21st Century Fox?

June 17, 2005 1:23 PM

A friend passed along "alt.fast.seduction" and as I was reading through the FAQ (it reeked of sleaze), one thing I kept coming across was how bad it was to buy a girl a drink. Is this true? I grew around an older generation (60+) who were definitely from another era and wouldn't even consider making a woman pay. I've instinctively always bought drinks if I was out with a girl (romantic or not). I haven't received any flak from it. Am I being totally anachronistic or at worst misogynist? Or does it just come across as schmuck (as this guide repeatedly states)?

It's absolutely no financial burden to me -- it seems impolite to go to the bar and grab two drinks then ask for money from the girl, not exactly classy. Should I stop opening doors and walking on the left side too? Has my WASP training no relevance?

NB: I have intention of being the ultimate asshole seducer the guide states, this just brought a paticular issue to my attention by the repeated and constant warnings.

posted by geoff. to society & culture (30 comments total)

Alt.fast.seduction? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease, come on.

Keep on doing what you do. Nobody is turned off by good manners, as your experience has shown.

(General rule: Real life experience trumps internet forwards.)
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:29 PM on June 17, 2005 [1 favorite]

Ack. That newsgroup and the associated sites just suck. There's a guy that works downstairs from me that swears by it, but he's 99.99% talk, has been divorced twice, and rarely has a repeat date. He's also the guy that would buy a swedish penis pump from an email spam ad.

I always buy drinks. I've never been accused of being a pushover, it's gotten me laid several times. I also always mind my manners about opening doors, etc. All the girls I've dated have appreciated it and have let me know they appreciated it. (in various ways. *wink*) I think they key is to make the manners seem like they're part of what you do every day, not something special that you're putting on for them. In general, the most attractive thing I've found to do is to be myself, make and hold eye contact, be outspoken and not back down when I make a point in a conversation unless I'm obviously wrong, then apologize once and let it drop. Generally, be a man. All of the 'seduction' tips I've ever seen have come off as slimy and there are VERY few guys that can pull them off... and even then, they usually get nicknames like "Cheesy."
posted by SpecialK at 1:32 PM on June 17, 2005

I think geography matters in this case. Here in Chicago I've noticed that South Side boys buy girls drinks. North Side boys don't. (Gross overgeneralization, I know.) And that's just within one city; I imagine it differs across the country.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable if a guy buys my drinks because I'm afraid he thinks I'm expecting it. If I make it clear that I'm perfectly willing to buy my own drinks and he still wants to pay... I'm learning to accept that.

No, it doesn't make you a schmuck.
posted by INTPLibrarian at 1:33 PM on June 17, 2005

Do you do gentlemanly (for the lack of a better word) things, such as holding doors and buying a lady a drink, because you think this will benefit you, or because you think it's the appropriate way to conduct yourself?

And really, would you consider someone a schmuck for buying you a drink? What kind of person would have that attitude, and would you really want to date them? I buy my male friends drinks, and, like them, if a woman wants she is perfectly able to buy the next round.
posted by Doug at 1:37 PM on June 17, 2005

Doug has a good point. I buy drinks because it's what I do, and I look at a girl kind of weird if she won't let me. With girls that are kind of inexperienced at dating, I have to say, "Uh, I'm not expecting anything, this is just the way my momma brought me up..." or just shrug and put my wallet away, but either injects an awkward moment in.
posted by SpecialK at 1:38 PM on June 17, 2005

I think buying the first round for your date is a nice move--and a good test. If she doesn't say, "I've got your next one," leave her at the bar!
posted by hamster at 1:41 PM on June 17, 2005

If someone buys you a drink it means you have to bang them? That's craziness! I always thought it was the intro to courtship, and if she refused that meant you definitely weren't going anywhere.
posted by schroedinger at 1:46 PM on June 17, 2005

Sheesh, why should a man have to invest $7 just to begin the courtship?
posted by eas98 at 1:57 PM on June 17, 2005

It depends on the girl, your attitude, and the phase of the moon. I've known several women who do resent it or quietly snicker. I actually had one tell me, "I can afford my own drinks, thank you, buy me a car instead." But then with others if you don't buy drink, they'll will silently note it and then quietly hate you for all eternity and blab to everybody about how cheap you are. Luckily, it's not that hard to tell and when in doubt, you're probably better off asking her.. Also note that offering to buy drinks before you've gotten to known her a little bit, even a few minutes of chitchat, has always been considered skeezy. It's cliche at best and a rather pathetic mechanism to flaunt your power/income/manliness at worst.
posted by nixerman at 1:58 PM on June 17, 2005

Yeah, are they talking about going with a date into a bar and *then* not buying her drinks, or about approaching an unknown woman while already in the bar?

I would find it weird if a date didn't pay for the entire round (I do trade off rounds, though). But I would also find it weird, and creepy, if an unknown guy came up to me at a bar with a drink for me. The creepiness goes down the longer the unknown guy and I had talked before he bought the drink, however.
posted by occhiblu at 2:01 PM on June 17, 2005

(There's also fear of tampering when accepting drinks from strange men, FWIW.)
posted by occhiblu at 2:01 PM on June 17, 2005

To buy a drink as a means of introduction is lame. To buy a drink for a date or someone you've already gotten to know a little is a nice gesture.
posted by cali at 2:11 PM on June 17, 2005

Sheesh, why should a man have to invest $7 just to begin the courtship?

As opposed to what?

INTPLibrarian: if by "south side boys" you mean UofC students, it's because we're afraid you're going to sober up and realize that we're total fucking dorks.
posted by felix betachat at 2:14 PM on June 17, 2005

I think the idea is that you're paying for their attention, which is not really a good way to start a conversation.
I've had good luck having women buy ME a drink for starters. Sure I feel cheap, but only for a minute.
posted by Floydd at 2:33 PM on June 17, 2005

Hell, I buy everybody drinks, including the people down the bar to whom I haven't even once talked.
posted by mischief at 2:43 PM on June 17, 2005

Everybody has different expectations and upbringings, along with different attitudes toward evolving gender roles. As such, you're never going to please anyone.

But for what it's worth, as a "postmodern" believer in gender equality, my opinion is this: assuming I'm not already intimately acquainted with someone, I prefer not to spend any more money on a romantic interest of the opposite gender than I would for a friend of the same gender. Will I buy rounds? Sure. Will I buy every round? Only if it's a birthday or I am really treating someone. Will I offer to buy drinks for a stranger? Never. Will I consider buying drinks for someone after already initiating a pleasant and appropriately long conversation? Sure.

It's no longer the 50s, and there is no convention for any of these small social decisions. As such, no matter what your preferences, you will at the very least self-segregate and perhaps even alienate someone who isn't so likeminded. The idea of course, is that you're better off without 'em. In my personal case, I don't want to waste any of my time on a stranger who absolutely requires being paid for their time. I prefer the girl who's uncomfortable with idea of being put on pedestals. But some of my beliefs depend on the fact that I'm living in the heart of LA, where a drink can run you upwards of $12, and the population is the most shallow, materialistic group of people I've ever encountered. Significant social filtering is a must.
posted by drpynchon at 2:57 PM on June 17, 2005

I have a bad habit of being loose with my wallet. But I've only ever attempted to buy an unknown woman a drink once. It failed miserably and I won't ever do it again.

On the other hand, I regularly buy rounds for dates, friends, even people I've just met. It's part of being friendly.

Of course now that I've stopped drinking I'm much less likely to do so.
posted by FlamingBore at 3:10 PM on June 17, 2005

In one of his autobiographies, Richard Feynman described how he learned to pick up girls in bars. At first, he though he was supposed to buy them drinks (or anything they want really), and he was perplexed when the girls always ended up going home with someone else. His somewhat-sleazy friend clued him in - if you want to take a girl home, don't buy her ANYTHING. That's just the way it is. Surprisingly, it worked. Of course, this was a long time ago.

Now? It's courteous to offer to pay for drinks no matter who you're out with. It's also courteous to decline or to alternate. So there.
posted by muddgirl at 3:11 PM on June 17, 2005

I think it can be nice to be treated to a few drinks when I'm out with a guy. But I also enjoy buying my own drinks some of the time, and buying him drinks some of the time. While it's nice to be treated, it's also nice to be able to return the favour.

The guys who always insisted that they had to pay and I couldn't buy them anything ever I found really annoying. It's like denying my independence and power. It's paternal. Fuck that, I'm an independant woman, I don't need you to buy me shit.

So my opinion is that balance is important.
posted by raedyn at 3:40 PM on June 17, 2005

Something to be aware of, though:

While I wouldn't mind a guy I'm on a date with paying for my drink, I will not accept it from out of his hands unless I know him really well. So if we go up to the bar and I watch the barkeep pour my drink, and it is handed directly to me, great. But if you walk up to me with it in your hand, I'm not taking the risk that you might have slipped something into.
posted by raedyn at 3:43 PM on June 17, 2005

I pay. I open doors. Et cetera. Forget fads. Old school works.
posted by cribcage at 3:47 PM on June 17, 2005

The theory behind this, as far as I can tell, is that your date will quickly size you up as either "long-term relationship" material or as a, ahem, "fun friend". If you take the role of "provider", you're more likely to be slotted in the long-term category, which, if you're reading alt.seduction.fast, may not be your preference.

Me, I'm socially inept, I have no clue. But I wish I could flaunt my wealth and not come off as skeezy. :(
posted by trevyn at 4:12 PM on June 17, 2005

And this is why we buy rounds in the UK. My round: I buy the drinks. Her round: she buys the drinks. Easy.

If she's one of these women who thinks I should be buying her drinks all night I have to ditch her, because I really dislike sexists and I certainly wouldn't want to be involved with one.
posted by Decani at 6:33 PM on June 17, 2005

To sum up: drinks from dates, classy, sweet. Drinks from strangers: creepy, sleazy, potentially laced with roofies. That's one lady's opinion at least.
posted by slimslowslider at 9:35 PM on June 17, 2005

Goddamn, who knew buying a fucking drink was such a morass of social minutiae?

This thread has put me off ever attempting to date again. Fuck women, I'm getting a cat.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 9:49 PM on June 17, 2005

IshmaelGraves: It didn't used to be a morass of social minutae, it used to be good manners. I'll leave it up to you who to thank.
posted by SpecialK at 12:15 AM on June 18, 2005

Courtship is a game. It is also somewhat of a selection filter.

If you follow the advice of alt.fast.seduction i.e. act like a cocky asshole and treat women like shit, you will end up with insecure, needy girls who will put up with it. It's a numbers game but eventually they will find you.

If you treat women like gold, you'll end up with a narcissistic diva who treats you like shit.

Those are the pessimistic extremes -- in between there's a whole spectrum of compromises that allow people to treat each other as they want and deserve, and often find rewarding love.
posted by randomstriker at 4:49 AM on June 18, 2005

All this business about "who buys what," and "what does it mean when..?" it's all a lot of superstitious horseshit. Jesus people, don't make drinking complicated, just relax and have some fun. If someone buys you a drink, offer to buy the next round, and don't try to affix any meaning to any of it. Hey, you just might end up having a good time for once.
posted by lilboo at 7:20 AM on June 18, 2005

SpecialK, give it up. My grandmother had exacting rules about how large a gift her daughters could accept at what stage of a relationship. This was pre-Second Wave feminism. My grandmother had this rule because of the idea that men/boys gave women/girls gifts to create an obligation, which is the exact same reason people here are suggesting that getting a drink from a stranger is weird/sleazy.

This is, to my anthropological mind, a question about gift-giving. In gift giving, there are three "obligations" between (in this case) 2 people: the obligation to give, to receive, and to reciprocate. If you maintain an awareness that a gift creates a social obligation (or the feeling of one, even if it isn't your intention) on the part of the receiver, it is easy to interpret the discomfort of a stranger or relatively new aquaintance on the presentation of a gift. (Note: between close friends and family the dynamics of gift giving are different, especially at a small scale like a drink).

So, if you offer a person a drink, you are putting them in a reciprocal relationship with yourself. To navigate this in dating and casual friendship, be courteous if the person turns you down: they aren't ready to accept the obligation to reciprocate, or aren't sure what you might expect as reciprocation. If you think it's the latter, you can set their mind at ease by defining the reciprocation--"You can buy me a drink next round/next time"--or just let it go until the person knows you and your intentions better.

If the person accepts, be willing to receive their reciprocation in the form that they chose (often, a round on their bill). By accepting their reciprocation, you are allowing them to participate in the definition of the terms of your relationship, which shows respect and confidence on your part. If you try to control how they reciprocate, particularly by refusing to accept (even if you never wanted anything in return) you have denied the person's attempt to fufill their social obligaton and left them feeling as though they have a continued obligation to you. This unfufilled obligation is why women tell their daughters that if a man buys all the drinks, he is just trying to get them into bed.
posted by carmen at 7:46 AM on June 18, 2005

I don't think it's misogynistic at all, not in the sense that a guy trying would turn me off right off the bat, but personally when a guy asks I politely tell him I'll handle it. I just don't feel comfortable with the possibility he thinks I then owe him anything and the control aspect of it...one never knows what a stranger might be thinking. But it's not some dealbreaker, a guy's attempt to, or anything.
posted by ifjuly at 11:05 AM on June 18, 2005