How do we know when they're really speaking Klingon?
July 28, 2011 8:53 AM Subscribe
How should I denote transitions between languages in a story I'm working on?
If you have Alice and Bob speaking in English, and then the conversation suddenly switches to German, I know you'd just indicate it in the text. Something like:
Bob switched to German and said, "I'm worried about Coop."
Alice replied in kind, "But he still has access to a damned fine cup of coffee."
Then you could just continue on the assumption that they speak German until otherwise noted. I also know that if you're using an isolated word here and there, you can just put the single term in italics. (I looked for prior Asks about this issue, and found one about legal documents that suggested going that route.)
What I want to know is, what's a more elegant way to handle it if people switch back and forth a lot within the same conversation? I'm writing a science fiction novel, and there are characters from various cultures who frequently segue back and forth between their native tongues and the local ones as a point of solidarity, or to avoid having certain things eavesdropped on. I want to keep it as kind of a subtle cue about what characters are uncomfortable about expressing openly.
I'd been using <> brackets, the way they do in comic books, but I would like to try and sell this book when I'm done with it, and I'd like it to be as polished as possible. A friend pointed out that might look silly. Is it? If so, what should I do?
If you have Alice and Bob speaking in English, and then the conversation suddenly switches to German, I know you'd just indicate it in the text. Something like:
Bob switched to German and said, "I'm worried about Coop."
Alice replied in kind, "But he still has access to a damned fine cup of coffee."
Then you could just continue on the assumption that they speak German until otherwise noted. I also know that if you're using an isolated word here and there, you can just put the single term in italics. (I looked for prior Asks about this issue, and found one about legal documents that suggested going that route.)
What I want to know is, what's a more elegant way to handle it if people switch back and forth a lot within the same conversation? I'm writing a science fiction novel, and there are characters from various cultures who frequently segue back and forth between their native tongues and the local ones as a point of solidarity, or to avoid having certain things eavesdropped on. I want to keep it as kind of a subtle cue about what characters are uncomfortable about expressing openly.
I'd been using <> brackets, the way they do in comic books, but I would like to try and sell this book when I'm done with it, and I'd like it to be as polished as possible. A friend pointed out that might look silly. Is it? If so, what should I do?
Best answer: You could use «chevrons» (or Guillemets), the way they do in French (and some other languages).
posted by mattbucher at 9:00 AM on July 28, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by mattbucher at 9:00 AM on July 28, 2011 [3 favorites]
Brackets wouldn't work in print.
If you want to denote characters speaking a language that others around then won't understand then your best bet is italics, but you can't rely solely on italics to convey that - each time a character does it, you'll need to figure out a way of explaining to the reader that this is what's happening. The tipoffs can get less explicit as the story goes on but there'll always need to be some indication.
Parentheses might also work:
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:05 AM on July 28, 2011 [9 favorites]
If you want to denote characters speaking a language that others around then won't understand then your best bet is italics, but you can't rely solely on italics to convey that - each time a character does it, you'll need to figure out a way of explaining to the reader that this is what's happening. The tipoffs can get less explicit as the story goes on but there'll always need to be some indication.
Parentheses might also work:
"Yes, let us consider your offer," said the sentient lobster men.Something like that. You might be better off with italics if there are going to be long passages of alien language, though, as the indicators here are only at the beginning and end of the sentence.
"(This is a terrible offer)," said Glorblak, in the Lobstronian language. "(They want to boil us and put butter on us. I'm not seeing an upside for us here)."
"(No shit, man)," replied Johnny Exoskeleton, the hotshot Lobstronian space pilot. "(They haven't even offered to buy us dinner first. Because we'd be the dinner! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha! Oh man. Dinner. Good one, me. Anyway)." He cleared his segmented throat. "Okay, guys, we think we're gonna pass on this one."
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:05 AM on July 28, 2011 [9 favorites]
Best answer: I want to keep it as kind of a subtle cue about what characters are uncomfortable about expressing openly.
If you use it too frequently, it won't be subtle—will, in fact, be an irritating distraction. There are probably better ways to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish than loading down your manuscript with linguistic metadata.
That said, assuming no more than two languages per conversation (native and local), I'd be inclined to madcaptenor's technique of putting whichever is the "private" language in italics. You'd only have to explain once or twice, early in the book, then fall back on faith in your reader's intelligence.
If you use it too frequently, it won't be subtle—will, in fact, be an irritating distraction. There are probably better ways to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish than loading down your manuscript with linguistic metadata.
That said, assuming no more than two languages per conversation (native and local), I'd be inclined to madcaptenor's technique of putting whichever is the "private" language in italics. You'd only have to explain once or twice, early in the book, then fall back on faith in your reader's intelligence.
"Lovely day we're having," Bob said, then switched to German: "I think someone's following us."posted by Zozo at 9:06 AM on July 28, 2011 [2 favorites]
Alice risked a furtive look over her shoulder. "Long black coat? I see him too. If you don't mind the humidity, I suppose."
You could always mix in some actual German, especially if you use enough english cognates so people can pick up the gist from context.
I would just say,
"I'm worried about Coop," Bob said, switching to German.
"Ja, aber er macht eine gute Kaffee." said Alice.
Or something, (i don't speak German, but you get the idea.)
posted by empath at 9:08 AM on July 28, 2011
I would just say,
"I'm worried about Coop," Bob said, switching to German.
"Ja, aber er macht eine gute Kaffee." said Alice.
Or something, (i don't speak German, but you get the idea.)
posted by empath at 9:08 AM on July 28, 2011
empath, I think the OP is talking about fictional/made up languages. I think mordax just wants to signify that they are speaking different languages without typing the languages out.
I've read several sci-fi books with different languages and forms of communication.
If you truly want to be classy, then I think you're just going to have to type it out. (Going to use FamousMonster's fantastic dialogue above)
If your heart is set on special characters, I would only do it for one non-common important language and I would introduce it early so the reader experiences it and becomes familar with it.
And remember, if it's written well the reader should be able to tell when you're switching languages without much guidance.
posted by royalsong at 9:35 AM on July 28, 2011
I've read several sci-fi books with different languages and forms of communication.
If you truly want to be classy, then I think you're just going to have to type it out. (Going to use FamousMonster's fantastic dialogue above)
"No shit, man" replied Johnny Exkoskeleton in Lobstronian, "They haven't even offered to buy us dinner first!" He cleared his throat and resumed speaking Common, "No deal."I'm not sure I would use italics to denote a different spoken language. It's really commonly used for telepathic speaking.
If your heart is set on special characters, I would only do it for one non-common important language and I would introduce it early so the reader experiences it and becomes familar with it.
And remember, if it's written well the reader should be able to tell when you're switching languages without much guidance.
posted by royalsong at 9:35 AM on July 28, 2011
I think Zozo's right that if you establish at some early point in the text that italics is your convention for denoting whatever language is the "private one", italics is the best way to go. It's the least aggressively unusual on the eye.
posted by penduluum at 10:03 AM on July 28, 2011
posted by penduluum at 10:03 AM on July 28, 2011
Go for the chevrons. Chevrons are classy as fuck.
posted by Chipmazing at 10:04 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Chipmazing at 10:04 AM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]
I was going to say italics, but mattbucher gives me an idea --- how about using a convention from whatever language you're using at the time? So for French, double chevrons, for Spanish an upside-down leading question mark assuming it's a question.
I'm not sure what the conventional parenthetical is for Lobstronian.
posted by skybolt at 10:05 AM on July 28, 2011
I'm not sure what the conventional parenthetical is for Lobstronian.
posted by skybolt at 10:05 AM on July 28, 2011
I think angle brackets might work fine, actually, as long as nobody's orating in their native tongue for more than a line or two at a time. In a science fiction novel it wouldn't look particularly weird to me; odd typographic conventions aren't that unusual in fantasy and science fiction. (Although they can be annoying...)
However... even though it's common in webcomics (and Asterix books, for that matter) to use brackets or a different font to represent another language, unusual typographic conventions in SF novels tend to represent English with an odd sound or speech that isn't vocalised. For example:
Kristine Kathryn Rusch uses em-dashes around words to denote aliens' laboured English in the Retrieval Artists series.
It's common to represent speech from an AI in a sans-serif font.
As royalsong says, italics get used for telepathic conversations. Example: Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books.
Pratchett's Death speaks in CAPITAL LETTERS.
And so on. I don't think this should necessarily stop you from picking one and going with it, but you'll need to make sure it's clear to the reader that you're denoting a different language that way, not just a different sound.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 10:06 AM on July 28, 2011
However... even though it's common in webcomics (and Asterix books, for that matter) to use brackets or a different font to represent another language, unusual typographic conventions in SF novels tend to represent English with an odd sound or speech that isn't vocalised. For example:
Kristine Kathryn Rusch uses em-dashes around words to denote aliens' laboured English in the Retrieval Artists series.
It's common to represent speech from an AI in a sans-serif font.
As royalsong says, italics get used for telepathic conversations. Example: Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar books.
Pratchett's Death speaks in CAPITAL LETTERS.
And so on. I don't think this should necessarily stop you from picking one and going with it, but you'll need to make sure it's clear to the reader that you're denoting a different language that way, not just a different sound.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 10:06 AM on July 28, 2011
I've seen italics in lit fiction with quotes and without. Example:
posted by infinitewindow at 10:14 AM on July 28, 2011
"Leave him alone," the other man said. Stripes of dried mud lay across his lean, haggard face.
The drunken officer startled me by leaning toward the other man and speaking in a clear, carrying Vietnamese. It was an old-fashioned, almost literary Vietnamese, and he must have thought and dreamed in it to speak it so well. He assumed that neither I nor the Montagnard would understand him.
This is serious, he said. Most of the people in the world I do not despise are already dead, or should be.I've also seen square brackets, angle brackets and chevrons in print in Asimov's to denote everything from telepathy to alien languages to synthetic languages.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:14 AM on July 28, 2011
Many, many, many, many, many, many, many sf books simply rely on italics for this.
"Hey! Big rock creature!" yelled Spaceman Spiff.
My, what a delicious morsel rumbled the granite hive-mother. I will grind you up and feed you to my gravelings. All Spiff could hear, though, was a subcutaneous tingling, as if from a distant earthquake ... until it was too late.
posted by dhartung at 10:41 AM on July 28, 2011
"Hey! Big rock creature!" yelled Spaceman Spiff.
My, what a delicious morsel rumbled the granite hive-mother. I will grind you up and feed you to my gravelings. All Spiff could hear, though, was a subcutaneous tingling, as if from a distant earthquake ... until it was too late.
posted by dhartung at 10:41 AM on July 28, 2011
Another parentheses-based possibility, especially if the second language is indeed being used for private asides.
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:49 AM on July 28, 2011
"Yes, let us consider your offer," said the sentient lobster men.Seems like it might be less typographically distracting than the parentheses-inside-quotation-marks strategy. On the downside, it wouldn't work well for extended conversations, or for conversations that aren't in some way parenthetical.
("This is a terrible offer," said Glorblak, in the Lobstronian language. "They want to boil us and put butter on us. I'm not seeing an upside for us here."
"No shit, man," replied Johnny Exoskeleton, the hotshot Lobstronian space pilot. "They haven't even offered to buy us dinner first. Because we'd be the dinner! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha! Oh man. Dinner. Good one, me. Anyway.")
He cleared his segmented throat. "Okay, guys, we think we're gonna pass on this one."
posted by nebulawindphone at 10:49 AM on July 28, 2011
I just want to add that as a reader, whenever I see 'foreign language' written in italics, especially in science fiction, I interpret it first as telepathic conversation of some sort. This is probably because in usual fiction, italics are usually used to represent a characters' thoughts.
One system I can faintly remembering seeing somewhere, possibly in a manga, is to attach an asterisk or similar distinguishing mark at the start or end of the sentence. For eg.
"I'm not sure he can understand us," Alice said. "Try talking in Agronian.
"Alright," Bob said, "*Is this where they sell modulators?"
"*No," the Agronian replied, "*This is where we sell drinks."
posted by Senza Volto at 10:50 AM on July 28, 2011
One system I can faintly remembering seeing somewhere, possibly in a manga, is to attach an asterisk or similar distinguishing mark at the start or end of the sentence. For eg.
"I'm not sure he can understand us," Alice said. "Try talking in Agronian.
"Alright," Bob said, "*Is this where they sell modulators?"
"*No," the Agronian replied, "*This is where we sell drinks."
posted by Senza Volto at 10:50 AM on July 28, 2011
I wouldn't worry about it at this point, unless you're self-publishing. Most publishers will let the book designer decide how to indicate this. If you're going to submit the manuscript to an agent or a reader, I'd pick one convention and stick with it, consistently.
posted by Ideefixe at 11:14 AM on July 28, 2011
posted by Ideefixe at 11:14 AM on July 28, 2011
What is wrong with just using a different font? Aliens speak in Comic Sans.
posted by zengargoyle at 12:20 PM on July 28, 2011
posted by zengargoyle at 12:20 PM on July 28, 2011
I recently read Orson Scott Card's books Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide, both of which had a lot of this sort of dialogue in them. The languages involved were English and Portuguese. For these books, the author generally decided to put the actual Portuguese words inside the quotation marks, and then follow the quotation with an English translation.
Here's a quote from page 110 of Speaker for the Dead:
Here's a quote from page 110 of Speaker for the Dead:
"Porque está olhando-nos?" asked the boy. Why are you looking at us?And another from page 101 of Xenocide:
Ender answered with a question. "Voce é árbitro?" You're the arbiter here? The word could mean umpire, but it could also mean magistrate.
"De vez em quando." Sometimes.
Ender switched to Stark — he wasn't sure he knew how to say anything complex in Portuguese. "Then tell me, arbiter, is it fair to leave a stranger to find his way around without help?"
"Stranger? You mean utlanning, framling, or raman?"
"No, I think I mean infidel."
"O Senhor é descrente?" You're an unbeliever?
"Só descredo no incrível." I only disbelieve the unbelievable.
The boy grinned. "Where do you want to go, Speaker?"
"Do you really think this is one of those basic discoveries?" asked Grego, looking them in the eye, each in turn. "A talking virus? Se Quara sabe tanto, porque ela nao diz o que é que aqueles bichos dizem?" If she knows so much about it, why doesn't she tell us what these little beasts are saying? It was a sign that the discussion was getting out of hand, that he broke into Portuguese instead of speaking in Stark, the language of science and diplomacy.posted by Vorteks at 1:11 PM on July 28, 2011 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hmm. Well, I'd like to begin by thanking everybody for participating. I feel less silly being uncertain about this, based on the breadth of answers offered. :)
To clarify a little: no Earth languages appear anywhere in this. It's a world hopping pulp story, and I have rough drafts to clean up of the first three books. (Got hooked on writing these a couple years ago to blow off steam, now I have a pretty large body of raw materials to try and salvage something useful from.) Half a dozen languages appear in them, most of which are confined to a single book, so I'm disinclined to offer a specific notation for each. I still think that's a neat idea, though.
People never use more than a local and a foreign per scene, as I believe it would be distracting. I always note what they're swapping in and out of at the start of a section, and then had been relying on <> to denote the change for the rest of it.
I'm personally not that hot on using italics for this, so I'll probably see how chevrons look. They're already pretty close to what I was doing, and only require Ctrl+F to sneak in.
I also marked Zozo best answer, for this:
If you use it too frequently, it won't be subtle—will, in fact, be an irritating distraction. There are probably better ways to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish than loading down your manuscript with linguistic metadata.
I'll take a look and probably pare down the number of scenes where I use this. I have spots where it's probably a bit gratuitous.
Thanks again, all. I am going to leave this open in case anybody else wants to chime in with a brilliant new idea, but either way, I appreciate all your responses.
(Also, thanks for the example, FAMOUS MONSTER. That was genius.)
posted by mordax at 5:38 PM on July 28, 2011
To clarify a little: no Earth languages appear anywhere in this. It's a world hopping pulp story, and I have rough drafts to clean up of the first three books. (Got hooked on writing these a couple years ago to blow off steam, now I have a pretty large body of raw materials to try and salvage something useful from.) Half a dozen languages appear in them, most of which are confined to a single book, so I'm disinclined to offer a specific notation for each. I still think that's a neat idea, though.
People never use more than a local and a foreign per scene, as I believe it would be distracting. I always note what they're swapping in and out of at the start of a section, and then had been relying on <> to denote the change for the rest of it.
I'm personally not that hot on using italics for this, so I'll probably see how chevrons look. They're already pretty close to what I was doing, and only require Ctrl+F to sneak in.
I also marked Zozo best answer, for this:
If you use it too frequently, it won't be subtle—will, in fact, be an irritating distraction. There are probably better ways to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish than loading down your manuscript with linguistic metadata.
I'll take a look and probably pare down the number of scenes where I use this. I have spots where it's probably a bit gratuitous.
Thanks again, all. I am going to leave this open in case anybody else wants to chime in with a brilliant new idea, but either way, I appreciate all your responses.
(Also, thanks for the example, FAMOUS MONSTER. That was genius.)
posted by mordax at 5:38 PM on July 28, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by madcaptenor at 8:59 AM on July 28, 2011