Fantasy novels without the sexism = are they only a myth?
October 18, 2011 12:31 PM   Subscribe

Bookfilter: looking for fantasy novels without the entrenched sexism. An impossible task? There are plenty of fantasy stories in which the woman proves herself equal to the men, but that's not what I'm looking for. I want a setting in which that proof simply isn't necessary.

I'm also not looking for stories in which there is a sort of 'separate but equal' sexism, in which women are considered as good as men, but have this mystical womanhood thing going on. That's just as annoying. Not that the male and female characters can't be good at different things, but the female characters shouldn't be good at them by virtue of being female.

I'm open to a very wide definition of "fantasy" here, but I'm hoping against hope for something with an epic quest, some swords, some sorcery, etc. Just without the sexism.
posted by marginaliana to Writing & Language (79 answers total) 109 users marked this as a favorite
 
Jo Walton's King's Peace seems to fit. Seanan McGuire's October Daye. Diana P Francis's Horngate Witches (presumably also her other books, which I haven't gotten around to). Kristin Cashore's Graceling and Fire (unless I misremember their settings).
posted by jeather at 12:38 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Best answer: The Steerswoman books by Rosemary Kirstein fit the bill. They include: The Steerswoman, The Outskirter’s Secret, The Lost Steersman and finally The Language of Power (not read the last).

+1 on the Jo Walton too.
posted by bonehead at 12:41 PM on October 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


Jacquiline Carey's Kushiel and Namah series might fit your needs as long as you don't mind some erotica with your fantasy.
posted by dchrssyr at 12:44 PM on October 18, 2011


The Pern series by Anne McCaffrey may or may not fit your bill... I loved it and to me many of the books were great because of the female heroins who did great things because of who they are. But McCaffrey also like sex scenes and romantic tension, so I don't know if that's a dealbreaker for you. Others of her novels also seem to revolve around strong women -- the Acorna series, the Crystal Singer series, and the Ships series.
posted by DoubleLune at 12:49 PM on October 18, 2011


Best answer: I found Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword and The Hero and The Crown to pretty free of those cliches.
posted by flex at 12:58 PM on October 18, 2011 [7 favorites]


I think the Valdemar books by Mercedes Lackey fit these requirements very well. Great fantasy, lots of swords and magic, women and men involved at all levels.
posted by alms at 1:00 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Best answer: Garth Nix's Old Kingdom trilogy—Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen—is exactly what you're looking for.
posted by Zozo at 1:02 PM on October 18, 2011 [18 favorites]


Not a book, but you might enjoy Dragon Age, the role playing game. The main character is gender neutral and imo, the female side characters are generally far more interesting than the male characters (Morrigan's ridiculous outfits aside).
posted by empath at 1:03 PM on October 18, 2011


Yeah, I think The Hero and the Crown is the way to go, here.
posted by Stacey at 1:04 PM on October 18, 2011


Catherynne Valente's The Orphan's Tales duology (In the Night Garden and In the Cities of Coin and Spice). It's full of women telling their own stories and making their own way in the world that's full of fantasy and built on myths and fairy tales. It's probably more sorcery than swords, but there's still several of action-oriented women who engage in combat; some of their quests are also not as grand in scale as others, although all the layers of stories build up to something breath-taking and ultimately epic. Totally awesome.

Also agree with The Hero and the Crown rec.
posted by cuculine at 1:06 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


The society in Pern series is all of kinds of sexist. The early books especially so. I think it may have tapered off some in the later books. Also, fyi, the King's Peace starts off with the main character being gang raped. As you are looking for non-sexist stuff, that might not be what you are looking for.
posted by nooneyouknow at 1:07 PM on October 18, 2011 [8 favorites]


Response by poster: See, McCaffrey is a good example of what I don't want, because there's quite a bit of 'women can only ride this kind of dragon,' etc. Individual women overcome that in various ways, but it's still there.
posted by marginaliana at 1:08 PM on October 18, 2011 [3 favorites]


seconding: blue sword. hero and crown. garth nix.

throwing in: ursula leguin
posted by beefetish at 1:10 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Steven Brust's Taltos books integrate male and female Dragaerans at all levels of society from nobility to peasantry. Most of the discrimination in the books occurs due to various kinds of racism.
posted by cgc373 at 1:12 PM on October 18, 2011 [4 favorites]


DoubleLune, umm, what? McCaffrey is full of weird rapey sexism. LOTS of weird rapey sexism.

To answer the question, umm, I tend to like Barbara Hambly, but it may be hard to get hold of some of her older stuff (... you could probably PM me about that if you're interested, though ... ); something with Sun Wolf and Starhawk, the Darwath books, or the Windrose Chronicles. There's always a definite het romance plot/subplot or two though.

I used to like Robin Hobb, but then she wrote a ... thing ... and I just started wanting to post bad interspecies fanfic at the Pit of Voles under the name Robyn Hobbs, and never read her books again. It's sad. And also I don't write fanfic anyway. But if you don't know what I'm talking about, you may want to try some of her stuff; the Liveship books have a female protagonist but on the other hand, many people spend a lot of time wanting to slap her.

Ekaterin Vor* is also an interesting person, if you aren't too fed up with Miles :)

Sarah Monette is kind of like Barbara Hambly if she'd started off writing slash instead of Gandalf Mary Sues, with more evidence of complicated literary and historical references. Make of that what you will.
posted by Lebannen at 1:16 PM on October 18, 2011


Seconding the Kirstein and Lackey recommendations, Kirstein in particular; that series is pretty interesting. Lackey's books can come across as somewhat...not juvenile, precisely, but youngish. After all, many of them feature the Heralds of Valdemar, and they all have magic psychic ponies. (I say that as someone who owns most of Lackey's books.)

Lois Bujold's Chalion books might work, and to a lesser extent her Sharing Knife series. Those latter are pretty danged romance-y though. If you're open to SF, Bujold's Cordelia's Honor might do. The rest of the Vorkosigan Saga has strong female characters, but they are not the main character. (Lebannen, how can you possibly get fed up with Miles??) :)

Oh, Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksennarion? It's been years since I read it, so I don't recall for sure where it stood on the non-sexism issue, but it might work.

Exiles: The Ruins of Ambrai by Melanie Rawn and its sequel have strong female leads, and a bit of "reverse sexism" to boot. Mary Gentle's A Secret History, first in the Book of Ash series, is the story of a woman mercenary leader, but it definitely has some elements of traditional gender roles; everyone thinks the female main character is unnatural and/or Satanic.

On preview: a hard second for the Dragon Age: Origins recommendation. Sure, it's a video game, but your female PC will kick so much ass, and no one will EVER tell you you can't do something because you're a girl.
posted by Janta at 1:19 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm reminded of Janny Wurts and Raymond E. Feist's Empire Trilogy, with the huge caveat that it's been well over a decade since I read them, so I can't remember if it fulfills all your criteria.
posted by General Malaise at 1:27 PM on October 18, 2011


Seconding Robin McKinley, only all of them instead of just The Blue Sword and The Hero and the Crown.
posted by orange swan at 1:27 PM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


I want to second the Brust recommendation. Sexism is basically absent in the books, save a little bit of man-protect-woman! in one relationship.
posted by hought20 at 1:28 PM on October 18, 2011


I've not yet made it through the entire series so I can't guarantee this holds out right to the end (I'm on book 8 right now and see no reason to expect otherwise), but how about Steven Erickson's Malazan Book(s) of the Fallen? Plenty of women in the Malazan Army and in positions of power without making a huge deal of them being female; there are even lesbian couples that are portrayed in a refreshingly matter-of-fact manner ...
posted by DingoMutt at 1:29 PM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


The Scar by China Mieville, has a small mention of sexism (one of the characters published her books under a psuedonym to disguise her gender), but from what I remember of the book, the pirate culture is remarkably egalitarian about sex/gender. Even New Crobuzon, for all that it is a racist society with a stratified class structure seems to be remarkably free of sexism in Perdido Street Station. How well these fit the "fantasy" label is debatable.

These aren't well written by any stretch of the imagination, but from what I remember of some of the D&D novels I read as a kid, sex was only an issue insofar as it dictated which characters were attracted to each other in the heteronormative paradigm. Any book featuring the Drow, however, will have weird sexual politics.
posted by Hactar at 1:36 PM on October 18, 2011


Janta, I'm not fed up with Miles, I just have this psychic feeling that the OP has already read Cordelia's Honour and that she gets a bit impatient with Miles. Otherwise I would have said Cordelia's Honour, too. I haven't read the Chalion books yet but agree that the Sharing Knife books are a bit romancey.

I also own a lot of Valdemar books, and reread them whenever I want psychic pony fluffiness :)

And further to General Malaise's comment, I'm currently rereading Daughter of the Empire for the first time in ... ages ... and not really being impressed with the presence of all the anonymous slavegirls, and indeed slaves in general. I mean, I know it's supposed to be a very different society and everything, but that's just not something I want right now. Also annoying names for stuff (hwaet bread and chocho-la, anyone?).
posted by Lebannen at 1:39 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm a big fan of Ekaterina Sedia, and I think that her books will fit the bill, not particularly epic though.
posted by Gygesringtone at 1:40 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm reminded of Janny Wurts and Raymond E. Feist's Empire Trilogy, with the huge caveat that it's been well over a decade since I read them, so I can't remember if it fulfills all your criteria.

Excellent books - but really about a woman coming to power in a heavily male dominated society.

One might argue that sexism is a heavy theme. (In a good way, yes, but I get the impression the poster is looking for books where gender just isn't an issue.)
posted by ChrisManley at 1:41 PM on October 18, 2011


You might enjoy Sword-Dancer and its sequels by Jennifer Roberson. They're narrated from the standpoint of a sexist, piggish dude, but Del is clearly meant to be his capable equal, and I suspect they're meant as a commentary on his attitudes as well. Mind, though, I haven't read them since I was thirteen or so.

Patricia Briggs' Raven's Shadow is another one--high fantasy setting, with sexist trappings, but the hero is actually a mom. She's gifted by virtue of being gifted, though, not by virtue of her sex.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:42 PM on October 18, 2011


I found Robin McKinley's The Blue Sword and The Hero and The Crown to pretty free of those cliches.

Yes, except at the end the main characters marry the guy you expect they will. When I was a kid I HATED that at the end the woman and the guy had to end up married. (And I'm female and het!) Why did they have to ruin a perfectly good adventure with marriage?

LeGuin is great, though her recent stuff is getting weirdly simplistic and Buddhist-proselytizey. I say stick with her older stuff.

I liked Graceling, though it was still hyper heterosexual. At least marriage isn't a given in it, and there are discussions of its pros and cons.
posted by small_ruminant at 1:57 PM on October 18, 2011


I liked CJ Cherryh's Dreamstone but what women there are in it are definitely in women's roles. However, it's clear that it's society that put them there, not that they're lesser or incapable of more or anything like that.
posted by small_ruminant at 1:59 PM on October 18, 2011


This is a surprisingly difficult question. I keep thinking of awesome books and then realizing they fit the "women proving they're as good" or "women are awesome in different ways" categories.

I think Ilona Andrews may fit what you're looking for. Her main series is post-apocalyptic urban fantasy rather than traditional high fantasy, but it's awesome and full of sword fighting and magic and a woman who is awesome not in spite, or because of, being a woman, but in a way that is mostly independent of her gender/sex.
posted by pie ninja at 2:15 PM on October 18, 2011


Stephen Hunt's Jackalian series has female characters equivalent or more powerful than male protagonists, though some of the characters have some sexism.
posted by drethelin at 2:17 PM on October 18, 2011


Even New Crobuzon, for all that it is a racist society with a stratified class structure seems to be remarkably free of sexism in Perdido Street Station.

I could go for a cheap joke, but instead I'll seriously say that Perdido Street Station contains one of the most disturbing rapes scenes I have ever had the misfortune to read and not be able to forget.

I'm not sure if wanting to read non-sexist fantasy means "no rape scenes" to marginaliana, but it would sure be high on my list of criteria.
posted by Squeak Attack at 2:17 PM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


I remember Bartimaeus Trilogy as being post-sexism in that way -- yes, it's YA and both of the nurture-y characters in the first book happen to be female, but there are powerful female magicians, just like there are powerful male ones, and nobody every comments on it. The second novel focuses on one of the strongest, toughest, and real-feeling female main characters I've seen in a long, long time in fantasy fiction. She takes leadership positions, and people challenge her have to do with age or class-related biases, rather than sex. The third novel gives her and the male lead roughly equal billing time.

No wuv and mawwiage and hed pastede on romance between the male and female leads, either, which was really, really refreshing.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:19 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Michelle Sagara's Elantra series are pretty sexism free. I like them quite a lot although they can be a little cloying - there's a heavy undercurrent of "Must protect . . the. . CHILDREN!" In the urban fantasy arena, nthing Seanan McGuire and adding T.A. Pratt's Marla Mason books. I keep wanting to add Sean McMullen's Moonworlds saga (scroll down a bit on that link) to this list so I'm going to go with my instinct there with the caveat that I haven't read them in some years so my recollection of them as refreshingly sexism free (he pretty much hates everyone, male and female, which I like in an author) could be off base.
posted by mygothlaundry at 2:27 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Some of the societies in L.E. Modesitt's Recluce books are like this, particularly books involving Recluce itself.
posted by worldswalker at 2:34 PM on October 18, 2011


Read some Octavia Butler. Especially the Lilith's Brood trilogy.
posted by gnutron at 2:51 PM on October 18, 2011 [2 favorites]


Hm. A tentative seconding for Barbara Hambly (one of my favourite writers, and I don't remember overt sexism in her books, but it may be something I skip over) and a strong seconding for Rosemary Kirstein. I don't think Robin Hobb is going to fit your criteria - I think the Liveship Traders series has a strong undercurrent of women fighting against society's assumptions - but some of the books she wrote as Megan Lindholm might. Martha Wells might work for you too, though she doesn't write traditional fantasy. You can get The Element of Fire as a free e-book - she's released it under Creative Commons - so you can find out if you like her writing free of charge. Trudi Canavan, perhaps... her books feature classism (as an element of society to be overcome) but not sexism, I think.

(Sorry, no links, because I'm on my iPad.)

I'm not sure about Cordelia's Honour... Lois McMaster Bujold's Barrayar is explicitly sexist (although Beta Colony certainly isn't), and in any case, the Vorkosigan series is science fiction, not fantasy. They are great books, though! - I'm currently in the middle of my fifth or sixth reread.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 3:09 PM on October 18, 2011


Sorry, I was a teenager when I read McCaffrey and mainly I remembered how awesome the women seemed. I probably haven't read anything that fits the bill.
posted by DoubleLune at 3:21 PM on October 18, 2011


Justine Larbalestier's Magic or Madness series fits the bill, although this is more YA oriented contemporary fantasy.
posted by bove at 3:22 PM on October 18, 2011


I'm going to disrecommend the Malazan Book of the Fallen - it's got some strong female characters, and it also has a tremendous amount of increasingly problematic (and explicit) rape.

Lackey is a little iffy - all of her main characters in the Valdemar series that are female are also from non-egalitarian cultures and get to discover the wonders of being with people who don't judge based on gender. That doesn't mean they're not soothing on those particular nerves, though - I'd pick up By the Sword and see what you think.

Modesitt has very, very few female characters with any agency in the Recluce books, and while the marker of the "bad guys" is invariably their sexism, it doesn't actually help all that much with this request.

Tanya Huff is great - the Keeper books are urban fantasy before vampires got trendy, the Blood books are after, and the Valor series is military scifi with a delightfully queer sensibility. Her early stuff is a little clunky but has the same spirit.

Seconding the Kushiel books - I adore them. Also seconding The King's Peace, as well as the warning about the rape scene. It's central to the plot and handled well, but it may turn you off.
posted by restless_nomad at 3:36 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


I'm a fan of Sherri Tepper. Some of her work is explicitly feminist. I liked Grass a lot. I haven't read her in a while, so hvae no thoughts on her newer work.
posted by theora55 at 3:36 PM on October 18, 2011


The Return to Neveryon series deals with sexuality in a very interesting, nuanced but possibly dated way. I recommend them.
posted by Dmenet at 3:42 PM on October 18, 2011


I could be wrong, but Clive Barker's Imajica felt pretty feminist to me. It's fantasy more than horror
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 3:48 PM on October 18, 2011


Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn? At least I don't remember there was anything gender related. Some slaves vs oppression though?
posted by lundman at 3:49 PM on October 18, 2011


Best answer: McCaffrey has characters in her books that acknowledge some feminist issues, but yeah, I wouldn't really call them feminist.

N.K. Jemisin a really, really smart lady and I've been thrilled with everything of hers I've read so far.
posted by kavasa at 3:49 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


A bit sci-fi rather than sword and sorcery: Ursula Le Guin, especially The Telling (the planet the protagonist is studying has religious, but not gender, prejudice) and The Dispossessed (the anarchic society on Annares has no gender prejudice).

Left Hand of Darkness has no entrenched sexism, because everyone is the same gender: hermaphrodite.

Nthing Garth Nix. Everyone in the Old Kingdom is too busy trying not to to be lunch for the undead to have time for sexism. And there is plenty of swords and sorcery.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:20 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Thirding Le Guin, whose fictional women are always people first. Sometimes they switch gender, too. I particularly recommend the short story collection The Birthday of the World for a nice mix of story types. (Stopping now before I spiral off into an over-excited screed about just how terrific this collection is and how many times I've re-read it). I think she addresses stuff about gender and introversion and culture in a way that is never dull or lecture-y, but slipped into beautiful stories filled with landscapes and characters that you wish you could walk through, speak to.
posted by thylacinthine at 4:21 PM on October 18, 2011


Best answer: _Great_ question, OP. I came in thinking, "Oh, this'll be so easy!", but looking through my collection, it's actually much, much more difficult than I thought. Seems most fantasy is either a) totally chauvinist, or b) interested in exploring gender around chauvinism.

Looking through my own collection, I'm Nthing Garth Nix - those are terrific books. The Jirel of Jory books by C.L Moore are fantastically pulp fantasy novellas featuring a kick-ass female knight. Other than that, hmmmm. Liveship Traders could be an all right one, too.
posted by smoke at 5:09 PM on October 18, 2011


Gratifying to see the incredibly good Chalion books get notice here. I consider Paladin of Souls-- the middle book of the trilogy-- to be weakest by a good margin, and it won the Hugo, Nebula, and Locus awards.

Almost anything by Patricia Wrede or Caroline Stevemer would meet the criterion pretty effortlessly, I think, and a book they wrote together, Sorcery and Cecilia, lacks all pretension but is one of the best fantasies I have ever read. Stevemer's College of Magic is the best fantasy novel set in a school I have read yet, and for some reason, schools are an especially good venue for fantasy.

Also, check out Tanith Lee's

* The Wars of Vis

* The Storm Lord (1976)
* Anackire (1983)
* The White Serpent (1988)


for an extremely vivid and powerful exploration of the feminine divine at its most awe-inspiring and terrible, and I think you will change your mind about the portrayal of "womanhood" in fantasy.
posted by jamjam at 5:32 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


College of Magics, that is.
posted by jamjam at 5:35 PM on October 18, 2011


Sorcery, if not sword: Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching Discworld books are non-sexist (technically YA). Some of the other Discworld books are also quite non-sexist, in that sexism simply is not an issue - I'm mainly thinking of the witches (with the exception of Equal Rites).
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:23 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Although I love Sheri Tepper's work, I don't know how well it fits "fantasy without sexism" — a lot of her books are explicitly about sexism (The Gate to Women's Country, Gibbon's Decline and Fall, Six Moon Dance) or include female characters living in very sexist societies (Singer from the Sea, Beauty, Grass, Raising the Stones). They're very good books (although not without their problems) and explicitly feminist* and I wouldn't want to discourage anybody from reading them, but they're not "without sexism".

It's been a while since I read it, but as I recall Janet Kagan's book Hellspark didn't have the kind of sexism the OP is fed up with.

Also been a while since I've read them, but Sarah Zettel's books might fit the bill. Kingdom of Cages, Fool's War, and Reclamation are three I liked.


* I was grumbling to my husband once about how people dismiss Tepper's work as being nothing but "feminist wish-fulfillment fantasy".

"What do they want, wish-denial fantasy? Tell them to read Peter Watts. Anybody rejected by the Russian publishing houses for being 'too depressing' should be just what they're looking for."

posted by Lexica at 6:23 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy has a primary character who is strong, brave, complex, flawed, and who happens to be a woman. She stands on her own in a male-dominated world and makes tough choices based on that predicament, but I didn't read her as "proving herself equal" to the men. Lots of swords and sorcery, too, very classic coming of age epic questing fantasy.
posted by tentacle at 6:56 PM on October 18, 2011


I'll second the recommendation for Tim Pratt's Marla Mason series.
posted by tdismukes at 7:18 PM on October 18, 2011


Sherwood Smith's books are almost always set in completely egalitarian societies: for example, women and men both partake in weapon and battle training (often with female instructors) and it's completely unremarkable for a woman to hold a traditionally 'male' position like captain of a military detachment. I'd start with her Crown Duel duology: the first book, Crown Duel is about a pair of noble siblings who rebel against an unjust king, narrated by Meliara, the female of the pair. The sequel, Court Duel focuses on the aftermath of the events of Crown Duel and is more romantically oriented but it's still an excellent book.
posted by miss sarah thane at 7:32 PM on October 18, 2011


I'm mainly thinking of the witches (with the exception of Equal Rites).

As much as I love Discworld, I don't think it's what OP is looking for. There strikes me as very much the separate-but-equal thing going on with the "men's magic is like this, women's magic is like that" divide between the witches and wizards which do seem to fall along somewhat gender stereotyped lines (the witches do the community caring and the healing of the sick and the midwifery while the wizards do the big bang type magic.) It's very conscious of what it is and it fits with Pratchett's general style of poking fun at humanity through the lens of fantasy, but I think it would irritate OP.
posted by lwb at 8:08 PM on October 18, 2011


Does Octavia Butler count as fantasy? Gender (and race, and sexuality, and many other things) are featured in her books, but they don't fit into the general male/female dichotomy that seems to be the norm. I'm not very familiar with the other authors here though, so maybe she's too sci-fi-ish?
posted by barnone at 8:43 PM on October 18, 2011 [1 favorite]


Seconding Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion. Swords, magic, lots of strong female characters alongside strong male characters, and nobody bats an eye or trots out the "I CAN/CAN'T DO THIS BECAUSE I'M MALE/FEMALE" thing.

(In fact, all of Elizabeth Moon's writing is like that, though most of the rest of her stuff is science fiction.)
posted by Xany at 8:57 PM on October 18, 2011


Thirding the Paksenarrion books. REALLY good stuff. The woogy magic doesn't really kick in until the second/third books. Loved the ending of the trilogy.
posted by Heretical at 9:36 PM on October 18, 2011


I would put the Malazan chronicle here. Yes, there are some rape scenes, but they are presented as a tactic of war (this doesn't make them less disturbing, of course)-the primary characters, the Malazans, appear to be free of institutionalized sexism. Violent and sometimes awful, but not sexist. Men and women seemed to be represented equally in all levels of the military, frontlines and command. There are no heroes on missions to rescue women.
posted by purenitrous at 10:02 PM on October 18, 2011


Best answer: This is a super hard one. I would disagree with a lot of the stuff previously mentioned, even books I love and adore, most non-sexist writing these days seems to be about women overcoming sexist societies. For example,

In The Hero and the Crown, men do the fighting. Daughters do NOT get swords or war horses, instead they get ponies who love parades and hate going outside of the city walls. By The Blue Sword things have gotten better, and then worse again. There are women in the army but not anywhere near 50%. Also the other society which is introduced is sexist (men work, women keep house, the inheritance goes to the male child).

Sorcery and Cecelia is a regency romance. The society it is set in is extremely, extremely sexist. Girls are expected to be chaperoned and stick to lady-like things, they have coming out balls, they can claim to have "the headache" when they want to get out of something! The brother, on the other hand, has tons more freedom. A College of Magics isn't much better.

Discworld society is pretty sexist, too. Angua is a minority representative on the watch partly because she's a woman. The Witch/Wizard thing is "separate but equal". The normal trade guilds are sexist, the ones that aren't are either violent or prostitutes. Women who want to be heroes/adventurers have trouble.

I found exactly ONE book on my shelves which fits this: Pegasus by Robin McKinley. I haven't re-read it recently, but the reviews confirm my impression that there isn't sexism in the culture. On the other hand, it gets hugely mixed reviews because it's not action-y at all and (major problem) it's only half a book. The second half won't be out for another year. Dear McKinley, please please please write faster. People out here are dying!
posted by anaelith at 3:51 AM on October 19, 2011 [3 favorites]


Yeah, sorry to rain on parades but Paksenarrion absolutely fights some sexist behavior - just not all the time and not from everyone. Also, some rape scenes.

Same with Lackey, except more rape.

And I don't have anything constructive to add apart from Tansy Rayner Roberts may have a series that fits the bill, I haven't read it all yet though and there are gendered professions as well as rape.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:31 AM on October 19, 2011


Elizabeth Vonarburg, particularly the Maerlande Chronicles. It's honestly more sci fi, but sort of reads like pastoral fantasy in parts, to me at least. And also Joanna Russ' Adventures of Alyx -- she specifically plays with and subverts fantasy tropes there. My only complaint is that I wish there were more adventures, as it's a pretty short read.
posted by lillygog at 4:40 AM on October 19, 2011


I think Martha Wells "City of Bones" and "Wheel of the Infinite" (maybe her other work too) may fit - though it's been such a while since I've read them I can't promise.

I get how hard it is to find what you're looking for. Sexism is the backdrop in so many stories. Usually the best case scenario is that it's actually critiqued or undermined in some way - which is what I do love about Pratchett's Discworld series, which often does so. But that's different than imagining and writing about a world where sexism doesn't enter into it. That seems to be a level of fantasy a bit too far for most to imagine :(
posted by Salamandrous at 7:33 AM on October 19, 2011


Response by poster: Thanks all for the recommendations. Lots of things to put on my library hold list. And seeing the answers here has really driven home what I was anticipating when I posted - that there are some great books about women overcoming sexism, but few in which it is not an issue at all. (Someone used the term post-feminist, and maybe that's what I should be looking for.)

Of what I've already read from the recommendations here, I would say that Lackey, the Vorkosigan series, and Sorcery and Cecelia are all essentially 'strong women in a sexist world' types, and Discworld is definitely 'separate but equal' womanhood. It seems like Nix is a solid contender for what I want, though, so I think I'll start there.
posted by marginaliana at 7:57 AM on October 19, 2011


And in the four hours since I posted that, she's posted on her blog saying that Pegasus II is not, in fact, coming out next year, that she is working on something else, and Pegasus will now be a trilogy, book two to come out sometime in the indefinite far future. It's enough to make you swear off of living authors all together. J/K I love you Robin McKinley pleasewritePegII.

I have some more recommendations for you, though. It seems like the most-likely-to-be-post-feminist books are books which start out in modern day America, even more so if they're young adult. Harry Potter. Diane Duane's Young Wizards series.
posted by anaelith at 9:01 AM on October 19, 2011


I think the book I'm reading at the moment, Vernor Vinge's The Children of the Sky might fit well. He's typically much more sci-fi than fantasy, but this one takes place (so far) entirely on a medieval-level planet, but with high-technology having just recently arrived. That gives it more of a fantasy feel than most. However, it's a sequel to A Fire upon the Deep which is definitely firmly in the sci-fi camp, and I'm not sure how well it would stand on its own.

The female characters in the book (and in the previous one) seem to be treated completely equally to male characters. Many of them are in positions of power, and their gender is entirely secondary to their personalities and individual characteristics.

I will note the caveat that I'm only about halfway done, so who knows what happens in the rest of the book. But my previous experiences indicate it'll probably continue in the same vein.

Are you definitely looking for fantasy only, or would sci-fi be of interest as well? If it would, I have a few other suggestions I could toss in.
posted by duien at 9:15 AM on October 19, 2011


Response by poster: Yeah, I'll take sci fi recs if people want to drop them in as well. I started with fantasy because I was reading it when the question came to me (Name of the Wind, which has some hella mystical womanhood), but I like sci fi, too.
posted by marginaliana at 10:05 AM on October 19, 2011


I'll second Sherwood Smith. Yes to Crown Duel (now sold as one volume containing the two books mentioned, under this name). But even more, to Inda, the first (sort of) of a series set in a society where men and women are equally well battle trained and expected to defend. (It is a little gendered, in that women are expected to defend their cities/lands, and men are expected to defend the border/wage war on other places. But they frequently practice boys against girls, and the girls frequently win. There doesn't seem to be more prestige attached to where their fighting takes place.)

My other mention would go to Girl Genius. It's about mad scientists and an alternate European history when mad science ruled and warred. Our main character, Agatha, is smarter and er, madder, than the rest and invents really scary stuff. Her best friend is a crazygood warrior who keeps trying to make Agatha a better warrior too. (The first ten or eleven books are available as graphic novels, the first book or two is available as a regular novel.)
posted by Margalo Epps at 10:41 AM on October 19, 2011


Sci-fi's much easier.

For Hard Sci-fi, any of Ian M. Banks Culture novels have pretty strong gender equality (especially since most humans can switch back and forth), although sexism is encountered in other cultures; Jay Lake's Death of a Starship is pretty solid golden age style story with women in positions of authority.

Watt's Rifter's trilogy features a female protagonist and I remember it having a more or less gender neutral society. Although it does deal with sexual abuse/rape, but in both so fair warning.

Definitely nthing Left Hand of Darkness for soft Sci-fi.
posted by Gygesringtone at 10:45 AM on October 19, 2011


"...sexual abuse/rape, but involving both genders so..."

You'd think by the second kid I'd learn not to internet with a 6 month old on my lap.
posted by Gygesringtone at 11:32 AM on October 19, 2011


Yes, Sci-Fi is way easier.

Kelly Eskridge has written a number of short stories with a protagonist whose gender is ambiguous - the reader is not able to determine whether they are male or female. Not sure if it's intended to be the same character each time, but they have the same name. The stories are also, I think, completely free of sexism. Here's the title story from her collection Dangerous Space.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:56 PM on October 19, 2011


Also, nthing Ian M Banks, for his Culture novels and also Against a Dark Background.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:57 PM on October 19, 2011


I've found better luck with so-called "urban fantasy" (Kelley Armstrong, Kim Harrison, Patricia Briggs, Yasmine Galenorn, Rachel Caine), stuff that's set in the modern world, although some of these do tend to be heavy on the romance side of things and less of the swords and sorcery that you're looking for. I'd also second Steven Brust and T.A. Pratt.
posted by hatsforbats at 4:08 PM on October 19, 2011


More sci-fi.

(Mefi's own) Charles Stross, particularly Accelerando - it's hard to be sexist post-singularity. Glasshouse might work for you - in that book, the characters can change genders at will, but there are some odd gender roles imposed on them in the events of the book. Everyone in Saturn's Children is a robot, but they are kind of screwed by the preconceptions of their human creators, including sexism - I'd avoid it (still a great book though)

Greg Egan, e.g. Diaspora. Post singularity again.

Kelly Link does a mix of sci-fi and fantasy with many female protagonists, and I do not recall any sexism in her work. Much of it is available here.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:29 PM on October 19, 2011 [1 favorite]


The thing with Lackey is that she's writing in an multi-national, multi-cultural 'verse. Also over generations. Some of them are as close to gender-neutral as you'll get, and others are more polarized, and they interact.

Although McCaffrey is also excellent, IIRC pretty much every book involves a "traditional" gender dynamic or the subversion thereof, except maybe Dragonsdawn (which is more SF) and some of her other SF titles like the Petaybee books.

Something of an aside (and not what you're looking for, but an amusing offshoot) if you enjoy gender-aware fantasy, I recommend the tongue-in-cheekery of the Chicks in Chainmail anthologies.
posted by sarahkeebs at 9:16 PM on October 19, 2011


Not Patricia Briggs. Female werewolves are rare to begin with, take their place in their pack from their mates, are treated totally differently. The main characters (in both of her urban fantasy series) spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about this, it plays important plot points....

My science fiction list is long... Way too long. Top of the list right now, though, is probably John Scalzi's Old Man's War. (Which, OK, still doesn't manage to completely avoid the topic, since he goes out of his way to point out that women are exactly as likely to be commanders/etc. as men in that universe, but at least what he's pointing out is that in that society the equality is really all that.)
posted by anaelith at 2:53 AM on October 20, 2011


I actually wrote a paper on this sort of thing last year for a YA Lit course. I have a few things to add.

Ursula LeGuin:
The first 3 Earthsea books were horribly chauvinist, my thesis was that the 4th book, Tehanu, was a sort of feminist apology for the first few novels in the series.
I haven't read it, but from what I have read ABOUT it, and what it sounds like, the book, Left Hand of Darkness, deals explicitly with gender roles.

LE Modesitt Jr.
I think the books that are chronologically early in the series are very much challenging gender roles. The sort of "Mother Civilization" is one lead by women, Westwind. I think the first books are Fall of Angels, Arms-Commander, and Towers of Sunset.
posted by ThaBombShelterSmith at 12:32 PM on October 20, 2011 [1 favorite]


I asked this question on an lj comm I sometimes hang out and they gave some more fantasy recs. See thread for more detail.

Choice of Romance web based text game
The Stone Prince by Fiona Patton
Unsounded webcomic
Rune Blade Triolgy (Kingmaker's Sword + The Western King + Broken Blade) by Ann Marston
Laurie Marks Elemental Logic series
Sherwood Smith's books, specifically Court Duel and Crown Duel
Diane Duane's Middle Kingdom/Tale of Five series starting with Door Into Fire
Frostflower and Thorn series by Phylliss Ann Karr
Lies of Locke Lamora and sequel
Michelle West's Sun Sword series
Elfquest comic
Ysbeau Wilce's Flora Segunda series
Chronicles of Elantra by Michelle Sagara
posted by nooneyouknow at 8:07 PM on October 20, 2011


Seconding Tanya Huff--in particular, things like the Quarters series or The Fire's Stone that are set entirely in their own worlds. It's been a while since I read them, but I remember finding them very refreshing in showing gender equality (and bisexuality) as the norm.
posted by fermion at 6:00 AM on October 22, 2011


Steven Erikson's Malazan books might fit the bill. A quick search turned up this, which suggests they were deliberately trying to avoid sexism.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 4:16 PM on October 24, 2011


« Older IP cameras or security system   |   How to get to Heathrow in the early AM Newer »
This thread is closed to new comments.