How readable is A Dance with Dragons?
November 8, 2011 4:20 AM Subscribe
I am going to be bored by A Dance with Dragons, aren't I?
I've read the previous books in Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series and found A Feast for Crows very lacking in pace. At the end of it I was more skimming than actually reading because it had become so boring. Is A Dance with Dragons equally bad?
I've read the previous books in Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series and found A Feast for Crows very lacking in pace. At the end of it I was more skimming than actually reading because it had become so boring. Is A Dance with Dragons equally bad?
Dany, Jon Snow and Tyrion return. If they're your favorites you'll enjoy this book more.
I thought Feast was a waste when I read it for the first time. I liked it much more when I read it for the second or third time.
posted by harlan at 4:34 AM on November 8, 2011
I thought Feast was a waste when I read it for the first time. I liked it much more when I read it for the second or third time.
posted by harlan at 4:34 AM on November 8, 2011
Yes. I read four of these. I don't know why. I'm a masochist. I thought something would happen. It was years ago and I've blocked most of the memories. Except, a 500 year old wall that no one has passed in all that time? Can't suspend disbelief. Aaarrgghh.
To each their own book.
You do not have to finish a bad series. You do not have to finish a bad book.
posted by mearls at 4:36 AM on November 8, 2011 [8 favorites]
To each their own book.
You do not have to finish a bad series. You do not have to finish a bad book.
posted by mearls at 4:36 AM on November 8, 2011 [8 favorites]
Agreed that AFFC deserves a re-read, preferably before you read A Dance With Dragons, as there are lots of details that mesh together between the two books.
I liked both, though many of the characters covered in AFFC are personal faves, and YMMV. I felt that overall, ADWD was very good, though readers expecting lots of overarching questions to be resolved will be disappointed - many answers are hinted at or moved towards, but new Qs are introduced, too...and no real answers given.
One note: even in comparison to the other books, ADWD is graphically gory and fairly grim. This upset a few people and has been mentioned in previous AskMeFI threads about the book.
posted by Wylla at 4:39 AM on November 8, 2011
I liked both, though many of the characters covered in AFFC are personal faves, and YMMV. I felt that overall, ADWD was very good, though readers expecting lots of overarching questions to be resolved will be disappointed - many answers are hinted at or moved towards, but new Qs are introduced, too...and no real answers given.
One note: even in comparison to the other books, ADWD is graphically gory and fairly grim. This upset a few people and has been mentioned in previous AskMeFI threads about the book.
posted by Wylla at 4:39 AM on November 8, 2011
Mearls - the wall in this particular series is implausibly big and old, but has gates in it, with roads leading to the gates. Plus, boats can and do go around the edges. I think the wall you remember no one getting past is in another book.
nkknkk - this AskMefi has covered this exact question in detail, with lots of people chiming in as to why they did or didn't like the book.
posted by Wylla at 4:44 AM on November 8, 2011
nkknkk - this AskMefi has covered this exact question in detail, with lots of people chiming in as to why they did or didn't like the book.
posted by Wylla at 4:44 AM on November 8, 2011
I think so. A large part of the book is Across The Narrow Sea, which to me signifies boring. New POV characters are introduced but they didn't gel with me. To me, the best parts were Jon Snow and the Onion Knight (and the latter mostly because of my fondness for the character).
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:45 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:45 AM on November 8, 2011
Here's what George R.R. Martin has to say about it (from the Wikipedia article):
"By May 2005, A Feast for Crows had become longer than A Storm of Swords (the manuscript for which had been 1521 pages) and Martin's publishers said they could not publish the book in one volume.[16] They suggested splitting the book in two and releasing the volumes as A Feast for Crows, Volume I and A Feast for Crows, Volume II, but Martin was unhappy with this idea. After discussing the matter with his publishers and his friend and fellow writer Daniel Abraham, Martin decided to split the book by character and location instead. The published A Feast for Crows thus contained all of the characters in the South of the Seven Kingdoms, while A Dance with Dragons contains the characters in the North, the Free Cities and in Slaver's Bay. Martin said this move would likely require the series to have seven volumes, recognizing that "you [the fans] may be disappointed, especially when you buy A Feast for Crows and discover that your favorite character does not appear, but given the realities I think this was the best solution... and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that these two parallel novels, when taken together, will actually tell the story better than one big book."
FWIW, I say give ADWD a shot. Dany, Jon, and Tyrion return!
posted by pecanpies at 4:46 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
"By May 2005, A Feast for Crows had become longer than A Storm of Swords (the manuscript for which had been 1521 pages) and Martin's publishers said they could not publish the book in one volume.[16] They suggested splitting the book in two and releasing the volumes as A Feast for Crows, Volume I and A Feast for Crows, Volume II, but Martin was unhappy with this idea. After discussing the matter with his publishers and his friend and fellow writer Daniel Abraham, Martin decided to split the book by character and location instead. The published A Feast for Crows thus contained all of the characters in the South of the Seven Kingdoms, while A Dance with Dragons contains the characters in the North, the Free Cities and in Slaver's Bay. Martin said this move would likely require the series to have seven volumes, recognizing that "you [the fans] may be disappointed, especially when you buy A Feast for Crows and discover that your favorite character does not appear, but given the realities I think this was the best solution... and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that these two parallel novels, when taken together, will actually tell the story better than one big book."
FWIW, I say give ADWD a shot. Dany, Jon, and Tyrion return!
posted by pecanpies at 4:46 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's slow until the moment that someone from the publisher kicked down GRRM's door, grabbed him by the lapels, and shouted "THERE IS AN HBO SHOW BASED ON YOUR BOOKS. YOU NEED TO WRITE MORE ABOUT THE CHARACTERS PEOPLE ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT!" The then kicked all the Wild Cards stuff off the desk and set an editor equipped with a whip made of briarthorn there in its place. GRRM protested, pointing out that he's endured years of fan lashings, so he could take a weedy editor, no problem. So a compromise was reached - he could keep the sprawling directionless travel chapters provided that, by the end of the book, everyone was in position to GET THE SHIT REAL, which I think he largely accomplished.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:47 AM on November 8, 2011 [13 favorites]
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:47 AM on November 8, 2011 [13 favorites]
Yeah it's boring as shit. It goes like this.
1. Millions of pages of main characters drifting along aimlessly, passively, stupidly, and often acting in ways that are out of character.
2. Cliffhangers
posted by fleacircus at 4:49 AM on November 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
1. Millions of pages of main characters drifting along aimlessly, passively, stupidly, and often acting in ways that are out of character.
2. Cliffhangers
posted by fleacircus at 4:49 AM on November 8, 2011 [7 favorites]
I forgot 1.5: needlessly gross.
posted by fleacircus at 4:57 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 4:57 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Judging by the previous thread that Wylla links to and your responses, I think I'll wait a while before taking on A Dance with Dragons. Right now it feels like I would be reading it because I've already invested so much in the series, and that doesn't strike me as being a good reason to read stuff.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:01 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by Foci for Analysis at 5:01 AM on November 8, 2011
I've said this in the other nearly-identical thread, but there are only a few real "cliffhangers", most involving new characters/issues that are real surprises. Most of the 'big mysteries' at the end of the book are largely solved within the book itself...so you're left knowing that x problem is going to be resolved, with a mystery around how it will get to the pre-implied resolution. Re-reading AFFC ahead of ADWD helps in this regard.
Agree with fleacircus's comment, though I don't agree that the gore is needless - I didn't mind it because it served a purpose, but there's a LOT of it, even in comparison with earlier books in the series (which were not short on physical and sexual violence).
All that said, just start the book. If you hate it, don't finish it. As several people have pointed out, there is no law compelling you to abide by a vote on Metafilter or to finish a book you're not enjoying!
posted by Wylla at 5:03 AM on November 8, 2011
Agree with fleacircus's comment, though I don't agree that the gore is needless - I didn't mind it because it served a purpose, but there's a LOT of it, even in comparison with earlier books in the series (which were not short on physical and sexual violence).
All that said, just start the book. If you hate it, don't finish it. As several people have pointed out, there is no law compelling you to abide by a vote on Metafilter or to finish a book you're not enjoying!
posted by Wylla at 5:03 AM on November 8, 2011
Argh - split-second too early to see your post. Sorry, Foci for Analysis!
posted by Wylla at 5:03 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by Wylla at 5:03 AM on November 8, 2011
I'm surprised at the responses! FFC was definitely dull, but I thought DWD was one of the better books of the series. ymmv, I suppose.
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 5:37 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Tooty McTootsalot at 5:37 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
DWD is on par with COK. GOT is better. SOS is phenomenal. FFC is really the dregs of the series. At least, that's how it shook out for me.
posted by bfranklin at 5:58 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by bfranklin at 5:58 AM on November 8, 2011
Finished it last night. It's a bit of a schlog. If you like politics you will probably think it's OK. If you prefer action, not so much. On the other hand, there's a certain integrity to periods of "and this and this and this happened" before you get to the good part. Because life is like that. How DID person E get enough experience to do XY&Z well later is kind of important, for all most authors skip over it, as is clearing the decks of any person insufficiently clever or lucky to make it to the final smackdown is helpful too. There's a lot of trainwrecks in progress & a lot of people who need a good run-up to get to their plans. I'd be kind of ticked if the author just said, well XYZ died, & btw here's Danaerys again, magically all grown up. Wouldn't you? BTW, can anyone tell me what the name of the next book is so I can reserve it at the library? It is out, right?
posted by Ys at 6:03 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by Ys at 6:03 AM on November 8, 2011
Uh, well FFC has some of the biggest reveals in the series, even if plot-wise it's slow... but to answer your question DWD is a lot faster paced with more significant events going on, Dany's a bit slow but nothing intolerable
posted by MangyCarface at 6:09 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by MangyCarface at 6:09 AM on November 8, 2011
Ys: "the next book...is out, right?"
Funniest thing I've read all day. The publication date of "Dem Dancin' Dragons" was pushed back at least four times. I wouldn't expect the next book before at least 2015, unless GRRMartin wises up and hires a ghostwriter.
posted by themanwho at 6:18 AM on November 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
Funniest thing I've read all day. The publication date of "Dem Dancin' Dragons" was pushed back at least four times. I wouldn't expect the next book before at least 2015, unless GRRMartin wises up and hires a ghostwriter.
posted by themanwho at 6:18 AM on November 8, 2011 [3 favorites]
I read Feast for Crows, and thought it wasn't up to the level of his previous books. Was going to buy Dance with Dragons, but read the reviews on Amazon and saw that most people thought it was too long and drawn out, concentrating on sub-sub plots, etc.
Since this is what I didn't like about Feast for Crows, I haven't bought Dance yet, and won't read it or any more Martin unless he turns the series around. I hate to say it, but I think it's an unavoidable conclusion that fame and success have significantly hurt him as a writer.
He takes a long time to write mediocre books these days, whereas previously he wrote good books in a much shorter period. Sad but true.
posted by zachawry at 6:32 AM on November 8, 2011
Since this is what I didn't like about Feast for Crows, I haven't bought Dance yet, and won't read it or any more Martin unless he turns the series around. I hate to say it, but I think it's an unavoidable conclusion that fame and success have significantly hurt him as a writer.
He takes a long time to write mediocre books these days, whereas previously he wrote good books in a much shorter period. Sad but true.
posted by zachawry at 6:32 AM on November 8, 2011
I loved it. I also enjoyed the previous book. The naysayers have good points, but they are overlookable if you like the Fire & Ice world as much as I do.
posted by Aquaman at 6:34 AM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Aquaman at 6:34 AM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
GRRM has always been a slow writer - ACOK (partially finsihed when AGOT came out) was also delayed to the point that Amaon.com had a standard form letter for pestering fans. Subsequent books have had increasing delays, so no change there. The most recent 2 were the worst, and GRRM has said that he had issues with working out timelines and other details. At one point, he apparently trashed and re-wrote a large section of the AFFC to eliminate the flashback structure he'd planned on, and at another point he apparently had to re-work a large section of ADWD to fix timeline problems after he split the books.
posted by Wylla at 7:13 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by Wylla at 7:13 AM on November 8, 2011
To your specific question: ADWD is very readable – Martin's still a terrific prose stylist and creates interesting characters with vivid histories who get into thrilling situations and speak entertaining dialogue.
But he creates so many of them! If your problem with the series is that Martin seems to be devoting a lot of time to whole groups of new characters that are geographically and motivationally remote from the triangular dynamic between King's Landing, the Wall, and the East that the first book set up, ADWD will not solve your problem.
On the other hand, if what you like about the series is the way in which it confounds fantasy cliches, setting up the royal houses of Westeros to struggle for power at King's Landing while letting the reader know that the greater "existential" threats from the north and the east make that struggle pretty pointless – then maybe you'll like having those threats also marginalized and diffused.
posted by nicwolff at 7:16 AM on November 8, 2011
But he creates so many of them! If your problem with the series is that Martin seems to be devoting a lot of time to whole groups of new characters that are geographically and motivationally remote from the triangular dynamic between King's Landing, the Wall, and the East that the first book set up, ADWD will not solve your problem.
On the other hand, if what you like about the series is the way in which it confounds fantasy cliches, setting up the royal houses of Westeros to struggle for power at King's Landing while letting the reader know that the greater "existential" threats from the north and the east make that struggle pretty pointless – then maybe you'll like having those threats also marginalized and diffused.
posted by nicwolff at 7:16 AM on November 8, 2011
The fourth and fifth book bored me to no end. I could barely finish reading both, but had invested so much time to the series.
My brothers on the third book now and I pity him having to read the next two.
Book 1-3 are the best books!
posted by Sweetmag at 7:44 AM on November 8, 2011
My brothers on the third book now and I pity him having to read the next two.
Book 1-3 are the best books!
posted by Sweetmag at 7:44 AM on November 8, 2011
I actually liked AFFC more than ADWD, though they both pale considerably to the first three books. I felt like in AFFC things were happening, even if those things were with characters I didn't enjoy all that much. I was excited to see the return of some of my faves in ADWD, but very disappointed by the execution of the story. It dragged way too much for my taste. I have a friend who was waiting to read these last two books, and while I kept bugging her to get going while I was reading AFFC, I told her, "meh, maybe you shouldn't bother after all" when I finished ADWD.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 7:45 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 7:45 AM on November 8, 2011
I probably won't read A Dance with Dragons after slogging through A Feast for Crows, even though I'm more interested in the characters in A Dance with Dragons. I'd read the first three books pretty quickly one after the other, but A Feast for Crows pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the series.
I think Martin got too distracted by the storytelling possibilities of the world he created, and the central story has spun out of control. According to Wikipedia, the first four "Iron Islands" chapters of chapters of A Feast for Crows were originally published as a novella called Arms of the Kraken, and he should have left that entire storyline as a separate book in the same universe. I don't believe he has the discipline to pull the story back together in a satisfying and sensible way.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:52 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think Martin got too distracted by the storytelling possibilities of the world he created, and the central story has spun out of control. According to Wikipedia, the first four "Iron Islands" chapters of chapters of A Feast for Crows were originally published as a novella called Arms of the Kraken, and he should have left that entire storyline as a separate book in the same universe. I don't believe he has the discipline to pull the story back together in a satisfying and sensible way.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:52 AM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think it depends on how you feel about the direction of the series.
If you think that Martin has completely lost the plot, then the book will likely be a slog.
If you think all the pawn shuffling is essential to world-building, then the book will likely satisfy you.
posted by madajb at 7:58 AM on November 8, 2011
If you think that Martin has completely lost the plot, then the book will likely be a slog.
If you think all the pawn shuffling is essential to world-building, then the book will likely satisfy you.
posted by madajb at 7:58 AM on November 8, 2011
I was satisfied by the book. It was better than AFFC, and there are at least 2 storylines which are absolutely amazing and definitely worth the read.
posted by King Bee at 8:00 AM on November 8, 2011
posted by King Bee at 8:00 AM on November 8, 2011
I read all five books in one massive onslaught, and then went immediately back to the beginning to start reading them again. I enjoyed them all very much. Just for comparison, I abandoned the Wheel of Time halfway through the sixth book.
(I also think GRRM definitely can pull it together. For those who have read all five books, go back to the first one and read the sequence in Bran's first dream, the one that starts with the crow that swoops down and says "Say, got any corn?")
posted by KathrynT at 8:04 AM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
(I also think GRRM definitely can pull it together. For those who have read all five books, go back to the first one and read the sequence in Bran's first dream, the one that starts with the crow that swoops down and says "Say, got any corn?")
posted by KathrynT at 8:04 AM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yup, Tyrion is going to completely rock the house as Daenerys' Hand. He's going to completely own the Ghicari cities in a week at most... once he manages to get there.
Oh, look Daenerys making another subtle political error she wouldn't have with Tyrion around to mentor her, and there's another. And one more. Oh, look, yet another surprise turn of fate that takes Tyrion off course... and another... and another... and are you going someplace with this or are you just dicking around with useless and uninteresting subplots? Oh, I see, dicking around.
On the other hand, Stannis becomes a character you like, because he's earned your respect, not because he's likeable, and watching Jon come to the same decision is fantastic reading, as is what Arya and Davos go through. Theon finding out how strong and smart and tough he actually is was a surprising journey, tho not for the queasy.
And there were a ton of bullshit subplots where not a damn was given and not any where was gone.
It's still lightyears better than A Feast for Crows, and the next novel is now set up for wall-to-wall awesome.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:48 AM on November 8, 2011
Oh, look Daenerys making another subtle political error she wouldn't have with Tyrion around to mentor her, and there's another. And one more. Oh, look, yet another surprise turn of fate that takes Tyrion off course... and another... and another... and are you going someplace with this or are you just dicking around with useless and uninteresting subplots? Oh, I see, dicking around.
On the other hand, Stannis becomes a character you like, because he's earned your respect, not because he's likeable, and watching Jon come to the same decision is fantastic reading, as is what Arya and Davos go through. Theon finding out how strong and smart and tough he actually is was a surprising journey, tho not for the queasy.
And there were a ton of bullshit subplots where not a damn was given and not any where was gone.
It's still lightyears better than A Feast for Crows, and the next novel is now set up for wall-to-wall awesome.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:48 AM on November 8, 2011
I found them about equal. It's nice to see Jon and Tyrion and Dany again, but for a series that's already running on 5,000 pages there is a gigantic amount of filler and dragging of feet in DWD.
CHAPTER 1: Tyrion is on a boat!
CHAPTER 4,987: Tyrion fell off a boat and got back on! HOW FUN.
ugh. That said, if you enjoy the universe you'l enjoy the book, but you could probably get away with a Wikipedia summary.
posted by GilloD at 9:53 AM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
CHAPTER 1: Tyrion is on a boat!
CHAPTER 4,987: Tyrion fell off a boat and got back on! HOW FUN.
ugh. That said, if you enjoy the universe you'l enjoy the book, but you could probably get away with a Wikipedia summary.
posted by GilloD at 9:53 AM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Ys: "the next book...is out, right?"
Funniest thing I've read all day. The publication date of "Dem Dancin' Dragons" was pushed back at least four times. I wouldn't expect the next book before at least 2015, unless GRRMartin wises up and hires a ghostwriter.
2015 would be the absolute best case scenario. SOS came out in 2000, with a foreward that promised the then titled Dance With Dragons forthcoming. By 2001 it became split into 2 books, and Feast didnt make it to shelves until 2005, with an afterword that promised DWD in a year (as it was originally supposed to be one book and alleged split only for space reasons). SIX YEARS LATER Dance finally showed up. His last 2 books have taken 5 and 6 years to write what was originally supposed to be the 4th book in the series. Sticking with the pattern and we wont see Winds of Winter until 2017 or 2018. Basically don't count on ever finishing the series, just be happy and take the next book, if it comes, as an unexpected gift.
As far as Dance goes...you should really consider it as the 2nd half of Feast and read them together as 1 book. They have the same themes of futility and failure and constitute the second act in the three part story.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:19 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Funniest thing I've read all day. The publication date of "Dem Dancin' Dragons" was pushed back at least four times. I wouldn't expect the next book before at least 2015, unless GRRMartin wises up and hires a ghostwriter.
2015 would be the absolute best case scenario. SOS came out in 2000, with a foreward that promised the then titled Dance With Dragons forthcoming. By 2001 it became split into 2 books, and Feast didnt make it to shelves until 2005, with an afterword that promised DWD in a year (as it was originally supposed to be one book and alleged split only for space reasons). SIX YEARS LATER Dance finally showed up. His last 2 books have taken 5 and 6 years to write what was originally supposed to be the 4th book in the series. Sticking with the pattern and we wont see Winds of Winter until 2017 or 2018. Basically don't count on ever finishing the series, just be happy and take the next book, if it comes, as an unexpected gift.
As far as Dance goes...you should really consider it as the 2nd half of Feast and read them together as 1 book. They have the same themes of futility and failure and constitute the second act in the three part story.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:19 PM on November 8, 2011 [2 favorites]
Both FFC and DWD would have greatly benefitted from a ruthless editor going through and crossing out all the meandering filler with a bright red pen.
The difference between the two books is that if you did this with FFC, you'd be left with a slender, disjointed collection of short stories. If you did this with DWD, you'd still have a pretty hefty book, and it would still be recognizable as a novel (it would, however, feature a LOT less Dany and Tyrion).
Part of the problem is that much of the payoff for the material in FFC doesn't come til DWD. So if you read on, you'll probably hate FFC less in retrospect.
posted by psycheslamp at 12:22 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
The difference between the two books is that if you did this with FFC, you'd be left with a slender, disjointed collection of short stories. If you did this with DWD, you'd still have a pretty hefty book, and it would still be recognizable as a novel (it would, however, feature a LOT less Dany and Tyrion).
Part of the problem is that much of the payoff for the material in FFC doesn't come til DWD. So if you read on, you'll probably hate FFC less in retrospect.
posted by psycheslamp at 12:22 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am halfway through DWD and the pacing is very slow. I have found it to be much much slower than FFC. I vote for: you will be extremely bored.
posted by Adultivity at 5:02 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Adultivity at 5:02 PM on November 8, 2011 [1 favorite]
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posted by nkknkk at 4:34 AM on November 8, 2011