangers into your bedroom via the window. So, if you didn't bother to write it when you weren't angry (i.e. clean up your bedroom), then don't be surprised when the assumption is your whole house is a mess.
To address a question in your most recent update, like other posters mentioned, each person brings baggage to interpersonal communication; part of growing together is learning each others' language. You feel rejected because some thing she says or how she says it triggers you. Without a meta-discussion about how you discuss things, you'll never move past it.
However, from your telling of it, the Four Horsemen of Relationship Apocalypse have crept in: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling.
posted by bookdragoness at 9:11 AM on December 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
It seems like you're dismissing the points brought up by the Mefites you asked for help like your post dismissed your girlfriend's concerns.
With the internet, and asking random strangers to look at your situation, you invite a lot of reading-between-the-lines and for viewpoints filtered through the reader's personal background and viewpoints. It's basically like asking people to judge how a house is kept up by inviting strangers into your bedroom via the window. So, if you didn't bother to write it when you weren't angry (i.e. clean up your bedroom), then don't be surprised when the assumption is your whole house is a mess.
To address a question in your most recent update, like other posters mentioned, each person brings baggage to interpersonal communication; part of growing together is learning each others' language. You feel rejected because some thing she says or how she says it triggers you. Without a meta-discussion about how you discuss things, you'll never move past it.
However, from your telling of it, the Four Horsemen of Relationship Apocalypse have crept in: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling.
posted by bookdragoness at 9:11 AM on December 7, 2011 [3 favorites]
People here post because they want to help you with your stated issues, not to upset you or cause you to have to defend yourself.
But, if you would judge me now on something you have no idea about because we never raised the topic, for example what color I prefer, my political opinions etc, then how can I take your opinion seriously ? The truth is, we never talked about my values or spiritual life. We did talk about hers. Maybe that's where my feeling of being judged unfairly comes from, eh ?
You asked for help and many kind strangers are taking their time to assist you in the best way they know how. "how can I take your opinion seriously ?" is not a very kind thing to say to people who have your best interests at heart and are attempting to do you a favor by answering your request for help.
We do want to help you, and I hope that at least some of the advice here did that.
posted by Shouraku at 9:12 AM on December 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
But, if you would judge me now on something you have no idea about because we never raised the topic, for example what color I prefer, my political opinions etc, then how can I take your opinion seriously ? The truth is, we never talked about my values or spiritual life. We did talk about hers. Maybe that's where my feeling of being judged unfairly comes from, eh ?
You asked for help and many kind strangers are taking their time to assist you in the best way they know how. "how can I take your opinion seriously ?" is not a very kind thing to say to people who have your best interests at heart and are attempting to do you a favor by answering your request for help.
We do want to help you, and I hope that at least some of the advice here did that.
posted by Shouraku at 9:12 AM on December 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Dear contributors,
I do want to thank you for your comments. Some post were really great, and overall this is a very helpful conversation, which I do appreciate. That's what I heard Mefi was about before I joined, and it does not disappoint. So, again, thanks, I've been meaning to say that for a while. Given how long my post was, I really did not expect many comments, and I'm very glad about it. It feels better just to talk about all this.
I did not express myself clearly on one thing though. I do not dismiss the points brought up by the mefites, I apologize if I gave that impression. I am just pointing out to the fact that, just like I would not presume of your own political opinions, values, etc, without first talking about it, I do not like it when questionable statements (namely, you have no moral values) are made a bit too...quickly. This is not a criticism against contributors to the discussion, of course; I just feel it's part of a fair relationship.
posted by that_guy at 9:21 AM on December 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
I do want to thank you for your comments. Some post were really great, and overall this is a very helpful conversation, which I do appreciate. That's what I heard Mefi was about before I joined, and it does not disappoint. So, again, thanks, I've been meaning to say that for a while. Given how long my post was, I really did not expect many comments, and I'm very glad about it. It feels better just to talk about all this.
I did not express myself clearly on one thing though. I do not dismiss the points brought up by the mefites, I apologize if I gave that impression. I am just pointing out to the fact that, just like I would not presume of your own political opinions, values, etc, without first talking about it, I do not like it when questionable statements (namely, you have no moral values) are made a bit too...quickly. This is not a criticism against contributors to the discussion, of course; I just feel it's part of a fair relationship.
posted by that_guy at 9:21 AM on December 7, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by that_guy at 4:44 PM on December 6, 2011