A Fair Housing Quandary
June 11, 2011 11:13 AM Subscribe
How can we work through the illegal treatment of our apartment complex?
I'm sorry this is so long. There are so many relevant details.
Our A/V is in a little closet with the A/C of our next door neighbors, three roommates who are all extremely heavy smokers. The closet is unbearably smoky, and our A/C is pulling this smoke into our apartment. This triggers my Trigeminal Neuralgia, considered the most painful condition known to medicine and "The Suicide Disease." My husband is also very bothered by the smoke and we’ve tried everything we can, including expensive air purifiers with carbon filters. One of our neighbors wanted one of our iPods and said she was trying to cut down so we made a trade in exchange for a 10% reduction. This has reduced the amount of smoke seeping through the walls and outlets but with the A/C on more now that has increased. During the very hot spell last week we spent two days and nights in a local hotel. We can’t sleep outside because other neighbors live on their decks and smoke constantly, also hacking and spitting and throwing things and general carrying on ’til long after 1:00 in the morning. My husband spoke with them and explained my condition but it hasn't helped.
Our complex had been soliciting our signatures on a lease renewal for weeks while we tried to get them to do something about either situation before signing. They called and we gave them every details of the situation and what we’ve tried. They sent the lease up. We still had four weeks before the month’s notice. We thought it was the only leverage we had. It wasn’t working. They weren’t taking us seriously. Then we read online that my new disability status qualifies us for a Fair Housing accommodation. We spoke with someone who knows about these things and he told us to tell them that we’ve done everything we can and unless they do something to significantly improve the situation we would have no choice but to file a Fair Housing Complaint. We did this, the leasing agent cut off the conversation abruptly, and three days later we received a notice indicating they’re not renewing our lease, which now expires at the end of this month.
The expert we spoke with agrees that this is blatant retaliation and has helped us file Fair Housing and Civil Rights complaints. In the meantime, we’re been looking at all the housing we can afford in a hundred mile radius. We’ve put a deposit on something that’s not available until early August. Today, after running into a neighbor in the parking lot, my husband learned that complex reps are telling other tenants that we are chronic complainers. Isn’t this against the law? Should we also consider a HIPA complaint? My husband was so upset that he went to the office and confronted the agent named by our neighbor. The agent denied it with a smile on his face.
Naturally we’ve pretty stressed by all of this. I’m going to Mayo Clinic next week for an important surgical appointment. My husband diagnosed last year with dementia and has a hard time with planning and logistics, while while the physical demands of moving might be impossible for me. We’ll have to hire much help in addition to the usual help that friends give and what will happen if we need to be here until August, assuming we can find a way through the smoke. Ultimately the complex may have to pay for some of this but who knows how long all of that will take and how much will be required of us in the meantime. The expert we've spoken with works for a non-profit and is limited as to how much help he can offer. We should be building pleasant memories to sustain us if my husband's condition worsens but the stress is tearing us apart, individually and as a couple.
Has anyone encountered anything like this personally or helped someone who has? We're about to ask the Fair Housing people to recommend an attorney but we wonder if we'll have to pay him/her. We’d appreciate any advice about any part of it. We both feel strongly about the need to take a stand here.
I'm sorry this is so long. There are so many relevant details.
Our A/V is in a little closet with the A/C of our next door neighbors, three roommates who are all extremely heavy smokers. The closet is unbearably smoky, and our A/C is pulling this smoke into our apartment. This triggers my Trigeminal Neuralgia, considered the most painful condition known to medicine and "The Suicide Disease." My husband is also very bothered by the smoke and we’ve tried everything we can, including expensive air purifiers with carbon filters. One of our neighbors wanted one of our iPods and said she was trying to cut down so we made a trade in exchange for a 10% reduction. This has reduced the amount of smoke seeping through the walls and outlets but with the A/C on more now that has increased. During the very hot spell last week we spent two days and nights in a local hotel. We can’t sleep outside because other neighbors live on their decks and smoke constantly, also hacking and spitting and throwing things and general carrying on ’til long after 1:00 in the morning. My husband spoke with them and explained my condition but it hasn't helped.
Our complex had been soliciting our signatures on a lease renewal for weeks while we tried to get them to do something about either situation before signing. They called and we gave them every details of the situation and what we’ve tried. They sent the lease up. We still had four weeks before the month’s notice. We thought it was the only leverage we had. It wasn’t working. They weren’t taking us seriously. Then we read online that my new disability status qualifies us for a Fair Housing accommodation. We spoke with someone who knows about these things and he told us to tell them that we’ve done everything we can and unless they do something to significantly improve the situation we would have no choice but to file a Fair Housing Complaint. We did this, the leasing agent cut off the conversation abruptly, and three days later we received a notice indicating they’re not renewing our lease, which now expires at the end of this month.
The expert we spoke with agrees that this is blatant retaliation and has helped us file Fair Housing and Civil Rights complaints. In the meantime, we’re been looking at all the housing we can afford in a hundred mile radius. We’ve put a deposit on something that’s not available until early August. Today, after running into a neighbor in the parking lot, my husband learned that complex reps are telling other tenants that we are chronic complainers. Isn’t this against the law? Should we also consider a HIPA complaint? My husband was so upset that he went to the office and confronted the agent named by our neighbor. The agent denied it with a smile on his face.
Naturally we’ve pretty stressed by all of this. I’m going to Mayo Clinic next week for an important surgical appointment. My husband diagnosed last year with dementia and has a hard time with planning and logistics, while while the physical demands of moving might be impossible for me. We’ll have to hire much help in addition to the usual help that friends give and what will happen if we need to be here until August, assuming we can find a way through the smoke. Ultimately the complex may have to pay for some of this but who knows how long all of that will take and how much will be required of us in the meantime. The expert we've spoken with works for a non-profit and is limited as to how much help he can offer. We should be building pleasant memories to sustain us if my husband's condition worsens but the stress is tearing us apart, individually and as a couple.
Has anyone encountered anything like this personally or helped someone who has? We're about to ask the Fair Housing people to recommend an attorney but we wonder if we'll have to pay him/her. We’d appreciate any advice about any part of it. We both feel strongly about the need to take a stand here.
It's usually not illegal for people to smoke in their own apartments. If this causes you so much distress I would consider moving.
posted by dfriedman at 12:10 PM on June 11, 2011
posted by dfriedman at 12:10 PM on June 11, 2011
It seems like this might be the perfect opportunity to find a new apartment.
posted by LyndsayMW at 12:18 PM on June 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by LyndsayMW at 12:18 PM on June 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's difficult to advise you without knowing what state/territory you live in; perhaps you could email the moderators for an addition.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:19 PM on June 11, 2011
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:19 PM on June 11, 2011
I'm sorry, what I mean is that I don't think it is worth the fight to stay- maybe you can find a guest house or mother in law cottage with just one person to deal with instead of many.
posted by LyndsayMW at 12:22 PM on June 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by LyndsayMW at 12:22 PM on June 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
You're not being very clear here. I can see two options you may be looking at as "reasonable accommodation." One is a structural change to the building so that your home doesn't have smoke pouring in from adjoining apartments. That is arguably a reasonable accommodation, but one with which they may not be able to comply. The other option is that the complex become no smoking, which is a "fundamental change" and therefore not a reasonable accommodation.
If what you're really concerned about at this point is that your current lease expires 1 July and your new lease doesn't start until 1 August, I would frankly pay your rent 1 July with a letter telling them you will be out in 30 days. It will take them longer than 30 days to evict you, so you are not going to be homeless. Is that your real concern here?
Other than focusing on your upcoming medical appointment and move and what you need to get both of those things done, I would let this go. Not enough spoons, as guster says.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:37 PM on June 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
If what you're really concerned about at this point is that your current lease expires 1 July and your new lease doesn't start until 1 August, I would frankly pay your rent 1 July with a letter telling them you will be out in 30 days. It will take them longer than 30 days to evict you, so you are not going to be homeless. Is that your real concern here?
Other than focusing on your upcoming medical appointment and move and what you need to get both of those things done, I would let this go. Not enough spoons, as guster says.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:37 PM on June 11, 2011 [5 favorites]
One of our neighbors wanted one of our iPods and said she was trying to cut down so we made a trade in exchange for a 10% reduction.
Just to clarify this, do you mean your neighbor agreed to smoke 10% less in return for an iPod?
posted by jayder at 12:43 PM on June 11, 2011
Just to clarify this, do you mean your neighbor agreed to smoke 10% less in return for an iPod?
posted by jayder at 12:43 PM on June 11, 2011
HIPAA privacy protects your health information by preventing medical providers and the like from disclosing it. I'm not sure how a landlord disclosing the fact that you complain a lot would fit in there.
What do you want to get by making a stand? It sucks that neighbors are smoking and being loud in ways that add pain/stress/difficulty to your life, but is that really something your landlord has control over? And if you do get your landlord to renew your lease -- is that something you want, given that you're basically describing this place as unlivable?
I understand why you're pissed off, but fighting a losing fight with no end goal in mind doesn't seem likely to reduce your stress during this time.
posted by J. Wilson at 12:47 PM on June 11, 2011
What do you want to get by making a stand? It sucks that neighbors are smoking and being loud in ways that add pain/stress/difficulty to your life, but is that really something your landlord has control over? And if you do get your landlord to renew your lease -- is that something you want, given that you're basically describing this place as unlivable?
I understand why you're pissed off, but fighting a losing fight with no end goal in mind doesn't seem likely to reduce your stress during this time.
posted by J. Wilson at 12:47 PM on June 11, 2011
Mod note: From the OP:
We are in Michigan.posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 12:48 PM on June 11, 2011
Please don't treat this as a debate about smoking. People in power broke laws and I'm just asking for help responding to that.
People in power broke laws and I'm just asking for help responding to that.
Uh, what laws? You sound aggrieved; not every aggrieved person has a legal remedy.
posted by dfriedman at 12:55 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Uh, what laws? You sound aggrieved; not every aggrieved person has a legal remedy.
posted by dfriedman at 12:55 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Absolutely do not speculate in-thread about the identity of anonymous posters, please.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:12 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 1:12 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hi OP - I do recognize who you are from the details of your question, and you're not the Fig Newton guy but you're not anonymous. I won't out you here, but I am going to call you out on something. You have a LONG LONG history of complaining to AskMe about your housing situations and I think the real answer for you is a house, and to stop using AskMe when what you really need is a lawyer and/or the advice of your local tenant advocacy organization.
Get a lawyer to tell you if you have any case against the apartment management. Best scenario is that you get hotel expenses covered until you can move in August. But in the long term, please consider that you sound like you're not the kind of couple who should be living in multi-family buildings. There is nothing wrong with that and I don't say it with judgement. You sound like you have perfectly good reasons for expecting more peace and quiet than the average person, but I think it's time to accept that means no apartment buildings. If you want silence, no smoke or chemicals, no presence of children, etc. then you need to prioritize that in your budget so you can rent a house. It might be a stretch financially, but compared to the drama that apartment living is causing for you, it will be money well spent.
AskMe can not help you any more with this, really. You've gotten many good general bits of advice in the past and your situation sounds like it has not improved. I'm glad you're considering moving, finally. That's great. Start looking at houses and come back to AskMe when you have a NEW question that we might be able to help with.
posted by slow graffiti at 1:13 PM on June 11, 2011 [29 favorites]
Get a lawyer to tell you if you have any case against the apartment management. Best scenario is that you get hotel expenses covered until you can move in August. But in the long term, please consider that you sound like you're not the kind of couple who should be living in multi-family buildings. There is nothing wrong with that and I don't say it with judgement. You sound like you have perfectly good reasons for expecting more peace and quiet than the average person, but I think it's time to accept that means no apartment buildings. If you want silence, no smoke or chemicals, no presence of children, etc. then you need to prioritize that in your budget so you can rent a house. It might be a stretch financially, but compared to the drama that apartment living is causing for you, it will be money well spent.
AskMe can not help you any more with this, really. You've gotten many good general bits of advice in the past and your situation sounds like it has not improved. I'm glad you're considering moving, finally. That's great. Start looking at houses and come back to AskMe when you have a NEW question that we might be able to help with.
posted by slow graffiti at 1:13 PM on June 11, 2011 [29 favorites]
People in power broke laws and I'm just asking for help responding to that.
That's begging the question; Unless you're a lawyer (and possibly even a lawyer specializing in housing and disability law) you can't be sure any laws are being broken. That's why the answer to your question is to consult an attorney.
We're about to ask the Fair Housing people to recommend an attorney
Which you seem to be about to do. So that's good. I'm not sure what other advice you might be looking for? Continue with your plan to consult an attorney.
But my real advice is to move. It's going to be easier, faster, and probably cheaper
posted by Justinian at 1:29 PM on June 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
That's begging the question; Unless you're a lawyer (and possibly even a lawyer specializing in housing and disability law) you can't be sure any laws are being broken. That's why the answer to your question is to consult an attorney.
We're about to ask the Fair Housing people to recommend an attorney
Which you seem to be about to do. So that's good. I'm not sure what other advice you might be looking for? Continue with your plan to consult an attorney.
But my real advice is to move. It's going to be easier, faster, and probably cheaper
posted by Justinian at 1:29 PM on June 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
my husband learned that complex reps are telling other tenants that we are chronic complainers. Isn’t this against the law? Should we also consider a HIPA complaint?
Sorry, this is so off base, it's almost laughable. ANYONE can call ANYONE a "chronic complainer," it's not against any laws or federal regulations. It's a matter of opinion, it's incredibly vague, it breaches no privacy rights (health related or otherwise). You really need to direct your efforts toward something productive rather than focusing on whether this agent's statement is actionable. It's not. You're wasting your time pursuing that.
posted by jayder at 1:36 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
Sorry, this is so off base, it's almost laughable. ANYONE can call ANYONE a "chronic complainer," it's not against any laws or federal regulations. It's a matter of opinion, it's incredibly vague, it breaches no privacy rights (health related or otherwise). You really need to direct your efforts toward something productive rather than focusing on whether this agent's statement is actionable. It's not. You're wasting your time pursuing that.
posted by jayder at 1:36 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
You need to move. Telling people you are chronic complainers is not illegal.
posted by fifilaru at 1:42 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by fifilaru at 1:42 PM on June 11, 2011 [2 favorites]
>>Please don't treat this as a debate about smoking. People in power broke laws and I'm just asking for help responding to that.
Laypersons often don't know if laws have been broken. Lawyers often don't know if laws have been broken.
Based solely on this post, I doubt anyone can say whether laws have been broken. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is your Fair Housing Complaint followed by them declining to renew your lease. You've already spoken with Fair Housing people about this incident, and they're helping you file additional complaints and are referring you to an attorney, it sounds like (unclear). Good -- those are the right things to do.
There's really nothing AskMe can do for you here other than to suggest consulting an attorney and to advise moving. There may or may not be free counsel available based on your income and the type of complaint; the Fair Housing people will be able to tell you more. Keep in mind that even if you win, that may not pay out until down the line, and you're likely going to incur and be responsible for your own moving costs, etc. in the interim.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:39 PM on June 11, 2011
Laypersons often don't know if laws have been broken. Lawyers often don't know if laws have been broken.
Based solely on this post, I doubt anyone can say whether laws have been broken. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is your Fair Housing Complaint followed by them declining to renew your lease. You've already spoken with Fair Housing people about this incident, and they're helping you file additional complaints and are referring you to an attorney, it sounds like (unclear). Good -- those are the right things to do.
There's really nothing AskMe can do for you here other than to suggest consulting an attorney and to advise moving. There may or may not be free counsel available based on your income and the type of complaint; the Fair Housing people will be able to tell you more. Keep in mind that even if you win, that may not pay out until down the line, and you're likely going to incur and be responsible for your own moving costs, etc. in the interim.
posted by J. Wilson at 2:39 PM on June 11, 2011
Should we also consider a HIPA complaint?
Based on what? Not every person or entity is bound by HIPAA; if a neighbor or your landlord told someone "Anonymous has [medical condition]," they're not in violation of HIPAA because they're not in a category to be bound by that - they are not your medical provider, insurance company, or a health care clearinghouse. More here.
posted by rtha at 2:42 PM on June 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
Based on what? Not every person or entity is bound by HIPAA; if a neighbor or your landlord told someone "Anonymous has [medical condition]," they're not in violation of HIPAA because they're not in a category to be bound by that - they are not your medical provider, insurance company, or a health care clearinghouse. More here.
posted by rtha at 2:42 PM on June 11, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's not clear what your goal is here. If it's to stay in the apt and force the landlord to accommodate your disability, DarlingBri has pointed out why that may not be legally required. But assuming for the sake of argument that your landlord is legally required to make structural changes to the premises (or whatever you asked for), that will take months, if not years, to happen. In the meantime, it sounds like you can't live there. If you're just looking for help with moving expenses, a letter from a lawyer might get them to cough up some money to make you go away (and in exchange for withdrawing your complaint), or it might not. If they dig in their heels, again you're looking at months to years before you reach a resolution. Enforcing your rights using the legal system (or the regulatory complaint process) is not fast.
With that in mind, you may want to put your complaint on the back burner (without withdrawing it) while you move, and focus on your health. If they violated the Fair Housing Act, maybe you'll get awarded some damages somewhere down the line.
posted by Mavri at 3:35 PM on June 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
With that in mind, you may want to put your complaint on the back burner (without withdrawing it) while you move, and focus on your health. If they violated the Fair Housing Act, maybe you'll get awarded some damages somewhere down the line.
posted by Mavri at 3:35 PM on June 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
We're about to ask the Fair Housing people to recommend an attorney but we wonder if we'll have to pay him/her.
IANAL, but if HUD determines that your county or state housing agencies have the same powers to investigate or enforce the Fair Housing Act, your complaint will be referred to them. If HUD takes on your complaint, HUD lawyers will litigate your case at the administrative hearing; if the case goes to federal court, the Attorney General will file suit on your behalf. Either will not incur any personal costs. You may have been referred to your local Legal Aid office, and if you/your case are eligible for their services, you won't have to pay attorney's fees, though you may be asked to pay for some court costs or related expenses.
I think it's fine to seek legal advice, but you should, as has been pointed out above, be clear about what you hope to achieve through litigation.
posted by evoque at 4:01 PM on June 11, 2011
IANAL, but if HUD determines that your county or state housing agencies have the same powers to investigate or enforce the Fair Housing Act, your complaint will be referred to them. If HUD takes on your complaint, HUD lawyers will litigate your case at the administrative hearing; if the case goes to federal court, the Attorney General will file suit on your behalf. Either will not incur any personal costs. You may have been referred to your local Legal Aid office, and if you/your case are eligible for their services, you won't have to pay attorney's fees, though you may be asked to pay for some court costs or related expenses.
I think it's fine to seek legal advice, but you should, as has been pointed out above, be clear about what you hope to achieve through litigation.
posted by evoque at 4:01 PM on June 11, 2011
If i were you, I would tackle this as two completely separate issues. You need to find move to a more appropriate place in as low-stress and pleasant way as possible. Hinging your happiness with this on whatever happens with your soon-to-be former landlord will do you no favors, I think.
A lawyer can figure out whether you have a case, but if you do, remember that money never truly compensates for frustration and pain (though it sure as hell helps.) But I think there's no better way to keep oneself unhappy than to focus on being owed something.
posted by desuetude at 4:03 PM on June 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
A lawyer can figure out whether you have a case, but if you do, remember that money never truly compensates for frustration and pain (though it sure as hell helps.) But I think there's no better way to keep oneself unhappy than to focus on being owed something.
posted by desuetude at 4:03 PM on June 11, 2011 [4 favorites]
What do you want? I'm not sure that you know that right now, but what's your ideal result here? There are a couple possibilities that I'm seeing in your comment:
Personally, I'd cut my losses and get out, so that you can make the most of the time you have and avoid further stress and drama.
posted by zachlipton at 6:59 PM on June 11, 2011
- Punish your landlord for these wrongs against you
- Stay in your current apartment for another year or more, but force your landlord to make your AC separate from the others at no cost to you.
- Stay in your current apartment for another year or more, but force your landlord to make everyone else in the complex stop smoking.
- Make your landlord pay to help you move
- Something else entirely
Personally, I'd cut my losses and get out, so that you can make the most of the time you have and avoid further stress and drama.
posted by zachlipton at 6:59 PM on June 11, 2011
Also, please remember that your desire to "take a stand here" does not negate your need to have a suitable place to live now and in the future. Your current place is obviously unsuitable. Even if your apartment could be made suitable for you and you manage to force your landlord to do it out of his own pocket (neither are by no means certain), it's not going to happen anytime soon. You're also unlikely to enjoy a very good relationship with your landlord in the future. In other words, you need to move someplace that will better suit your needs, as difficult as that may be.
It may well be that you have a strong case against the complex management for fair housing retaliation and possibly for other matters, but that is really irrelevant to your current need for suitable housing. The appropriate government agencies by in large will fight for you within the limits of the law when it comes to your retaliation claim, but that process will take some time. In the end, they might be able to get you some money, which could help pay the bills and give you a sense that justice has been done, but they can't get take away your pain or give you more time with your husband before his condition progresses. Take care of your immediate needs now and let the experts pursue justice on your behalf in the long run.
You might want to ask the non-profit you're working with or other organizations in the community if there are any resources available to help seniors with disabilities move and get settled in their new homes. I'd be asking about a social worker or housing advocate who works with people with disabilities. They might be able to coordinate some volunteers to help with the physical labor or have other ways to help and reduce expenses. If you're involved with any religious or community groups, you could ask them whether they have any volunteers.
posted by zachlipton at 8:22 PM on June 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
It may well be that you have a strong case against the complex management for fair housing retaliation and possibly for other matters, but that is really irrelevant to your current need for suitable housing. The appropriate government agencies by in large will fight for you within the limits of the law when it comes to your retaliation claim, but that process will take some time. In the end, they might be able to get you some money, which could help pay the bills and give you a sense that justice has been done, but they can't get take away your pain or give you more time with your husband before his condition progresses. Take care of your immediate needs now and let the experts pursue justice on your behalf in the long run.
You might want to ask the non-profit you're working with or other organizations in the community if there are any resources available to help seniors with disabilities move and get settled in their new homes. I'd be asking about a social worker or housing advocate who works with people with disabilities. They might be able to coordinate some volunteers to help with the physical labor or have other ways to help and reduce expenses. If you're involved with any religious or community groups, you could ask them whether they have any volunteers.
posted by zachlipton at 8:22 PM on June 11, 2011 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I also have chronic (pot) smoking and loud neighbours whose smoke/noise is ofen infiltrating our apartment.
I know it sucks to get fucked around with and they've certainly violated your rights in this situation. But with so little energy (do you know the "spoon theory"?) and so few spoons to spare between you and your husband, consider letting this go. Move in August and make sure you don't have smoking neighbours. It's not worth the spoons it would cost.
And I'm really sorry that this is my advice. I'm all about fighting the power where possible. But the more years I spend chronically ill, the less fight I have in me.
posted by guster4lovers at 12:07 PM on June 11, 2011 [5 favorites]