Please help us figure out why she's suddenly afraid of places that weren't a problem before. But before "what", exactly?
July 13, 2011 8:28 AM Subscribe
Why would a 7 month old puppy suddenly develop a fear of her dedicated pee spots in our yard?
Belle is a wonderful, sweet, well-adjusted, happy, energetic, friendly, and fully housebroken 7 month old Husky. It's been pretty neat-- every single behavioral problem we had with her, as well as every concern I had (and asked previous questions about) has resolved itself with a combination of consistent training on our part and well, her growing up.
That said, about a month ago she suddenly became utterly terrified of the small patch in the front of our house where she's allowed to pee and poop. There is only one other possible potty spot (in our backyard) at our house, and so we started to take her there instead, through the garage. This worked fine until suddenly it didn't. Now she will pee in the garage in a desperate attempt to not have to go outside, she physically refuses to go into the garage itself most of the time, and we're going slightly crazy with frustration. From what I've read, she's in the beginning of the second fear imprint stage, but if I can't figure out what's scaring her, I can't make it better!
Some potential factors and things I've tried:
-- When she suddenly became afraid of the spot in front, I thought it might have to do with the "newness" of the feeling of wet grass, as it had rained for the first time (in her life) the day before, and search results turned up a common dislike among puppies of that feeling. I poured buckets of dry dirt onto the spot to see if that helped. Nothing. Huskies are known for their "sit-and-refuse-to-move" tactics, and she combines this with staring me directly in the eyes, with either quiet desperation or a pleading look, depending on how you wish to anthropomorphize.
-- The two spots are along the same neighbors' fence-- the previous owners had two large and loud dogs that had scared Belle a bit as a young puppy but didn't seem to bother her as much as she got a bit older. That family moved away and the family in there now has a small-breed dog that doesn't much seem to register on Belle's radar. I thought that perhaps the previous large dogs had marked the fence and that was the problem, only it doesn't make sense, because for a brief period she used both spots (front and back) without an issue.
-- When moving the whole operation to the backyard, I decided that since it was our last option, I was going to throw treats at the problem-- she quickly understood that if she went out back and peed or pooped, she'd get a (high value) treat once we got back inside. We were both pleased with this arrangement until the sudden (as yet unexplained) fear of the backyard spot.
-- There is a chance that the fear of the backyard spot had to do with the thick mud that was created from some intense downpours. The reason for the mud is that we had to put in a backyard this year with 20 truckloads of dirt, that we're currently seeding (hence the limited potty spots). The grass in that spot hasn't come in at all (and may not this year), and so perhaps it was the feel of the clay-heavy mud that was the problem. My vet did say that at this age puppies can be dealing with texture-aversion, so my husband went up to the local sod farm to pick up some odds and ends which I then used to cover the mud in about 12 sq. ft. outside of the door to the backyard. I then lured her out there with a treat so she could see/feel the new setup. Still, though, both last night and this morning she peed in the garage and pulled desperately in the opposite direction of the door, terrified.
-- It's probably relevant to note that she had no such fears develop at her other main pee/poop spots (outside the building at our business and at the dog park).
I need some other ideas-- obviously I'm missing something. What I could use is a better sense of what she's experiencing (sort of like what Temple Grandin taught us about cattle). Or maybe some personal experiences. Or any educated guesses. Because with my limited, internet-based education on a dog's perspective, I'm lost-- and frustrated!
Belle is a wonderful, sweet, well-adjusted, happy, energetic, friendly, and fully housebroken 7 month old Husky. It's been pretty neat-- every single behavioral problem we had with her, as well as every concern I had (and asked previous questions about) has resolved itself with a combination of consistent training on our part and well, her growing up.
That said, about a month ago she suddenly became utterly terrified of the small patch in the front of our house where she's allowed to pee and poop. There is only one other possible potty spot (in our backyard) at our house, and so we started to take her there instead, through the garage. This worked fine until suddenly it didn't. Now she will pee in the garage in a desperate attempt to not have to go outside, she physically refuses to go into the garage itself most of the time, and we're going slightly crazy with frustration. From what I've read, she's in the beginning of the second fear imprint stage, but if I can't figure out what's scaring her, I can't make it better!
Some potential factors and things I've tried:
-- When she suddenly became afraid of the spot in front, I thought it might have to do with the "newness" of the feeling of wet grass, as it had rained for the first time (in her life) the day before, and search results turned up a common dislike among puppies of that feeling. I poured buckets of dry dirt onto the spot to see if that helped. Nothing. Huskies are known for their "sit-and-refuse-to-move" tactics, and she combines this with staring me directly in the eyes, with either quiet desperation or a pleading look, depending on how you wish to anthropomorphize.
-- The two spots are along the same neighbors' fence-- the previous owners had two large and loud dogs that had scared Belle a bit as a young puppy but didn't seem to bother her as much as she got a bit older. That family moved away and the family in there now has a small-breed dog that doesn't much seem to register on Belle's radar. I thought that perhaps the previous large dogs had marked the fence and that was the problem, only it doesn't make sense, because for a brief period she used both spots (front and back) without an issue.
-- When moving the whole operation to the backyard, I decided that since it was our last option, I was going to throw treats at the problem-- she quickly understood that if she went out back and peed or pooped, she'd get a (high value) treat once we got back inside. We were both pleased with this arrangement until the sudden (as yet unexplained) fear of the backyard spot.
-- There is a chance that the fear of the backyard spot had to do with the thick mud that was created from some intense downpours. The reason for the mud is that we had to put in a backyard this year with 20 truckloads of dirt, that we're currently seeding (hence the limited potty spots). The grass in that spot hasn't come in at all (and may not this year), and so perhaps it was the feel of the clay-heavy mud that was the problem. My vet did say that at this age puppies can be dealing with texture-aversion, so my husband went up to the local sod farm to pick up some odds and ends which I then used to cover the mud in about 12 sq. ft. outside of the door to the backyard. I then lured her out there with a treat so she could see/feel the new setup. Still, though, both last night and this morning she peed in the garage and pulled desperately in the opposite direction of the door, terrified.
-- It's probably relevant to note that she had no such fears develop at her other main pee/poop spots (outside the building at our business and at the dog park).
I need some other ideas-- obviously I'm missing something. What I could use is a better sense of what she's experiencing (sort of like what Temple Grandin taught us about cattle). Or maybe some personal experiences. Or any educated guesses. Because with my limited, internet-based education on a dog's perspective, I'm lost-- and frustrated!
Response by poster: There are certainly larger creatures in the area (bears, deer, coyotes), but our house is tucked away in a cul-de-sac in the middle of a new residential area where there just haven't been any sightings, not even along the edges of the neighborhood, of such wildlife. It's an excellent theory, but it's just not likely in this case.
posted by mireille at 8:38 AM on July 13, 2011
posted by mireille at 8:38 AM on July 13, 2011
just a thought...perhaps she has a UTI and is avoiding urinating because it hurts?
not horribly likely, since usually the symptoms are peeing frequently and in small amounts due to the irritation. it's always good to rule out a medical issue. also, your vet can recommend a behaviorist you could consult with.
sounds likely that she is scared of a smell out there, or something scary happened while she was out there and now she associates the area with the trauma.
posted by virginia_clemm at 8:48 AM on July 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
not horribly likely, since usually the symptoms are peeing frequently and in small amounts due to the irritation. it's always good to rule out a medical issue. also, your vet can recommend a behaviorist you could consult with.
sounds likely that she is scared of a smell out there, or something scary happened while she was out there and now she associates the area with the trauma.
posted by virginia_clemm at 8:48 AM on July 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
I've had my dog for 4 years and she hates to pee right in the yard. She won't do it unless I've walked her a reasonable distance away. I don't know whether she is just trying to force me to take her on a real walk, or if she wants to mark her territory somewhere further away, or maybe doesn't want to leave evidence that she lives right there? (i don't know how it is with female dogs really, i only had male before her.) But it's definitely more stubbornness than fear. She just seems to like the opportunity to sniff out the exact place where she wants to pee, rather than allowing me to force her to do it where I make her. I've long ago given up on having a dog who will do her biz in the yard. I have to walk her. A block's enough to get the job done though, so it's not too bad.
posted by GastrocNemesis at 8:50 AM on July 13, 2011
posted by GastrocNemesis at 8:50 AM on July 13, 2011
My guess is along the UTI thing and peeing in those spots has been painful. I'd get her looked at, our cats went through something similar.
posted by iamabot at 9:33 AM on July 13, 2011
posted by iamabot at 9:33 AM on July 13, 2011
My dog refuses to step foot on his pee spots when the grass is wet. Although he's also abandoned former pee spots and refuses to pee there anymore. My guess is something else marked there and he doesn't want to piss some larger, more dominant animal off.
posted by whalebreath at 9:51 AM on July 13, 2011
posted by whalebreath at 9:51 AM on July 13, 2011
Response by poster: I don't think it's a UTI-- she had one at 12 weeks for a day or two and she couldn't hold it in-- she just peed a little each time, and frequently. She's fine away from the house, so I'm pretty sure it's not health-related, though I'll call my vet and see if she thinks I should bring her in.
Based on the answers from GastrocNemesis and whalebreath, I guess I have to give in and take her down the street-- I didn't think it was a good idea to let her determine when and where she went, but it looks like I'm going to lose this battle. Once the ground is covered in snow she can have free reign of the whole yard, and that should solve the problem for the winter at any rate. Good thing, too, because housebreaking a puppy (15-ish times a day) in -30 to -40 degrees was brutal. Once spring rolls around next year we'll put in a proper dog run and that should solve it for good-- plus we'll be getting her a friend, so that should make life better for everyone!
posted by mireille at 10:07 AM on July 13, 2011
Based on the answers from GastrocNemesis and whalebreath, I guess I have to give in and take her down the street-- I didn't think it was a good idea to let her determine when and where she went, but it looks like I'm going to lose this battle. Once the ground is covered in snow she can have free reign of the whole yard, and that should solve the problem for the winter at any rate. Good thing, too, because housebreaking a puppy (15-ish times a day) in -30 to -40 degrees was brutal. Once spring rolls around next year we'll put in a proper dog run and that should solve it for good-- plus we'll be getting her a friend, so that should make life better for everyone!
posted by mireille at 10:07 AM on July 13, 2011
If her issue is a smell, chances are good it'll fade. Let her go somewhere else for a few days, and than go back and try again.
I think dogs are kind of wired to pee over other dogs' pee and *not* to soak a small area with only their own urine. That may be part of the problem.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:33 AM on July 13, 2011
I think dogs are kind of wired to pee over other dogs' pee and *not* to soak a small area with only their own urine. That may be part of the problem.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:33 AM on July 13, 2011
I think that Lyn Never is right - this is a urine marking behavior. I've had a similar problem with my dog, who is male and likes to urine mark. He'll happily pee on the same spots in the backyard for a few days, but then he gets to a point where he will just sniff the spot and then stare at me as if to say, "Idiot human, can't you see that this spot is already marked as mine? I need to go somewhere else!"
I know that people usually say that female dogs don't urine mark, but I don't think this is completely true. I often see female dogs at the dog park sniffing around until they find the patch where all the other dogs have peed, and then peeing right over The Spot. So perhaps they aren't as driven about urine marking as male dogs, but I believe that female dogs still do this.
Here's the thing, though - you may still want to work with your dog on this, because it's very helpful to be able to have her urinate on cue in a place you choose, and not learn that balking and pulling away are good ways to get what she wants. If you do want to try to address it, here are some things that I did with my dog.
First, you have to have a bit of a war of the wills: she has to urinate in the spot you choose, otherwise she goes back inside. She will have a lot of resistance to this at first, because so far she is successfully training you that if she refuses she can pee somewhere else.
Second, take the reward outside. Currently you are giving her the treat when she gets back inside, which means that you are rewarding her for going inside, not for urinating. Give the reward right after she urinates.
Third, use the Premack principle and reward her with what she really wants, which (I think) is to urine mark the neighborhood: if she pees (even a little) in the right spot, then take her on a walk and let her urinate in some other places as well.
Fourth, have some other dogs come over and pee on her spot. This will make it attractive for her to urine mark again, because she has something to cover up.
posted by medusa at 11:48 AM on July 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know that people usually say that female dogs don't urine mark, but I don't think this is completely true. I often see female dogs at the dog park sniffing around until they find the patch where all the other dogs have peed, and then peeing right over The Spot. So perhaps they aren't as driven about urine marking as male dogs, but I believe that female dogs still do this.
Here's the thing, though - you may still want to work with your dog on this, because it's very helpful to be able to have her urinate on cue in a place you choose, and not learn that balking and pulling away are good ways to get what she wants. If you do want to try to address it, here are some things that I did with my dog.
First, you have to have a bit of a war of the wills: she has to urinate in the spot you choose, otherwise she goes back inside. She will have a lot of resistance to this at first, because so far she is successfully training you that if she refuses she can pee somewhere else.
Second, take the reward outside. Currently you are giving her the treat when she gets back inside, which means that you are rewarding her for going inside, not for urinating. Give the reward right after she urinates.
Third, use the Premack principle and reward her with what she really wants, which (I think) is to urine mark the neighborhood: if she pees (even a little) in the right spot, then take her on a walk and let her urinate in some other places as well.
Fourth, have some other dogs come over and pee on her spot. This will make it attractive for her to urine mark again, because she has something to cover up.
posted by medusa at 11:48 AM on July 13, 2011 [1 favorite]
Fleas lay their eggs in moist spots. They chose my previous cat's litter box, either from the proximity when she peed, or because they could smell the urine (and evolved to pick pee spots as good places for their children to catch a ride). Long story short, when she'd squat, the new fleas would jump onto the big pink circle of unprotected flesh and BITE.
She began suddenly going anywhere but there (understandably). I tried to restrict her to the box when it was time for business, and discovered the poor dear's dilemma. OOOOH! :`-(
So, could be fleas. Spraying the area with a bleach solution will kill the little bastards (and everything else). Diazinon is the off-the-shelf solution, and IIRC is petsafe.
posted by IAmBroom at 5:47 PM on July 13, 2011
She began suddenly going anywhere but there (understandably). I tried to restrict her to the box when it was time for business, and discovered the poor dear's dilemma. OOOOH! :`-(
So, could be fleas. Spraying the area with a bleach solution will kill the little bastards (and everything else). Diazinon is the off-the-shelf solution, and IIRC is petsafe.
posted by IAmBroom at 5:47 PM on July 13, 2011
Maybe she got stung by a yellow jacket while peeing and has decided the sting is related to taking a squirt in her old spots? Just a guess.
posted by bkeene12 at 8:20 PM on July 13, 2011
posted by bkeene12 at 8:20 PM on July 13, 2011
A cat or possum or similar animal could have peed there. If she has no idea of her relative formidability as compared to a cat, she could be scared of it.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:29 AM on July 14, 2011
posted by aeschenkarnos at 3:29 AM on July 14, 2011
UTI's can be resistant; I'd take her in and have her screened. She could have another one that's just presenting differently from the first. As she had a problem so early, you know she's predisposed. I too have had cats (and dogs!) with similar behavior. The first thing to take care of when dealing with animal behavior issues is to make sure there's not an underlying physical cause.
Having said that, my otherwise obedient lovely shepherd mix dog wouldn't pee in her home territory; she really really wanted to keep her home clean. "Home" included the yard. Since we live in a hurricane zone, however, we weren't always able to have the luxury of a long walk... sometimes you need to just zip outside and get business done. What I did was put her urination on voice command. This could be useful for when your puppy's a bit older.
Short version: every time she urinated, I'd follow with the command "Do business" and praise her. Eventually moved command to during urination, then shifted to before. Then mixed it up. Finally we got to the point where she'd go on command (in addition to her own will). It worked a treat for when she HAD to go in the yard, because we were in the hurricane's eye and she had two minutes to get everything done!
posted by theplotchickens at 5:04 AM on July 14, 2011
Having said that, my otherwise obedient lovely shepherd mix dog wouldn't pee in her home territory; she really really wanted to keep her home clean. "Home" included the yard. Since we live in a hurricane zone, however, we weren't always able to have the luxury of a long walk... sometimes you need to just zip outside and get business done. What I did was put her urination on voice command. This could be useful for when your puppy's a bit older.
Short version: every time she urinated, I'd follow with the command "Do business" and praise her. Eventually moved command to during urination, then shifted to before. Then mixed it up. Finally we got to the point where she'd go on command (in addition to her own will). It worked a treat for when she HAD to go in the yard, because we were in the hurricane's eye and she had two minutes to get everything done!
posted by theplotchickens at 5:04 AM on July 14, 2011
My female is a urine marker, so she really, really, really wants walks for doing her business, though she'll go outside in a pinch. She didn't mark when we first got her as a rescue – she'd just urinate in one big stream as we generally expect from female dogs, but after she became more confident she turned into a mad marker and never looked back!
She's also prone to UTIs (and I expect that her holding-the-pee-so-I-can-mark-1000-places doesn't help that), so whenever I see any kind of behavior change around urinating, I keep my eye on the situation.
Also, I think IAmBroom has a good point; when my girl does go outside at home, she doesn't choose the same spot; maybe the wet spot/flea thing is one reason dogs will resist going in the same spot over and over.
posted by taz at 8:28 AM on July 16, 2011
She's also prone to UTIs (and I expect that her holding-the-pee-so-I-can-mark-1000-places doesn't help that), so whenever I see any kind of behavior change around urinating, I keep my eye on the situation.
Also, I think IAmBroom has a good point; when my girl does go outside at home, she doesn't choose the same spot; maybe the wet spot/flea thing is one reason dogs will resist going in the same spot over and over.
posted by taz at 8:28 AM on July 16, 2011
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posted by bricoleur at 8:32 AM on July 13, 2011